"Clan_MacKay" <zona5@pcinternet.net> wrote in news:1132700045.387898.320830
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

David Jensen wrote:

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:23:40 GMT, in alt.atheism
Brian Henderson <BrianL.Henderson@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote in
<vah6o1pnmkt45pdn5phodac7usbepqsfmo@4ax.com>:

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:18:39 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:

But getting through the required appeals and offering a proper trial
costs much more.

Wrong, it isn't the REQUIRED appeals that cost the money, it's all the
silly trumped-up appeals, filed endlessly by the shyster lawyers to
avoid the death penalty, that costs money.

You may not take any of these appeals seriously, but the appellate
courts have and commissions who have looked into it, like the one in
Illinois, have. People have been exonerated from capital conviction, not
merely because they were not provided adequate counsel, not merely
because exculpatory evdidence was not made available, but even because
the prosecutors engaged in misconduct. Sadly, proponents of the death
penalty don't have a very good product to sell.

Just because you are against the Death Penalty does not make it "a bad
product to sell".

The Death Penalty would be a much more effective deterent to criminal
behaviour if it were used properly and expeditiously, keeping murders
and such in cells recieving free food, medical treatment, dental care,
education and such (all on your tax Dollar) so that at some day in the
future they can claim "I've seen God and he has forgiven me, I will not
Sin anymore!!" and then we are expected to release them?????

Let me see I either pay to terminate a Killer or I pay to keep him
living healthy and happy until he dies of natural cause??

I fail to see the difficulty in that choice.

You are missing a few facts.

The DP does not stop murder or any other crime. Since the DP is in-
effective, why do it? Death is an easy way out. If I were faced with life
in prison or the DP I would pick the DP every time. Why be tortured the
rest of one's life? End it and get it over with.

The argument could be made that only an insane person would commit murder
given the punishment.

What is the purpose of the penal system? To punish and/or remove the
undesireable people from society. Maybe Devils Island is a good option.

Having said all that, I personally oppose the DP. It really makes no
sense. The claim that it costs too much to keep the convicted alive
doesn't hold water. Check the costs of a reasonable investigation such as
investigating and tracking down a virus or worm creator for example. The
frequent flyer miles alone would make you choke. Investigations are very
costly but all too often these costs are hidden.

Historically, Americans have been a violent group and it continues to this
day. Is it possible that we are glorifying violence in the media thus
making it attractive?

For those Xtians that are in favor of the DP, where is the exception list
to "Thou shalt not kill"? I can't find it anywhere. I often hear in
response "But I am not killing that person". To which I say, "Yes you are.
I am too. Every taxpayer is guilty of killing someone."

Those that believe in god(s), heaven, etc. may have a tough time explaining
their lack of inaction to their god(s) when judgment day arrives.

pierce

"Clan_MacKay" <zona5@pcinternet.net> wrote in news:1132700045.387898.320830
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

David Jensen wrote:

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:23:40 GMT, in alt.atheism
Brian Henderson <BrianL.Henderson@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote in
<vah6o1pnmkt45pdn5phodac7usbepqsfmo@4ax.com>:

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:18:39 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:

But getting through the required appeals and offering a proper trial
costs much more.

Wrong, it isn't the REQUIRED appeals that cost the money, it's all the
silly trumped-up appeals, filed endlessly by the shyster lawyers to
avoid the death penalty, that costs money.

You may not take any of these appeals seriously, but the appellate
courts have and commissions who have looked into it, like the one in
Illinois, have. People have been exonerated from capital conviction, not
merely because they were not provided adequate counsel, not merely
because exculpatory evdidence was not made available, but even because
the prosecutors engaged in misconduct. Sadly, proponents of the death
penalty don't have a very good product to sell.

Just because you are against the Death Penalty does not make it "a bad
product to sell".

The Death Penalty would be a much more effective deterent to criminal
behaviour if it were used properly and expeditiously, keeping murders
and such in cells recieving free food, medical treatment, dental care,
education and such (all on your tax Dollar) so that at some day in the
future they can claim "I've seen God and he has forgiven me, I will not
Sin anymore!!" and then we are expected to release them?????

Let me see I either pay to terminate a Killer or I pay to keep him
living healthy and happy until he dies of natural cause??

I fail to see the difficulty in that choice.

You are missing a few facts.

The DP does not stop murder or any other crime. Since the DP is in-
effective, why do it? Death is an easy way out. If I were faced with life
in prison or the DP I would pick the DP every time. Why be tortured the
rest of one's life? End it and get it over with.

The argument could be made that only an insane person would commit murder
given the punishment.

What is the purpose of the penal system? To punish and/or remove the
undesireable people from society. Maybe Devils Island is a good option.

Having said all that, I personally oppose the DP. It really makes no
sense. The claim that it costs too much to keep the convicted alive
doesn't hold water. Check the costs of a reasonable investigation such as
investigating and tracking down a virus or worm creator for example. The
frequent flyer miles alone would make you choke. Investigations are very
costly but all too often these costs are hidden.

Historically, Americans have been a violent group and it continues to this
day. Is it possible that we are glorifying violence in the media thus
making it attractive?

For those Xtians that are in favor of the DP, where is the exception list
to "Thou shalt not kill"? I can't find it anywhere. I often hear in
response "But I am not killing that person". To which I say, "Yes you are.
I am too. Every taxpayer is guilty of killing someone."

Those that believe in god(s), heaven, etc. may have a tough time explaining
their lack of inaction to their god(s) when judgment day arrives.

pierce

Clan_MacKay wrote:

David Jensen wrote:

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:23:40 GMT, in alt.atheism
Brian Henderson <BrianL.Henderson@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote in
<vah6o1pnmkt45pdn5phodac7usbepqsfmo@4ax.com>:

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:18:39 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:

But getting through the required appeals and offering a proper
trial costs much more.

Wrong, it isn't the REQUIRED appeals that cost the money, it's all
the silly trumped-up appeals, filed endlessly by the shyster
lawyers to avoid the death penalty, that costs money.

You may not take any of these appeals seriously, but the appellate
courts have and commissions who have looked into it, like the one in
Illinois, have. People have been exonerated from capital conviction,
not merely because they were not provided adequate counsel, not
merely because exculpatory evdidence was not made available, but
even because the prosecutors engaged in misconduct. Sadly,
proponents of the death penalty don't have a very good product to
sell.

Just because you are against the Death Penalty does not make it "a bad
product to sell".

The Death Penalty would be a much more effective deterent to criminal
behaviour if it were used properly and expeditiously, keeping murders
and such in cells recieving free food, medical treatment, dental care,
education and such (all on your tax Dollar) so that at some day in the
future they can claim "I've seen God and he has forgiven me, I will
not Sin anymore!!" and then we are expected to release them?????

Let me see I either pay to terminate a Killer or I pay to keep him
living healthy and happy until he dies of natural cause??

I fail to see the difficulty in that choice.

A deputy I once worked with after being told "I pay your taxes" tossed him
two pennies and said "Here, I don't work for you today."
Granted that was a vast profit for the man and I doubt the money you "pay"
to kill somebody amounts to a penny.

But a move to one of the nations that agrees with you might be considered.
Not that you'll be able to find one that is an industrialized nation, but
Iran and Iraq are nice this time of year.

On 22 Nov 2005 14:54:05 -0800, in alt.atheism
"Clan_MacKay" <zona5@pcinternet.net> wrote in
<1132700045.387898.320830@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:

David Jensen wrote:

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:23:40 GMT, in alt.atheism
Brian Henderson <BrianL.Henderson@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote in
<vah6o1pnmkt45pdn5phodac7usbepqsfmo@4ax.com>:

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:18:39 -0600, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:

But getting through the required appeals and offering a proper trial
costs much more.

Wrong, it isn't the REQUIRED appeals that cost the money, it's all the
silly trumped-up appeals, filed endlessly by the shyster lawyers to
avoid the death penalty, that costs money.

You may not take any of these appeals seriously, but the appellate
courts have and commissions who have looked into it, like the one in
Illinois, have. People have been exonerated from capital conviction, not
merely because they were not provided adequate counsel, not merely
because exculpatory evdidence was not made available, but even because
the prosecutors engaged in misconduct. Sadly, proponents of the death
penalty don't have a very good product to sell.

Just because you are against the Death Penalty does not make it "a bad
product to sell".

The failure of the death penalty to insure that only guilty parties are
considered for it is what makes it a bad product.

The Death Penalty would be a much more effective deterent to criminal
behaviour if it were used properly and expeditiously, keeping murders
and such in cells recieving free food, medical treatment, dental care,
education and such (all on your tax Dollar) so that at some day in the
future they can claim "I've seen God and he has forgiven me, I will not
Sin anymore!!" and then we are expected to release them?????

How many people have been released because they claim to have been
saved? I was under the impression that it was a negligible number.

Let me see I either pay to terminate a Killer or I pay to keep him
living healthy and happy until he dies of natural cause??

You assume, incorrectly, that the person on death row was actually the
criminal responsible for it.

I fail to see the difficulty in that choice.

So you do.

kdmlives@hotmail.com wrote:

1) Most people found innocent after decades in jail are freed because
of new DNA evidence techniques. Well, we have those techniques now,
so we won't make those mistakes again.

2) If an innocent person is put to death, then someone either lied or
screwed up somewhere. Find that person, and put them to death, too.
(a just punishment- their lie or screwup resulted in the accused's
death, so they are guilty of murder.)

This shows the level of knowledge of those who oppose the death penalty.
These are the same ones who "just want the laws obeyed"

They have no real concept of the legal system they are talking about.

*Innocent * people are not put to death.
It is a fact of law that if found innocent you are released.

kdmlives@hotmail.com wrote:

1) Most people found innocent after decades in jail are freed because
of new DNA evidence techniques. Well, we have those techniques now,
so we won't make those mistakes again.

2) If an innocent person is put to death, then someone either lied or
screwed up somewhere. Find that person, and put them to death, too.
(a just punishment- their lie or screwup resulted in the accused's
death, so they are guilty of murder.)

This shows the level of knowledge of those who oppose the death penalty.
These are the same ones who "just want the laws obeyed"

They have no real concept of the legal system they are talking about.

*Innocent * people are not put to death.
It is a fact of law that if found innocent you are released.

In our judicial system if you are found guilty, you are guilty and it DOES
NOT MATTER if you committed the crime or not.
You are guilty until some other legal action taken by the system overturns
your conviction.

You can't kill somebody for making a mistake, although it seems you want to,
and you can't kill somebody for following the law although, again, it seems
you want to.