| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"HVAC" |
| Date: |
08 Nov 2005 10:30:31 AM |
| Object: |
Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
SARASOTA, Florida (AP) -- Jurors in the trial of a man accused of
raping and strangling 11-year-old Carlie Brucia intently watched
security camera images Monday of a man grabbing her in a parking lot.
Some jurors sat on the edges of their seats and others watched with
fingers pressed to their lips as the images flickered on a TV screen.
They showed a man taking 11-year-old Carlie's arm and walking her out
of view of the camera posted outside a Sarasota car wash.
Prosecutors said in opening statements there is overwhelming evidence
that the man in the images is Joseph Smith, a 39-year-old former auto
mechanic and father of three daughters.
But the defense contended the evidence is inconclusive and other
suspects weren't properly checked out following the slaying, which
attracted wide attention after the images were shown around the world.
Besides the camera evidence, prosecutors said that DNA found on
Carlie's shirt came from Smith.
"The defendant used power and control to abduct, sexually batter and
kill 11-year-old Carlie," said prosecutor Debra Riva.
Riva said they learned of the security-camera images as they retraced
the route Carlie would have taken home from a friend's house on
February 1, 2004. Her stepfather, Steve Kansler, testified that it was
unusual for the girl not to come home since "Carlie was a responsible
person."
Carlie's body was found four nights after her disappearance on the
grounds of a nearby church after Smith told relatives where to find it,
Riva said. From jail, Smith had called his brother on a cell phone, and
his brother led detectives to the scene.
"Carlie's body will tell you the rest of the story," Riva told the
jury. She said marks on her wrists suggested they had been restrained,
and that Smith had strangled the girl from behind.
As Riva spoke Monday, Smith sat nearly motionless, looking at her or
occasionally looking down at the defense table. The defendant, charged
with first-degree murder, kidnapping and capital sexual battery, has
pleaded not guilty. He could be sentenced to death if he is convicted
in the slaying.
Smith's attorney, Adam Tebrugge, told jurors that investigators got the
names of numerous suspects after the camera images were shown,
including that of a man who lived at the friend's house where Carlie
had spent the previous night. But, he said, Smith became their primary
suspect almost immediately.
"Once the (Sarasota County) Sheriff's Office and the FBI decided that
Joe was the person, none of these other leads was investigated," he
said.
Tebrugge also raised questions about DNA evidence, citing past cases in
which he said "maverick" FBI lab employees had made false reports.
He questioned the motives of Smith's brother, John, saying that the
brothers had feuded and that John was angry at Joseph Smith.
"Please keep an open mind and approach the evidence with a certain
degree of skepticism," Tebrugge urged the jurors.
.
|
|
| User: "Mark Shippey" |
|
| Title: Re: Computerized World Peace Anyone Still Against The Death Penalty? |
13 Nov 2005 10:47:58 AM |
|
|
http://www.whereisthemoney.org/ <truth@r.us> wrote:
On 13 Nov 2005 06:31:59 GMT, Mark Shippey <colonel@anti-grey.net> wrote:
<snip>
someone had to be the model mind.
You mean, like, there was once a mind that become the model for the
creation of
a computerized orbital police satellite system
So you need thousands of sockpuppets to post this nonsense, won't Alexa
can't get it across?
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Computerized World Peace Anyone Still Against The Death Penalty? |
12 Nov 2005 10:29:20 PM |
|
|
http://www.whereisthemoney.org/ wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 00:35:37 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I don't break any laws most every day.
You never exceed the speed limit, not come to a complete stop, make
unneeded lane changes, j-walk?
No, but thank you for asking.
Unless you don't drive, I've got a nickle that says you do this on a regular
basis.
If you do anything but walk, remember that the driveer of the taxi or bus
will be killed in the next few minutes.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "http://www.whereisthemoney.org/" |
|
| Title: Re: Computerized World Peace Anyone Still Against The Death Penalty? |
12 Nov 2005 02:47:10 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 18:38:17 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
With the exception of a soldier under "The Uniform Code of Military Justice"
no crime has been committed.
With a computerized satellite police system there would be no double
standard.
.
|
|
|
| User: "http://www.whereisthemoney.org/" |
|
| Title: Russian/Chinese Joint Effort For World Peace: Computerized Police Satellite System |
12 Nov 2005 03:25:50 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 20:47:10 GMT, "http://www.whereisthemoney.org/"
<truth@R.us> wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 18:38:17 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
With the exception of a soldier under "The Uniform Code of Military Justice"
no crime has been committed.
With a computerized satellite police system there would be no double
standard.
With a computerized satellite police system no one would have to worry about
an invading army or an act of aggression against an individual or a country.
There would be no need for a military.
Just outlaw 2 things:
Killing and stealing.
Any criminal who steals or kills, for what ever reason or justification will
be eliminated by the police satellite.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Russian/Chinese Joint Effort For World Peace: Computerized Police Satellite System |
12 Nov 2005 06:47:08 PM |
|
|
http://www.whereisthemoney.org/ wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 20:47:10 GMT, "http://www.whereisthemoney.org/"
<truth@R.us> wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 18:38:17 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
With the exception of a soldier under "The Uniform Code of Military
Justice" no crime has been committed.
With a computerized satellite police system there would be no double
standard.
With a computerized satellite police system no one would have to
worry about an invading army or an act of aggression against an
individual or a country.
There would be no need for a military.
Just outlaw 2 things:
Killing and stealing.
Any criminal who steals or kills, for what ever reason or
justification will be eliminated by the police satellite.
Already you have modified the system. It has gone from all the laws to just
killing and stealing.
The man who walks into the convenience store, drags the clerk into the back
room, beats and rapes her. He lives.
The ten year old who walks into the store and seeing nobody there, takes a
grape, dies. Good call.
The man who tries to stop the mad bomber by stealing a pipe to hit him with
dies and the bomber drives to the mall and kills 100 people, including
himself.
Die for stealing a penny, live for destroying the life of people by raping
them.
Swerve to avoid hitting a crowd of school children, kill a single person
and - die.
When it comes time to modify the system, who will do the work?
All of the people responsible for the programming are dead because their
work killed somebody.
.
|
|
|
| User: "http://www.whereisthemoney.org/" |
|
| Title: Re: Russian/Chinese Joint Effort For World Peace: Computerized Police Satellite System |
12 Nov 2005 08:45:49 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 00:47:08 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Already you <snip>
Sorry for cutting you short, hopefully you're not as short as you've been
cut, or you couldn't shave properly being unable to see in the mirror.
Frankly, <cutting to the chase here>Usenet has been a feast of thought, some
with and some without ants. It's those pesky mind ants which needed to be
colonized.
Without sugar, the ants would have never stayed so long; engorging
themselves day in and day out, taking tiny sugar crystals back to the nest,
or farm, if you prefer.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Russian/Chinese Joint Effort For World Peace: Computerized Police Satellite System |
12 Nov 2005 10:47:56 PM |
|
|
http://www.whereisthemoney.org/ wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 00:47:08 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Already you <snip>
Sorry for cutting you short, hopefully you're not as short as you've
been cut, or you couldn't shave properly being unable to see in the
mirror.
I stopped shaving in 1975, so I don't need mirrors.
Frankly, <cutting to the chase here>Usenet has been a feast of
thought, some with and some without ants. It's those pesky mind ants
which needed to be colonized.
Without sugar, the ants would have never stayed so long; engorging
themselves day in and day out, taking tiny sugar crystals back to the
nest, or farm, if you prefer.
There's an old science fiction short story called, I believe "Quis custodiet
ipsos custodes" which deals with the subject.
Pre satellite, they put up flying robots which stop crime. Soon they realize
the error of this and put up machines to stop the originals. The end result,
of course is a group of machines that control us and can't be stopped.
.
|
|
|
| User: "http://www.whereisthemoney.org/" |
|
| Title: Re: Russian/Chinese Joint Effort For World Peace: Computerized Police Satellite System |
13 Nov 2005 12:07:15 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 04:47:56 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
The end result, of course is a group of machines that
control us and can't be stopped.
Think of them as benign orbital nannies.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
|
| Title: Re: Russian/Chinese Joint Effort For World Peace: Computerized Police Satellite System |
14 Nov 2005 11:06:11 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 04:47:56 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
I stopped shaving in 1975, so I don't need mirrors.
You must look like me then; Head upside down. (:-)>
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Graham Kennedy" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
10 Nov 2005 09:49:29 AM |
|
|
thomas p wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 20:14:44 +0000, Graham Kennedy <graham@ditl.org>
wrote:
Pramod Subramanyan wrote:
Violence is a bad thing. Ideally, one wants a world completely devoid
of violence.
Any sort of system that makes certain acts of violence "legal" and
certain acts "illegal" will prevent violence from being eliminated. So
in effect, the legal/illegal classifaction will help perpetuate
violence.
In an ideal world, there would be no violence. But we
don't live in an ideal world. And to act like we do live
in an ideal world when we do not, does not make sense.
We do live in a world in which the death penalty has never been shown
to prevent violent crime, but many people still insist that it is
necessary. That does not make any sense.
Agreed on that. I don't see that the death penalty
actually deters crime, and the only purpose left
for it is revenge - which I see as rather pointless.
There are other times when violence is required,
though - self defence, certain wars, that kind
of thing.
Perhaps they just don't agree with it?
That much is clear, but is there any rational reason for the
disagreement, one that fits the facts in the real world? I am not
denying that there is, but I do not know what it is.
I think a lot of people don't base their decisions
on rationality - or at least, their rational process
extends only as far as "murderers are horrible and
horrible things should be destroyed, so murderers
should be killed".
--
Graham Kennedy
Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Tink" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
09 Nov 2005 12:40:55 PM |
|
|
HVAC wrote:
SARASOTA, Florida (AP) -- Jurors in the trial of a man accused of
raping and strangling 11-year-old Carlie Brucia intently watched
security camera images Monday of a man grabbing her in a parking lot.
Some jurors sat on the edges of their seats and others watched with
fingers pressed to their lips as the images flickered on a TV screen.
They showed a man taking 11-year-old Carlie's arm and walking her out
of view of the camera posted outside a Sarasota car wash.
Prosecutors said in opening statements there is overwhelming evidence
that the man in the images is Joseph Smith, a 39-year-old former auto
mechanic and father of three daughters.
But the defense contended the evidence is inconclusive and other
suspects weren't properly checked out following the slaying, which
attracted wide attention after the images were shown around the world.
Besides the camera evidence, prosecutors said that DNA found on
Carlie's shirt came from Smith.
"The defendant used power and control to abduct, sexually batter and
kill 11-year-old Carlie," said prosecutor Debra Riva.
Riva said they learned of the security-camera images as they retraced
the route Carlie would have taken home from a friend's house on
February 1, 2004. Her stepfather, Steve Kansler, testified that it was
unusual for the girl not to come home since "Carlie was a responsible
person."
Carlie's body was found four nights after her disappearance on the
grounds of a nearby church after Smith told relatives where to find it,
Riva said. From jail, Smith had called his brother on a cell phone, and
his brother led detectives to the scene.
"Carlie's body will tell you the rest of the story," Riva told the
jury. She said marks on her wrists suggested they had been restrained,
and that Smith had strangled the girl from behind.
As Riva spoke Monday, Smith sat nearly motionless, looking at her or
occasionally looking down at the defense table. The defendant, charged
with first-degree murder, kidnapping and capital sexual battery, has
pleaded not guilty. He could be sentenced to death if he is convicted
in the slaying.
Smith's attorney, Adam Tebrugge, told jurors that investigators got the
names of numerous suspects after the camera images were shown,
including that of a man who lived at the friend's house where Carlie
had spent the previous night. But, he said, Smith became their primary
suspect almost immediately.
"Once the (Sarasota County) Sheriff's Office and the FBI decided that
Joe was the person, none of these other leads was investigated," he
said.
Tebrugge also raised questions about DNA evidence, citing past cases in
which he said "maverick" FBI lab employees had made false reports.
He questioned the motives of Smith's brother, John, saying that the
brothers had feuded and that John was angry at Joseph Smith.
"Please keep an open mind and approach the evidence with a certain
degree of skepticism," Tebrugge urged the jurors.
Yeah. Death is both too good and too easy for this miserable ***** wipe.
--
Skydivers don't knock on death's door; they ring the bell and run
away... It really pisses him off.
The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS# 8808
EAC Chairman, Division of Skydiving and Sushi consumption.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Dr. Zarkov" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
08 Nov 2005 03:12:56 PM |
|
|
HVAC wrote:
SARASOTA, Florida (AP) -- Jurors in the trial of a man accused of
raping and strangling 11-year-old Carlie Brucia intently watched
security camera images Monday of a man grabbing her in a parking lot.
Some jurors sat on the edges of their seats and others watched with
fingers pressed to their lips as the images flickered on a TV screen.
They showed a man taking 11-year-old Carlie's arm and walking her out
of view of the camera posted outside a Sarasota car wash.
Prosecutors said in opening statements there is overwhelming evidence
that the man in the images is Joseph Smith, a 39-year-old former auto
mechanic and father of three daughters.
But the defense contended the evidence is inconclusive and other
suspects weren't properly checked out following the slaying, which
attracted wide attention after the images were shown around the world.
Besides the camera evidence, prosecutors said that DNA found on
Carlie's shirt came from Smith.
"The defendant used power and control to abduct, sexually batter and
kill 11-year-old Carlie," said prosecutor Debra Riva.
Riva said they learned of the security-camera images as they retraced
the route Carlie would have taken home from a friend's house on
February 1, 2004. Her stepfather, Steve Kansler, testified that it was
unusual for the girl not to come home since "Carlie was a responsible
person."
Carlie's body was found four nights after her disappearance on the
grounds of a nearby church after Smith told relatives where to find it,
Riva said. From jail, Smith had called his brother on a cell phone, and
his brother led detectives to the scene.
"Carlie's body will tell you the rest of the story," Riva told the
jury. She said marks on her wrists suggested they had been restrained,
and that Smith had strangled the girl from behind.
As Riva spoke Monday, Smith sat nearly motionless, looking at her or
occasionally looking down at the defense table. The defendant, charged
with first-degree murder, kidnapping and capital sexual battery, has
pleaded not guilty. He could be sentenced to death if he is convicted
in the slaying.
....
Many of us are not against the death penalty in itself, but the way that
it is used at present. It's become evident as DNA and similar testing
have allowed some cases to be definitely resolved, that the police have
manipulated evidence to convict a large number of innocent people.
Reliable studies have found that in those cases that could be definitely
resolved by DNA testing, in about one-tenth to one-fourth of the
convictions the person was actually innocent (See, for example, _Actual
Innocence_ by Dwyer, Scheck, and Neufeld).
You mention a child killer. But take the case of Kirk Bloodsworth, an
ex-marine who was convicted of raping and murdering a child based on a
eyewitness identification. The courtroom erupted into cheers when he
was sentenced to death. He spent 9 years in prison before being cleared
by DNA testing. It turned out the police had felt pressured to convict
someone so they grabbed the first suspect they could and framed him on
an bogus identification by a young boy.
In another example, Kenneth Adams, Verneal Johnson, Willie Rainge, and
Dennis Williams spent 18 years in prison (two of them on death row) for
a double murder while the real killers went free. It was only an
accidental discovery and DNA testing that allowed the real murderers to
be finally caught(Newark Star Ledger 7/4/96).
A study by attorney Peter Neufeld found 56 persons on death row who were
exonerated beyond all doubt by DNA testing, and a total of 75 who were
exonerated beyond all reasonable doubt and released. Note that in many
if not most of these cases the convicted people were not career
criminals; many were perfectly respectable citizens with no criminal
records who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Often their only "crime" was that they resembled a suspect and happened
to be in the area. You may not even get the chance to be wrongfully
convicted, by the way. Millionaire recluse Don Scott was killed by
police in his mountaintop home in a fruitless drug raid that was part of
a blatant attempt to confiscate his land (See The Drug War's Hidden
Economic Agenda, The Nation, March 9, 1998 and _Drug Crazy_, Mike Gray,
Random House, 1998). The raid found no drugs and was based solely on
hearsay.
BTW, in case anyone thinks this only happens to minorities, Honaker,
Titus, Scott, Bloodsworth, and others were white and middle-class,
including a few rather affluent ones.
The problem is that there are essentially no practical controls on how
the police gather evidence: They can plant, fabricate, or manipulate
evidence almost at will, and there is a real incentive for them to do
so, since they make themselves look good by "solving" cases or even
arresting perfectly innocent people. The investigation into the police
scandal in Los Angeles uncovered at least 99 people who were framed and
convicted, and later proved innocent. These cases turned up false
confessions, bungled forensics, self-serving informants, eye-witnesses
repeatedly identifying the wrong man, and, of course, outright lying and
fabrication of evidence by police.
An extensive study published in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette found
hundreds of instances of police and prosecutors lying, hiding evidence,
distorting facts, engaging in cover-ups, paying for perjury, and setting
up innocent people in order to win indictments and convictions. One
former U.S. attorney, Robert Merkle, remarked, "It's a results-oriented
process today; fairness be damned. The philosophy of the past 10 to 15
years [is] that whatever works is what's right."
.
|
|
|
| User: "Part_Time_Troll" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
09 Nov 2005 01:18:47 AM |
|
|
"Dr. Zarkov" <Ming@Mongo.com> in news:6q-dnWQL3KVHiezeRVn-qQ@rcn.net:
Reliable studies have found that in those cases that could be definitely
resolved by DNA testing, in about one-tenth to one-fourth of the
convictions the person was actually innocent (See, for example, _Actual
Innocence_ by Dwyer, Scheck, and Neufeld).
and be assured that "they're" already devising ways to mess with dna 'evidence'
--
...and on the Seventh Day, the roomful of monkeys typed up a "Testament"..
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Colin Day" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
08 Nov 2005 04:02:41 PM |
|
|
HVAC wrote:
Yes, I am.
Colin Day aa #1500
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Twittering One" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
09 Nov 2005 04:13:55 PM |
|
|
I think the death penalty is wrong
because most people who commite crimes are mentally ill,
by virtue of the fact that violent crime under most
circumstances is not natural behavio, unless
the creature is abused or in acute panic, or
under chronic deprivation.
But I think the death penalty should be a Choice,
if a peson is sentenced to life in prison,
a terrible burden to bear, also not to be praised.
But getting out of prison with no hope or skills
is not a happy option for many, either.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Twittering One" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
09 Nov 2005 04:16:35 PM |
|
|
Prisons need Human Rights inspectors
by nonpartisan observers,
like way the Red Cross is supposed to inspect
POW camps.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Twittering One" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
09 Nov 2005 04:19:28 PM |
|
|
April 14, 2004:
PEN Welcomes Developments Regarding Prison Writing Suit,
Workshop Suspension
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
For more information, contact:
Larry Siems
Director
Freedom to Write and International Programs
(212) 334-1660, ext. 106
lsiems@pen.org
PEN Welcomes Developments Regarding Prison Writing Suit, Workshop
Suspension
New York, New York, April 14, 2004 - Assurances that Connecticut's
Department of Corrections will continue Wally Lamb's Creative Writing
Program at the York Correctional Institution and that the State of
Connecticut will soon announce a successful settlement in Connecticut's
lawsuit against 8 women who contributed to a successful anthology of
prison writings entitled Couldn't Keep it to Myself are "very positive"
developments, according to PEN American Center Freedom to Write Program
Director Larry Siems.
http://www.pen.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/155/prmID/175
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
09 Nov 2005 12:25:18 PM |
|
|
Not quoting any thing because of the following
Interesting, but the fact that camara footage and DNA are used in a
court of law,
doesn't change my attitude towards Death-penalties.
I am still against it.
I fail to so why this story could change my mind.
Tell me
Peter van Velzen
November 2005
Amstelveen
The Netherlands
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "LP" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
08 Nov 2005 04:18:03 PM |
|
|
On 8 Nov 2005 08:30:31 -0800, "HVAC" <MR.HVAC@gmail.com> wrote:
5 Reasons To Oppose The Death Penalty
1 The death penalty is racist.
2 The death penalty punishes the poor.
3 The death penalty condemns the innocent to die.
4 The death penalty is not a deterrent to violent crime.
5 The death penalty is "cruel and unusual punishment."
* * * * *
The United States is one of a handful of countries which still
executes people.
There are currently more than 3,500 people on death row -- more than
at any time in U.S. history.
Since 1976, more than 580 people have been executed in the United
States. Over 50% of those have been killed since 1992.
More than three-quarters of all executions since 1976 took place in
Southern states. The reality is that lynching still exists -- it's
just legal now.
Texas Gov. George Bush has personally signed death warrants for 100
executions and counting.
President Clinton's 1994 crime bill added 58 more crimes that are
punishable by death. And his "Anti-Terrorism" bill limits the number
of federal appeals for death row prisoners to just one within one year
of conviction.
Both parties have created a "get tough" climate which can only mean
more executions. It's time to take a stand against this barbaric
practice.
What follows are five reasons why you should oppose the death penalty
and how you can get involved in the fight to end it.
http://www.nodeathpenalty.org/5reasons2001.pdf
http://www.nodeathpenalty.org/fiveRs.html
Why does Amnesty International oppose the death penalty?
http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/dp_qa.html
End The Death Penalty Now!
http://www.msu.edu/~millettf/DeathPenalty/
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tapio Erola" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
09 Nov 2005 09:44:36 AM |
|
|
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> writes:
On 8 Nov 2005 08:30:31 -0800, "HVAC" <MR.HVAC@gmail.com> wrote:
5 Reasons To Oppose The Death Penalty
1 The death penalty is racist.
This is not a problem of death penalty, this is a problem of judicial
system. This has nothing to do with validity of death penalty itself,
but makes for a terrific soundbite.
2 The death penalty punishes the poor.
Again, this is not a problem of death penalty, this is a problem of
judicial system.
3 The death penalty condemns the innocent to die.
Strangely enough, there haven't been any known cases of someone being
proven innocent after execution.
4 The death penalty is not a deterrent to violent crime.
Have you ever heard of someone executed reoffending?
However, in several cases prisoners doing life without parole have
killed other prisoners, guards, et cetera.
5 The death penalty is "cruel and unusual punishment."
Note: Death Penalty is indirectly referred in Constitution:
Fifth Amendment:
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise
infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand
Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the
Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor
shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in
jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case
to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be
taken for public use, without just compensation."
Ie. You cannot "be deprived of live" *without* due process of law.
However, *with* due process of law...
Ergo, death penalty cannot be unconstitutional.
--
Tapio Erola
"I don't believe in no win scenarios."
--Capt. James T. Kirk
.
|
|
|
| User: "Lizz Holmans" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
09 Nov 2005 11:07:06 AM |
|
|
On 09 Nov 2005 17:44:36 +0200, Tapio Erola <txr@localhost.localdomain>
wrote:
Strangely enough, there haven't been any known cases of someone being
proven innocent after execution.
I suggest you look into the Crippen murders. Tim Evans was convicted
of killing his wife and child. After he was hanged, Mr. Crippen
confessed to both murders and was incontrovertably guilty.. He was
also hanged. Unfortunately, it was a bit to late to resuscitate Mr.
Evans.
This case helped stop the dealth penalty in Great Britain
There's your case. Your argument is invalid.
Lizz 'nothing funny here' Holmans
--
I was too far out all my life
.
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
09 Nov 2005 11:57:41 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:07:06 +0000, Lizz Holmans
<dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 09 Nov 2005 17:44:36 +0200, Tapio Erola <txr@localhost.localdomain>
wrote:
Strangely enough, there haven't been any known cases of someone being
proven innocent after execution.
I suggest you look into the Crippen murders. Tim Evans was convicted
of killing his wife and child. After he was hanged, Mr. Crippen
confessed to both murders and was incontrovertably guilty.. He was
also hanged. Unfortunately, it was a bit to late to resuscitate Mr.
Evans.
This case helped stop the dealth penalty in Great Britain
Also the A6 hitch-hiker case. Hanratty and Alphon. A couple picked up
a hitch hiker who shot and killed the man, then raped and shot the
woman leaving her paralysed. The wrong man was hung and it took an
investigative journalist to find the right one - which the police
could have done. The innocent man was given a posthumous pardon -
which I'm sure was a great comfort to him.
And the Derek Bentley case. Two teenagers robbed a shop at gunpoint.
The younger who was only 17 was the leader and killed a policeman. The
older, Bentley, was 18 but retarded. The policeman had said "give me
the gun", and Bentley said "give it to him". A smart prosecuting
barrister persuaded the jury that this meant "shoot him" so they hung
him for it. There was an outcry.
There's your case. Your argument is invalid.
Tapio has obviously forgotten the state governor who stopped all death
penalties after DNA tests showed how many people on death row hadn't
done it.
Lizz 'nothing funny here' Holmans
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "LP" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
09 Nov 2005 04:03:03 PM |
|
|
On 09 Nov 2005 17:44:36 +0200, Tapio Erola <txr@localhost.localdomain>
wrote:
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> writes:
On 8 Nov 2005 08:30:31 -0800, "HVAC" <MR.HVAC@gmail.com> wrote:
5 Reasons To Oppose The Death Penalty
1 The death penalty is racist.
This is not a problem of death penalty, this is a problem of judicial
system. This has nothing to do with validity of death penalty itself,
but makes for a terrific soundbite.
2 The death penalty punishes the poor.
Again, this is not a problem of death penalty, this is a problem of
judicial system.
And since imposition of the death penalty must inevitably use the
judicial system, the point remains.
3 The death penalty condemns the innocent to die.
Strangely enough, there haven't been any known cases of someone being
proven innocent after execution.
As others have pointed out, there have been cases. Even if it had
never happened, the fact that the potential exists is reason enough.
4 The death penalty is not a deterrent to violent crime.
Have you ever heard of someone executed reoffending?
One reason it doesn't act as a deferent is that it sets a bad example
for society. How do you expect the citizens of a society to have
respect for life when the government sets such a precedence?
From the link that you deleted.
http://www.nodeathpenalty.org/index.html
An FBI study shows that states which have abolished the death penalty
averaged lower murder rates than states which have not.
More executions, more murders
Texas moved from its first execution after Furman in 1982 to becoming
the national leader in the use of the death penalty. During the same
period, the state also experienced a tremendous growth in its violent
crime rate. From 1982 to 1991, the national crime rate rose by 5%. In
the same period, the Texas crime rate rose by 24%, and the violent
crime rate in Texas rose by nearly 46%. In Texas, more people die from
gunshot wounds than traffic accidents. A strong case can be made that,
rather than decreasing murder, capital punishment actually has a
brutalizing effect on society, contributing to an increase in murder.
However, in several cases prisoners doing life without parole have
killed other prisoners, guards, et cetera.
5 The death penalty is "cruel and unusual punishment."
Item 5 makes no mention of the US Constitution. The claim is that the
death penalty is "cruel and unusual punishment." It doesn't mention
constitutionality.
Note: Death Penalty is indirectly referred in Constitution:
Fifth Amendment:
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise
infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand
Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the
Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor
shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in
jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case
to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be
taken for public use, without just compensation."
Ie. You cannot "be deprived of live" *without* due process of law.
However, *with* due process of law...
Ergo, death penalty cannot be unconstitutional.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tapio Erola" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
10 Nov 2005 08:21:25 AM |
|
|
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> writes:
On 09 Nov 2005 17:44:36 +0200, Tapio Erola <txr@localhost.localdomain>
wrote:
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> writes:
On 8 Nov 2005 08:30:31 -0800, "HVAC" <MR.HVAC@gmail.com> wrote:
5 Reasons To Oppose The Death Penalty
1 The death penalty is racist.
This is not a problem of death penalty, this is a problem of judicial
system. This has nothing to do with validity of death penalty itself,
but makes for a terrific soundbite.
2 The death penalty punishes the poor.
Again, this is not a problem of death penalty, this is a problem of
judicial system.
And since imposition of the death penalty must inevitably use the
judicial system, the point remains.
If this is the case, you must oppose any and all punishments handed
out by judicial system, instead of singling out a single form of
punishment. If conviction is unjust, any penalty is unjust.
However, in several cases prisoners doing life without parole have
killed other prisoners, guards, et cetera.
5 The death penalty is "cruel and unusual punishment."
Item 5 makes no mention of the US Constitution. The claim is that the
death penalty is "cruel and unusual punishment." It doesn't mention
constitutionality.
The expression "cruel and unusual punishment" is clearly an attempt to
reference to eight amendment of US Constitution in order to infer
unconstitutionality of death penalty.
It's the same ideologically-driven contorted reasoning that created
"emanations of penumbras" and attempts to mold US Constitution in
direct opposition of what founders intended. If the Constitution needs
changing, there are proper mechanisms for it: Either a Constitutional
Convention or Amendment process.
Note: Death Penalty is indirectly referred in Constitution:
Fifth Amendment:
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise
infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand
Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the
Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor
shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in
jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case
to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be
taken for public use, without just compensation."
Ie. You cannot "be deprived of live" *without* due process of law.
However, *with* due process of law...
Ergo, death penalty cannot be unconstitutional.
--
Tapio Erola
"I don't believe in no win scenarios."
--Capt. James T. Kirk
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Dr. Zarkov" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
10 Nov 2005 05:56:26 PM |
|
|
Tapio Erola wrote:
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> writes:
....
3 The death penalty condemns the innocent to die.
Strangely enough, there haven't been any known cases of someone being
proven innocent after execution.
It is not strange at all, since it is unlikely that a great deal of
effort will or even could go into proving someone innocent after he has
been executed. And that reasoning is invalid in any case: The fact that
no one has been proven innocent after being executed means nothing in
itself; you would need a study of people who were executed who were
afterwards proved to be either innocent or guilty by some definitive means.
The evidence of so many people who were convicted and imprisoned, and
later proved innocent by new methods such as DNA testing, strongly
suggests that some innocent people have been executed. A study by
attorney Peter Neufeld found 56 persons on death row who were exonerated
beyond all doubt by DNA testing, and a total of 75 who were exonerated
beyond all reasonable doubt and released. It’s become evident that
fabrication and falsification of evidence by police in order to get
convictions is routine. Fred Zain, the head of the state forensics lab
in West Virginia (and later Texas), was shown to have falsified and
fabricated evidence in hundreds of cases. Gilchrist in Oklahoma and
others did the same. One cop even transferred fingerprints to frame people.
I'm actually in favor of the death penalty in principle, but not as long
as our "justice" system is so manifestly unjust--as it is now.
4 The death penalty is not a deterrent to violent crime.
Have you ever heard of someone executed reoffending?
However, in several cases prisoners doing life without parole have
killed other prisoners, guards, et cetera.
5 The death penalty is "cruel and unusual punishment."
Note: Death Penalty is indirectly referred in Constitution:
Fifth Amendment:
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise
infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand
Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the
Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor
shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in
jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case
to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be
taken for public use, without just compensation."
Ie. You cannot "be deprived of live" *without* due process of law.
However, *with* due process of law...
Ergo, death penalty cannot be unconstitutional.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
09 Nov 2005 08:08:25 PM |
|
|
On 8 Nov 2005 08:30:31 -0800, "HVAC" <MR.HVAC@gmail.com> wrote:
SARASOTA, Florida (AP) -- Jurors in the trial of a man accused of
raping and strangling 11-year-old Carlie Brucia intently watched
security camera images Monday of a man grabbing her in a parking lot.
I, for one, would be against capital punishment, no matter what the crime.
Besides, there are things worse than death.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Goodness Godless" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
08 Nov 2005 03:13:02 PM |
|
|
Or to put it another way.
Only the Third World and the USA.
Infact, only in China and Nigiria, does the State Murder more of it's
People than the USA, be proud Faciest!
"HVAC" <MR.HVAC@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1131467431.011785.305010@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
SARASOTA, Florida (AP) -- Jurors in the trial of a man accused of
raping and strangling 11-year-old Carlie Brucia intently watched
security camera images Monday of a man grabbing her in a parking lot.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Goodness Godless" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
08 Nov 2005 03:05:29 PM |
|
|
Typical of USA IslamoChristo Faciest.
The United States of Murder.
No we do not believe in State Sponcered Murder!
We love little children here in Europe!
"HVAC" <MR.HVAC@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1131467431.011785.305010@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
SARASOTA, Florida (AP) -- Jurors in the trial of a man accused of
raping and strangling 11-year-old Carlie Brucia intently watched
security camera images Monday of a man grabbing her in a parking lot.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
08 Nov 2005 10:57:46 AM |
|
|
Yeah. The 31 innocent people released from death row in
Indiana, as well as the other 120 across the US. And
that's only those known of in the last ten years, not
counting others who were executed before presenting new
evidence that would exonerate them. Unless, of course,
you don't object to innocent people being murdered by
the state. 9_9
You fucking dolt. Are you so dumb you equate being
against the death penalty to encouraging or protecting
child murderers?
Bob Dog
Atheist #153 = 1^3 + 5^3 + 3^3
EAC's chief cook and brainwasher
-----
"Half the bible is nothing but
who to kill and how to kill them."
- 2, The Ranting Gryphon
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
09 Nov 2005 11:58:56 AM |
|
|
Yep. I am still against the death penalty. Thanks for asking.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
|
| Title: Re: Anyone Still Against The Death Penealty? |
08 Nov 2005 01:49:51 PM |
|
|
Yes. I am.
-- cary
.
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
