| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"newzguys" |
| Date: |
16 Dec 2005 09:25:28 PM |
| Object: |
Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
"The same applies to the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually
orientated person.' This was a discovery of only 150 years ago.
Go to the Bible and it simply is not there. Often, people speak
of the clear Biblical teaching about how to deal pastorally
with homosexual people, but that is a real howler. The Bible
knows nothing of the existence of homosexual people. No doubt
there were such people in the ancient world and others would
have had the experience of engaging with them, but they were
blind to their existence as 'homosexually orientated people'
because they did not yet have the concept of 'exclusive
homosexual orientation' with which to order their raw
experiences."
"Without the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually orientated
person' it is therefore an impossibility for biblical writers
to refer explicitly to or claim to know actual people who filled
that concept. Even if they experienced them, they were blind to
the existence of exclusive homosexual identity. There can
therefore be no biblical text consciously directed at
'homosexually orientated people' as a distinct sub-class of
humans. The biblical authors cannot even have dreamed of such a
thing for the Bible does not work with the mid-nineteenth century
distinction between homosexuals and heterosexuals. In ancient
days it was simply a matter of working with the assumed concept
of the undifferentiated heterosexuality of males and females."
-By Dr Carnley who is a Cambridge PhD, and Archbishop of Perth
For a full history of the concept of homosexuality see:
Legal history
http://hnn.us/articles/1539.html
Medical history
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/social14.htm
.
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| User: "J Young" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
16 Dec 2005 09:40:44 PM |
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"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
"The same applies to the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually
orientated person.' This was a discovery of only 150 years ago.
Go to the Bible and it simply is not there. Often, people speak
of the clear Biblical teaching about how to deal pastorally
with homosexual people, but that is a real howler. The Bible
knows nothing of the existence of homosexual people. No doubt
there were such people in the ancient world and others would
have had the experience of engaging with them, but they were
blind to their existence as 'homosexually orientated people'
because they did not yet have the concept of 'exclusive
homosexual orientation' with which to order their raw
experiences."
"Without the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually orientated
person' it is therefore an impossibility for biblical writers
to refer explicitly to or claim to know actual people who filled
that concept. Even if they experienced them, they were blind to
the existence of exclusive homosexual identity. There can
therefore be no biblical text consciously directed at
'homosexually orientated people' as a distinct sub-class of
humans. The biblical authors cannot even have dreamed of such a
thing for the Bible does not work with the mid-nineteenth century
distinction between homosexuals and heterosexuals. In ancient
days it was simply a matter of working with the assumed concept
of the undifferentiated heterosexuality of males and females."
-By Dr Carnley who is a Cambridge PhD, and Archbishop of Perth
For a full history of the concept of homosexuality see:
Legal history
http://hnn.us/articles/1539.html
Medical history
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/social14.htm
While my personal beliefs agree with the Archbishop, one must always
remember that in matters of faith and morality; His Holiness is infallible.
.
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| User: "Andrealphus" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
16 Dec 2005 09:48:06 PM |
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In News 5p6dneWQS7AHFT7enZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@giganews.com,, J Young at
youngopinions@aol.com, typed this:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
"The same applies to the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually
orientated person.' This was a discovery of only 150 years ago.
Go to the Bible and it simply is not there. Often, people speak
of the clear Biblical teaching about how to deal pastorally
with homosexual people, but that is a real howler. The Bible
knows nothing of the existence of homosexual people. No doubt
there were such people in the ancient world and others would
have had the experience of engaging with them, but they were
blind to their existence as 'homosexually orientated people'
because they did not yet have the concept of 'exclusive
homosexual orientation' with which to order their raw
experiences."
"Without the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually orientated
person' it is therefore an impossibility for biblical writers
to refer explicitly to or claim to know actual people who filled
that concept. Even if they experienced them, they were blind to
the existence of exclusive homosexual identity. There can
therefore be no biblical text consciously directed at
'homosexually orientated people' as a distinct sub-class of
humans. The biblical authors cannot even have dreamed of such a
thing for the Bible does not work with the mid-nineteenth century
distinction between homosexuals and heterosexuals. In ancient
days it was simply a matter of working with the assumed concept
of the undifferentiated heterosexuality of males and females."
-By Dr Carnley who is a Cambridge PhD, and Archbishop of Perth
For a full history of the concept of homosexuality see:
Legal history
http://hnn.us/articles/1539.html
Medical history
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/social14.htm
While my personal beliefs agree with the Archbishop, one must always
remember that in matters of faith and morality; His Holiness is
infallible.
His holiness is irrelevant.
--
Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if there be
one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of blindfolded
fear. – Thomas Jefferson
.
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| User: "I am being defamed here" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
16 Dec 2005 09:54:36 PM |
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Andrealphus wrote:
In News 5p6dneWQS7AHFT7enZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@giganews.com,, J Young at
youngopinions@aol.com, typed this:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
"The same applies to the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually
orientated person.' This was a discovery of only 150 years ago.
Go to the Bible and it simply is not there. Often, people speak
of the clear Biblical teaching about how to deal pastorally
with homosexual people, but that is a real howler. The Bible
knows nothing of the existence of homosexual people. No doubt
there were such people in the ancient world and others would
have had the experience of engaging with them, but they were
blind to their existence as 'homosexually orientated people'
because they did not yet have the concept of 'exclusive
homosexual orientation' with which to order their raw
experiences."
"Without the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually orientated
person' it is therefore an impossibility for biblical writers
to refer explicitly to or claim to know actual people who filled
that concept. Even if they experienced them, they were blind to
the existence of exclusive homosexual identity. There can
therefore be no biblical text consciously directed at
'homosexually orientated people' as a distinct sub-class of
humans. The biblical authors cannot even have dreamed of such a
thing for the Bible does not work with the mid-nineteenth century
distinction between homosexuals and heterosexuals. In ancient
days it was simply a matter of working with the assumed concept
of the undifferentiated heterosexuality of males and females."
-By Dr Carnley who is a Cambridge PhD, and Archbishop of Perth
For a full history of the concept of homosexuality see:
Legal history
http://hnn.us/articles/1539.html
Medical history
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/social14.htm
While my personal beliefs agree with the Archbishop, one must always
remember that in matters of faith and morality; His Holiness is
infallible.
His holiness is irrelevant.
His holiness was in the Hitler Youth and later intolerant towards
minority religions in Germany.
Barbara Schwarz
http://www.thunderstar.net/~Schwarz/
(About Dave Touretzky)
Other interesting websites:
http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/extremists/
http://www.alarmgermany.org/
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/sitemap.htm
http://www.cchr.org
http://www.MindFreedom.ORG/
http://www.datafilter.com/mc
http://www.freespeechstore.com
--
Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if there be
one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of blindfolded
fear. - Thomas Jefferson
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
17 Dec 2005 03:49:01 AM |
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I am being defamed here wrote:
His holiness was in the Hitler Youth =B4
Most men of his age were in the Hitler Youth because it was compulsory
at that time. Nothing special and no argument.
You would have to prove that there is a connection between being in the
Hitler Youth and beween the Roman Catholic Church teaching that
homosexuality (i.e. homosexual practice) is a grave sin if you wanted
to have a point.
and later intolerant towards
minority religions in Germany.
Bollocks.
DH
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
17 Dec 2005 04:14:32 AM |
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wrote:
I am being defamed here wrote:
His holiness was in the Hitler Youth =B4
Most men of his age were in the Hitler Youth because it was compulsory
at that time. Nothing special and no argument.
And Nazinger did nothing to resist, to fight against the nazi
authority. Nothing special that you have no argument.
You would have to prove that there is a connection between being in the
Hitler Youth and beween the Roman Catholic Church teaching that
homosexuality (i.e. homosexual practice) is a grave sin if you wanted
to have a point.
1) Hitler was a catholic and had the open support of Pius XII.
2) Hitler put homosexuals into the death camps. Oh, wait, you
believe Buchenwald's showers had water....
Bob Dog
Atheist #153 =3D 1^3 + 5^3 + 3^3
EAC's chief cook and brainwasher
-----
"Sooner or later the despairing Churches will try to get
a world-alliance with something like Fascist tyranny to
check the growth of Atheism. It is their one hope."
- Joseph McCabe
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
17 Dec 2005 07:44:19 AM |
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wrote:
dhoehr@myrealbox.com wrote:
I am being defamed here wrote:
His holiness was in the Hitler Youth =B4
Most men of his age were in the Hitler Youth because it was compulsory
at that time. Nothing special and no argument.
And Nazinger did nothing to resist, to fight against the nazi
authority.
You really haven't got a clue, have you?
Nothing special that you have no argument.
Well, _I_ do. The idiot ranting here is all yours.
You would have to prove that there is a connection between being in the
Hitler Youth and beween the Roman Catholic Church teaching that
homosexuality (i.e. homosexual practice) is a grave sin if you wanted
to have a point.
1) Hitler was a catholic and had the open support of Pius XII.
Bollocks part one.
2) Hitler put homosexuals into the death camps.
Yes, he did. You do seem to remember something from your history
lessons.
Oh, wait, you
believe Buchenwald's showers had water....
Idiot.=20
=20
DH
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| User: "Paulo Joe Jingy" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
18 Dec 2005 11:55:37 PM |
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wrote:
bg12345@apexmail.com wrote:
wrote:
I am being defamed here wrote:
His holiness was in the Hitler Youth =B4
Most men of his age were in the Hitler Youth because it was compulsory
at that time. Nothing special and no argument.
And Nazinger did nothing to resist, to fight against the nazi
authority.
You really haven't got a clue, have you?
No -- he doesn't. He's just another brainless smear artist.
.
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| User: "Andrealphus" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
17 Dec 2005 04:38:38 AM |
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In News 1134812941.792656.301010@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,,
dhoehr@myrealbox.com at dhoehr@myrealbox.com, typed this:
I am being defamed here wrote:
His holiness was in the Hitler Youth ´
Most men of his age were in the Hitler Youth because it was compulsory
at that time. Nothing special and no argument.
A number of young men resisted, even going so far as to form a small
resistance. There is no evidence that Ratzinger did anything but zealously
accept his appointment.
--
Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if there be
one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of blindfolded
fear. - Thomas Jefferson
.
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| User: "€€R.L.Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
17 Dec 2005 05:29:32 AM |
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In article <OURof.6884$nm.5780@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
"Andrealphus" <NOREALEMAIL10@THISADDRESS.FOAD> wrote:
In News 1134812941.792656.301010@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,,
dhoehr@myrealbox.com at dhoehr@myrealbox.com, typed this:
I am being defamed here wrote:
His holiness was in the Hitler Youth ´
Most men of his age were in the Hitler Youth because it was compulsory
at that time. Nothing special and no argument.
A number of young men resisted, even going so far as to form a small
resistance. There is no evidence that Ratzinger did anything but zealously
accept his appointment.
** The lust for dominion is indeed some powerful *****.
--
€ R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
.
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| User: "Andrealphus" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
17 Dec 2005 05:36:32 AM |
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In News r_-1712050329320001@192.168.1.101,, €€R.L.Measures at r_@somis.org,
typed this:
In article <OURof.6884$nm.5780@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
"Andrealphus" <NOREALEMAIL10@THISADDRESS.FOAD> wrote:
In News 1134812941.792656.301010@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,,
dhoehr@myrealbox.com at dhoehr@myrealbox.com, typed this:
I am being defamed here wrote:
His holiness was in the Hitler Youth ´
Most men of his age were in the Hitler Youth because it was
compulsory at that time. Nothing special and no argument.
A number of young men resisted, even going so far as to form a small
resistance. There is no evidence that Ratzinger did anything but
zealously accept his appointment.
** The lust for dominion is indeed some powerful *****.
No doubt.
--
Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if there be
one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of blindfolded
fear. – Thomas Jefferson
.
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| User: "€€R.L.Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
17 Dec 2005 11:23:52 AM |
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In article <4LSof.6044$3Z.4976@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
"Andrealphus" <NOREALEMAIL10@THISADDRESS.FOAD> wrote:
In News r_-1712050329320001@192.168.1.101,, €€R.L.Measures at r_@somis.org,
typed this:
In article <OURof.6884$nm.5780@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
"Andrealphus" <NOREALEMAIL10@THISADDRESS.FOAD> wrote:
In News 1134812941.792656.301010@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,,
dhoehr@myrealbox.com at dhoehr@myrealbox.com, typed this:
I am being defamed here wrote:
His holiness was in the Hitler Youth ´
Most men of his age were in the Hitler Youth because it was
compulsory at that time. Nothing special and no argument.
A number of young men resisted, even going so far as to form a small
resistance. There is no evidence that Ratzinger did anything but
zealously accept his appointment.
** The lust for dominion is indeed some powerful *****.
No doubt.
amen
--
€ R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
.
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| User: "€€R.L.Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
17 Dec 2005 05:27:18 AM |
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In article <5p6dneWQS7AHFT7enZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@giganews.com>, "J Young"
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
"The same applies to the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually
orientated person.' This was a discovery of only 150 years ago.
Go to the Bible and it simply is not there. Often, people speak
of the clear Biblical teaching about how to deal pastorally
with homosexual people, but that is a real howler. The Bible
knows nothing of the existence of homosexual people. No doubt
there were such people in the ancient world and others would
have had the experience of engaging with them, but they were
blind to their existence as 'homosexually orientated people'
because they did not yet have the concept of 'exclusive
homosexual orientation' with which to order their raw
experiences."
"Without the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually orientated
person' it is therefore an impossibility for biblical writers
to refer explicitly to or claim to know actual people who filled
that concept. Even if they experienced them, they were blind to
the existence of exclusive homosexual identity. There can
therefore be no biblical text consciously directed at
'homosexually orientated people' as a distinct sub-class of
humans. The biblical authors cannot even have dreamed of such a
thing for the Bible does not work with the mid-nineteenth century
distinction between homosexuals and heterosexuals. In ancient
days it was simply a matter of working with the assumed concept
of the undifferentiated heterosexuality of males and females."
-By Dr Carnley who is a Cambridge PhD, and Archbishop of Perth
For a full history of the concept of homosexuality see:
Legal history
http://hnn.us/articles/1539.html
Medical history
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/social14.htm
While my personal beliefs agree with the Archbishop, one must always
remember that in matters of faith and morality; His Holiness is infallible.
** Indeed, J., even when the present infallable His Holiness contradicts
a previous infallible His Holiness. As to the matter of homosexuality in
the Bible, the story of the Lot family makes it abundantly clear that the
Hebrew God was less than pleased with queers. OTOH, since God placed the
prostate gland ideally to facilitate guys humpin' guys, He has only
Himself to blame for what the hetero world considers an awful bane.
--
€ R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
.
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| User: "newzguys" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
17 Dec 2005 10:12:20 PM |
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=80=80R.L.Measures wrote:
In article <5p6dneWQS7AHFT7enZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@giganews.com>, "J Young"
<youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
"The same applies to the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually
orientated person.' This was a discovery of only 150 years ago.
Go to the Bible and it simply is not there. Often, people speak
of the clear Biblical teaching about how to deal pastorally
with homosexual people, but that is a real howler. The Bible
knows nothing of the existence of homosexual people. No doubt
there were such people in the ancient world and others would
have had the experience of engaging with them, but they were
blind to their existence as 'homosexually orientated people'
because they did not yet have the concept of 'exclusive
homosexual orientation' with which to order their raw
experiences."
"Without the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually orientated
person' it is therefore an impossibility for biblical writers
to refer explicitly to or claim to know actual people who filled
that concept. Even if they experienced them, they were blind to
the existence of exclusive homosexual identity. There can
therefore be no biblical text consciously directed at
'homosexually orientated people' as a distinct sub-class of
humans. The biblical authors cannot even have dreamed of such a
thing for the Bible does not work with the mid-nineteenth century
distinction between homosexuals and heterosexuals. In ancient
days it was simply a matter of working with the assumed concept
of the undifferentiated heterosexuality of males and females."
-By Dr Carnley who is a Cambridge PhD, and Archbishop of Perth
For a full history of the concept of homosexuality see:
Legal history
http://hnn.us/articles/1539.html
Medical history
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/social14.htm
While my personal beliefs agree with the Archbishop, one must always
remember that in matters of faith and morality; His Holiness is infallib=
le.
** Indeed, J., even when the present infallable His Holiness contradicts
a previous infallible His Holiness. As to the matter of homosexuality in
the Bible, the story of the Lot family makes it abundantly clear that the
Hebrew God was less than pleased with queers.
Gen 19:5 nor the destruction of Sodom had anything to do with
homosexuality, the city of sodom was slated for destruction
before Lot had the spies (the angels) into his house, because
there was not even ten that believed in God, Gen 18:32. Because
they all believed in Baal Jer 23:13-14. And they wanted to know
the angels to see if they were spies, as Num 21:1-2, 2 Sam 10:3
and is told what they wanted to do to them in Judges 19:22,
Judges 20:4-5 which had nothing to do with homosexuality, only
that they wanted to know them to see if they were spies. Spies
were the the forerunner of an envasion. The anges were spies,
and there to destroy the city, they had every reason to want to
know them. If they would not come out and tell them who they
were and why they were there they would kill them. Strangers
should have went and talked to the elders first, then went to Lots
house, they did not.
OTOH, since God placed the
prostate gland ideally to facilitate guys humpin' guys, He has only
Himself to blame for what the hetero world considers an awful bane.
.
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
17 Dec 2005 07:32:35 PM |
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On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 22:40:44 -0500, "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com>
wrote:
While my personal beliefs agree with the Archbishop, one must always
remember that in matters of faith and morality; His Holiness is infallible.
Mainly because another his holiness liked that idea, and rigged a vote
in favor for it. Around 1860 CE, I believe.
Thus, by rigged majority vote, your holiness became infallible.
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
18 Dec 2005 10:24:32 AM |
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in article 5p6dneWQS7AHFT7enZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@giganews.com, J Young at
youngopinions@aol.com wrote on 12/16/05 10:40 PM:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
"The same applies to the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually
orientated person.' This was a discovery of only 150 years ago.
Go to the Bible and it simply is not there. Often, people speak
of the clear Biblical teaching about how to deal pastorally
with homosexual people, but that is a real howler. The Bible
knows nothing of the existence of homosexual people. No doubt
there were such people in the ancient world and others would
have had the experience of engaging with them, but they were
blind to their existence as 'homosexually orientated people'
because they did not yet have the concept of 'exclusive
homosexual orientation' with which to order their raw
experiences."
"Without the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually orientated
person' it is therefore an impossibility for biblical writers
to refer explicitly to or claim to know actual people who filled
that concept. Even if they experienced them, they were blind to
the existence of exclusive homosexual identity. There can
therefore be no biblical text consciously directed at
'homosexually orientated people' as a distinct sub-class of
humans. The biblical authors cannot even have dreamed of such a
thing for the Bible does not work with the mid-nineteenth century
distinction between homosexuals and heterosexuals. In ancient
days it was simply a matter of working with the assumed concept
of the undifferentiated heterosexuality of males and females."
-By Dr Carnley who is a Cambridge PhD, and Archbishop of Perth
For a full history of the concept of homosexuality see:
Legal history
http://hnn.us/articles/1539.html
Medical history
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/social14.htm
While my personal beliefs agree with the Archbishop, one must always
remember that in matters of faith and morality; His Holiness is infallible.
Does His Holiness have something you want, J?
Paul
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| User: "billu" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
17 Dec 2005 10:24:59 AM |
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"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
This is not what the pope said and it is not what the Church teaches.
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| User: "newzguys" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
18 Dec 2005 11:02:10 PM |
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billu wrote:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
This is not what the pope said and it is not what the Church teaches.
So if a guy has homosexual tendencies that is not homosexuality?
"Homosexuality is inconsistent with the church teachings" =
"homosexuality is a grave sin"
You seem to be trying to make the former Nazi Youth look less
like a bigot, because he only condemns the act, not the person.
It is like Hitler only condemned the act of being a Jew, not actually
being a Jew. A fine distinction that makes no difference.
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| User: "billu" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
19 Dec 2005 05:04:54 AM |
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"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134968530.619283.33320@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
billu wrote:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
This is not what the pope said and it is not what the Church teaches.
So if a guy has homosexual tendencies that is not homosexuality?
"Homosexuality is inconsistent with the church teachings" =
"homosexuality is a grave sin"
You seem to be trying to make the former Nazi Youth look less
like a bigot, because he only condemns the act, not the person.
It is like Hitler only condemned the act of being a Jew, not actually
being a Jew. A fine distinction that makes no difference.
No you're wrong from the start. Only actions are sinful not orientation.
Tendencies are not sinful.
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
19 Dec 2005 05:28:37 AM |
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On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:04:54 GMT in
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, billu ("billu"
<billu@nospam.hotmail.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134968530.619283.33320@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
billu wrote:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
This is not what the pope said and it is not what the Church teaches.
So if a guy has homosexual tendencies that is not homosexuality?
"Homosexuality is inconsistent with the church teachings" =
"homosexuality is a grave sin"
You seem to be trying to make the former Nazi Youth look less
like a bigot, because he only condemns the act, not the person.
It is like Hitler only condemned the act of being a Jew, not actually
being a Jew. A fine distinction that makes no difference.
No you're wrong from the start. Only actions are sinful not orientation.
Tendencies are not sinful.
Ah. So you deny Matthew 5:27-28.
Has anyone got a box of matches and a pyre?
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
#442. www.video2cd.co.uk. Your 8mm films on DVD.
.
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| User: "billu" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
19 Dec 2005 05:33:02 PM |
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"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:e86dq15kv2jgccltioguj37uf4gg56v8bg@4ax.com...
On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:04:54 GMT in
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, billu ("billu"
<billu@nospam.hotmail.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134968530.619283.33320@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
billu wrote:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
This is not what the pope said and it is not what the Church teaches.
So if a guy has homosexual tendencies that is not homosexuality?
"Homosexuality is inconsistent with the church teachings" =
"homosexuality is a grave sin"
You seem to be trying to make the former Nazi Youth look less
like a bigot, because he only condemns the act, not the person.
It is like Hitler only condemned the act of being a Jew, not actually
being a Jew. A fine distinction that makes no difference.
No you're wrong from the start. Only actions are sinful not orientation.
Tendencies are not sinful.
Ah. So you deny Matthew 5:27-28.
Not at all. Do you think that a sexual orientation is simply lust? One can
experience attraction without lusting.
.
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| User: "€€R.L.Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
19 Dec 2005 09:13:18 AM |
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In article <qtwpf.6923$3Z.4838@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>, "billu"
<billu@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134968530.619283.33320@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
billu wrote:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
This is not what the pope said and it is not what the Church teaches.
So if a guy has homosexual tendencies that is not homosexuality?
"Homosexuality is inconsistent with the church teachings" =
"homosexuality is a grave sin"
You seem to be trying to make the former Nazi Youth look less
like a bigot, because he only condemns the act, not the person.
It is like Hitler only condemned the act of being a Jew, not actually
being a Jew. A fine distinction that makes no difference.
No you're wrong from the start. Only actions are sinful not orientation.
Tendencies are not sinful.
** Expecting even sincere gay priests to stay away from cute altar-boy
butts for periods of more than a few weeks is not reasonable.
--
€ R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
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| User: "newzguys" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
19 Dec 2005 09:24:06 PM |
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=80=80R.L.Measures wrote:
In article <qtwpf.6923$3Z.4838@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>, "billu"
<billu@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134968530.619283.33320@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
billu wrote:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
This is not what the pope said and it is not what the Church teaches.
So if a guy has homosexual tendencies that is not homosexuality?
"Homosexuality is inconsistent with the church teachings" =3D
"homosexuality is a grave sin"
You seem to be trying to make the former Nazi Youth look less
like a bigot, because he only condemns the act, not the person.
It is like Hitler only condemned the act of being a Jew, not actually
being a Jew. A fine distinction that makes no difference.
No you're wrong from the start. Only actions are sinful not orientation.
Tendencies are not sinful.
** Expecting even sincere gay priests to stay away from cute altar-boy
butts for periods of more than a few weeks is not reasonable.
And the Lord thus commanded:
Numbers 31:
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill
every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying
with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Joel 3:
3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for
an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
Lev 19:
20 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid,
betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given
her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because
she was not free.
Mary the Mother of Jesus would have been 12 years old or less
when God had sex with her and Joseph married her. What does
that make them?
The Talmud recommended that a daughter be given in marriage when
na'rah, between the age of twelve and twelve and a half, but a
father could marry her off well before that time. A boy reached his
age of majority at thirteen and was then eligible to negotiate
his own affairs. The marriage contract followed by the act of
sexual intercourse authorized possession of the female property.
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| User: "ramona" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
20 Dec 2005 03:13:48 PM |
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newzguys wrote:
=80=80R.L.Measures wrote:
In article <qtwpf.6923$3Z.4838@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>, "bill=
u"
<billu@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134968530.619283.33320@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
billu wrote:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
This is not what the pope said and it is not what the Church teache=
s=2E
So if a guy has homosexual tendencies that is not homosexuality?
"Homosexuality is inconsistent with the church teachings" =3D
"homosexuality is a grave sin"
You seem to be trying to make the former Nazi Youth look less
like a bigot, because he only condemns the act, not the person.
It is like Hitler only condemned the act of being a Jew, not actually
being a Jew. A fine distinction that makes no difference.
No you're wrong from the start. Only actions are sinful not orientati=
on.
Tendencies are not sinful.
** Expecting even sincere gay priests to stay away from cute altar-boy
butts for periods of more than a few weeks is not reasonable.
And the Lord thus commanded:
Numbers 31:
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill
every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying
with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Joel 3:
3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for
an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
Lev 19:
20 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid,
betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given
her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because
she was not free.
Mary the Mother of Jesus would have been 12 years old or less
when God had sex with her and Joseph married her. What does
that make them?
The Talmud recommended that a daughter be given in marriage when
na'rah, between the age of twelve and twelve and a half, but a
father could marry her off well before that time.
But that would be what we would call "betrothal" not full marriage.
The completion of the marriage did not usually take place until YEARS
later. It was/is a two part ceremony, though these days the betrothal
and marriage ceremony are combined or drastically shorted even for the
most orthodox.
A boy reached his
age of majority at thirteen and was then eligible to negotiate
his own affairs. The marriage contract followed by the act of
sexual intercourse authorized possession of the female property.
Actually sexual intercourse in Judaism is considered a mitzvah, a
commanded "good deed." It is especially sacred and you get bonus
points if performed on the Sabbath. It is not considered a sinful act
as sex has become in Christianity, even for the married.
What has also been ignored in this conversation is how Lot responds to
the lusting men at his door. I find the offering of his daughters as
the men would see fit, so that they would not commit "sin" a gruesome
plan b. Apparently offering up one's daughters to be raped by strange
men rather than allow them to commit homosexual acts is clearly the
preferred mode by Lot.
Ramona
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| User: "newzguys" |
|
| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
19 Dec 2005 09:08:45 PM |
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billu wrote:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134968530.619283.33320@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
billu wrote:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
This is not what the pope said and it is not what the Church teaches.
So if a guy has homosexual tendencies that is not homosexuality?
"Homosexuality is inconsistent with the church teachings" =
"homosexuality is a grave sin"
You seem to be trying to make the former Nazi Youth look less
like a bigot, because he only condemns the act, not the person.
It is like Hitler only condemned the act of being a Jew, not actually
being a Jew. A fine distinction that makes no difference.
No you're wrong from the start. Only actions are sinful not orientation.
Tendencies are not sinful.
Ok, hitler only had the tendency to order Jews, Homosexuals and
Blacks to their death, but since he never actually did it himself,
well, he's a good guy, and has a ticket to heaven waiting for him.
Some how for you people you take solace in that the Pope says
it is only the act that is the sin, and that this does not place a
badge of bigotry upon those who by virtue of their birth can do
nothing but the act. As a hermaphrodite is born with both sexes,
anyone they would have sex with would be the same sex. To
the Pope if they were to have the tendency to have sex at all,
they would be committing a grave sin. If you are a homosexual
you are going to commit homosexual acts, the very same as
if you are a heterosexual you are going to commit heterosexual
acts. It is a lie that there is a sin of homosexuality, they had no
words for nor a concept of homosexuality at the time the bible
was written.
.
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| User: "Andrealphus" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
18 Dec 2005 11:20:41 PM |
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In News 1134968530.619283.33320@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com,, newzguys at
newzguys@yahoo.com, typed this:
billu wrote:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
This is not what the pope said and it is not what the Church teaches.
So if a guy has homosexual tendencies that is not homosexuality?
Could be homosexuality, it could be bisexuality.
"Homosexuality is inconsistent with the church teachings" =
"homosexuality is a grave sin"
You seem to be trying to make the former Nazi Youth look less
like a bigot, because he only condemns the act, not the person.
It is like Hitler only condemned the act of being a Jew, not actually
being a Jew. A fine distinction that makes no difference.
From what I've heard from a couple of priest is that this new paper that the
Pope put out is for public consumption. There isn't anything new in it that
they haven't already been doing. OFFICIALLY, the church has never supposed
to have admitted open homosexuals to the priesthood. One priest told me
with a shrug that it's just business as usual.
--
Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if there be
one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of blindfolded
fear. - Thomas Jefferson
.
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| User: "Dave Bird" |
|
| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
10 Jan 2006 06:16:57 PM |
|
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In article<1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
newzguys <newzguys@yahoo.com> writes:
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
"The same applies to the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually
orientated person.' This was a discovery of only 150 years ago.
Go to the Bible and it simply is not there. Often, people speak
of the clear Biblical teaching about how to deal pastorally
with homosexual people, but that is a real howler. The Bible
knows nothing of the existence of homosexual people. No doubt
there were such people in the ancient world and others would
have had the experience of engaging with them, but they were
blind to their existence as 'homosexually orientated people'
because they did not yet have the concept of 'exclusive
homosexual orientation' with which to order their raw
experiences."
I appreciate that the Catholic Church is wrong, and the Archbishop
is right to oppose its sleazy bigotry against a vulnerable minority.
However, the terms of his argument don't make sense, and the sleazy
bigotry does have a scriptural basis. It describes as sinful or
condemned the act of "men laying with other men, as if with women."
It is plain enough what us meant: the writers think this act is a
sin, and wanting to do it is being tempted to sin. It is rather
as if the scripture described "those who look like humans but have
black skins and are in fact beasts to be enslaved" ---- you can
imagine the group insulted having a low opinion of xianity as a result.
"Without the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually orientated
person' it is therefore an impossibility for biblical writers
to refer explicitly to or claim to know actual people who filled
that concept. Even if they experienced them, they were blind to
the existence of exclusive homosexual identity. There can
therefore be no biblical text consciously directed at
'homosexually orientated people' as a distinct sub-class of
humans. The biblical authors cannot even have dreamed of such a
thing for the Bible does not work with the mid-nineteenth century
distinction between homosexuals and heterosexuals. In ancient
days it was simply a matter of working with the assumed concept
of the undifferentiated heterosexuality of males and females."
-By Dr Carnley who is a Cambridge PhD, and Archbishop of Perth
For a full history of the concept of homosexuality see:
Legal history
http://hnn.us/articles/1539.html
Medical history
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/social14.htm
-- . . : : ,; . : ' ___.
uno, dos, tres, |FUEGO| .:. .:. .:': :' .:':' :. . : (") #oH|
' ' :' : :' : .::. H_ ~~~|
< > __ ,;;,. \\::// R_) |
'-|"""(") {__}::===== ....'''' ' ' ' ___..\||/....L\. ...|
____||--|_'--/__\___ '' .--''':::::::::::::::::::::
\ / /////////////S.Coronado/////
;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^
LRonHubbard is shelled byGoats inHell.READ http://www.ronthewarhero.org
.
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
19 Dec 2005 10:33:00 AM |
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More slipshod reporting - trying to convey to the unwary reader that Carnley
is a Catholic when in fact he's an Anglican, and in not so good graces with
the Anglicans either. He's also retired. He also did not say the Pope was
lying.
But thanks for the unbiased reporting!
BAM
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
"The same applies to the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually
orientated person.' This was a discovery of only 150 years ago.
Go to the Bible and it simply is not there. Often, people speak
of the clear Biblical teaching about how to deal pastorally
with homosexual people, but that is a real howler. The Bible
knows nothing of the existence of homosexual people. No doubt
there were such people in the ancient world and others would
have had the experience of engaging with them, but they were
blind to their existence as 'homosexually orientated people'
because they did not yet have the concept of 'exclusive
homosexual orientation' with which to order their raw
experiences."
"Without the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually orientated
person' it is therefore an impossibility for biblical writers
to refer explicitly to or claim to know actual people who filled
that concept. Even if they experienced them, they were blind to
the existence of exclusive homosexual identity. There can
therefore be no biblical text consciously directed at
'homosexually orientated people' as a distinct sub-class of
humans. The biblical authors cannot even have dreamed of such a
thing for the Bible does not work with the mid-nineteenth century
distinction between homosexuals and heterosexuals. In ancient
days it was simply a matter of working with the assumed concept
of the undifferentiated heterosexuality of males and females."
-By Dr Carnley who is a Cambridge PhD, and Archbishop of Perth
For a full history of the concept of homosexuality see:
Legal history
http://hnn.us/articles/1539.html
Medical history
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/social14.htm
.
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| User: "newzguys" |
|
| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
19 Dec 2005 09:53:36 PM |
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bam wrote:
More slipshod reporting - trying to convey to the unwary reader that Carnley
is a Catholic when in fact he's an Anglican, and in not so good graces with
the Anglicans either. He's also retired. He also did not say the Pope was
lying.
But thanks for the unbiased reporting!
This coming from a group (one has to suppose, a reporter) who
has been told since 1995 by scholars and many by me personally
since 1997 as many as possible, that it is a physical impossibility
that there is a sin of homosexuality in the bible, and asked them
all one question: If the only marriage is one between a man and
a woman, who does a XXY hermaphrodite legally marry?
And yet have I seen one counter in a report, when some self
sanctimonious priest or person says homosexuality is a sin
and marriage is only between a man and a woman, with the
reply that they had no words for nor a concept of homosexuality
at the time the bible was written, and up until the 19th
century the church performed same sex marriages. So you
talk about unbiased reporting, while never a word to counter the
myth of a sin of homosexuality? That is a lie, omission of the
truth and facts is a lie. Unless you have countered these myths,
you can come down off your high pedestal you have placed yourself
and join the rag mags as having credibility.
The Archbishop of Perth said it is impossible that there is a
sin of homosexuality, the Pope said there is, despite all the
facts he has at hand, that is indeed calling the Pope a liar.
Maybe not directly, but that is only in the grabing line of the
subject.
BAM
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134789928.782533.8710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
"The same applies to the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually
orientated person.' This was a discovery of only 150 years ago.
Go to the Bible and it simply is not there. Often, people speak
of the clear Biblical teaching about how to deal pastorally
with homosexual people, but that is a real howler. The Bible
knows nothing of the existence of homosexual people. No doubt
there were such people in the ancient world and others would
have had the experience of engaging with them, but they were
blind to their existence as 'homosexually orientated people'
because they did not yet have the concept of 'exclusive
homosexual orientation' with which to order their raw
experiences."
"Without the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually orientated
person' it is therefore an impossibility for biblical writers
to refer explicitly to or claim to know actual people who filled
that concept. Even if they experienced them, they were blind to
the existence of exclusive homosexual identity. There can
therefore be no biblical text consciously directed at
'homosexually orientated people' as a distinct sub-class of
humans. The biblical authors cannot even have dreamed of such a
thing for the Bible does not work with the mid-nineteenth century
distinction between homosexuals and heterosexuals. In ancient
days it was simply a matter of working with the assumed concept
of the undifferentiated heterosexuality of males and females."
-By Dr Carnley who is a Cambridge PhD, and Archbishop of Perth
For a full history of the concept of homosexuality see:
Legal history
http://hnn.us/articles/1539.html
Medical history
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/social14.htm
.
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| User: "bam" |
|
| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
20 Dec 2005 12:30:06 AM |
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"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote
So you
talk about unbiased reporting, while never a word to counter the
myth of a sin of homosexuality?
All sex outside of marriage is a sin.
And marriage is between a man and a woman.
Take your queer crap out of here.
BAM
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| User: "€€R.L.Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
20 Dec 2005 02:55:49 AM |
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|
In article <wuNpf.14764$aS5.7316@bignews4.bellsouth.net>, "bam"
<mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote:
"newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote
So you
talk about unbiased reporting, while never a word to counter the
myth of a sin of homosexuality?
All sex outside of marriage is a sin.
** According to always-infallible Pope Gregory the Great [590 to 604],
even within marriage:
1. Thinking about it is a sin -- a.k.a. "impure thoughts."
2. Taking pleasure in it is a sin.
3. Every act of sex in marriage is so sinful that it requires penance for
its atonement.
And marriage is between a man and a woman.
** You have a dictionary!
cheers, B.
--
€ R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
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