| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"newzguys" |
| Date: |
17 Dec 2005 10:52:42 PM |
| Object: |
Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
"The same applies to the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually
orientated person.' This was a discovery of only 150 years ago.
Go to the Bible and it simply is not there. Often, people speak
of the clear Biblical teaching about how to deal pastorally
with homosexual people, but that is a real howler. The Bible
knows nothing of the existence of homosexual people. No doubt
there were such people in the ancient world and others would
have had the experience of engaging with them, but they were
blind to their existence as 'homosexually orientated people'
because they did not yet have the concept of 'exclusive
homosexual orientation' with which to order their raw
experiences."
"Without the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually orientated
person' it is therefore an impossibility for biblical writers
to refer explicitly to or claim to know actual people who filled
that concept. Even if they experienced them, they were blind to
the existence of exclusive homosexual identity. There can
therefore be no biblical text consciously directed at
'homosexually orientated people' as a distinct sub-class of
humans. The biblical authors cannot even have dreamed of such a
thing for the Bible does not work with the mid-nineteenth century
distinction between homosexuals and heterosexuals. In ancient
days it was simply a matter of working with the assumed concept
of the undifferentiated heterosexuality of males and females."
-By Dr Carnley who is a Cambridge PhD, and Archbishop of Perth
For a full history of the concept of homosexuality see:
Legal history
http://hnn.us/articles/1539.html
Medical history
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/social14.htm
...,,,,,,,,,.............,,,,,,,.,..,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.........,,,,,,..,..,,,,,,,,,,,,..........
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
23 Dec 2005 07:54:42 AM |
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On 17 Dec 2005 20:52:42 -0800, "newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote:
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
"The same applies to the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually
orientated person.' This was a discovery of only 150 years ago.
Go to the Bible and it simply is not there. Often, people speak
of the clear Biblical teaching about how to deal pastorally
with homosexual people, but that is a real howler. The Bible
knows nothing of the existence of homosexual people. No doubt
there were such people in the ancient world and others would
have had the experience of engaging with them, but they were
blind to their existence as 'homosexually orientated people'
because they did not yet have the concept of 'exclusive
homosexual orientation' with which to order their raw
experiences."
"Without the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually orientated
person' it is therefore an impossibility for biblical writers
to refer explicitly to or claim to know actual people who filled
that concept. Even if they experienced them, they were blind to
the existence of exclusive homosexual identity. There can
therefore be no biblical text consciously directed at
'homosexually orientated people' as a distinct sub-class of
humans. The biblical authors cannot even have dreamed of such a
thing for the Bible does not work with the mid-nineteenth century
distinction between homosexuals and heterosexuals. In ancient
days it was simply a matter of working with the assumed concept
of the undifferentiated heterosexuality of males and females."
-By Dr Carnley who is a Cambridge PhD, and Archbishop of Perth
He's wrong of course. Homosexuality was around before the bible
was written, and the activity is strongly condemned in the bible, to the
point where we are required to kill gay people.
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
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| User: "Pilgrim" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
24 Dec 2005 08:40:08 AM |
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He's wrong of course. Homosexuality was around before the bible
was written, and the activity is strongly condemned in the bible, to the
point where we are required to kill gay people.
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
At last the truth about gays. Here it is
Fabulous Fanny waltzed gayly through the pearly gates.
Meanwhile Pharisee Phil went straight to Hell.
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| User: "Elizabeth" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
24 Dec 2005 06:28:32 AM |
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Barry OGrady wrote:
On 17 Dec 2005 20:52:42 -0800, "newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote:
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
"The same applies to the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually
orientated person.' This was a discovery of only 150 years ago.
Go to the Bible and it simply is not there. Often, people speak
of the clear Biblical teaching about how to deal pastorally
with homosexual people, but that is a real howler. The Bible
knows nothing of the existence of homosexual people. No doubt
there were such people in the ancient world and others would
have had the experience of engaging with them, but they were
blind to their existence as 'homosexually orientated people'
because they did not yet have the concept of 'exclusive
homosexual orientation' with which to order their raw
experiences."
"Without the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually orientated
person' it is therefore an impossibility for biblical writers
to refer explicitly to or claim to know actual people who filled
that concept. Even if they experienced them, they were blind to
the existence of exclusive homosexual identity. There can
therefore be no biblical text consciously directed at
'homosexually orientated people' as a distinct sub-class of
humans. The biblical authors cannot even have dreamed of such a
thing for the Bible does not work with the mid-nineteenth century
distinction between homosexuals and heterosexuals. In ancient
days it was simply a matter of working with the assumed concept
of the undifferentiated heterosexuality of males and females."
-By Dr Carnley who is a Cambridge PhD, and Archbishop of Perth
He's wrong of course. Homosexuality was around before the bible
was written, and the activity is strongly condemned in the bible,
Dr Carnley is saying that homosexuality was around but the people of
the day didn't define those that had homosexual relationships as
"Homosexual" or those that had predominately heterosexual relationships
as "Heterosexual". The people of the day didn't define anybody as
either "homosexual" or "heterosexual"; homosexual and heterosexual
encounters took place in the normal course of a person's life.
The classification of people by their sexual preferences as
"Homosexual" or "Heterosexual" is a 19th century phenomenon and not one
etched into human history.
to the
point where we are required to kill gay people. >
Barry
This, we must not do. But I note here that this is Barry (risen from
the ashes of a year's past) who thinks a women who enjoy sex are, QED,
lesbians. G'day Barry.
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| User: "JustGB" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
24 Dec 2005 05:09:17 AM |
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Barry OGrady wrote:
On 17 Dec 2005 20:52:42 -0800, "newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote:
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
"The same applies to the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually
orientated person.' This was a discovery of only 150 years ago.
Go to the Bible and it simply is not there. Often, people speak
of the clear Biblical teaching about how to deal pastorally
with homosexual people, but that is a real howler. The Bible
knows nothing of the existence of homosexual people. No doubt
there were such people in the ancient world and others would
have had the experience of engaging with them, but they were
blind to their existence as 'homosexually orientated people'
because they did not yet have the concept of 'exclusive
homosexual orientation' with which to order their raw
experiences."
"Without the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually orientated
person' it is therefore an impossibility for biblical writers
to refer explicitly to or claim to know actual people who filled
that concept. Even if they experienced them, they were blind to
the existence of exclusive homosexual identity. There can
therefore be no biblical text consciously directed at
'homosexually orientated people' as a distinct sub-class of
humans. The biblical authors cannot even have dreamed of such a
thing for the Bible does not work with the mid-nineteenth century
distinction between homosexuals and heterosexuals. In ancient
days it was simply a matter of working with the assumed concept
of the undifferentiated heterosexuality of males and females."
-By Dr Carnley who is a Cambridge PhD, and Archbishop of Perth
He's wrong of course. Homosexuality was around before the bible
was written, and the activity is strongly condemned in the bible, to the
point where we are required to kill gay people.
Barry
'Pends what you consider the bible I guess.
JustGB
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| User: "Tom Allen" |
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| Title: Re: Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is Lying ! |
24 Dec 2005 10:06:39 AM |
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JustGB wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On 17 Dec 2005 20:52:42 -0800, "newzguys" <newzguys@yahoo.com> wrote:
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
The Catholic Archbishop Pell -
Of dangers and sins he does tell -
Tho smoking is sad,
If Gay, you're just bad,
But boy-loving priests avoid Hell!!
"The Devil," said Archbishop Pell,
"Can rule over Gays down in Hell
His fires won't be stokin'
With virgins a'smokin'
Or Paedophile priests who excel!!"
The Devil said, "Archbishop Pell
Will discover the joys of my Hell.
When he finally dies,
We'll serve him with fries
And battered and deep-fried as well."
"The Devil," said Archbishop Pell,
"Rejects Priests and smokers as well;
But if you are gay
In Hell you must stay,
And I am the one who will tell!"
The Devil said "Archbishop Pell
Has a mind that is not very well.
It flounders in dirts,
Makes Gospels perverse
And fills up my furnace quite well!"
"The Devil," said Archbishop Pell,
Invaded God's Earth here as well
With Muslim perversions
And Turkish diversions
Most everyone's going to Hell!"
The Devil said "Archbishop Pell
Is the only one certain of Hell
He's lost all the joy,
Thinks redemptions a ploy;
All thinking he just wants to quell!"
Archbishop George Pell of Melbourne
Has had all their sinners reborn
So they sent him to Sydney
Cos the Pope said, "Please rid me
Of gays, from the church they'll be torn!
And tho I hate gays I revile
That hypocrite Reverend Nile
Although anti-porny
And never found horny
He has that damned Protestant style!
Non-gays who are living in sin
As well, we will throw in the bin.
They are outside the church,
They'll be left in the lurch -
As they burn down below we can grin."
St Paul likened marriage to Hell
And is just to make the girls swell.
These days we should pay
To make the guy stay
According to Archbishop Pell!
.... by "Ærchie", from alt.jokes.limericks
Tom (sorry, couldn't resist the X-posting)
--
"Eat your weiners in buns, no condiments. Anything else is wrong."
-- Hank
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| User: "Elizabeth" |
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| Title: Former Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is incorrect |
24 Dec 2005 06:18:00 AM |
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newzguys wrote:
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
"The same applies to the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually
orientated person.' This was a discovery of only 150 years ago.
Go to the Bible and it simply is not there. Often, people speak
of the clear Biblical teaching about how to deal pastorally
with homosexual people, but that is a real howler. The Bible
knows nothing of the existence of homosexual people. No doubt
there were such people in the ancient world and others would
have had the experience of engaging with them, but they were
blind to their existence as 'homosexually orientated people'
because they did not yet have the concept of 'exclusive
homosexual orientation' with which to order their raw
experiences."
"Without the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually orientated
person' it is therefore an impossibility for biblical writers
to refer explicitly to or claim to know actual people who filled
that concept. Even if they experienced them, they were blind to
the existence of exclusive homosexual identity. There can
therefore be no biblical text consciously directed at
'homosexually orientated people' as a distinct sub-class of
humans. The biblical authors cannot even have dreamed of such a
thing for the Bible does not work with the mid-nineteenth century
distinction between homosexuals and heterosexuals. In ancient
days it was simply a matter of working with the assumed concept
of the undifferentiated heterosexuality of males and females."
-By Dr Carnley who is a Cambridge PhD, and Archbishop of Perth
For a full history of the concept of homosexuality see:
Legal history
http://hnn.us/articles/1539.html
Medical history
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/social14.htm
Actually Dr Peter Carnley is the former Archbishop of Perth, and former
Primate of the Anglican Church of Australia. He is retired now of these
jobs and divides his time between his tulip farm in the south of
Western Australia and his continued participation in ecclesiastical
committees around the world.
Dr Carnley is also a fine scholar and a former teacher of mine (in the
1980s). His scholarship with regard to the things of the collection of
writings that are known as the Bible is thorough and extensive. I think
those of us who do not have such an extensive and intensive
understanding of the original texts as well as a thorough knowledge of
the early Christian period should have regard for Dr Carnley's
statements here (whether or not we are conditioned to believe them -
given that the homosexuality/heterosexuality debate gets heated by
unschooled knee-jerk reactions).
Anglicanism, unlike Roman Catholicism, is far more open-minded about
sexuality and gender - which can only be good for the well-being of the
church universal.
I have no particular axe to grind, for I am not a member of any church
denomination. I do, howver, value scholarship.
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| User: "Peter Davidson" |
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| Title: Re: Former Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is incorrect |
24 Dec 2005 08:27:40 AM |
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"Elizabeth" <eli_abet@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:1135426680.485213.66010@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
newzguys wrote:
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
"The same applies to the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually
orientated person.' This was a discovery of only 150 years ago.
Go to the Bible and it simply is not there. Often, people speak
of the clear Biblical teaching about how to deal pastorally
with homosexual people, but that is a real howler. The Bible
knows nothing of the existence of homosexual people. No doubt
there were such people in the ancient world and others would
have had the experience of engaging with them, but they were
blind to their existence as 'homosexually orientated people'
because they did not yet have the concept of 'exclusive
homosexual orientation' with which to order their raw
experiences."
"Without the concept of an 'exclusively homosexually orientated
person' it is therefore an impossibility for biblical writers
to refer explicitly to or claim to know actual people who filled
that concept. Even if they experienced them, they were blind to
the existence of exclusive homosexual identity. There can
therefore be no biblical text consciously directed at
'homosexually orientated people' as a distinct sub-class of
humans. The biblical authors cannot even have dreamed of such a
thing for the Bible does not work with the mid-nineteenth century
distinction between homosexuals and heterosexuals. In ancient
days it was simply a matter of working with the assumed concept
of the undifferentiated heterosexuality of males and females."
-By Dr Carnley who is a Cambridge PhD, and Archbishop of Perth
For a full history of the concept of homosexuality see:
Legal history
http://hnn.us/articles/1539.html
Medical history
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/social14.htm
Actually Dr Peter Carnley is the former Archbishop of Perth, and former
Primate of the Anglican Church of Australia. He is retired now of these
jobs and divides his time between his tulip farm in the south of
Western Australia and his continued participation in ecclesiastical
committees around the world.
Dr Carnley is also a fine scholar and a former teacher of mine (in the
1980s). His scholarship with regard to the things of the collection of
writings that are known as the Bible is thorough and extensive. I think
those of us who do not have such an extensive and intensive
understanding of the original texts as well as a thorough knowledge of
the early Christian period should have regard for Dr Carnley's
statements here (whether or not we are conditioned to believe them -
given that the homosexuality/heterosexuality debate gets heated by
unschooled knee-jerk reactions). <
Over the past few years, a great many homosexuals who wanted to claim to be
Christian have been surprised, even shocked, at what the Bible actually says
about homosexuality, and have gone away much wiser, if not happier. It is
they who have been unschooled.
The mention of knee-jerk reactions is entirely inappropiate in this
connexion, though. Carnley, Spong, Griswold, Robinson and Williams have all
been unable to persuade the scholarship of the Anglican Communion as a whole
of the acceptability of homosexuality, and as a result, a permanent split at
the highest levels seems inevitable. There is cold, sober scholarship on
both sides; it's just that one side's scholarship is must not be very good.
Roman Catholicism is already far too wide of the truth to risk any more loss
of credibility by following the Robinson trail. Its unfashionable hierarchy
and its strange, medieval beliefs are already enough to discount it in the
minds of many. For good practical reasons, far too many also believe that
Romanism has made only lip service to moral commands. If the Vatican thought
it could get away with homosexuality, it would; but it knows very well what
the Bible says, and in what context it says it. If a Jesuit cannot wriggle
round it, nobody can.
Anglicanism, otoh, has less hierarchy, and no medievalisms that Baptists
don't have; it has more credibility (though not much), and more chumminess
in its homelands. That is why it chances its arm on its ignorant clientele
with homosexuality and women clergy. It is also trying to pick up the
constituency that the 'conservative' RCC can't.
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: Former Archbishop of Perth Says Pope is incorrect |
24 Dec 2005 11:42:16 AM |
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"Elizabeth" <eli_abet@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:1135426680.485213.66010@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
newzguys wrote:
The Pope says that homosexuality is a grave sin, the Archbishop
of Perth says, that is impossible.
What's impossible?
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