| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
14 Mar 2006 12:50:09 PM |
| Object: |
Are Asperger's people less religious? |
According to some biologists (Dennett, for example), there is a very
good evolutionary reason behind religion -- that is, behind belief in a
Supreme Being which controls the world. That reason is a deep-seated
desire to discern PURPOSES behind everything that goes around a person,
and to associate events with ACTORS who presumably caused these events.
It is easy to see why in a hunter-gatherer culture such desire had an
evolutionary advantage. Being unable (or not interested) to discern the
goals and motivations of one's rival or one's mate carried a heavy
reproductive penalty. Belief in ghosts did not. Hence religion evolved.
I have Asperger's Syndrome. I do not have that particular "deep seated
desire." On the contrary, it takes for me a major effort of will to
even remember that other people HAVE motivations, as opposed to being
rule-based automatons which is what I subconsciously WISH they were.
Like all Aspies, I am far more comfortable in well-defined, rule-based
(even if rules are very complex) environments of machines and orbits
and mathematics than in shifting, unreliable world of human beings.
Which is not to say I can't understand other people's motivations -- I
can, to considerable extent, but it is a learned skill which I acquired
much later in life than NT (neurotypical) people do, and it must be
exercised consciously, again unlike NT's.
And I have absolutely no yearning or desire for a Supreme Being that
controls the world.
I am not exactly an atheist -- an agnostic is a better term. If
anything, the idea that Universe was CREATED by a Supreme Being
intrigues me -- but I absolutely reject the idea of PERSONAL God who
answers prayers and has deep interest in human beings.
I find it very curious that the kind of God I can accept -- a God who
does not answer prayers, does not interefere in daily events, does no
care about human good and evil, and ultimately regards humans much the
way we view an ant farm or a bacterial petri dish, -- is horrifying to
great majority of people. Much more horrifying than the idea that God
does not exists at all. I wonder if NT's need purpose *and benevolence*
in the Universe which I simply do not need.
Which makes me wonder about why Asperger's genes persist at all, and
how old they are. Asperger's Syndrome seems to be a milder exprerssion
of autism genes. Full-blown autism is unqualifiedly bad for one's
reproductive success; anyone who met an autistic child knows he would
never survive in pre-industrial age -- he'd get trampled by the first
bull that came along. AS is not nearly as lethal, but is not conducive
to making many children in a hunter-gatherer society -- or in the
modern society for that matter. However, I wonder if AS was actually an
ADVANTAGE in between. A startified society where everyone's position is
determined from birth is much easier for an Aspie to navigate than
"follow your dreams" modern world. People's motivations matter less
when their actions are detemined by their station in life. And other
aspects of AS -- deep narrow interests, relative lack of teenage
rebelliousness, rigid adherence to procedures once learned, ability to
concentrate on a task for very long periods of time, -- seem
tailor-made for a midaeval craftsman. I suspect that autism/AS gene had
popped up as random mutation for as long as humans existed, but AS
manifestation began to survive and propagate only a few thousand years
ago. And autism manifestation did not begin to survive until 20th
century.
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| User: "GoDrex" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
14 Mar 2006 04:44:51 PM |
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<corbell5571@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1142362209.396109.242210@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
According to some biologists (Dennett, for example), there is a very
good evolutionary reason behind religion -- that is, behind belief in a
Supreme Being which controls the world. That reason is a deep-seated
desire to discern PURPOSES behind everything that goes around a person,
and to associate events with ACTORS who presumably caused these events.
It is easy to see why in a hunter-gatherer culture such desire had an
evolutionary advantage. Being unable (or not interested) to discern the
goals and motivations of one's rival or one's mate carried a heavy
reproductive penalty. Belief in ghosts did not. Hence religion evolved.
I have Asperger's Syndrome. I do not have that particular "deep seated
desire." On the contrary, it takes for me a major effort of will to
even remember that other people HAVE motivations, as opposed to being
rule-based automatons which is what I subconsciously WISH they were.
Like all Aspies, I am far more comfortable in well-defined, rule-based
(even if rules are very complex) environments of machines and orbits
and mathematics than in shifting, unreliable world of human beings.
Which is not to say I can't understand other people's motivations -- I
can, to considerable extent, but it is a learned skill which I acquired
much later in life than NT (neurotypical) people do, and it must be
exercised consciously, again unlike NT's.
And I have absolutely no yearning or desire for a Supreme Being that
controls the world.
I am not exactly an atheist -- an agnostic is a better term. If
anything, the idea that Universe was CREATED by a Supreme Being
intrigues me -- but I absolutely reject the idea of PERSONAL God who
answers prayers and has deep interest in human beings.
I find it very curious that the kind of God I can accept -- a God who
does not answer prayers, does not interefere in daily events, does no
care about human good and evil, and ultimately regards humans much the
way we view an ant farm or a bacterial petri dish, -- is horrifying to
great majority of people. Much more horrifying than the idea that God
does not exists at all. I wonder if NT's need purpose *and benevolence*
in the Universe which I simply do not need.
Which makes me wonder about why Asperger's genes persist at all, and
how old they are. Asperger's Syndrome seems to be a milder exprerssion
of autism genes. Full-blown autism is unqualifiedly bad for one's
reproductive success; anyone who met an autistic child knows he would
never survive in pre-industrial age -- he'd get trampled by the first
bull that came along. AS is not nearly as lethal, but is not conducive
to making many children in a hunter-gatherer society -- or in the
modern society for that matter. However, I wonder if AS was actually an
ADVANTAGE in between. A startified society where everyone's position is
determined from birth is much easier for an Aspie to navigate than
"follow your dreams" modern world. People's motivations matter less
when their actions are detemined by their station in life. And other
aspects of AS -- deep narrow interests, relative lack of teenage
rebelliousness, rigid adherence to procedures once learned, ability to
concentrate on a task for very long periods of time, -- seem
tailor-made for a midaeval craftsman. I suspect that autism/AS gene had
popped up as random mutation for as long as humans existed, but AS
manifestation began to survive and propagate only a few thousand years
ago. And autism manifestation did not begin to survive until 20th
century.
I know a guy with AS who likes to think he's incredibly logical (though his
his understanding of the writen word is highly suspect) and yet he's a
faithful catholic.
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| User: "Stephen Wilson" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
14 Mar 2006 04:37:48 PM |
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<corbell5571@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1142362209.396109.242210@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
According to some biologists (Dennett, for example), there is a very
good evolutionary reason behind religion -- that is, behind belief in a
Supreme Being which controls the world. That reason is a deep-seated
desire to discern PURPOSES behind everything that goes around a person,
and to associate events with ACTORS who presumably caused these events.
It is easy to see why in a hunter-gatherer culture such desire had an
evolutionary advantage. Being unable (or not interested) to discern the
goals and motivations of one's rival or one's mate carried a heavy
reproductive penalty. Belief in ghosts did not. Hence religion evolved.
This one is a nearly 40, self-confirmed batchelor with no religous beliefs.
Other than that while many religions may help certain people, not one has
the monopoly on truth. Yet how people living in the 21st century continue to
take stories in the Bible literally is totally beyond me.
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| User: "The V person" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
14 Mar 2006 04:20:42 PM |
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<corbell5571@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1142362209.396109.242210@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
According to some biologists (Dennett, for example), there is a very
good evolutionary reason behind religion -- that is, behind belief in a
Supreme Being which controls the world. That reason is a deep-seated
desire to discern PURPOSES behind everything that goes around a person,
and to associate events with ACTORS who presumably caused these events.
Don't make the mistake to think that all
aspie's think like you do :)
That would be rather aspie in itself....
V.
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| User: "Kirayoshi" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
14 Mar 2006 05:55:29 PM |
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"The V person" <Victorious@cantbebothered.net> schreef in bericht
news:_kHRf.53920$H71.46943@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
Don't make the mistake to think that all
aspie's think like you do :)
That would be rather aspie in itself....
V.
Haha, I made that misstake many times in the past and sometimes I still make
that misstake :)
I thought all autistics had to be non religious and political left wing, I
think still there are enough left wing auties, but I know now that there are
probably more religious autistics than non-religious, at least the autistics
that I know :)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
14 Mar 2006 06:48:50 PM |
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Don't make the mistake to think that all
aspie's think like you do :)
That would be rather aspie in itself....
That's why the original post title is a question. :)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
14 Mar 2006 06:48:55 PM |
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Don't make the mistake to think that all
aspie's think like you do :)
That would be rather aspie in itself....
That's why the original post title is a question. :)
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| User: "Gareeth" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
14 Mar 2006 05:55:13 PM |
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wrote:
I have Asperger's Syndrome. I do not have that particular "deep seated
desire." On the contrary, it takes for me a major effort of will to
even remember that other people HAVE motivations, as opposed to being
rule-based automatons which is what I subconsciously WISH they were.
It's a mistake to think because something is true for you it is true for all
people with ASD's. If anything I am more religious than most. I don't know
that is comes from a desire to discern purpose though. I have just always
been sure there was a God.
Gareeth
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
15 Mar 2006 07:30:13 AM |
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Gareeth <gareethnews@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
I have just always been sure there was a God.
That's impossible, actually. You had to first be introduced to the
concept. Nobody is born a believer.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Gareeth" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
15 Mar 2006 01:21:08 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Gareeth <gareethnews@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
I have just always been sure there was a God.
That's impossible, actually. You had to first be introduced to the
concept. Nobody is born a believer.
Obviously not from the second I was out but from very early. No one
introduced me to it. My parents are athiests. The certainty was just there.
Gareeth
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
16 Mar 2006 06:44:34 PM |
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Gareeth <gareethnews@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Gareeth <gareethnews@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
I have just always been sure there was a God.
That's impossible, actually. You had to first be introduced to the
concept. Nobody is born a believer.
Obviously not from the second I was out but from very early. No one
introduced me to it. My parents are athiests. The certainty was just there.
I don't believe you when you say that nobody introduced you to the
concept of god. Surely you heard about it from somewhere besides
your parents, if indeed they were atheists and never talked about some
god to you. A grandma or grandpa, a friend or cousin or teacher or
neighbor or something. Maybe you just can't remember because you
were too young, but I don't believe you came up with the concept all
by yourself.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Caitriona aka GoddessKitten [and the email addy is wrong]" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
15 Mar 2006 03:52:32 PM |
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Gareeth wrote:
Elroy Willis wrote:
Gareeth <gareethnews@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
I have just always been sure there was a God.
That's impossible, actually. You had to first be introduced to the
concept. Nobody is born a believer.
Obviously not from the second I was out but from very early. No one
introduced me to it. My parents are athiests. The certainty was just there.
Gareeth,
That's not so hard for me to believe. I was 7yo when I formally made
my profession of faith at the church where we attended. It took me a
year to convince the preacher and my grandmother that I knew what I was
talking about.
Kitten
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| User: "Jim07D6" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
15 Mar 2006 04:23:59 PM |
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"Caitriona (aka GoddessKitten [and the email addy is wrong])"
<kitten@whitepine.com> said:
Gareeth wrote:
Elroy Willis wrote:
Gareeth <gareethnews@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
I have just always been sure there was a God.
That's impossible, actually. You had to first be introduced to the
concept. Nobody is born a believer.
Obviously not from the second I was out but from very early. No one
introduced me to it. My parents are athiests. The certainty was just there.
Gareeth,
That's not so hard for me to believe. I was 7yo when I formally made
my profession of faith at the church where we attended. It took me a
year to convince the preacher and my grandmother that I knew what I was
talking about.
That was quick! I don't think any theists know what they are talking
about.
--- Jim07D6
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| User: "Caitriona aka GoddessKitten [and the email addy is wrong]" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
15 Mar 2006 04:33:59 PM |
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Jim07D6 wrote:
That was quick! I don't think any theists know what they are talking
about.
That's your perrogative. I don't see how atheists can't see God's hand
in all that is about us.
Kitten
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| User: "Steve O" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
15 Mar 2006 04:47:17 PM |
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"Caitriona (aka GoddessKitten [and the email addy is wrong])"
<kitten@whitepine.com> wrote in message
news:1142462039.791462.140540@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
Jim07D6 wrote:
That was quick! I don't think any theists know what they are talking
about.
That's your perrogative. I don't see how atheists can't see God's hand
in all that is about us.
Kitten
What hand?
--
Steve O
a.a. #2240
"Apparently, as I understand it , I am supposed to repent for being the way
that God made me, and then God will save me from God?"
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
16 Mar 2006 08:11:38 AM |
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"Caitriona (aka GoddessKitten [and the email addy is wrong])"
<kitten@whitepine.com> wrote in message
news:1142462039.791462.140540@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
Jim07D6 wrote:
That was quick! I don't think any theists know what they are talking
about.
That's your perrogative. I don't see how atheists can't see God's hand
in all that is about us.
Care to give an exaample of this god's hand?
BTW, which god?
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
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| User: "Stephen Wilson" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
15 Mar 2006 05:32:52 PM |
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"Caitriona (aka GoddessKitten [and the email addy is wrong])"
<kitten@whitepine.com> wrote in message
news:1142462039.791462.140540@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
Jim07D6 wrote:
That was quick! I don't think any theists know what they are talking
about.
That's your perrogative. I don't see how atheists can't see God's hand
in all that is about us.
What do you mean when you talk of God? Do you believe in the Bible?
Literally or symbolically?
I find it amazing that, here we are in the 21st century, and there are still
people who can take the Bible stories literally. Take the very first story -
Genesis. Here we have a talking serpent. We have such myths as Noah and his
ark. So... Noah collected 2 of every kind of animal? He travelled to every
continent in the world (a world which hadn't even been mapped at that time),
in a ship large enough to house every single animal as well as its food? He
managed to keep all those animals alive and healthy? He managed to get a
fertile male and female of every animal (and not just of every animal, but
also of every variety of every mammal, bird, insect, reptile, etc.) and
prevent them from killing each other? Noah lived for 950 years? And apart
from all those impossibilities, there's then the idea that God felt it
necessary to kill off every human other than Noah and his family in the
first place. Why use a flood to do this? Why was every other human such a
disaster? Did this "resetting" of life on planet Earth actually achieve
anything? Where did our genetic variety come from if we're all descendents
of Noah and his family?
The New Testament is equally as unbelievable. Just look at the Christmas
story. These 3 Kings that came to visit Jesus for instance. Well for a
start, they were an unknown number of wise men. And just how exactly did
they locate this baby? They followed a star. Have you ever managed to follow
a star, and determine exactly which house it was hanging over?
And I could pick out hundreds of contradictions in the Bible. For instance,
did you know that the gospel of Matthew tells us that Joseph's father was
called Jacob, whilst the gospel of Luke states that it was Heli?
Anyway, regardless of whether you take the Bible literally or not, you state
the evidence for God is all around us. I assume therefore you think the
universe is too fantastic to have simply come into being all on its own.
Well in that case, how did God simply come into being all on his own -
surely the creator of the universe must be even more fantastic which is
evidence that he must have had a creator...
And if there really is a God, why does he allow so many bad things to go on?
When there are diseases, hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, that kill millions
of innocent people, does he just sit back, watch it happen for entertainment
and laugh to himself? When Christians, Jews and Muslims who worship God each
day can't agree with each other and kill each other in God's name, is he
pleased?
Come to that, Christians can't even stand each other - e.g. Protestants
versus Catholics. Yet I see no evidence of God putting in an appearance and
clearing up all the problems and letting all his people know, once and for
all, who has got it right.
There are hundreds of religions existing in the world today, and the
believers of those religions each believe that they're the only ones who
have got it right. Sorry, but no. Religion makes little sense to me...
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| User: "toto" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
15 Mar 2006 06:34:45 PM |
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On 15 Mar 2006 14:33:59 -0800, "Caitriona (aka GoddessKitten [and the
email addy is wrong])" <kitten@whitepine.com> wrote:
Jim07D6 wrote:
That was quick! I don't think any theists know what they are talking
about.
That's your perrogative. I don't see how atheists can't see God's hand
in all that is about us.
Mostly, I see no *need* for a God and I don't see his hand in
anything. I think that we can find natural explanations for things.
I also think that people made god up because they were afraid.
At first they were afraid of nature and the things that might happen
to them and then they became afraid to take responsibility for their
own lives and actions.
Kitten
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
15 Mar 2006 06:39:58 PM |
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On 15 Mar 2006 14:33:59 -0800, "Caitriona (aka GoddessKitten [and the
email addy is wrong])" <kitten@whitepine.com> wrote:
Jim07D6 wrote:
That was quick! I don't think any theists know what they are talking
about.
That's your perrogative. I don't see how atheists can't see God's hand
in all that is about us.
Sigh. Why should anybody even consider the belief object of somebody
else's religion? In the real world outside it, it is a totally
unjustified presumption.
Kitten
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| User: "Caitriona aka GoddessKitten [and the email addy is wrong]" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
15 Mar 2006 10:17:34 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On 15 Mar 2006 14:33:59 -0800, "Caitriona (aka GoddessKitten [and the
email addy is wrong])" <kitten@whitepine.com> wrote:
Jim07D6 wrote:
That was quick! I don't think any theists know what they are talking
about.
That's your perrogative. I don't see how atheists can't see God's hand
in all that is about us.
Sigh. Why should anybody even consider the belief object of somebody
else's religion? In the real world outside it, it is a totally
unjustified presumption.
We each have our own perspectives. None of us see the world in the
same way. To me, God's work is evident in the patterns that exist in
the world. Just look at the patterns that led Fiobonacci to develop
his mathematical statements. The logic in all of creation is too
obvious, to me. Because of that, I am puzzled by those who make
statements such as, "I don't think any theists know what they are
talking about." My perception of everything around us, my experience
of this world, is too different than theirs for me to be able to
understand where they're coming from.
Kitten
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
16 Mar 2006 08:34:03 AM |
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"Caitriona (aka GoddessKitten [and the email addy is wrong])"
<kitten@whitepine.com> wrote in message
news:1142482654.274113.92750@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On 15 Mar 2006 14:33:59 -0800, "Caitriona (aka GoddessKitten [and the
email addy is wrong])" <kitten@whitepine.com> wrote:
Jim07D6 wrote:
That was quick! I don't think any theists know what they are talking
about.
That's your perrogative. I don't see how atheists can't see God's hand
in all that is about us.
Sigh. Why should anybody even consider the belief object of somebody
else's religion? In the real world outside it, it is a totally
unjustified presumption.
We each have our own perspectives. None of us see the world in the
same way. To me, God's work is evident in the patterns that exist in
the world. Just look at the patterns that led Fiobonacci to develop
his mathematical statements. The logic in all of creation is too
obvious, to me. Because of that, I am puzzled by those who make
statements such as, "I don't think any theists know what they are
talking about." My perception of everything around us, my experience
of this world, is too different than theirs for me to be able to
understand where they're coming from.
Interesting, but is mere conjecture.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
16 Mar 2006 06:46:33 PM |
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On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:34:03 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
- Refer: <47tb6tFglo7rU1@individual.net>
"Caitriona (aka GoddessKitten [and the email addy is wrong])"
<kitten@whitepine.com> wrote in message
news:1142482654.274113.92750@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On 15 Mar 2006 14:33:59 -0800, "Caitriona (aka GoddessKitten [and the
email addy is wrong])" <kitten@whitepine.com> wrote:
Jim07D6 wrote:
That was quick! I don't think any theists know what they are talking
about.
That's your perrogative. I don't see how atheists can't see God's hand
in all that is about us.
Sigh. Why should anybody even consider the belief object of somebody
else's religion? In the real world outside it, it is a totally
unjustified presumption.
We each have our own perspectives. None of us see the world in the
same way. To me, God's work is evident in the patterns that exist in
the world. Just look at the patterns that led Fiobonacci to develop
his mathematical statements. The logic in all of creation is too
obvious, to me. Because of that, I am puzzled by those who make
statements such as, "I don't think any theists know what they are
talking about." My perception of everything around us, my experience
of this world, is too different than theirs for me to be able to
understand where they're coming from.
Interesting, but is mere conjecture.
Interesting?
It is just another "argument from ignorance" wearing a party-frock and
lipstick.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
17 Mar 2006 09:03:51 AM |
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"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:nl1k125ipgqdnrnaip1jr54n36r2ohh8v4@4ax.com...
On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:34:03 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
- Refer: <47tb6tFglo7rU1@individual.net>
"Caitriona (aka GoddessKitten [and the email addy is wrong])"
<kitten@whitepine.com> wrote in message
news:1142482654.274113.92750@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On 15 Mar 2006 14:33:59 -0800, "Caitriona (aka GoddessKitten [and the
email addy is wrong])" <kitten@whitepine.com> wrote:
Jim07D6 wrote:
That was quick! I don't think any theists know what they are talking
about.
That's your perrogative. I don't see how atheists can't see God's
hand
in all that is about us.
Sigh. Why should anybody even consider the belief object of somebody
else's religion? In the real world outside it, it is a totally
unjustified presumption.
We each have our own perspectives. None of us see the world in the
same way. To me, God's work is evident in the patterns that exist in
the world. Just look at the patterns that led Fiobonacci to develop
his mathematical statements. The logic in all of creation is too
obvious, to me. Because of that, I am puzzled by those who make
statements such as, "I don't think any theists know what they are
talking about." My perception of everything around us, my experience
of this world, is too different than theirs for me to be able to
understand where they're coming from.
Interesting, but is mere conjecture.
Interesting?
It is just another "argument from ignorance" wearing a party-frock and
lipstick.
Well, the party-frock and lipstick sure are interesting! :)
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
17 Mar 2006 07:53:36 PM |
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On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 10:03:51 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
- Refer: <4801aoFhgtqpU1@individual.net>
"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:nl1k125ipgqdnrnaip1jr54n36r2ohh8v4@4ax.com...
On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:34:03 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
- Refer: <47tb6tFglo7rU1@individual.net>
"Caitriona (aka GoddessKitten [and the email addy is wrong])"
<kitten@whitepine.com> wrote in message
news:1142482654.274113.92750@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On 15 Mar 2006 14:33:59 -0800, "Caitriona (aka GoddessKitten [and the
email addy is wrong])" <kitten@whitepine.com> wrote:
Jim07D6 wrote:
That was quick! I don't think any theists know what they are talking
about.
That's your perrogative. I don't see how atheists can't see God's
hand
in all that is about us.
Sigh. Why should anybody even consider the belief object of somebody
else's religion? In the real world outside it, it is a totally
unjustified presumption.
We each have our own perspectives. None of us see the world in the
same way. To me, God's work is evident in the patterns that exist in
the world. Just look at the patterns that led Fiobonacci to develop
his mathematical statements. The logic in all of creation is too
obvious, to me. Because of that, I am puzzled by those who make
statements such as, "I don't think any theists know what they are
talking about." My perception of everything around us, my experience
of this world, is too different than theirs for me to be able to
understand where they're coming from.
Interesting, but is mere conjecture.
Interesting?
It is just another "argument from ignorance" wearing a party-frock and
lipstick.
Well, the party-frock and lipstick sure are interesting! :)
It might be interesting, except for the fact that the argument they
are tarting up is coming on for 60,000 years old, and has not aged at
all well.
Not really my type, you understand, even with a ton of lipstick, and a
Yves Saint Laurent original...
--
http://NewsGuy.com/overview.htm 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
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| User: "Caitriona aka GoddessKitten [and the email addy is wrong]" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
16 Mar 2006 09:02:17 PM |
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Michael Gray wrote:
<snipped>
Interesting?
It is just another "argument from ignorance" wearing a party-frock and
lipstick.
mmm... yeah. Here's a bit more "argument from ignorance" from the NY
Times.
March 16, 2006
Math Professor Wins a Coveted Religion Award
By DENNIS OVERBYE
Continuing a recent trend in which the world's richest religion prize
has gone to scientists, John D. Barrow, a British cosmologist whose
work has explored the relationship between life and the laws of
physics, was named the winner yesterday of the 2006 Templeton Prize
for progress or research in spiritual matters.
Dr. Barrow will receive the $1.4 million prize during a ceremony at
Buckingham Palace on May 3. The prize was created in 1972 by the
philanthropist Sir John Marks Templeton, who specified that its
monetary value always exceed that of the Nobel Prize. Five of the
last six winners have been scientists. Asked about this, Dr. Barrow
said, "Maybe they ask the most interesting questions."
Dr. Barrow, 53, a mathematical sciences professor at the University
of Cambridge, is best known for his work on the anthropic principle,
which has been the subject of debate in physics circles in recent
years. Life as we know it would be impossible, he and others have
pointed out, if certain constants of nature =F3 numbers denoting the
relative strengths of fundamental forces and masses of elementary
particles =F3 had values much different from the ones they have,
leading to the appearance that the universe was "well tuned for
life," as Dr. Barrow put it.
In a news release, the prize organizers said of Dr. Barrow's work:
"It has also given theologians and philosophers inescapable questions
to consider when examining the very essence of belief, the nature of
the universe, and humanity's place in it."
Dr. Barrow is the co-author of "The Anthropic Cosmological
Principle," a primer on the subject, as well as 16 other books, more
than 400 scientific papers, and a prizewinning play, "Infinities."
Asked about his religious beliefs, Dr. Barrow said he and his family
were members of the United Reformed Church in Cambridge, which
teaches "a traditional deistic picture of the universe," he said.
Noting that Charles Darwin is buried in Westminster Abbey, Dr. Barrow
said that in contrast with the so-called culture wars in America,
science and religion had long coexisted peaceably in England. "The
concept of a lawful universe with order that can be understood and
relied upon emerged largely out of religious beliefs about the nature
of God," he said.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
17 Mar 2006 01:16:06 PM |
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Caitriona GoddessKitten <kitten@whitepine.com> wrote in alt.atheism
<snip>
Asked about his religious beliefs, Dr. Barrow said he and his family
were members of the United Reformed Church in Cambridge, which
teaches "a traditional deistic picture of the universe," he said.
The deistic view doesn't include a god who meddles in the lives
of individual people. It can't "save" people or make them live
forever, and didn't need to pretend to be dead for three days
in order to forgive people for being imperfect.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Rowe" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
18 Mar 2006 03:00:56 AM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Caitriona (GoddessKitten) wrote:
<snip>
Asked about his religious beliefs, Dr. Barrow said he and
his family were members of the United Reformed Church in
Cambridge, which teaches "a traditional deistic picture
of the universe," he said.
The deistic view doesn't include a god who meddles in the
lives of individual people. It can't "save" people or make
them live forever, and didn't need to pretend to be dead for
three days in order to forgive people for being imperfect.
I know this is a very trolly question, but what point is there
in believing in a God, if "He" doesn't actually do anything?
Or is it a "I'm not going to do anything, but if you don't
believe in me, then you're going to burn" sort of deal? :\
Myself... somewhere between Atheist and Germanic Pagan :)
Tom
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
18 Mar 2006 08:35:33 AM |
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Rowe <rowerickenbacker@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Caitriona (GoddessKitten) wrote:
<snip>
Asked about his religious beliefs, Dr. Barrow said he and
his family were members of the United Reformed Church in
Cambridge, which teaches "a traditional deistic picture
of the universe," he said.
The deistic view doesn't include a god who meddles in the
lives of individual people. It can't "save" people or make
them live forever, and didn't need to pretend to be dead for
three days in order to forgive people for being imperfect.
I know this is a very trolly question, but what point is there
in believing in a God, if "He" doesn't actually do anything?
Or is it a "I'm not going to do anything, but if you don't
believe in me, then you're going to burn" sort of deal? :\
I'm not sure if most deists believe in heaven and hell, actually.
Perhaps they believe their god holds all the universal laws
of physics together, or keeps them from changing, so in effect,
the god actually does do something, but on a universal scale,
instead of a personal scale.
What I'd say to them is that if their god has the power to
create and hold the universe together, why can't it do something
about all the cosmic space debris out there? If it can control
gravity, why are all the moons and planets covered in impact
craters?
The same questions can be asked of all religious people who
think their god created and maintains the universe. Not a very
perfect god for sure. More of a lazy or sloppy god, I'd say.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Rowe" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
18 Mar 2006 03:17:02 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Rowe wrote:
Elroy Willis wrote:
The deistic view doesn't include a god who meddles in the lives
of individual people. It can't "save" people or make them live
forever, and didn't need to pretend to be dead for three days in
order to forgive people for being imperfect.
I know this is a very trolly question, but what point is there in
believing in a God, if "He" doesn't actually do anything? Or is it
a "I'm not going to do anything, but if you don't believe in me,
then you're going to burn" sort of deal? :\
I'm not sure if most deists believe in heaven and hell, actually.
Perhaps they believe their god holds all the universal laws of
physics together, or keeps them from changing, so in effect, the god
actually does do something, but on a universal scale, instead of a
personal scale.
What I'd say to them is that if their god has the power to create and
hold the universe together, why can't it do something about all the
cosmic space debris out there? If it can control gravity, why are
all the moons and planets covered in impact craters?
I suppose because that would be changing specific objects
or events... though one would suppose if the universe was
well designed enough in the *beginning*, then it would be
predestined from then on, as all of our judgements should
be based on our previous experiences, and so on...
The same questions can be asked of all religious people who think
their god created and maintains the universe. Not a very perfect god
for sure. More of a lazy or sloppy god, I'd say.
Certainly. I think it's beyond the existing literature.
We can't really know what a god's (not *the* God...)
intentions were for creating the Universe, because all of
the religious bibles and texts are man-made works (even
if somehow divinely inspired) so you've got to assume
that certain parts would have been "glossed over" or
exaggerated to fit the bias of the people writing it.
Of course, the existence of a god is mere speculation in
itself (being a belief, rather than a fact) but I guess
there isn't conclusive proof against a god as we're not
omniscient or omnipresent, and can only guess what
happened when the Universe (and later, planet) started.
But I specifically don't trust *people*, and I *know*
that even if a bible was divinely inspired - it would
only be "based on a true story". So if there is a god,
then who knows what its intentions were? I speculate.
Tom
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| User: "Chartreuse Polyomino" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
16 Mar 2006 11:06:15 PM |
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If the physical constants had to be "just so" to make the universe work, it
sounds like God did not have much choice in the way the universe was made..
"Caitriona (aka GoddessKitten [and the email addy is wrong])"
<kitten@whitepine.com> wrote in message
news:1142564537.707779.171640@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Michael Gray wrote:
<snipped>
Interesting?
It is just another "argument from ignorance" wearing a party-frock and
lipstick.
mmm... yeah. Here's a bit more "argument from ignorance" from the NY
Times.
March 16, 2006
Math Professor Wins a Coveted Religion Award
By DENNIS OVERBYE
Continuing a recent trend in which the world's richest religion prize
has gone to scientists, John D. Barrow, a British cosmologist whose
work has explored the relationship between life and the laws of
physics, was named the winner yesterday of the 2006 Templeton Prize
for progress or research in spiritual matters.
Dr. Barrow will receive the $1.4 million prize during a ceremony at
Buckingham Palace on May 3. The prize was created in 1972 by the
philanthropist Sir John Marks Templeton, who specified that its
monetary value always exceed that of the Nobel Prize. Five of the
last six winners have been scientists. Asked about this, Dr. Barrow
said, "Maybe they ask the most interesting questions."
Dr. Barrow, 53, a mathematical sciences professor at the University
of Cambridge, is best known for his work on the anthropic principle,
which has been the subject of debate in physics circles in recent
years. Life as we know it would be impossible, he and others have
pointed out, if certain constants of nature ó numbers denoting the
relative strengths of fundamental forces and masses of elementary
particles ó had values much different from the ones they have,
leading to the appearance that the universe was "well tuned for
life," as Dr. Barrow put it.
In a news release, the prize organizers said of Dr. Barrow's work:
"It has also given theologians and philosophers inescapable questions
to consider when examining the very essence of belief, the nature of
the universe, and humanity's place in it."
Dr. Barrow is the co-author of "The Anthropic Cosmological
Principle," a primer on the subject, as well as 16 other books, more
than 400 scientific papers, and a prizewinning play, "Infinities."
Asked about his religious beliefs, Dr. Barrow said he and his family
were members of the United Reformed Church in Cambridge, which
teaches "a traditional deistic picture of the universe," he said.
Noting that Charles Darwin is buried in Westminster Abbey, Dr. Barrow
said that in contrast with the so-called culture wars in America,
science and religion had long coexisted peaceably in England. "The
concept of a lawful universe with order that can be understood and
relied upon emerged largely out of religious beliefs about the nature
of God," he said.
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Are Asperger's people less religious? |
17 Mar 2006 03:58:43 AM |
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On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 05:06:15 GMT, "Chartreuse Polyomino"
<daveleaf@mchsi.com> wrote:
- Refer: <btrSf.867121$xm3.496820@attbi_s21>
If the physical constants had to be "just so" to make the universe work, it
sounds like God did not have much choice in the way the universe was made..
:
Or infinitely more likely: there is no "god", (or are no "gods"), in
the first place.
The "Problem" vanishes completely.
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