Bill:

"We're very competent at engineering and completely inept at
philosophy. Philosophers try to construct their systems with the same
precision as a bridge or a building or a computer, and fail utterly.
The reason is that philosophers have prejudices and preferences, likes
and dislikes ideas of what -ought- to be or not be. Yet even with the
long history of abject failure at devising workable philosophies,
there is still nothing approaching consensus on how we should
understand the world. Strangely, every civilization and most cultures
depends -fundamentally- on some philosophy."

from:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/727375ca...

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

Sure Bill. We all suffer from imperfections to one degree or another.
But why single out philosophers Bill? The study and practice of
philosophy can provide a useful foundation of underlying inner peace.

I have always told you that humans are imperfect. I have always told
you that what is logical is not always practical when it comes to
humans...so what.

Scientists the supposed gods of logic are no better. Prejudiced and
small minded just as most other humans are.

Look at the 'clovis first' controversy for just one example. People as
well as scientists get attached to their views and cannot imagine it
any other way. Once people become entrenched they suffer from
blindness. Goes for theists as well as atheists - scientists and
philosophers alike.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=470.0

On another list, a critic that didn't like philosophers told me: "Are
not philosophers merely the confused and disaffected trying to make
sense of their plight?"

We (humans) just do the best we can with what we got...prejudices and
all.

When we want to fly like a bird we do...just not exactly like a bird
and we crash sometimes.

Same with philosophy. We do the best we can with what we got.

And being humans their are al sorts of degrees of perfection and
imperfection with our work.

But the basis of philosophy is joy, as the contemplative life finds it
joy in discovering the truth.

Huxley gives us some insight into philosophers.

"The highest object that human beings can set before themselves is not
the pursuit of any such chimera as the annihilation of the unknown: it
is simply the unwearied endeavor to remove its boundaries a little
further from our little sphere of action."

Aristotle also reminds us "It is the mark of an educated mind to rest
satisfied with the degree of precision which the nature of the subject
admits and not to seek exactness where only an approximation is
possible."

I heard a story one time in a Yoga lecture that offers some useful
advice to the perfectionist that is having trouble being a
perfectionist

"Range is of the ego - Form is of the soul."

The only thing we need to be concerned with is how is our form and
give our best efforts at discovering truth and virtue.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=627.0

In the classical sense, a philosopher is a doctor of the soul. It is
unfortunate that in modern times philosophers have moved away from
this purpose.

Here are the 5 values of virtues Socrates stood for:

Truth
Justice
Courage
Proportionality or Moderation
Wisdom

All these virtues are ephemeral in nature and not concrete like
bridges and roads Bill. And even though we humans do good work at
engineering as you mentioned Bill. We still fail miserably sometimes
and our bridges and roads collapse. Like all things human and
requiring judgments to be made - sometimes our judgments have errors
in them.

You see Bill, all our actions have consequences, and many of our
actions produce consequences that end up destroying peace. Our actions
destroy our peace as well as the inner peace of others. And if we do
not ask the hard questions, we will fail much more miserably than we
do now at living virtuous lives. And many times the best we can do is
find the 'best fit' answer to a question and sometimes this best fit
answer is the lesser of two evils.

Personally, philosophy has played a big role in yielding peace
dividends to me. But, just as water and air sustain life, water and
air also will also destroy life when in excess. So it goes with most
other things when they are out of balance...especially our thinking.
Sure some people as well as philosophers get stuck in 'Over Thinkers
Syndrome' They get stuck trying to answer the unanswerable.

Myself?

I am a Practical Philosopher, as well as a practitioner of simplicity.
Once in a while I look at the unanswerable along the way, but I try
not to get lost in it.

The real problem is not in the discussion of concepts that no human is
able to answer. We do not think in a vacuum, so thoughts 'come and go'
and who can say where they will lead? But as for 'when they go' and
'how much space' they take up in our life and in our heads...that is
our choice.

You see, the bigger problem arises when we lose ourselves in such
thought or become addicted to it as a distraction from living. And, as
all addictions do, they cause us detrimental problems in life due
excesses

"Just as water floes downhill without effort but requires outside
forces and energy to make it move uphill. So the human consciousness
falls to its lowest levels of the senses without effort and energies
to make our consciousness gravitate to more than our base desires." ~
Hindu Sage

Take care,

V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2

Bill:

"We're very competent at engineering and completely inept at
philosophy. Philosophers try to construct their systems with the same
precision as a bridge or a building or a computer, and fail utterly.
The reason is that philosophers have prejudices and preferences, likes
and dislikes ideas of what -ought- to be or not be. Yet even with the
long history of abject failure at devising workable philosophies,
there is still nothing approaching consensus on how we should
understand the world. Strangely, every civilization and most cultures
depends -fundamentally- on some philosophy."