| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Pastor Dave" |
| Date: |
26 Aug 2005 03:30:37 PM |
| Object: |
Are the Atheists Right? |
Are the Atheists Right?
The atheists...
They love to tell you how Christianity has taken
more lives than anything else. This is NOT TRUE!
1) It is not "Christian" to murder people because
they do not believe in Christ as Savior.
2) Stop looking at what fallible man does and then
turn around and blame Christianity. Man killing people
and doing it in the name of Christ, does not mean that
there is a problem with Christianity. It means that
there is a problem with man.
The atheists, who are and have to be evolutionists,
love to ask the following question...
"If there's a God, how come there is so many bad things
happening in the world?". If you want to know the
answer to that, why don't you look in the mirror? Man
loves to do evil and then blame God for the results!
Here is the whole issue, summed up, because you see,
the atheist actually likes to ask a question that has a
"no win" situation. Let me explain...
1) If God allows man to do what man decides to do,
that is called "free will" and the atheist complains.
Yet, if God stopped all evil from happening, then man
(if he could), would point his finger at God and say,
"If you loved me, you would let me make my own
decisions and learn from my own mistakes!".
2) If God allows man to make his own decisions
and his own mistakes, man points at God and says,
"If you really are God, how can you allow all of this
evil to exist?!".
You see what I mean? The atheist asks a rigged
question and tries to stack the deck. Thus, his/her
question is not honest to begin with.
As far as Creation and evolution, they love to say
the following...
"Creation is NOT science and no REAL scientist
believes in Creation! It does not offer any
testable theory!"
They also love to compare it to gravity, yet,
Sir Isaac Newton was a six day Creationist!
They also love to say that if you don't believe
in evolution as a scientific fact, how do you
explain using your computer, which is based
on evolutionary science?
Huh?! That isn't anywhere NEAR being true!
It is NOT based on "evolutionary science",
nor is science even evolution.
In fact, the inventors of computer science
and electronics, were six day Creationists!
The next time someone tells you that "Creation
scientists are not real scientists", you provide
them with this message, which shows that not
only was the founder of the scientific method
a creationist, but many of the branches of
science, were invented by creationists, who
all believed in a literal six day creation. To deny
evolution is not to deny God, nor nature, nor
science. In fact, to deny evolution, is to uphold
science, the truth of God and the nature that
God created. And the greatest scientists in
the world knew that. In fact, the greatest
scientific philosopher of all time, Dr. Karl Popper,
said that evolution is not a law, nor a theory
and that it doesn't even rise to the level of an
hypothesis. He said it is nothing more than a
metaphysical research program.
Here is some information, for those who are
interested in THE TRUTH...
From: The Root of the Problem - Dr. James Kennedy
WHAT IS TRUE?
Let us take a little deeper look. First of all, who
invented science? It was Francis Bacon, who is
credited with having been the inventor of the
scientific method, that combination of induction
and deduction, of hypothesis and proof (empirical
proof). Bacon was a devout Christian. He believed
in God. He believed in Christ, he believed in the
Bible, and he believed in Creation. He said that
God had given us two books. He has given us
the book of nature to understand the world, and
the book of Scriptures-and we are to read both
of them, said the founder of science. Wasn't a
Christian? Hardly.
Who was the greatest scientist that ever lived?
A poll taken of scientists just a few years ago
concluded that the greatest scientist that ever
lived was Sir Isaac Newton. If you read a list of
the things that he discovered, it is awesome.
The mathematical laws of gravity are just one
piece of that huge puzzle from this gigantic intellect.
He was, also, among other things, the co-discoverer
of calculus. Sir Isaac Newton. Newton believed in
God, he believed in Christ, he believed in the Bible,
and he believed in creation. To the utter chagrin
of modern evolutionary scientists, he wrote more
books on theology than he did on science. He still
became the greatest scientist that has ever lived,
according to them.
CHRISTIAN SCIENTISTS
If the scientific method was invented by a Christian
and the greatest scientist that ever lived was a
Christian, what about the people that gave us all
of the various branches of science? Who were they?
Let me tell you about them. They were all men that
believed in God, believed in Christ, believed in the
Bible, and believed in creation. Not an evolutionist
among them. Who were they:
The inventor of Antiseptic Surgery was Joseph Lister,
who was all of the above.
Bacteriology - Louis Pasteur - all of the above.
Calculus - Sir Isaac Newton, as I've said.
Celestial Mechanics - Johann Kepler, who said that
science was thinking God's thoughts after Him.
Chemistry - Robert Boyle, who left a large sum of
money in his will that a series of lectures should
be taught in his university in England defending
the Christian faith. An unbeliever? Hardly.
Comparative Anatomy - Georges Cuvier.
Computer Science - Charles Babbage.
Dimensional Analysis - Lord Rayleigh.
Dynamics - Isaac Newton.
Electrodynamics - James Clerk Maxwell.
Electromagnetics - Michael Faraday, who had
about twenty-two honorary doctorates. He was
being given a huge award by the king at a banquet
on a Wednesday night. After the banquet, the
people talked for a while, and then he was called
up to receive his award, and they found that he had
slipped out to go to prayer meeting. That is what
you would have done, isn't it? After all, what is an
award from the king compared to worshiping God.
Electronics - Ambrose Fleming.
Energetics - Lord Kelvin, a great Christian.
Entomology of Living Insects - Henri Fabre.
Field Theory - Michael Faraday.
Fluid Mechanics - George Stokes.
Galactic Astronomy - William Herschel.
Gas Dynamcs - Robert Boyle.
Genetics - Gregor Mendel.
Glacial Geology - Louis Agassiz of Harvard,
a great Christian man.
Gynecology - James Simpson
Hydraulics - Leonardo da Vinci
Hydrography - Matthew Maury
Hydrostatics - Blaise Pascal.
Ichthyology - Louis Agassiz.
Isotopic Chemistry - William Ramsay.
Model Analysis - Lord Rayleigh.
Natural History - John Ray.
Non-Euclidean Geometry - Bernhard Riemann.
Oceanography - Matthew Maury.
Optical Mineralogy - David Brewster.
Paleontology - John Woodward.
Pathology - Rudolph Virchow.
Physical Astronomy - Johann Kepler.
Reversible Thermodynamics - James Joule.
Statistical Thermodynamics - James Clerk Maxwell.
Stratigraphy - Nicholas Steno.
Systematic Biology - Carolus Linnaeus.
Thermodynamics - Lord Kelvin.
Thermokinetics - Humphrey Davy.
Vertebrate Paleontology - George Cuvier.
They were Christians, all believers in creation.
We actually had an evolutionist in a debate
here many years ago who made this astounding
statement: "Creation is not scientific, and therefore,
anyone who believes in creation is not a scientist."
How's that again? He had better go back and
read a little of his own history to find out if that
is true.
--
Pastor Dave
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
"The mark of a society that's on its last leg, is when
there is no fear of God." - Adrian Rogers
"Theology and ethics are inextricably bound together.
Yet under the supposed banner of unity, we have
harbored enemy ships - as long as they flew our flag.
That policy must change. Tolerating enemies of the
historic Christian faith as though they were our
brethren is not love, but adultery. The substance
of the faith is the only basis for unity."
- The Agony of Deceit, p23
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| User: "Jos Flachs - skip the aa" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
29 Aug 2005 07:05:51 PM |
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On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:19:58 GMT, Eric R <epic@odyssy.net> wrote:
The Santa Claus fable is falsifiable because it includes the belief
that Santa is a physical being living with his wife and elves at the
North Pole with a workshop. We are able to examine the whole of the
North Pole and find no Santa and no evidence of him.
Have you ever been to the North Pole? Have you searched every cave,
valley, iceberg, mmmm? Then you cannot be certain.
Religious belief
in a God is not falsifiable because most don't believe God is a
physical being living in a physical location in this world but rather
in some other sphere of existence beyond the natural world.
Exactly what other sphere or existence are you talking about?
God Loves You
It might, if it existed.
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| User: "Ben Dolan" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
27 Aug 2005 01:10:29 AM |
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Eric R <epic@odyssy.net> wrote:
Believers don't believe in an imaginary God they believe in a real God.
Oh, really? Which believers are you talking about? Muslims? Jews?
Pagans? Christians? Mormons? Scientologists? Ancient Greeks? Do they
all believe in "real" Gods?
And therein lies the rub. They can't all be right, or else each one's
house of cards comes crashing down ("No God but God", and all that; the
supreme beings' each have their "non-compete" clause.)
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
26 Aug 2005 11:03:05 PM |
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Eric R wrote:
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:25:36 -0700, (Ben Dolan)
wrote:
Eric R <epic@odyssy.net> wrote:
"We" freaked out. Why? Not because the bible teaches that the sun
revolves around the earth but because we extrapolated that because man
was the centerpiece of God's creation that this planet must be the
center of the universe. Now "we" say that it's not important that the
sun revolve around the earth to maintain the belief that man is the
centerpiece of God's creation - convenient, isn't it?
Exactly. The common theme in both the flat earth theory and creationism
is the irrational belief that man is the centerpiece of god's creation.
That's why both have been so violently defended by those who still cling
to the notion of an imaginary father figure up in the sky. Children
always want to believe they are "daddy's favorite"...
You snipped the rest of my post. You characterize why people believe
in God as "want to believe they are "daddy's favorite"". Believers
don't believe in an imaginary God they believe in a real God.
===>CORRECTION: They believe that the one they believe in is real.
Most children choose fables and fairy tales over facts.
Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy are their first imaginary
beings. The deities are cartoon-like characters. -- L.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
27 Aug 2005 07:20:35 AM |
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In episode <n7ovg15j3j15bu37b6aoiusjco9rsquv50@4ax.com>, Eric R burst into
the room and exclaimed:
Believers don't
believe in an imaginary God they believe in a real God.
A "real" god that can't be distinguished from an imaginary god...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
27 Aug 2005 01:56:02 AM |
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On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 02:46:39 GMT, Eric R
<epic@odyssy.net> spake thusly:
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:14:06 -0700, (Ben Dolan)
wrote:
Pastor Dave <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
They were Christians, all believers in creation.
We actually had an evolutionist in a debate
here many years ago who made this astounding
statement: "Creation is not scientific, and therefore,
anyone who believes in creation is not a scientist."
How's that again? He had better go back and
read a little of his own history to find out if that
is true.
Ah, yes, history.
It's fascinating to live in an era when reality and the Bibie collide,
to see what sort of arguments people put forth to defend their world
view, even when that view is plainly wrong. I wish I had been alive to
hear the discussions that must have gone on when Christians were
threatened by the idea that the sun and stars didn't revolve around the
earth.
"We" freaked out. Why? Not because the bible teaches that the sun
revolves around the earth but because we extrapolated that because man
was the centerpiece of God's creation that this planet must be the
center of the universe. Now "we" say that it's not important that the
sun revolve around the earth to maintain the belief that man is the
centerpiece of God's creation - convenient, isn't it? But does this
mean we should disregard everything christians say or just those
things which are extrapolations?
He still hasn't shown how, if the Bible is such a bad
view of science, these men invented all of these
branches of science, when the evolutionists tell
us that so many of these branches of science,
rely on "the fact of evolution".
<chuckle>
--
Pastor Dave
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
"The mark of a society that's on its last leg, is when
there is no fear of God." - Adrian Rogers
"Theology and ethics are inextricably bound together.
Yet under the supposed banner of unity, we have
harbored enemy ships - as long as they flew our flag.
That policy must change. Tolerating enemies of the
historic Christian faith as though they were our
brethren is not love, but adultery. The substance
of the faith is the only basis for unity."
- The Agony of Deceit, p23
.
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| User: "nJb" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
27 Aug 2005 12:44:23 PM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 02:46:39 GMT, Eric R
<epic@odyssy.net> spake thusly:
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:14:06 -0700, (Ben Dolan)
wrote:
Pastor Dave <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
They were Christians, all believers in creation.
We actually had an evolutionist in a debate
here many years ago who made this astounding
statement: "Creation is not scientific, and therefore,
anyone who believes in creation is not a scientist."
How's that again? He had better go back and
read a little of his own history to find out if that
is true.
Ah, yes, history.
It's fascinating to live in an era when reality and the Bibie collide,
to see what sort of arguments people put forth to defend their world
view, even when that view is plainly wrong. I wish I had been alive to
hear the discussions that must have gone on when Christians were
threatened by the idea that the sun and stars didn't revolve around the
earth.
"We" freaked out. Why? Not because the bible teaches that the sun
revolves around the earth but because we extrapolated that because man
was the centerpiece of God's creation that this planet must be the
center of the universe. Now "we" say that it's not important that the
sun revolve around the earth to maintain the belief that man is the
centerpiece of God's creation - convenient, isn't it? But does this
mean we should disregard everything christians say or just those
things which are extrapolations?
He still hasn't shown how, if the Bible is such a bad
view of science, these men invented all of these
branches of science, when the evolutionists tell
us that so many of these branches of science,
rely on "the fact of evolution".
<chuckle>
Look up the word "invention" moron.
--
Jack
Plonked by Native American
bobo1148atxmissiondotcom
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/xmissionbobo/
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
27 Aug 2005 01:13:50 PM |
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On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:44:23 -0600, nJb
<none@nowhere.com> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 02:46:39 GMT, Eric R
<epic@odyssy.net> spake thusly:
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:14:06 -0700, (Ben Dolan)
wrote:
Pastor Dave <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
They were Christians, all believers in creation.
We actually had an evolutionist in a debate
here many years ago who made this astounding
statement: "Creation is not scientific, and therefore,
anyone who believes in creation is not a scientist."
How's that again? He had better go back and
read a little of his own history to find out if that
is true.
Ah, yes, history.
It's fascinating to live in an era when reality and the Bibie collide,
to see what sort of arguments people put forth to defend their world
view, even when that view is plainly wrong. I wish I had been alive to
hear the discussions that must have gone on when Christians were
threatened by the idea that the sun and stars didn't revolve around the
earth.
"We" freaked out. Why? Not because the bible teaches that the sun
revolves around the earth but because we extrapolated that because man
was the centerpiece of God's creation that this planet must be the
center of the universe. Now "we" say that it's not important that the
sun revolve around the earth to maintain the belief that man is the
centerpiece of God's creation - convenient, isn't it? But does this
mean we should disregard everything christians say or just those
things which are extrapolations?
He still hasn't shown how, if the Bible is such a bad
view of science, these men invented all of these
branches of science, when the evolutionists tell
us that so many of these branches of science,
rely on "the fact of evolution".
<chuckle>
Look up the word "invention" moron.
Look up the following. Are you saying
they're all wrong?
Inventor of the scientific method - Francis Bacon
The inventor of Antiseptic Surgery was Joseph Lister,
who was all of the above.
Bacteriology - Louis Pasteur - all of the above.
Calculus - Sir Isaac Newton, as I've said.
Celestial Mechanics - Johann Kepler, who said that
science was thinking God's thoughts after Him.
Chemistry - Robert Boyle, who left a large sum of
money in his will that a series of lectures should
be taught in his university in England defending
the Christian faith. An unbeliever? Hardly.
Comparative Anatomy - Georges Cuvier.
Computer Science - Charles Babbage.
Dimensional Analysis - Lord Rayleigh.
Dynamics - Isaac Newton.
Electrodynamics - James Clerk Maxwell.
Electromagnetics - Michael Faraday, who had
about twenty-two honorary doctorates. He was
being given a huge award by the king at a banquet
on a Wednesday night. After the banquet, the
people talked for a while, and then he was called
up to receive his award, and they found that he had
slipped out to go to prayer meeting. That is what
you would have done, isn't it? After all, what is an
award from the king compared to worshiping God.
Electronics - Ambrose Fleming.
Energetics - Lord Kelvin, a great Christian.
Entomology of Living Insects - Henri Fabre.
Field Theory - Michael Faraday.
Fluid Mechanics - George Stokes.
Galactic Astronomy - William Herschel.
Gas Dynamcs - Robert Boyle.
Genetics - Gregor Mendel.
Glacial Geology - Louis Agassiz of Harvard,
a great Christian man.
Gynecology - James Simpson
Hydraulics - Leonardo da Vinci
Hydrography - Matthew Maury
Hydrostatics - Blaise Pascal.
Ichthyology - Louis Agassiz.
Isotopic Chemistry - William Ramsay.
Model Analysis - Lord Rayleigh.
Natural History - John Ray.
Non-Euclidean Geometry - Bernhard Riemann.
Oceanography - Matthew Maury.
Optical Mineralogy - David Brewster.
Paleontology - John Woodward.
Pathology - Rudolph Virchow.
Physical Astronomy - Johann Kepler.
Reversible Thermodynamics - James Joule.
Statistical Thermodynamics - James Clerk Maxwell.
Stratigraphy - Nicholas Steno.
Systematic Biology - Carolus Linnaeus.
Thermodynamics - Lord Kelvin.
Thermokinetics - Humphrey Davy.
Vertebrate Paleontology - George Cuvier.
They were Christians, all believers in a six day
creation by God Almighty.
--
Pastor Dave
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
"The mark of a society that's on its last leg, is when
there is no fear of God." - Adrian Rogers
"Theology and ethics are inextricably bound together.
Yet under the supposed banner of unity, we have
harbored enemy ships - as long as they flew our flag.
That policy must change. Tolerating enemies of the
historic Christian faith as though they were our
brethren is not love, but adultery. The substance
of the faith is the only basis for unity."
- The Agony of Deceit, p23
.
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| User: "nJb" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
27 Aug 2005 02:03:27 PM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:44:23 -0600, nJb
<none@nowhere.com> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave wrote:
Look up the following. Are you saying
they're all wrong?
Wrong about their beliefs in creation. Dance little monkey, dance.
--
Jack
Plonked by Native American
bobo1148atxmissiondotcom
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/xmissionbobo/
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
27 Aug 2005 06:56:47 PM |
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On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 13:03:27 -0600, nJb
<none@nowhere.com> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:44:23 -0600, nJb
<none@nowhere.com> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave wrote:
Look up the following. Are you saying
they're all wrong?
Wrong about their beliefs in creation. Dance little monkey, dance.
Why don't you tell them? Here's their names.
Inventor of the scientific method - Francis Bacon
The inventor of Antiseptic Surgery was Joseph Lister,
who was all of the above.
Bacteriology - Louis Pasteur - all of the above.
Calculus - Sir Isaac Newton, as I've said.
Celestial Mechanics - Johann Kepler, who said that
science was thinking God's thoughts after Him.
Chemistry - Robert Boyle, who left a large sum of
money in his will that a series of lectures should
be taught in his university in England defending
the Christian faith. An unbeliever? Hardly.
Comparative Anatomy - Georges Cuvier.
Computer Science - Charles Babbage.
Dimensional Analysis - Lord Rayleigh.
Dynamics - Isaac Newton.
Electrodynamics - James Clerk Maxwell.
Electromagnetics - Michael Faraday, who had
about twenty-two honorary doctorates. He was
being given a huge award by the king at a banquet
on a Wednesday night. After the banquet, the
people talked for a while, and then he was called
up to receive his award, and they found that he had
slipped out to go to prayer meeting. That is what
you would have done, isn't it? After all, what is an
award from the king compared to worshiping God.
Electronics - Ambrose Fleming.
Energetics - Lord Kelvin, a great Christian.
Entomology of Living Insects - Henri Fabre.
Field Theory - Michael Faraday.
Fluid Mechanics - George Stokes.
Galactic Astronomy - William Herschel.
Gas Dynamcs - Robert Boyle.
Genetics - Gregor Mendel.
Glacial Geology - Louis Agassiz of Harvard,
a great Christian man.
Gynecology - James Simpson
Hydraulics - Leonardo da Vinci
Hydrography - Matthew Maury
Hydrostatics - Blaise Pascal.
Ichthyology - Louis Agassiz.
Isotopic Chemistry - William Ramsay.
Model Analysis - Lord Rayleigh.
Natural History - John Ray.
Non-Euclidean Geometry - Bernhard Riemann.
Oceanography - Matthew Maury.
Optical Mineralogy - David Brewster.
Paleontology - John Woodward.
Pathology - Rudolph Virchow.
Physical Astronomy - Johann Kepler.
Reversible Thermodynamics - James Joule.
Statistical Thermodynamics - James Clerk Maxwell.
Stratigraphy - Nicholas Steno.
Systematic Biology - Carolus Linnaeus.
Thermodynamics - Lord Kelvin.
Thermokinetics - Humphrey Davy.
Vertebrate Paleontology - George Cuvier.
They were Christians, all believers in a six day
creation by God Almighty.
--
Pastor Dave
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
"The mark of a society that's on its last leg, is when
there is no fear of God." - Adrian Rogers
"Theology and ethics are inextricably bound together.
Yet under the supposed banner of unity, we have
harbored enemy ships - as long as they flew our flag.
That policy must change. Tolerating enemies of the
historic Christian faith as though they were our
brethren is not love, but adultery. The substance
of the faith is the only basis for unity."
- The Agony of Deceit, p23
.
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| User: "nJb" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
27 Aug 2005 07:22:21 PM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 13:03:27 -0600, nJb
<none@nowhere.com> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:44:23 -0600, nJb
<none@nowhere.com> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave wrote:
Look up the following. Are you saying
they're all wrong?
Wrong about their beliefs in creation. Dance little monkey, dance.
Why don't you tell them? Here's their names.
Because they're dead. They can't hear a thing. Just like you, little monkey.
--
Jack
Plonked by Native American
bobo1148atxmissiondotcom
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/xmissionbobo/
.
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| User: "WCB" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
26 Aug 2005 06:42:19 PM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
Are the Atheists Right?
The atheists...
They love to tell you how Christianity has taken
more lives than anything else. This is NOT TRUE!
1) It is not "Christian" to murder people because
they do not believe in Christ as Savior.
Obviously you know nothing of the religous wars of the 1500's that killed
1/4 of Europe, or the Taiping revolt where a Christina fanatic in China
in 1860 started a movement soon responsible fro 100 million deaths,
or the Conquistaors that introduced mass slavery and massacres to the
Americas. Christianity has been a mass murdering religion since Theodosius
made it the only religion allowed in the Roman empire.
Crusades again the pagan nations of the east by the Teutonic knights,
crisades agains to Jews and Muslims, pogroms, heresy hunts like the
Albigensians crusades and mass murders of Cathars and others.
Year after weary year, century after weary century, death, death, death.
--
Xenu is around and about,
mention Hubbard, Xenu pops out!
No way for the clams to stamp Xenu out,
Xenu is around and about!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Eric R" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
26 Aug 2005 08:14:43 PM |
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On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:42:19 -0500, WCB
<wbarwell@Mungggedd.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Pastor Dave wrote:
Are the Atheists Right?
The atheists...
They love to tell you how Christianity has taken
more lives than anything else. This is NOT TRUE!
1) It is not "Christian" to murder people because
they do not believe in Christ as Savior.
Obviously you know nothing of the religous wars of the 1500's that killed
1/4 of Europe, or the Taiping revolt where a Christina fanatic in China
in 1860 started a movement soon responsible fro 100 million deaths,
or the Conquistaors that introduced mass slavery and massacres to the
Americas. Christianity has been a mass murdering religion since Theodosius
made it the only religion allowed in the Roman empire.
Crusades again the pagan nations of the east by the Teutonic knights,
crisades agains to Jews and Muslims, pogroms, heresy hunts like the
Albigensians crusades and mass murders of Cathars and others.
Year after weary year, century after weary century, death, death, death.
There were plenty of wars and murders before christianity and plenty
after as well so it's true that christianity didn't stop all that.
It's also specious to blame christianity for what came after.
The important question is, what's to blame? What is the consistent
factor? Wars and murders have occurred regardless of politics
religion economics and everything else I can think of but humans are
the constant.
If one wants to judge christianity specifically, it's probably best to
consider what it is based on. The life, death and resurrection of
Jesus as recorded in the bible.
If one were to consider democracy one would be foolish to condemn it
just because Hitler was democratically elected, no?
Was Stalin an evolutionist and atheist? I'll judge communism,
evolution and atheism based on their tenants and how they play out
when *followed*. I blame neither communism nor the theory of
evolution for the gulags.
.
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| User: "Ordog" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
26 Aug 2005 08:47:47 PM |
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Eric R wrote:
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:42:19 -0500, WCB
<wbarwell@Mungggedd.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Pastor Dave wrote:
<snip>
They love to tell you how Christianity has taken
more lives than anything else. This is NOT TRUE!
1) It is not "Christian" to murder people because
they do not believe in Christ as Savior.
<snip>
There were plenty of wars and murders before christianity and plenty
after as well so it's true that christianity didn't stop all that.
It's also specious to blame christianity for what came after.
The important question is, what's to blame? What is the consistent
factor? Wars and murders have occurred regardless of politics
religion economics and everything else I can think of but humans are
the constant.
If one wants to judge christianity specifically, it's probably best to
consider what it is based on. The life, death and resurrection of
Jesus as recorded in the bible.
If one were to consider democracy one would be foolish to condemn it
just because Hitler was democratically elected, no?
Was Stalin an evolutionist and atheist? I'll judge communism,
evolution and atheism based on their tenants and how they play out
when *followed*. I blame neither communism nor the theory of
evolution for the gulags.
The problem, as I see it, is not that atheists believe that religion is
the only cause for murder and war. Christians are the ones who always
blame atheists for anything and everything that is "evil"(a concept I
detest and do not believe in it's existence). After all they claim that
anybody who is xtian is incapable of doing wrong intentionally! LOL
So, all this comes down to a blame game started by xtians and continued
by some atheists.
If xtians are willing to stop this kind of argumentation then we can
get down to actually talking about what is in human nature that causes
such violence throughout our history. As usual there are some quite
logical and scientifically plausible approaches one could follow to
deconstruct the history of violence. Are xtians willing to go down that
track? After all the blame game is a lot easier and more amusing too!
Ordog
"Beware of the man whose God is in the skies." Bernard Shaw
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
26 Aug 2005 08:33:44 PM |
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On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:14:43 GMT, Eric R
<epic@odyssy.net> spake thusly:
They love to tell you how Christianity has taken
more lives than anything else. This is NOT TRUE!
1) It is not "Christian" to murder people because
they do not believe in Christ as Savior.
Obviously you know nothing of the religous wars of the 1500's that killed
1/4 of Europe, or the Taiping revolt where a Christina fanatic in China
in 1860 started a movement soon responsible fro 100 million deaths,
or the Conquistaors that introduced mass slavery and massacres to the
Americas. Christianity has been a mass murdering religion since Theodosius
made it the only religion allowed in the Roman empire.
Crusades again the pagan nations of the east by the Teutonic knights,
crisades agains to Jews and Muslims, pogroms, heresy hunts like the
Albigensians crusades and mass murders of Cathars and others.
Year after weary year, century after weary century, death, death, death.
There were plenty of wars and murders before christianity and plenty
after as well so it's true that christianity didn't stop all that.
It's also specious to blame christianity for what came after.
It is obvious that this person is ignorant
of the wars started by atheistic nations,
which killed far more people.
It is a historical fact that atheistic nations
killed more people than any other.
This is a fact that you can show them and
tomorrow, they will be back, making the same
false claims, in another thread.
Also notice, not one of them has addressed
the list of scientists posted, that disproves
their claim that "no real scientist believes
in Creation".
--
Pastor Dave
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
"The mark of a society that's on its last leg, is when
there is no fear of God." - Adrian Rogers
"Theology and ethics are inextricably bound together.
Yet under the supposed banner of unity, we have
harbored enemy ships - as long as they flew our flag.
That policy must change. Tolerating enemies of the
historic Christian faith as though they were our
brethren is not love, but adultery. The substance
of the faith is the only basis for unity."
- The Agony of Deceit, p23
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
26 Aug 2005 08:25:51 PM |
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On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:14:43 GMT, Eric R <epic@odyssy.net> wrote:
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:42:19 -0500, WCB
<wbarwell@Mungggedd.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Pastor Dave wrote:
Are the Atheists Right?
The atheists...
They love to tell you how Christianity has taken
more lives than anything else. This is NOT TRUE!
1) It is not "Christian" to murder people because
they do not believe in Christ as Savior.
Obviously you know nothing of the religous wars of the 1500's that killed
1/4 of Europe, or the Taiping revolt where a Christina fanatic in China
in 1860 started a movement soon responsible fro 100 million deaths,
or the Conquistaors that introduced mass slavery and massacres to the
Americas. Christianity has been a mass murdering religion since Theodosius
made it the only religion allowed in the Roman empire.
Crusades again the pagan nations of the east by the Teutonic knights,
crisades agains to Jews and Muslims, pogroms, heresy hunts like the
Albigensians crusades and mass murders of Cathars and others.
Year after weary year, century after weary century, death, death, death.
There were plenty of wars and murders before christianity and plenty
after as well so it's true that christianity didn't stop all that.
It's also specious to blame christianity for what came after.
So what? He listed examples that were directly motivated by Christian
religious beliefs.
The important question is, what's to blame? What is the consistent
factor? Wars and murders have occurred regardless of politics
religion economics and everything else I can think of but humans are
the constant.
And the slaughter in Europe during the reformation was caused by
Christianity.
If one wants to judge christianity specifically, it's probably best to
consider what it is based on. The life, death and resurrection of
Jesus as recorded in the bible.
What "life, death and resurrection of Jesus"? That is merely religious
belief, but one that led to almost 2000 years of maltreatment of Jews
as "Christ-killers", ordered by the church (read the writings of both
Protestant and Catholic church fathers), so it becamed enshrined in
Western European culture, culminating in the holocaust.
If one were to consider democracy one would be foolish to condemn it
just because Hitler was democratically elected, no?
Actually he wasn't.
Was Stalin an evolutionist and atheist? I'll judge communism,
1. There is no such thjing as an "evolutionist". That is a dishonest
label applied by American fundamentalists to anybody who accepts
modern science.
2. All "atheist", is, is a label for what somebody isn't. It's no
different than not believing in the fairies at the botom of the
garden.
evolution and atheism based on their tenants and how they play out
What "tenants"? Do you mean "tenets"? Neither have any tenets outside
the imagination of deliberately ignorant religionists. Evolution is an
observed phenomenon that has been scientifically investigated and is
well understood. Atheism merely means not being theist.
when *followed*. I blame neither communism nor the theory of
There's nothing to follow.
evolution for the gulags.
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
26 Aug 2005 07:05:11 PM |
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On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:42:19 -0500, WCB
<wbarwell@Mungggedd.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Pastor Dave wrote:
Are the Atheists Right?
The atheists...
They love to tell you how Christianity has taken
more lives than anything else. This is NOT TRUE!
1) It is not "Christian" to murder people because
they do not believe in Christ as Savior.
Obviously you know nothing of the religous wars of the 1500's that killed
1/4 of Europe, or the Taiping revolt where a Christina fanatic in China
in 1860 started a movement soon responsible fro 100 million deaths,
or the Conquistaors that introduced mass slavery and massacres to the
Americas. Christianity has been a mass murdering religion since Theodosius
made it the only religion allowed in the Roman empire.
Crusades again the pagan nations of the east by the Teutonic knights,
crisades agains to Jews and Muslims, pogroms, heresy hunts like the
Albigensians crusades and mass murders of Cathars and others.
Directly due to their Christian beliefs.
They're in serious denial over this - part of fundamentalism, is they
imagine Christianity hasn't changed over time.
If only they had the intelligence and hosesty to admit its bloody
past.
But they imagine it is perfect, infallible and can't motivate people
to do bad things.
As well as the droolingly nasty imagination that a non-event no
different than not believing in Santa Claus, makes people do the very
things they themselves deny.
.
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| User: "Risto Karttunen" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
26 Aug 2005 07:47:20 PM |
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WCB wrote:
Obviously you know nothing of the religous wars of the 1500's that killed
1/4 of Europe, or the Taiping revolt where a Christina fanatic in China
in 1860 started a movement soon responsible fro 100 million deaths,
or the Conquistaors that introduced mass slavery and massacres to the
Americas.
I don't think the Conquistadors _massacred_ American Indians very
much. The diseases (flu etc.) which the Europeans brought with them
did the killing.
Christianity has been a mass murdering religion since Theodosius
made it the only religion allowed in the Roman empire.
Crusades again the pagan nations of the east by the Teutonic knights,
crisades agains to Jews and Muslims, pogroms, heresy hunts like the
Albigensians crusades and mass murders of Cathars and others.
Year after weary year, century after weary century, death, death, death.
However, 20th century was the bloodiest of all, but surely religion
had hardly any part in the Russo-Japanese war, the Boer war, WWI, WW2,
the Korean War, the war in Vietnam, all of the civil wars...which of
them were _religious_? The recent war in the Balkans was fought
between Christian Catholics, Orthodoxes and Moslems, but of course not
due to doctrinal differences; the division was between nationalities
or ethnic groups, not religions - as also in Afghanistan, Tchetchenya
and Iraq. Concentration camps have been an invention of the last
century; neither have they had anything to do with religion.
Or think about the 19th century - the Napoleonic wars, Crimean War,
the American Civil War etc - were they _religious_ wars? There were no
religious reasons for colonialism and imperialism; sometimes religion
was presented as a suitable excuse, when nothing better could be
thought up, but that's all. You mentioned the Taiping rebellion, which
however was a reaction against colonialism, a prelude to the incidents
in China in the next century.
During the last three-and-half hundred years religion has not been a
significant motive for wars and atrocities, but has the world been
more peaceful? You should have much more reason to blame nationalism,
political ideologies and struggle for power - political influence,
natural resources - than religion.
--
risto
.
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| User: "WCB" |
|
| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
27 Aug 2005 12:13:26 AM |
|
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Risto Karttunen wrote:
WCB wrote:
Obviously you know nothing of the religous wars of the 1500's that killed
1/4 of Europe, or the Taiping revolt where a Christina fanatic in China
in 1860 started a movement soon responsible fro 100 million deaths,
or the Conquistaors that introduced mass slavery and massacres to the
Americas.
Disease killed a lot, the Conquistaors killed many more, worked t odeath in
silver and gold mines in Peru and Mexico, or enslaved on plantations as
slave labor.
The fact that many Indians did die mean the Spanish started
importing African Slaves.
I don't think the Conquistadors _massacred_ American Indians very
much. The diseases (flu etc.) which the Europeans brought with them
did the killing.
Christianity has been a mass murdering religion since Theodosius
made it the only religion allowed in the Roman empire.
Crusades again the pagan nations of the east by the Teutonic knights,
crisades agains to Jews and Muslims, pogroms, heresy hunts like the
Albigensians crusades and mass murders of Cathars and others.
Year after weary year, century after weary century, death, death, death.
However, 20th century was the bloodiest of all, but surely religion
had hardly any part in the Russo-Japanese war, the Boer war, WWI, WW2,
the Korean War, the war in Vietnam, all of the civil wars...which of
them were _religious_? The recent war in the Balkans was fought
between Christian Catholics, Orthodoxes and Moslems, but of course not
due to doctrinal differences; the division was between nationalities
or ethnic groups, not religions - as also in Afghanistan, Tchetchenya
and Iraq. Concentration camps have been an invention of the last
century; neither have they had anything to do with religion.
The fact is, religion has been a part of genocide and war for centuries.
That popultatons were not big enough in the past to claim bigger prizes than
say the 100 million of the Taiping Rebellion.
Killing 1/4 of Europe is still impressive, as is enslaving most of South
America and Central America and Mexico.
As for this era, its impressive Christian Germany managed to start Three
wars starting with the French-German war, WWI and WWII.
Apparently, being good Christians does not prevent such nonsense that
went on almost 80 years here, and did kill amazing amounts of people.
Yet Christians tell us we cannot have morality without their religion.
I note since Nixon, the Christian coimmunity has backed 30 years of
Republican politician who supported almost every right wing genocidal
***** South of the Border and not a few elsewhere.
Including Pol Pot supported 10 years running by Reagan and Bush.
Despite all te lessons of yesteryear, American Christians have blandly
supported many mass murderers.
How do we make American Christians stop doing that? Before
someday we slip into the bad old ways but with bigger body counts?
Or think about the 19th century - the Napoleonic wars, Crimean War,
the American Civil War etc - were they _religious_ wars?
Civil war? Yes. It was as much a religous war as anything, we had
proslavery and anti-slavery forces, both furiously using teh bible to
justify their positions.
It was a war between liberal religion of the North and literalist
religous slave hollders of the South.
Atheists and Deists had their say and were indeed important
sources of moral suasion in the North, but still in teh end, it was
Christian against Christian. The Merciful god of transcedentalist New
England, vs the old fashion god who created the marked Children of Ham.
Read the Texas article of succession and see how it makes it all a matter of
god's law as seen by slavers. Religion played a great role in the Civil
War.
There were no
religious reasons for colonialism and imperialism; sometimes religion
was presented as a suitable excuse, when nothing better could be
thought up, but that's all. You mentioned the Taiping rebellion, which
however was a reaction against colonialism, a prelude to the incidents
in China in the next century.
The Taiping rebellion established a Christian nation in China.
During the last three-and-half hundred years religion has not been a
significant motive for wars and atrocities, but has the world been
more peaceful? You should have much more reason to blame nationalism,
political ideologies and struggle for power - political influence,
natural resources - than religion.
Most certainly it has. When Europe professes to be Christian and yet
goes to war again and again, one has to ask, why doesn't Christianity
stop doing that?
From the Franco-Prussian war to WWII, why didn't Christianity
do more to stop war? Christians have always been cheerleaders.
--
Xenu is around and about,
mention Hubbard, Xenu pops out!
No way for the clams to stamp Xenu out,
Xenu is around and about!
Cheerful Charlie
.
|
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| User: "Tom P" |
|
| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
30 Aug 2005 01:18:52 PM |
|
|
"WCB" <wbarwell@Mungggedd.mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11gvsts71en3b05@corp.supernews.com...
Risto Karttunen wrote:
WCB wrote:
Obviously you know nothing of the religous wars of the 1500's that
killed
1/4 of Europe, or the Taiping revolt where a Christina fanatic in China
in 1860 started a movement soon responsible fro 100 million deaths,
or the Conquistaors that introduced mass slavery and massacres to the
Americas.
Your numbers seem much exaggerated. What are your sources? You are wrong
not only concerning the founder of the Tai Ping rebellion but also the
number of dead.
Disease killed a lot, the Conquistaors killed many more, worked t odeath
in
silver and gold mines in Peru and Mexico, or enslaved on plantations as
slave labor.
The fact that many Indians did die mean the Spanish started
importing African Slaves.
Actually, it was the Portuguese who started the African slave trade. The
first recorded slave trader was Nuno Tristao who brought slaves to Portugal
from Capo Blanco. You really should have checked some of your facts before
you posted. May I suggest you do that in the future?
I don't think the Conquistadors _massacred_ American Indians very
much. The diseases (flu etc.) which the Europeans brought with them
did the killing.
Christianity has been a mass murdering religion since Theodosius
made it the only religion allowed in the Roman empire.
Crusades again the pagan nations of the east by the Teutonic knights,
crisades agains to Jews and Muslims, pogroms, heresy hunts like the
Albigensians crusades and mass murders of Cathars and others.
None of which, or even all of those events combined, can compare to the
number of murders by atheists during the 20th century alone. The facts are
that Christians murdered millions from the 1st through the 20th centuries,
but atheists murdered even more people than Christians in less than 100
years. (See here for a useful statistical summary of mass murder through
the ages: http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP2.HTM) So where does
that leave whatever point you were trying to make? If people shouldn't be
Christians because Christians commit mass murder, then applying the same
reasoning people obviously should not be atheist because atheists committed
even more mass murders in far less time than Christains did.
Year after weary year, century after weary century, death, death, death.
However, 20th century was the bloodiest of all, but surely religion
had hardly any part in the Russo-Japanese war, the Boer war, WWI, WW2,
the Korean War, the war in Vietnam, all of the civil wars...which of
them were _religious_? The recent war in the Balkans was fought
between Christian Catholics, Orthodoxes and Moslems, but of course not
due to doctrinal differences; the division was between nationalities
or ethnic groups, not religions - as also in Afghanistan, Tchetchenya
and Iraq. Concentration camps have been an invention of the last
century; neither have they had anything to do with religion.
The fact is, religion has been a part of genocide and war for centuries.
Another fact is that atheists did murder something over 100 million people
between 1917 and 2000. Both atheists and Christians have mass murdered tens
of millions of people. The atheists murdered more people in less time too.
So where does that leave your argument?
That popultatons were not big enough in the past to claim bigger prizes
than
say the 100 million of the Taiping Rebellion.
I have never ever read in any history that Hung Hsiu-ch'uan (1814-1864) was
a Christian. Hung claimed "visions" and that he had seen God and seen Jesus
Christ, who he claimed was his older brother, but that hardly made the Tai
Ping movement Christian. Initially, the "God Worshipper's Society" as Hung
called his movement based on the "Rituals of China" by Chou Li and somewhat
on the militant nationalism of the Old Testament, was made up of members of
Triad societies, Hakkas, pirates and homeless peasants.
Your numbers appear grossly exaggerated. Twenty million is the average
estimate for total deaths during the Tai Ping rebellion.
What are your sources for your conclusions?
Killing 1/4 of Europe is still impressive,
Upon what sources do you base your population estimates for Europe during
the wars of the reformation? And upon what sources do you base your
allegation that "1/4 of Europe" was killed during these wars?
as is enslaving most of South
America and Central America and Mexico.
Most? What parts didn't the Europeans enslave?
More to the point, what culture in world history did not enslave its
opponents?
As for this era, its impressive Christian Germany managed to start Three
wars starting with the French-German war, WWI and WWII.
Apparently, being good Christians does not prevent such nonsense that
went on almost 80 years here, and did kill amazing amounts of people.
Gosh, during the 80 year period 1917-1997 atheists murdered at least 105
million people, and that is a mid range estimate.
Yet Christians tell us we cannot have morality without their religion.
I note since Nixon, the Christian coimmunity has backed 30 years of
Republican politician who supported almost every right wing genocidal
***** South of the Border and not a few elsewhere.
Including Pol Pot supported 10 years running by Reagan and Bush.
Despite all te lessons of yesteryear, American Christians have blandly
supported many mass murderers.
How did Reagan and Bush support the atheist Pol Pot as he murdered about 1/4
of the population of Cambodia?
How do we make American Christians stop doing that? Before
someday we slip into the bad old ways but with bigger body counts?
How do we make atheists stop committing mass murder? The facts are that
atheist proved to be far more efficient at mass murder than any Christian in
history?
Or think about the 19th century - the Napoleonic wars, Crimean War,
the American Civil War etc - were they _religious_ wars?
Civil war? Yes. It was as much a religous war as anything, we had
proslavery and anti-slavery forces, both furiously using teh bible to
justify their positions.
It was a war between liberal religion of the North and literalist
religous slave hollders of the South.
Atheists and Deists had their say and were indeed important
sources of moral suasion in the North, but still in teh end, it was
Christian against Christian. The Merciful god of transcedentalist New
England, vs the old fashion god who created the marked Children of Ham.
Read the Texas article of succession and see how it makes it all a matter
of
god's law as seen by slavers. Religion played a great role in the Civil
War.
There were no
religious reasons for colonialism and imperialism; sometimes religion
was presented as a suitable excuse, when nothing better could be
thought up, but that's all. You mentioned the Taiping rebellion, which
however was a reaction against colonialism, a prelude to the incidents
in China in the next century.
The Taiping rebellion established a Christian nation in China.
No, the Tai Ping rebellion did no such thing. For a short primer on the
history of the Tai Ping movement, see K. S. Latourette, "A Short Histoy of
the Far East," 4th edition, London, MacMillan Co., 1965, pp. 378-382, and
John K Fairbank, et al, "East Asia: Tradition and Transformation, Boston,
Houghton-Mifflin,1973, pages 466-476. And there are lots more books
concerning the Tai Ping, and none support your allegation. That is
nonsense. As I alluded to above. And you can't prove your assertion in any
case.
During the last three-and-half hundred years religion has not been a
significant motive for wars and atrocities, but has the world been
more peaceful? You should have much more reason to blame nationalism,
political ideologies and struggle for power - political influence,
natural resources - than religion.
Most certainly it has. When Europe professes to be Christian and yet
goes to war again and again, one has to ask, why doesn't Christianity
stop doing that?
Why didn't the atheists? Did Stalin profess to be a Christian? He did
claim he was atheist and he murdered at least 60 million people. Lenin
claimed to be an atheist, and he murdered at least 7 million people in less
than 5 years. Tito claimed to be an atheist, and he murdered over one
million people. And this list of atheist murderers goes on and on and on.
From the Franco-Prussian war to WWII, why didn't Christianity
do more to stop war? Christians have always been cheerleaders.
Why didn't the atheists stop the European wars between 1870 and 1939?
--
Xenu is around and about,
mention Hubbard, Xenu pops out!
No way for the clams to stamp Xenu out,
Xenu is around and about!
Cheerful Charlie
.
|
|
|
| User: "WCB" |
|
| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
31 Aug 2005 09:08:23 AM |
|
|
Tom P wrote:
"WCB" <wbarwell@Mungggedd.mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11gvsts71en3b05@corp.supernews.com...
Risto Karttunen wrote:
WCB wrote:
Obviously you know nothing of the religous wars of the 1500's that
killed
1/4 of Europe, or the Taiping revolt where a Christina fanatic in China
in 1860 started a movement soon responsible fro 100 million deaths,
or the Conquistaors that introduced mass slavery and massacres to the
Americas.
Your numbers seem much exaggerated. What are your sources? You are wrong
not only concerning the founder of the Tai Ping rebellion but also the
number of dead.
Disease killed a lot, the Conquistaors killed many more, worked t odeath
in
silver and gold mines in Peru and Mexico, or enslaved on plantations as
slave labor.
The fact that many Indians did die mean the Spanish started
importing African Slaves.
Actually, it was the Portuguese who started the African slave trade. The
first recorded slave trader was Nuno Tristao who brought slaves to
Portugal
from Capo Blanco. You really should have checked some of your facts
before
you posted. May I suggest you do that in the future?
I didn't say the Spanish STARTED the slave trade, but that they
went to African slaves after it was obvious the Indians were
not working out as slaves.
And the Moslem slave traders were raiding Africa long before
the Portugeuse.
--
Xenu is around and about,
mention Hubbard, Xenu pops out!
No way for the clams to stamp Xenu out,
Xenu is around and about!
Cheerful Charlie
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Eric R" |
|
| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
27 Aug 2005 11:58:47 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 00:13:26 -0500, WCB
<wbarwell@Mungggedd.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
As for this era, its impressive Christian Germany managed to start Three
wars starting with the French-German war, WWI and WWII.
Apparently, being good Christians does not prevent such nonsense that
went on almost 80 years here, and did kill amazing amounts of people.
Hang on here, Germany wasn't some priestly theocracy. "The
Church"(whatever that is) wasn't calling the shots. If I'm not
mistaken, Germany was and is a secular democratic constitutional
republic.
If you're under the impression that the bible instructs christians to
prevent their governments from going to war you are mistaken.
You may wish to argue that this omission is a serious flaw in
christianity and the bible but to blame christianity for causing the
war is nonsense.
Many christians serve in armed forces around the world - this is not a
sin.
Canada is a christian contry(yeah, right, this really only means
western and secular). Canada doesn't win many gold metals at the
olympics. Christianity is to blame for this lack of gold metals.
.
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| User: "Chris Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
27 Aug 2005 12:25:11 PM |
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|
If I'm not
mistaken, Germany was and is a secular democratic constitutional
republic.
You are mistaken. Germany was united under a Prussian monarchy in the
Franco-Prussian war engineered by Bismarck (Wilhelm I was then named
the German Emperor). Germany was an Empire until just before the end of
World War I. Then Hitler rose to power through a weak republic that had
no support because the people blamed it for the loss of WWI.
If you're under the impression that the bible instructs christians to
prevent their governments from going to war you are mistaken.
Well *****, what's the use of all these morals Christianity imposes if
it can't do something as simple as impel its adherents to oppose war
and genocide?
You may wish to argue that this omission is a serious flaw in
christianity and the bible but to blame christianity for causing the
war is nonsense.
Right. Christianity didn't cause the war. But isn't it a bit telling
that there was only silence from a religion known for producing martyrs
with the promise of heaven?
Many christians serve in armed forces around the world - this is not a
sin.
Says you. As far as I'm concerned, killing someone in a war is no less
a murder than stabbing someone in a dark alleyway. The only difference
is there's a chance you'll be praised for it, rather than jailed.
Canada is a christian contry(yeah, right, this really only means
western and secular). Canada doesn't win many gold metals at the
olympics. Christianity is to blame for this lack of gold metals.
I don't remember seeing anything in the Bible about competitions
(except Paul's metaphorical race). However, there is quite a lot about
not murdering and loving one's neighbor.
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
27 Aug 2005 12:40:59 PM |
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On 27 Aug 2005 10:25:11 -0700, "Chris Johnson"
<effigies@gmail.com> spake thusly:
If you're under the impression that the bible instructs christians to
prevent their governments from going to war you are mistaken.
Well *****, what's the use of all these morals Christianity imposes if
it can't do something as simple as impel its adherents to oppose war
and genocide?
They would have to physically stop the government
and that would they would have to go to war against
their government, in order to do that. But of course,
you don't let something like facts get in the way of
your mission to blame Christians for everything that
you do.
Goodbye.
--
Pastor Dave
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
"The mark of a society that's on its last leg, is when
there is no fear of God." - Adrian Rogers
"Theology and ethics are inextricably bound together.
Yet under the supposed banner of unity, we have
harbored enemy ships - as long as they flew our flag.
That policy must change. Tolerating enemies of the
historic Christian faith as though they were our
brethren is not love, but adultery. The substance
of the faith is the only basis for unity."
- The Agony of Deceit, p23
.
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| User: "Eric R" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
27 Aug 2005 12:45:35 PM |
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On 27 Aug 2005 10:25:11 -0700, "Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com>
wrote:
If I'm not
mistaken, Germany was and is a secular democratic constitutional
republic.
You are mistaken. Germany was united under a Prussian monarchy in the
Franco-Prussian war engineered by Bismarck (Wilhelm I was then named
the German Emperor). Germany was an Empire until just before the end of
World War I. Then Hitler rose to power through a weak republic that had
no support because the people blamed it for the loss of WWI.
I was referring to WW2.
If you're under the impression that the bible instructs christians to
prevent their governments from going to war you are mistaken.
Well *****, what's the use of all these morals Christianity imposes if
it can't do something as simple as impel its adherents to oppose war
and genocide?
Now here I was referring to war in general, not genocide. Including
the word genocide here seems cheap of you and maybe deceitful or maybe
you just don't like to keep things clear.
Here's an easy example, one sovereign nation attacks another without
any provocation at all. The nation which is attacked goes to war to
defend itself. I see nothing in the bible that says this defense is
wrong or a sin. It's almost like defending one's own family which is
an imperative.
You may wish to argue that this omission is a serious flaw in
christianity and the bible but to blame christianity for causing the
war is nonsense.
Right. Christianity didn't cause the war. But isn't it a bit telling
that there was only silence from a religion known for producing martyrs
with the promise of heaven?
Many christians serve in armed forces around the world - this is not a
sin.
Says you. As far as I'm concerned, killing someone in a war is no less
a murder than stabbing someone in a dark alleyway. The only difference
is there's a chance you'll be praised for it, rather than jailed.
So you wont defend your family?
Canada is a christian contry(yeah, right, this really only means
western and secular). Canada doesn't win many gold metals at the
olympics. Christianity is to blame for this lack of gold metals.
I don't remember seeing anything in the Bible about competitions
(except Paul's metaphorical race).
Nor do you see an outright all encompassing condemnation of war.
However, there is quite a lot about
not murdering and loving one's neighbor.
Indeed.
.
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| User: "Chris Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
27 Aug 2005 01:31:15 PM |
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I was referring to WW2.
The post you were responding to mentioned all three wars, so I assumed
that unless you specified otherwise, you would be referring to all
three. You were responding to the claim that Germany started the
Franco-Prussian and and both World Wars (Which is not strictly true.
Austria started WWI, but since it didn't exist, we needed someone to
blame.), with the point that Germany was a democracy, which was not
true. (By WWII, it had become a dictatorship with no more than the
veneer of democracy. True Hitler rose through the Reichstag, but
demagogues do that in any system when the country is a wreck.)
Now here I was referring to war in general, not genocide. Including
the word genocide here seems cheap of you and maybe deceitful or maybe
you just don't like to keep things clear.
A little consistency would be nice. It's difficult to respond when it's
not clear you're switching from general cases to specific and vice
versa.
I most certainly was not being deceitful. Deception is rather appalling
to me (one of the reasons I'm responding to Pastor Dave's post. It is
thoroughly deceitful, considering he misrepresents atheist claims and
his arguments are based on appeals to authority.), so I do my best to
only speak truth. I do not intend to misrepresent your arguments. I
respond to them as I understand them. Damn imprecise language.
Here's an easy example, one sovereign nation attacks another without
any provocation at all. The nation which is attacked goes to war to
defend itself. I see nothing in the bible that says this defense is
wrong or a sin. It's almost like defending one's own family which is
an imperative.
I'll give you that. I don't agree with killing even in defense, but I
can understand the situation people are put in and do not blame them
for that. But the agressor role is not justified, and 'Christian
nations' have been in that position alarmingly often. So the problem,
then, is that Christianity fails to act as a deterrent. It is, in that
respect, no better or worse than atheism.
So you wont defend your family?
I hope to never be in a situation where I have to choose between murder
and the sacrifice of my family. In any case, I can hardly predict what
I'd do, as I'd be under extreme emotional duress.
However, as it is, I would do anything short of attack to help my
family escape the situation.
.
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| User: "Eric R" |
|
| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
27 Aug 2005 01:39:25 PM |
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On 27 Aug 2005 11:31:15 -0700, "Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com>
wrote:
I was referring to WW2.
The post you were responding to mentioned all three wars, so I assumed
that unless you specified otherwise, you would be referring to all
three. You were responding to the claim that Germany started the
Franco-Prussian and and both World Wars (Which is not strictly true.
Austria started WWI, but since it didn't exist, we needed someone to
blame.), with the point that Germany was a democracy, which was not
true. (By WWII, it had become a dictatorship with no more than the
veneer of democracy. True Hitler rose through the Reichstag, but
demagogues do that in any system when the country is a wreck.)
Now here I was referring to war in general, not genocide. Including
the word genocide here seems cheap of you and maybe deceitful or maybe
you just don't like to keep things clear.
A little consistency would be nice. It's difficult to respond when it's
not clear you're switching from general cases to specific and vice
versa.
sorry for being unclear.
I most certainly was not being deceitful. Deception is rather appalling
to me (one of the reasons I'm responding to Pastor Dave's post. It is
thoroughly deceitful, considering he misrepresents atheist claims and
his arguments are based on appeals to authority.), so I do my best to
only speak truth. I do not intend to misrepresent your arguments. I
respond to them as I understand them. Damn imprecise language.
Here's an easy example, one sovereign nation attacks another without
any provocation at all. The nation which is attacked goes to war to
defend itself. I see nothing in the bible that says this defense is
wrong or a sin. It's almost like defending one's own family which is
an imperative.
I'll give you that. I don't agree with killing even in defense, but I
can understand the situation people are put in and do not blame them
for that. But the agressor role is not justified, and 'Christian
nations' have been in that position alarmingly often. So the problem,
then, is that Christianity fails to act as a deterrent. It is, in that
respect, no better or worse than atheism.
So you wont defend your family?
I hope to never be in a situation where I have to choose between murder
and the sacrifice of my family. In any case, I can hardly predict what
I'd do, as I'd be under extreme emotional duress.
However, as it is, I would do anything short of attack to help my
family escape the situation.
.
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| User: "Bruno" |
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| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
27 Aug 2005 12:34:14 PM |
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|
On 27 Aug 2005 10:25:11 -0700, Chris Johnson wrote:
Says you. As far as I'm concerned, killing someone in a war is no less
a murder than stabbing someone in a dark alleyway. The only difference
is there's a chance you'll be praised for it, rather than jailed.
Actually, the main difference is whose side wins.
--
"I'd far rather be happy than right any day."
- Slartibartfast
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
27 Aug 2005 12:26:35 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:58:47 GMT, Eric R
<epic@odyssy.net> spake thusly:
Canada is a christian contry(yeah, right, this really only means
western and secular). Canada doesn't win many gold metals at the
olympics. Christianity is to blame for this lack of gold metals.
I knew it! :)
--
Pastor Dave
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
"The mark of a society that's on its last leg, is when
there is no fear of God." - Adrian Rogers
"Theology and ethics are inextricably bound together.
Yet under the supposed banner of unity, we have
harbored enemy ships - as long as they flew our flag.
That policy must change. Tolerating enemies of the
historic Christian faith as though they were our
brethren is not love, but adultery. The substance
of the faith is the only basis for unity."
- The Agony of Deceit, p23
.
|
|
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Are the Atheists Right? |
27 Aug 2005 02:42:23 PM |
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On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:58:47 GMT, Eric R <epic@odyssy.net> wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 00:13:26 -0500, WCB
<wbarwell@Mungggedd.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
As for this era, its impressive Christian Germany managed to start Three
wars starting with the French-German war, WWI and WWII.
Apparently, being good Christians does not prevent such nonsense that
went on almost 80 years here, and did kill amazing amounts of people.
Hang on here, Germany wasn't some priestly theocracy. "The
Church"(whatever that is) wasn't calling the shots. If I'm not
mistaken, Germany was and is a secular democratic constitutional
republic.
If you're under the impression that the bible instructs christians to
prevent their governments from going to war you are mistaken.
I'm sure that if he'd meant that, he'd have said so, idiot.
This reminds me of the scene in A Few Good Men where Kevin Bacon asks
the marine to point out where in the Marine Corps Handbook it tells
them to do a code red. And Tom Cruise asks where it says the mess hall
is.
.
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