Joseph H wrote:

firelock_ny@hotmail.com wrote:

Joseph H wrote:

Niels van der Linden wrote:

* Brain may get larger, but it'll shortly reach a point where it'll be
bottlenecked (intelligence-wise) because of larger distances internally.

Hmmm. Chemicals could make the leap. Saw a report in the London Sunday
Times yesterday that more and more people are taking to such drugs as
ritalin to stimulate brain-performance. They might stimulate
performance but do they stimulate intelligence?

What's the difference between "brain performance" and "intelligence"?

Brain performance seems to focus on prolonging concentration and
accentuating alertness etc. Intelligence is a measurement of one's
capacity to understand and appraise a situation.

Sounds to me like concentration and alertness would play a large
role in understanding and appraising a situation. I think it all
comes down to what you want to leave out of your definition of
intelligence.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

Well logic... Hmmm... There is logic in the system, but not the type
you're looking for. What you must learn is to be a bit more humble. We
as humans are not the centre of the world. We're not the top of nature.
Although we like to think we are, we are not 'more develloped' than the
other organisms.

<snip>
Back to intelligence! That's where we were talking about. It is in fact
just another property. The size of our brains, how it works, how it's
structured and how it functions. That's genetics. Our intelligence is
again a result of mutations and the fact that the properties, new
properties, that resulted from those mutations allowed us to survive in
our environment. It allowed us to find food sources, ward of predators
and competition and to cope with the climat.

And does it end here with us? Not at all. Can you imagine a 2-year-old
kid speaking five languages fluently and playing with algorithms? There
are mutations occuring during our reproduction, constantly. And people
with a higher intelligence are born and able to survive. Consider the
possibility of a change in our environment and you might see these
variants taking over from us 'normal' humans.

Well logic... Hmmm... There is logic in the system, but not the type
you're looking for. What you must learn is to be a bit more humble. We
as humans are not the centre of the world. We're not the top of nature.
Although we like to think we are, we are not 'more develloped' than the
other organisms.

What it all comes down to is if and how the organisms' properties allow
the organisms to survive in their environment. Properties, that's the
genetic material of the organisms translated into physical forms and
behaviour. An organism can consist of one single cell or mutliple cells
like we do. That's a property for instance.
The environment is the other factor in this and there are three
elements in it that are relevant to organism. First one is food. All
organisms need a source(s) of energy in order to reproduce and maintain
themselves for as long as possible. Solar power is a possible source,
Other organisms can be a possible source. And only organisms that
obtain properties to obtain energy will be able to survive
(photosythese, digestive system...) If they don't or if it's
insufficient for the environment the organisms live in they die and
don't reproduce. So in short those without the property to obtain
energy are killed off and those who do survive.
Second element in the environment is the presence of other organisms.
Competition and/or predation is a factor for the organisms. If the
organisms doesn't have properties or has insufficient properties to
fend off the other organisms (poison, large numbers, strength, outer
shell...) in its environment it is simply killed off. It doesn't
reproduce. So only organisms that have properties that allow them to
cope with the presence of other organisms can survive and reproduce.
The third element is our climat. This covers temperature, seasons,
state of liquid, weather conditions... And again only organisms with
properties that allow them to survive in their particular climat
survive and reproduce. Those that don't have them or have insufficient
properties are again killed off.

Now, the environment is not constant. It changes over time, sometimes
on short term and sometimes on long term. Our climat changes; food
sources change, are killed off and new food sources come in. Predators
change, die out and new ones come in.
At the same time mutations occur. Properties are altered, destroyed or
added. Pretty much at random. And mutatants that don't have the
properties they need to survive in their environment are killed off.
They're simply food for the others if you like. Those that do have the
properties to survive reproduce and pass on their mutation to the later
generation. In which of course new mutations happen restarting the
whole process.
So we're drifting but this is simply to explain how evolution works.
The changing environment and the mutations at reproduction are the
engines behind evolution of living things. The mutations are at random,
while the environental changes can either be at random or in cycles
(but that's a different story).

Back to intelligence! That's where we were talking about. It is in fact
just another property. The size of our brains, how it works, how it's
structured and how it functions. That's genetics. Our intelligence is
again a result of mutations and the fact that the properties, new
properties, that resulted from those mutations allowed us to survive in
our environment. It allowed us to find food sources, ward of predators
and competition and to cope with the climat.

And does it end here with us? Not at all. Can you imagine a 2-year-old
kid speaking five languages fluently and playing with algorithms? There
are mutations occuring during our reproduction, constantly. And people
with a higher intelligence are born and able to survive. Consider the
possibility of a change in our environment and you might see these
variants taking over from us 'normal' humans.

Joseph asks:

"Question: do other mammals actually support and sustain the weaker
members of the group?"

Some do, some don't. It doesn't appear to be a function of intelligence
so much as culture. Most whales are very intelligent, around the same
level as humans. Some of them are altruistic to a fault, even willing
to sacrifice their lives for their mates, others barely seem to notice
the distress of another of their own species.
Some mammals are only sensitive to the needs of their own blood line.
Many members of the cat family are like this. They seem to be able to
smell their own genes and will selectively kill kittens of different
families while sparing their own.
Some mammals care only about themselves. Some shrews are like this
where they will happily kill and eat any member of their own species
including their own siblings or offspring.. For creatures like this,
mating depends on exact ritual to insure that neither participant is
mistaken for dinner.

Once again Joseph asks:

"Question; if so many other creatures are so utterly ruthless in
selecting the "fittest" of the species why should humans be so
different? Why should humans seek to preserve the "entire" tribe? My
doubt rises from a suspicion of our recent habit of attributing all
behaviour to some inherent gene-preservation. Could this not just be
"the way we do things"? "

Humans aren't *that* different. Our behavior isn't unique or even
uncommon, but it also isn't the only available choice for relationship
modes. It does seem to be one of the factors that led to our particular
type of intelligence. That, and meat eating and tool using.

Joseph Asks:

" But can we speak of " a
species" in some general sense here when only one species (that we know
of) has ever attained this pinacle? "

Our intelligence is not so very special. A number of creatures are
very close to us in mental ability, possibly one or two surpass us Our
big achievement is the formalization of language allowing us to pass
large amounts of complex learned behaviors from generation to
generation. Memetics.ascendant over genetics. That, and not simple
intelligence, is our distinguishing factor.