| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Joseph H" |
| Date: |
20 Jun 2005 05:57:59 AM |
| Object: |
Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
Seems like a VERY unintelligent question....!
Two clarifications to begin:
First, by "creature" I mean natural product of the evolutionary
process, not some engineered conglomorate of the future.
Second; I know nothing. How did intelligence evolve? Was it some
chance mutation, as we say, or some gradual favouring over time or a
cumulative build-up of cognitive capacity as we responded in different
ways to the challenges and crises of existence? Maybe some kind
gentleman out there will dispense the latest thinking in this area.
(Sorry, madam, but you have been very quiet over there)
But...my point:
Our accumulating response to the challenges of existence would not have
been hasty. Today we could not conceive of these time-spans, probably
tens of thousands of years for particular advances. But today we do not
have to endure these time-spans. Once we reached a certain level of
intelligence we could out-jump the evolutionary process. We could
respond - alter, perceive, create, decide, visualise, mimic - far
faster than the evolutionary process allowed.
Thus - and this is almost a logical point - the evolution of
intelligence would at a certain point be rendered redundant by the
range of skills permitted to creatures who had reached that point.
Looking forward to the usual gracious replies.
Joseph H
www.humanisation.org
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
20 Jun 2005 07:14:46 AM |
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"Joseph H" <joseph@humanisation.org> wrote
Seems like a VERY unintelligent question....!
Calling humans "Intelligent" is like calling the Atlantic
Ocean "A large body of salt."
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
20 Jun 2005 08:42:40 AM |
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JTEM wrote:
"Joseph H" <joseph@humanisation.org> wrote
Seems like a VERY unintelligent question....!
Calling humans "Intelligent" is like calling the Atlantic
Ocean "A large body of salt."
Intelligence, of course, can be defined any number of ways - but it
generally refers to a capacity to comprehend appropriately what one
encounters. By the standards of other creatures on this planet human
beings are well-endowed - though not exclusively endowed - in this
area.
Anyway, JTEM, that's not the point here. I'm not actually saying human
beings are intelligent, as such. I'm asking whether we are the most
intelligent beings possible. It's a fine point - and probably requires
some intelligence to see it.
Joseph H
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
20 Jun 2005 08:41:35 PM |
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"Joseph H" <joseph@humanisation.org> wrote
Intelligence, of course, can be defined any number of ways
And then...
I'm not actually saying human beings are intelligent, as
such.
So the definition is quite subjective, and you're not even
saying that humans are in fact intelligent (however we as
individuals choose to define it)....
I'm asking whether we are the most intelligent beings
possible.
Which doesn't make the least bit of sense, unless you
first decide that humans are intelligent.... something you
have not done...
It's a fine point - and probably requires some intelligence
to see it.
There's something you're missing here, and I'm not going to
tell you what it is.
Guess.
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
21 Jun 2005 07:58:52 AM |
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JTEM wrote:
"Joseph H" <joseph@humanisation.org> wrote
Intelligence, of course, can be defined any number of ways
And then...
I'm not actually saying human beings are intelligent, as
such.
So the definition is quite subjective, and you're not even
saying that humans are in fact intelligent (however we as
individuals choose to define it)....
I'm asking whether we are the most intelligent beings
possible.
Which doesn't make the least bit of sense, unless you
first decide that humans are intelligent.... something you
have not done...
It's a fine point - and probably requires some intelligence
to see it.
There's something you're missing here, and I'm not going to
tell you what it is.
Guess.
Yeah, I guessed - and I can see where you're coming from....
But if I might try to make myself a lot clearer:
Whenever I mention human intelligence here on Usenet i invariably get
told in no uncertain terms that we "are not intelligent". This may
simply be the kneejerk reaction "cos we do stupid things we ain't
intelligent" or the more considered "there is some objecive standard
out there which we fail to reach".
Well, of course, there is no objective standard "out there". Saying
that we are intelligent really means only that we are more intelligent
than other creatures.
My posting yesterday was not really concerned with how intelligent we
are but whether we just as intelligent as we could be.
As I say, it is a fine point. Maybe it's not really intelligence you
need to see it, but something else...
Guess.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
21 Jun 2005 03:09:04 PM |
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"Joseph H" <joseph@humanisation.org> wrote
But if I might try to make myself a lot clearer:
Whenever I mention human intelligence here on
Usenet i invariably get told in no uncertain terms
that we "are not intelligent".
Like I said, calling humans intelligent is like calling the
Atlantic ocean a large body of salt.
I'd say that our instincts, as well as our "hardwired"
reactions/functions, define us as much or more so than
any intelligence. That, they are a far larger component.
I'd further state that we are at least as much emotion as
we are "intelligence," if not more so.
And, yeah, you can ask if that small remaining part of
us which isn't biology & isn't emotion is really the
best we -- or anyone else -- can do. But that comes
across as more of a rhetorical question than a serious
call for a debate.
Saying that we are intelligent really means only that
we are more intelligent than other creatures.
So calling a white car "Green" is just saying that it's
more green than a black car?
I know that's not a fair comparison, because, as small
as it might be, intelligence is a human component.
But, like I said, your question comes across as more
rhetorical than an invitation for debate...
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
21 Jun 2005 06:02:11 PM |
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JTEM wrote:
"Joseph H" <joseph@humanisation.org> wrote
But if I might try to make myself a lot clearer:
Whenever I mention human intelligence here on
Usenet i invariably get told in no uncertain terms
that we "are not intelligent".
Like I said, calling humans intelligent is like calling the
Atlantic ocean a large body of salt.
Well now, JTEM, to put it simply: I DON'T UNDERSTAND YOU. That means
one of two things: either I'm a little dim or you're a little dim,
simple as that. This is a joust, JTEM: one of us is going to come off
his horse (presume you're a he).
First of all, just what do you mean by the previous statement? The
Atlantic certainly contains salt - and I have swallowed a lot of it -
but it also contains more than salt. So - please - explain your good
self.
I'd say that our instincts, as well as our "hardwired"
reactions/functions, define us as much or more so than
any intelligence. That, they are a far larger component.
I'd further state that we are at least as much emotion as
we are "intelligence," if not more so.
Well, first here, even if all the above were true (which I accept)it
hardly impacts on my posting. I made a fairly simple statement about
our level of intelligence. I didn't seek to "define" us by intelligence
or suggest that we were "all" intelligence. But I would say this:
regardless as to how we are "aportioned" it is our intelligence which
has been the prime agent in our social, technological and
epistomological advance. These other components/forces - which
certainly constitute a vast part of our natures - have enriched our
emotional and religious and artistic responses to our situation but
have also constituted a hindrance to our every advance.
And, yeah, you can ask if that small remaining part of
us which isn't biology & isn't emotion is really the
best we -- or anyone else -- can do. But that comes
across as more of a rhetorical question than a serious
call for a debate.
Well, yes and no. I see the rhetorical aspect and a debate I'm curently
having with "Nemesis" on alt.atheism (I think) dwells on this. But my
answer to Nemesis draws attention to the worth of knowing - and valuing
- our situation. In the face of so much self-disparagement to know that
we are as intelligent as possible is not an inconsiderable counter.
Saying that we are intelligent really means only that
we are more intelligent than other creatures.
So calling a white car "Green" is just saying that it's
more green than a black car?
I worry about that observation. Saying that we are intell....means, in
the absnce of any objective standard of intelligence, any Universal
i.q. test, that we are in comparative terms more capable than other
creatures.
I know that's not a fair comparison, because, as small
as it might be, intelligence is a human component.
Only a human component? I think you've fallen off your steed, Sir Jtem.
But, like I said, your question comes across as more
rhetorical than an invitation for debate...
Well, thank you for the opportunity to debate my rhetorical question
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
21 Jun 2005 10:53:21 AM |
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Joseph H wrote:
JTEM wrote:
"Joseph H" <joseph@humanisation.org> wrote
Intelligence, of course, can be defined any number of ways
And then...
I'm not actually saying human beings are intelligent, as
such.
So the definition is quite subjective, and you're not even
saying that humans are in fact intelligent (however we as
individuals choose to define it)....
I'm asking whether we are the most intelligent beings
possible.
Which doesn't make the least bit of sense, unless you
first decide that humans are intelligent.... something you
have not done...
It's a fine point - and probably requires some intelligence
to see it.
There's something you're missing here, and I'm not going to
tell you what it is.
Guess.
Yeah, I guessed - and I can see where you're coming from....
But if I might try to make myself a lot clearer:
Whenever I mention human intelligence here on Usenet i invariably get
told in no uncertain terms that we "are not intelligent". This may
simply be the kneejerk reaction "cos we do stupid things we ain't
intelligent" or the more considered "there is some objecive standard
out there which we fail to reach".
Well, of course, there is no objective standard "out there". Saying
that we are intelligent really means only that we are more intelligent
than other creatures.
My posting yesterday was not really concerned with how intelligent we
are but whether we just as intelligent as we could be.
As I say, it is a fine point. Maybe it's not really intelligence you
need to see it, but something else...
Guess.
Yes, I think I see your fine point - but i don't see the point of your
fine point. If we have in some sense reached an "intelligence
precipice"...so what? What's in it for us?
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
21 Jun 2005 11:28:07 AM |
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wrote:
Joseph H wrote:
JTEM wrote:
"Joseph H" <joseph@humanisation.org> wrote
Intelligence, of course, can be defined any number of ways
And then...
I'm not actually saying human beings are intelligent, as
such.
So the definition is quite subjective, and you're not even
saying that humans are in fact intelligent (however we as
individuals choose to define it)....
I'm asking whether we are the most intelligent beings
possible.
Which doesn't make the least bit of sense, unless you
first decide that humans are intelligent.... something you
have not done...
It's a fine point - and probably requires some intelligence
to see it.
There's something you're missing here, and I'm not going to
tell you what it is.
Guess.
Yeah, I guessed - and I can see where you're coming from....
But if I might try to make myself a lot clearer:
Whenever I mention human intelligence here on Usenet i invariably get
told in no uncertain terms that we "are not intelligent". This may
simply be the kneejerk reaction "cos we do stupid things we ain't
intelligent" or the more considered "there is some objecive standard
out there which we fail to reach".
Well, of course, there is no objective standard "out there". Saying
that we are intelligent really means only that we are more intelligent
than other creatures.
My posting yesterday was not really concerned with how intelligent we
are but whether we just as intelligent as we could be.
As I say, it is a fine point. Maybe it's not really intelligence you
need to see it, but something else...
Guess.
Yes, I think I see your fine point - but i don't see the point of your
fine point. If we have in some sense reached an "intelligence
precipice"...so what? What's in it for us?
What's in it for us - for starters - is knowledge of ourselves and our
condition. Much of the world's distress stems from deluded views of our
situation. Particular views and faiths and fundamentalisms engender
discord. To see ourselves fully must be the beginning of some harmony.
Equally, to see ourselves at the cusp of some intelligence curve must
lessen all that nonsense about our stupidity etc and allow us to begin
to come to terms with our capacities - and our uniqueness.
All roads ought to lead to the truth.
Joseph H
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
20 Jun 2005 10:48:16 PM |
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"Joseph H" <joseph@humanisation.org> wrote in message
news:1119265079.730072.296670@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I can see that you're not.
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
20 Jun 2005 10:06:54 PM |
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Joseph H wrote:
Seems like a VERY unintelligent question....!
Two clarifications to begin:
First, by "creature" I mean natural product of the evolutionary
process, not some engineered conglomorate of the future.
Agreed.
Second; I know nothing. How did intelligence evolve? Was it some
chance mutation, as we say, or some gradual favouring over time or a
cumulative build-up of cognitive capacity as we responded in different
ways to the challenges and crises of existence? Maybe some kind
gentleman out there will dispense the latest thinking in this area.
I have no defensible idea. Since we have quite a few examples of
other species with considerable intelligence, I doubt that came about
as an accumulation of many changes.
(Sorry, madam, but you have been very quiet over there)
But...my point:
Our accumulating response to the challenges of existence would not have
been hasty.
It looks that way to me.
Today we could not conceive of these time-spans, probably
tens of thousands of years for particular advances. But today we do not
have to endure these time-spans. Once we reached a certain level of
intelligence we could out-jump the evolutionary process.
But that would break your first assumption.
We could
respond - alter, perceive, create, decide, visualise, mimic - far
faster than the evolutionary process allowed.
But evolutionary changes are what gave us the capacity to do those
things. Having some ability and using it does not give more ability.
Thus - and this is almost a logical point - the evolution of
intelligence would at a certain point be rendered redundant by the
range of skills permitted to creatures who had reached that point.
If that were the case, the only difference in achievable intelligence
between a genius and a moron would be the experiences they have had,
so far. This is quite apparently not the case. A lifetime of musical
experiences would not make me the musical equal of Mozart at age 5.
Looking forward to the usual gracious replies.
Joseph H
www.humanisation.org
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| User: "Niels van der Linden" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
20 Jun 2005 10:34:57 PM |
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Thus - and this is almost a logical point - the evolution of
intelligence would at a certain point be rendered redundant by the
range of skills permitted to creatures who had reached that point.
If that were the case, the only difference in achievable intelligence
between a genius and a moron would be the experiences they have had, so
far. This is quite apparently not the case. A lifetime of musical
experiences would not make me the musical equal of Mozart at age 5.
Not with that attitude ;-)
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
21 Jun 2005 08:27:54 AM |
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John Popelish wrote:
Joseph H wrote:
Seems like a VERY unintelligent question....!
Two clarifications to begin:
First, by "creature" I mean natural product of the evolutionary
process, not some engineered conglomorate of the future.
Agreed.
Second; I know nothing. How did intelligence evolve? Was it some
chance mutation, as we say, or some gradual favouring over time or a
cumulative build-up of cognitive capacity as we responded in different
ways to the challenges and crises of existence? Maybe some kind
gentleman out there will dispense the latest thinking in this area.
I have no defensible idea. Since we have quite a few examples of
other species with considerable intelligence, I doubt that came about
as an accumulation of many changes.
Don't agree. What can intelligence be but a massive accumulation and
aggrandisement of some elemental chemical response? The level of
intelligence we possess could not have occurred in one vast swoop. It
had to accumulate over time. Is this heresy?
(Sorry, madam, but you have been very quiet over there)
But...my point:
Our accumulating response to the challenges of existence would not have
been hasty.
It looks that way to me.
Today we could not conceive of these time-spans, probably
tens of thousands of years for particular advances. But today we do not
have to endure these time-spans. Once we reached a certain level of
intelligence we could out-jump the evolutionary process.
But that would break your first assumption.
No, it would not. Because the possession of a certain critical level of
intelligence would enable the possessor to create and construct such a
range of "life-aids" - beliefs, social structures, artifacts, stories
etc - that most of the deepset problems and worries which had driven
(up) intelligence previously would now be solved.
We could
respond - alter, perceive, create, decide, visualise, mimic - far
faster than the evolutionary process allowed.
But evolutionary changes are what gave us the capacity to do those
things. Having some ability and using it does not give more ability.
That "capacity" you refer to is now innate. The products we create
using that capacity certainly do not increase our intelligence - but
they render any further increase unneccessary. Do I make sense?
Thus - and this is almost a logical point - the evolution of
intelligence would at a certain point be rendered redundant by the
range of skills permitted to creatures who had reached that point.
If that were the case, the only difference in achievable intelligence
between a genius and a moron would be the experiences they have had,
so far. This is quite apparently not the case. A lifetime of musical
experiences would not make me the musical equal of Mozart at age 5.
I think you are looking at this from the point of view of one
individual life. I am looking at the life-span of the species.
Looking forward to the usual gracious replies.
Great posting. Thanbk you.
Joseph H
www.humanisation.org
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
21 Jun 2005 08:35:35 AM |
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John Popelish wrote:
Joseph H wrote:
Seems like a VERY unintelligent question....!
Two clarifications to begin:
First, by "creature" I mean natural product of the evolutionary
process, not some engineered conglomorate of the future.
Agreed.
Second; I know nothing. How did intelligence evolve? Was it some
chance mutation, as we say, or some gradual favouring over time or a
cumulative build-up of cognitive capacity as we responded in different
ways to the challenges and crises of existence? Maybe some kind
gentleman out there will dispense the latest thinking in this area.
I have no defensible idea. Since we have quite a few examples of
other species with considerable intelligence, I doubt that came about
as an accumulation of many changes.
Don't agree. What can intelligence be other than a vast accumulation
and agrandisement of some elementary chemcial responses? A level of
intelligence such as we possess could not have happened in one fell
swoop.
(Sorry, madam, but you have been very quiet over there)
But...my point:
Our accumulating response to the challenges of existence would not have
been hasty.
It looks that way to me.
Today we could not conceive of these time-spans, probably
tens of thousands of years for particular advances. But today we do not
have to endure these time-spans. Once we reached a certain level of
intelligence we could out-jump the evolutionary process.
But that would break your first assumption.
Not really. Once we reach a certain critical level of intelligence we
then possess the ability to respond to crises by something we create -
art, religion, organisation, technology etc. We no longer have to wait
for the next jump in intelligence.
We could
respond - alter, perceive, create, decide, visualise, mimic - far
faster than the evolutionary process allowed.
But evolutionary changes are what gave us the capacity to do those
things. Having some ability and using it does not give more ability.
But i never said it did. That critical level of intelligence enables us
to solve our problems - eventually. We don't become any more
intelligent. We just create something.
Thus - and this is almost a logical point - the evolution of
intelligence would at a certain point be rendered redundant by the
range of skills permitted to creatures who had reached that point.
If that were the case, the only difference in achievable intelligence
between a genius and a moron would be the experiences they have had,
so far. This is quite apparently not the case. A lifetime of musical
experiences would not make me the musical equal of Mozart at age 5.
I think, if I may say so, that you are looking at this from the point
of view of the life of one individual. I am looking at the life-span of
the species.
Looking forward to the usual gracious replies.
Great posting. Thank you.
Joseph H
www.humanisation.org
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
20 Jun 2005 08:50:51 AM |
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Joseph H wrote:
Seems like a VERY unintelligent question....!
I don't see how we'd know, considering how little we
know about the existance of life in the universe and
the nature of intelligence. At best we can say we're
the most intelligent creatures we know of, and we
can imagine creatures more intelligent than we are.
Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
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| User: "*G* *O* *D* *S* *C* *R* *E* *A* *T* *O* *R*" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
20 Jun 2005 06:41:45 PM |
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wrote:
Joseph H wrote:
Seems like a VERY unintelligent question....!
I don't see how we'd know, considering how little we
know about the existance of life in the universe and
the nature of intelligence. At best we can say we're
the most intelligent creatures we know of, and we
can imagine creatures more intelligent than we are.
Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
Thus Spake God's Creator; (I don't forgive *****!)
And, it depends on;
whose/what, standard/yard-stick *YOU* use...
GOD'S CREATOR
...That was my only sin... :(
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wise men explore the unknown seeking more wisdom, while other
men fall on their hands and knees and start mumbling...
Todays U.S. Holy Wars News:
http://www.antiwar.com
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
20 Jun 2005 06:58:31 PM |
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*G* *O* *D* *S* *C* *R* *E* *A* *T* *O* *R* wrote:
firelock_ny@hotmail.com wrote:
Joseph H wrote:
Seems like a VERY unintelligent question....!
I don't see how we'd know, considering how little we
know about the existance of life in the universe and
the nature of intelligence. At best we can say we're
the most intelligent creatures we know of, and we
can imagine creatures more intelligent than we are.
Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
Thus Spake God's Creator; (I don't forgive *****!)
And, it depends on;
whose/what, standard/yard-stick *YOU* use...
GOD'S CREATOR
...That was my only sin... :(
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wise men explore the unknown seeking more wisdom, while other
men fall on their hands and knees and start mumbling...
Todays U.S. Holy Wars News:
http://www.antiwar.com
Jeez, I'm scared
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
20 Jun 2005 09:47:46 AM |
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wrote:
Joseph H wrote:
Seems like a VERY unintelligent question....!
I don't see how we'd know, considering how little we
know about the existance of life in the universe and
the nature of intelligence.
Agree totally. But I'd just like to refer back to my concluding remark.
If intelligence - as we know it - increased in a natural evolutionary
way must there not come a point when creatures become intelligent
enough to devize solutions to their problems without having to wait for
evolution's natural course. In that case, I suggest, natural
intelligence would level off at that point as artificial means took
over. This process would occur at a certain point - clearly not lower
than our intelligence and why would creatures more intelligent than we
are wait any longer than they have to to exploit their intelligence?
Probably not making any sense...
At best we can say we're
the most intelligent creatures we know of, and we
can imagine creatures more intelligent than we are.
We can certainly imagine they exist. But can we imagine how their
intelligence works?
Joseph H
Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
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| User: "Candide" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
20 Jun 2005 04:00:07 PM |
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Joseph H wrote:
Thus - and this is almost a logical point - the evolution of
intelligence would at a certain point be rendered redundant by the
range of skills permitted to creatures who had reached that point.
Still trying to get my head around that. Its either very intelligent - or not at all. Suspect the latter
Candide
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| User: "Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
21 Jun 2005 11:35:29 AM |
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Joseph H wrote:
[...]
First, by "creature" I mean natural product of the evolutionary
process, not some engineered conglomorate of the future.
[...]
If intelligence might be described as the ability to correlate various
different observations -- fitting different factoids together (tasty
termites live in a hole and a grass stalk might fit in a hole) then we
might also wonder if psychosis and paranoia would result if
correlations were formed too easily.
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
21 Jun 2005 12:26:02 PM |
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Dave wrote:
Joseph H wrote:
[...]
First, by "creature" I mean natural product of the evolutionary
process, not some engineered conglomorate of the future.
[...]
If intelligence might be described as the ability to correlate various
different observations -- fitting different factoids together (tasty
termites live in a hole and a grass stalk might fit in a hole) then we
might also wonder if psychosis and paranoia would result if
correlations were formed too easily.
I'm so far out of my depth here thatI might well be that termite in the
hole....
But...I suggest...that it is not the ease of the correlations that is
at issue here but the nature of them. Someone with a finely-honed mind
- a comedian, say - may find correlations all over the place but never
be deemed to be psychotic etc. Someone else, however, someone going
through some personal trauma might link things in a way that the rest
of us would find eccentric or disturbing.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
21 Jun 2005 01:34:14 PM |
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Joseph H wrote:
Dave wrote:
Joseph H wrote:
[...]
First, by "creature" I mean natural product of the evolutionary
process, not some engineered conglomorate of the future.
[...]
If intelligence might be described as the ability to correlate various
different observations -- fitting different factoids together (tasty
termites live in a hole and a grass stalk might fit in a hole) then we
might also wonder if psychosis and paranoia would result if
correlations were formed too easily.
I'm so far out of my depth here thatI might well be that termite in the
hole....
But...I suggest...that it is not the ease of the correlations that is
at issue here but the nature of them. Someone with a finely-honed mind
- a comedian, say - may find correlations all over the place but never
be deemed to be psychotic etc. Someone else, however, someone going
through some personal trauma might link things in a way that the rest
of us would find eccentric or disturbing.
Yes, but Joseph, once again you're setting yourself as the oracle of
all things. What, I ask, has this got to do with your original posting?
You say we have reached the limits of natural intelligence - is that
the case?
Does that confer any bounty on us? Can we feel assured that such
intelligence as we possess will eventually see us create a decent
society? If there is a "logical limit" to our intelligence is there any
equal logical limit to a society we might be able to create or expect?
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
22 Jun 2005 02:23:56 PM |
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wrote:
Joseph H wrote:
Dave wrote:
Joseph H wrote:
[...]
First, by "creature" I mean natural product of the evolutionary
process, not some engineered conglomorate of the future.
[...]
If intelligence might be described as the ability to correlate various
different observations -- fitting different factoids together (tasty
termites live in a hole and a grass stalk might fit in a hole) then we
might also wonder if psychosis and paranoia would result if
correlations were formed too easily.
I'm so far out of my depth here thatI might well be that termite in the
hole....
But...I suggest...that it is not the ease of the correlations that is
at issue here but the nature of them. Someone with a finely-honed mind
- a comedian, say - may find correlations all over the place but never
be deemed to be psychotic etc. Someone else, however, someone going
through some personal trauma might link things in a way that the rest
of us would find eccentric or disturbing.
Yes, but Joseph, once again you're setting yourself as the oracle of
all things. What, I ask, has this got to do with your original posting?
You say we have reached the limits of natural intelligence - is that
the case?
Does that confer any bounty on us? Can we feel assured that such
intelligence as we possess will eventually see us create a decent
society? If there is a "logical limit" to our intelligence is there any
equal logical limit to a society we might be able to create or expect?
Certainly, we can not feel assured that the intelligence we possess
must necessarily lead to some great society. There are no certainties
here. It would be somewhat ironic, however, if we, the most intelligent
crittter around, were the only one not to forge a society commensurate
with our abilities.
Joseph H
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
22 Jun 2005 05:29:36 PM |
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Joseph H wrote:
Certainly, we can not feel assured that the intelligence we possess
must necessarily lead to some great society. There are no certainties
here. It would be somewhat ironic, however, if we, the most intelligent
crittter around, were the only one not to forge a society commensurate
with our abilities.
Don't understand that last sentence. Are all other creatures deemed to
have "forged" societies commensurate with their abilities? And, if we
are the most intelligent, why have we not done so yet?
Nemesis
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
23 Jun 2005 03:24:03 AM |
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wrote:
Joseph H wrote:
Certainly, we can not feel assured that the intelligence we possess
must necessarily lead to some great society. There are no certainties
here. It would be somewhat ironic, however, if we, the most intelligent
crittter around, were the only one not to forge a society commensurate
with our abilities.
Don't understand that last sentence. Are all other creatures deemed to
have "forged" societies commensurate with their abilities? And, if we
are the most intelligent, why have we not done so yet?
Nemesis
Because human society has so many more dimensions than other societies.
We constantly change. Our abilities - knowledge, technology, art etc-
constantly introduce new elements and challenges. Also, we become
diffferent to each other. Language and culture separates us. Thus,
contact is threatening. To gain "control" of all these variables is a
fraught exercise - and will always be a fraught exercise. I would
suggest that if a computer-model of the human colonisation of the
planet were to be generated the projected outcome would not too
different from the actual outcome.
Joseph H
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
23 Jun 2005 12:27:22 PM |
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Joseph H wrote:
Nemesis_2@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
Joseph H wrote:
Certainly, we can not feel assured that the intelligence we possess
must necessarily lead to some great society. There are no certainties
here. It would be somewhat ironic, however, if we, the most intelligent
crittter around, were the only one not to forge a society commensurate
with our abilities.
Don't understand that last sentence. Are all other creatures deemed to
have "forged" societies commensurate with their abilities? And, if we
are the most intelligent, why have we not done so yet?
Nemesis
Because human society has so many more dimensions than other societies.
We constantly change. Our abilities - knowledge, technology, art etc-
constantly introduce new elements and challenges. Also, we become
diffferent to each other. Language and culture separates us. Thus,
contact is threatening. To gain "control" of all these variables is a
fraught exercise - and will always be a fraught exercise. I would
suggest that if a computer-model of the human colonisation of the
planet were to be generated the projected outcome would not too
different from the actual outcome.
Joseph H
you seem to be saying - almost - that our history was pre-programmed,
or at least programmed. Might be the same thing! I don't suppose you
can post-programme...:-)
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
23 Jun 2005 12:43:15 PM |
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wrote:
you seem to be saying - almost - that our history was pre-programmed,
or at least programmed. Might be the same thing! I don't suppose you
can post-programme...:-)
No, I don't believe our history was programmed at all. But there are
not too many variables here and quite a few constants. The world is a
fixed size; we have a fairly finite range of intelligence; we could up
to recently move only a very finite distance every day; revolutions in
thought or technology are a genuine variable - but how they are
received, or rsisted, is fairly constant; we all tend to create
beliefs; we adhere fixedly to our cultures; our crops or animals are
vulnerable in similar ways (water, over-harvesting etc) everywhere; we
follow leaders with some dedication....
What I'm saying is that this is not chaos. This is a creature moving
across a planet and replicating fairly standard forms - of agreement,
of belief, of control etc - everywhere. Put that in a computer...and i
reckon you will get what we fondly call HUMAN HISTORY.
My overall point - as you may know by now - is that in our age we have
reached a particular culmination of this process. Most of the great
errors and most of the great tyrannies that arose out of the process
are gone and we may finally be human.
My fear - and you may it by now - is that we are so busily seizing on
the pleasures of being human that we ahrdly realiz, or care, where're
we got to. Thus, in the absence of a solid recognition of human
achievement and a determination and dedication to completing our work
here, we allow the zealots to regroup.
Joseph H
www.humanisation.org
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
23 Jun 2005 04:56:54 PM |
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Joseph H wrote:
Nemesi...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
you seem to be saying - almost - that our history was pre-programmed,
or at least programmed. Might be the same thing! I don't suppose you
can post-programme...:-)
No, I don't believe our history was programmed at all. But there are
not too many variables here and quite a few constants. The world is a
fixed size; we have a fairly finite range of intelligence; we could up
to recently move only a very finite distance every day; revolutions in
thought or technology are a genuine variable - but how they are
received, or rsisted, is fairly constant; we all tend to create
beliefs; we adhere fixedly to our cultures; our crops or animals are
vulnerable in similar ways (water, over-harvesting etc) everywhere; we
follow leaders with some dedication....
I think you are a little too sanguine. Any one of these variables could
throw the entire process out of kilter. Climatologists know that. They
have almost given up on long-range (30 day) weather-forecasting. You're
forecasting 200,000 years of history.
What I'm saying is that this is not chaos. This is a creature moving
across a planet and replicating fairly standard forms - of agreement,
of belief, of control etc - everywhere. Put that in a computer...and i
reckon you will get what we fondly call HUMAN HISTORY.
Getting even more sanguine. Who could have forecast the chaos that
agriculture, say, would bring or the Industrial Revolution?
My overall point - as you may know by now - is that in our age we have
reached a particular culmination of this process. Most of the great
errors and most of the great tyrannies that arose out of the process
are gone and we may finally be human.
We were always human....! No, I know what you mean.
My fear - and you may it by now - is that we are so busily seizing on
the pleasures of being human that we ahrdly realiz, or care, where're
we got to. Thus, in the absence of a solid recognition of human
achievement and a determination and dedication to completing our work
here, we allow the zealots to regroup.
They never went away.
Joseph H
www.humanisation.org
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
23 Jun 2005 05:32:26 PM |
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wrote:
Joseph H wrote:
Nemesi...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
you seem to be saying - almost - that our history was pre-programmed,
or at least programmed. Might be the same thing! I don't suppose you
can post-programme...:-)
No, I don't believe our history was programmed at all. But there are
not too many variables here and quite a few constants. The world is a
fixed size; we have a fairly finite range of intelligence; we could up
to recently move only a very finite distance every day; revolutions in
thought or technology are a genuine variable - but how they are
received, or rsisted, is fairly constant; we all tend to create
beliefs; we adhere fixedly to our cultures; our crops or animals are
vulnerable in similar ways (water, over-harvesting etc) everywhere; we
follow leaders with some dedication....
I think you are a little too sanguine. Any one of these variables could
throw the entire process out of kilter. Climatologists know that. They
have almost given up on long-range (30 day) weather-forecasting. You're
forecasting 200,000 years of history.
First of all, I'm not forecasting anything. The history has happened.
I'm simply saying that a good computer model would probably give a
result not too dissiimilar from what actually happened. And which
variable would throw the process out of kilter? Certainly, this or that
conquest or dynasty could easily have been turned over; certainly there
would have been, or could have been, huge alterations in the lives of
whole peoples for generations...but the long-term drift - small groups,
larger groups, federations of some sort, crises of some sort, conquest
or domination of some sort..etc would have stayed roughly the same.
What I'm saying is that this is not chaos. This is a creature moving
across a planet and replicating fairly standard forms - of agreement,
of belief, of control etc - everywhere. Put that in a computer...and i
reckon you will get what we fondly call HUMAN HISTORY.
Getting even more sanguine. Who could have forecast the chaos that
agriculture, say, would bring or the Industrial Revolution?
Agriculture? The land produces. It was only a matter a time before an
intelligent creature learned to control that growth. Numbers would have
increased. Some chaos would eventualy have resulted, particularly when
early methods failed....the patterns could be foreseen.
My overall point - as you may know by now - is that in our age we have
reached a particular culmination of this process. Most of the great
errors and most of the great tyrannies that arose out of the process
are gone and we may finally be human.
We were always human....! No, I know what you mean.
Good.
My fear - and you may it by now - is that we are so busily seizing on
the pleasures of being human that we ahrdly realiz, or care, where're
we got to. Thus, in the absence of a solid recognition of human
achievement and a determination and dedication to completing our work
here, we allow the zealots to regroup.
They never went away.
Of course not. But they weren't quite so buoyant as they are not. We
have given them heart - and hope, hope that a fantasy is true.
Joseph H
www.humanisation.org
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| User: "Niels van der Linden" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
20 Jun 2005 12:23:17 PM |
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Martin Rees's latest three-part-video "What we still don't know" dives into
this subject.
Two things they've found:
* Brain may get larger, but it'll shortly reach a point where it'll be
bottlenecked (intelligence-wise) because of larger distances internally.
* In the future we might see the trend of parts of the brain being replaced
with artificial computing power. Further on the way it can even be
substituted entirely (which will give way to new, vastly weirdening,
possibilities).
Niels
PS Mvgroup.org
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: Are we the most intelligent creature possible? |
20 Jun 2005 02:04:00 PM |
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Niels van der Linden wrote:
* Brain may get larger, but it'll shortly reach a point where it'll be
bottlenecked (intelligence-wise) because of larger distances internally.
Hmmm. Chemicals could make the leap. Saw a report in the London Sunday
Times yesterday that more and more people are taking to such drugs as
ritalin to stimulate brain-performance. They might stimulate
performance but do they stimulate intelligence?
* In the future we might see the trend of parts of the brain being replaced
with artificial computing power. Further on the way it can even be
substituted entirely (which will give way to new, vastly weirdening,
possibilities).
I'm looking forward to it already.
Niels
PS Mvgroup.org
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