| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Clothaire" |
| Date: |
09 Feb 2005 07:15:14 PM |
| Object: |
Are You Open Minded? |
Fundies like to ask tough questions. It is better to have a good
offense than to be defensive all of the time. David Ford is an
example of an inveterate question poser. Unfortunately most Fundie
questions are of the so called complex question type--they have built
in assumptions--or in the vernacular they are loaded questions like
"Have you stopped beating your wife?"
If you answer the question, then you appear to have agreed to the
built in assumption; if you don't answer the question and take the
high road that it is not worthy of your consideration, then the Fundie
immediately claims victory after attacking your morality and
character.
"Are you open minded?" is a favorite Fundie question. It plays on
'equivocation' one of the three most used Fundie logical fallacies:
Circular Reasoning
Equivocation Mixing multiple definitions in the
same argument
Non sequitur (Does God exist? Ans: Just look
around you.)
To a fundie "Do you have an open mind?" means "Are you willing to
listen to my religious spiel?" Being open minded is supposed to be a
virtue. They will point out that scientist are always ready to change
their mind about science theories. That is true; but, on the other
hand, most of science consists of settled notions about reality. The
purpose of science is to decide and record what is known with almost
certainty; the unknown items are then worked on. There is no point in
being open minded about facts. I have two lists--here are examples:
1. Things I am open minded about
The frontiers of science as discussed by scientists
2. Things I'm closed minded about
Known Scientific facts
Evolution as a fact
Gravity
Creationism as nonsense
Intelligent Design as bogus religion
All religions
Known astronomical data
What my name is
Fundies have another ploy in mind when they ask the question that is
the subject to this post. It is a nice entry to the argument for
agnosticism. The Catholic Church, like Fundies, doesn't like
in-your-face atheists; it prefers hat-in-hand agnostic who comes to it
saying, " I don't know."
Fundie: Are you open minded?
Atheist: Well, yes, of course.
Fundie: Then you admit that there some things that you don't know.
Atheist: There are lots of thing that I don't know.
Fundie: Then you can't be certain about atheism--you are actually an
agnostic.
....and so the argument goes..
After enjoying 60 years as a happy atheist I am closed minded about
religion. They had 2000 years to prove their case. Their checkered
record is getting worse every day.
Open mindedness is a virtue, if and only if you use it correctly.
Clothaire #1392
"Imagine the people who believe such things
and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally,
all the patient findings of thinking minds through
all the centuries since the Bible was written.
And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated,
the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us,
who would make themselves the guides and leaders of
us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs
on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and
homes. I personally resent it bitterly..."
-- Isaac Asimov
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| User: "Jim07D5" |
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| Title: Re: Are You Open Minded? |
09 Feb 2005 07:23:28 PM |
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Clothaire <clothaire@ieee.org> said:
Fundies like to ask tough questions. It is better to have a good
offense than to be defensive all of the time. David Ford is an
example of an inveterate question poser. Unfortunately most Fundie
questions are of the so called complex question type--they have built
in assumptions--or in the vernacular they are loaded questions like
"Have you stopped beating your wife?"
If you answer the question, then you appear to have agreed to the
built in assumption; if you don't answer the question and take the
high road that it is not worthy of your consideration, then the Fundie
immediately claims victory after attacking your morality and
character.
"Are you open minded?" is a favorite Fundie question. ,,,
A favorite question of EST and Lifespring interrogators was, "Are you
willing to consider the possibility that you are wrong?" For those who
don't know about remember them, at their peak they were a shade or two
removed, at best, from cultism.
A reply is, Are you?
Jim07D5
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| User: "Frank J Warner" |
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| Title: Re: Are You Open Minded? |
09 Feb 2005 08:42:03 PM |
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In article <ural01des2phjj5av0j5qs88dv9facpjjm@4ax.com>, Clothaire
<clothaire@ieee.org> wrote:
After enjoying 60 years as a happy atheist I am closed minded about
religion. They had 2000 years to prove their case. Their checkered
record is getting worse every day.
I couldn't agree more.
It's good to see you back, Clothaire. I've wondered about you several
times in the past couple of years. Hope things are well for you.
You won't recognize me under this name but I've participated in this
newsgroup for at least ten years and always appreciated your posts.
-Frank
--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com
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| User: "Clothaire" |
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| Title: Re: Are You Open Minded? |
10 Feb 2005 12:13:59 AM |
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On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:42:03 -0800, Frank J Warner
<warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon.net> wrote:
In article <ural01des2phjj5av0j5qs88dv9facpjjm@4ax.com>, Clothaire
<clothaire@ieee.org> wrote:
After enjoying 60 years as a happy atheist I am closed minded about
religion. They had 2000 years to prove their case. Their checkered
record is getting worse every day.
I couldn't agree more.
It's good to see you back, Clothaire. I've wondered about you several
times in the past couple of years. Hope things are well for you.
You won't recognize me under this name but I've participated in this
newsgroup for at least ten years and always appreciated your posts.
-Frank
Frank, thanks for the kind words.
I have had to adjust to a lower class of women as I grow older; but
nothing else has changed much.
Clothaire #1392
Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."
Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "DaveJr" |
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| Title: Re: Are You Open Minded? |
11 Feb 2005 11:08:11 PM |
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After enjoying 60 years as a happy atheist I am closed minded about
religion. They had 2000 years to prove their case. Their checkered
record is getting worse every day.
I couldn't agree more.
It's good to see you back, Clothaire. I've wondered about you several
times in the past couple of years. Hope things are well for you.
You won't recognize me under this name but I've participated in this
newsgroup for at least ten years and always appreciated your posts.
-Frank
Frank, thanks for the kind words.
I have had to adjust to a lower class of women as I grow older; but
nothing else has changed much.
Clothaire #1392
Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."
Thomas Jefferson
NICELY PUT POST! Hats off. Over a year ago, I've had to totally disconnect
a friend that I've known since high school. He went through hard
times(divorce,kids,dead end job etc..) and got sucked into what my family
calls "jailhouse religion". He was constantly trying to suck me in
aswell. Trying all kinds of little physiological tricks. He would also
challenge me to look stuff up on the internet that would confirm the rubbish
he would hear on the radio. One such example was his 'challenge' to
research the Van Allen radiation belt. Claiming as recent as 4,000 years
ago, it was so close to the earth that nothing lived. He would also often
claim that I was "conditioned by the education system" and "lied to". It's
his children that I feel sorry for.
.
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: Are You Open Minded? |
12 Feb 2005 01:20:05 AM |
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"DaveJr" <davesbrain@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:PbgPd.54$ZJ.14123@news.uswest.net...
After enjoying 60 years as a happy atheist I am closed minded about
religion. They had 2000 years to prove their case. Their checkered
record is getting worse every day.
I couldn't agree more.
It's good to see you back, Clothaire. I've wondered about you several
times in the past couple of years. Hope things are well for you.
You won't recognize me under this name but I've participated in this
newsgroup for at least ten years and always appreciated your posts.
-Frank
Frank, thanks for the kind words.
I have had to adjust to a lower class of women as I grow older; but
nothing else has changed much.
Wazzat? How ya doing, Clothaire!? It's been too long since you
were last here. I hope you're rejoining us.
Mickey
Clothaire #1392
Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."
Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "Clothaire" |
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| Title: Re: Are You Open Minded? |
13 Feb 2005 04:08:55 PM |
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On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:20:05 -0500, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
"DaveJr" <davesbrain@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:PbgPd.54$ZJ.14123@news.uswest.net...
After enjoying 60 years as a happy atheist I am closed minded about
religion. They had 2000 years to prove their case. Their checkered
record is getting worse every day.
I couldn't agree more.
It's good to see you back, Clothaire. I've wondered about you several
times in the past couple of years. Hope things are well for you.
You won't recognize me under this name but I've participated in this
newsgroup for at least ten years and always appreciated your posts.
-Frank
Frank, thanks for the kind words.
I have had to adjust to a lower class of women as I grow older; but
nothing else has changed much.
Wazzat? How ya doing, Clothaire!? It's been too long since you
were last here. I hope you're rejoining us.
Mickey
Clothaire #1392
Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."
Thomas Jefferson
Michelle, I have been here all along. All of the atheists in
alt.atheism are so top-notch in bashing fundies that now I just sit
back and watch.
Clothaire #1392
The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of
bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation, and experience
merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be
relieved only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called
'faith.' Robert Green Ingersoll
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: Are You Open Minded? |
13 Feb 2005 08:52:14 PM |
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"Clothaire" <clothaire@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:gbjv01hoqsjeg2rkiii2aa29rdnks3otse@4ax.com...
On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:20:05 -0500, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
"DaveJr" <davesbrain@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:PbgPd.54$ZJ.14123@news.uswest.net...
After enjoying 60 years as a happy atheist I am closed minded
about
religion. They had 2000 years to prove their case. Their
checkered
record is getting worse every day.
I couldn't agree more.
It's good to see you back, Clothaire. I've wondered about you
several
times in the past couple of years. Hope things are well for you.
You won't recognize me under this name but I've participated in this
newsgroup for at least ten years and always appreciated your posts.
-Frank
Frank, thanks for the kind words.
I have had to adjust to a lower class of women as I grow older; but
nothing else has changed much.
Wazzat? How ya doing, Clothaire!? It's been too long since you
were last here. I hope you're rejoining us.
Mickey
Clothaire #1392
Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."
Thomas Jefferson
Michelle, I have been here all along. All of the atheists in
alt.atheism are so top-notch in bashing fundies that now I just sit
back and watch.
Clothaire #1392
That's good to know. I've always enjoyed your messages.
The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of
bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation, and experience
merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be
relieved only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called
'faith.' Robert Green Ingersoll
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Are You Open Minded? |
12 Feb 2005 07:45:50 AM |
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On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:08:11 -0700, "DaveJr" <davesbrain@qwest.net>
wrote:
NICELY PUT POST! Hats off. Over a year ago, I've had to totally disconnect
a friend that I've known since high school. He went through hard
times(divorce,kids,dead end job etc..) and got sucked into what my family
calls "jailhouse religion". He was constantly trying to suck me in
aswell. Trying all kinds of little physiological tricks. He would also
challenge me to look stuff up on the internet that would confirm the rubbish
he would hear on the radio. One such example was his 'challenge' to
research the Van Allen radiation belt. Claiming as recent as 4,000 years
ago, it was so close to the earth that nothing lived. He would also often
claim that I was "conditioned by the education system" and "lied to". It's
his children that I feel sorry for.
Seriously how does one deal with these loonies, especially if one has
to live among them?
Your ex-fiend is just plain stupid. Totally out of touch with reality
and can't interact with those who aren't as stupid. Yet in many parts
of the country they form a majority - and even where they aren't, they
polarise it.
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Are You Open Minded? |
14 Feb 2005 01:37:11 PM |
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On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 08:45:50 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:08:11 -0700, "DaveJr" <davesbrain@qwest.net>
wrote:
NICELY PUT POST! Hats off. Over a year ago, I've had to totally disconnect
a friend that I've known since high school. He went through hard
times(divorce,kids,dead end job etc..) and got sucked into what my family
calls "jailhouse religion". He was constantly trying to suck me in
aswell. Trying all kinds of little physiological tricks. He would also
challenge me to look stuff up on the internet that would confirm the rubbish
he would hear on the radio. One such example was his 'challenge' to
research the Van Allen radiation belt. Claiming as recent as 4,000 years
ago, it was so close to the earth that nothing lived. He would also often
claim that I was "conditioned by the education system" and "lied to". It's
his children that I feel sorry for.
Seriously how does one deal with these loonies, especially if one has
to live among them?
Blow them off.
Your ex-fiend is just plain stupid. Totally out of touch with reality
and can't interact with those who aren't as stupid. Yet in many parts
of the country they form a majority - and even where they aren't, they
polarise it.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Are You Open Minded? |
09 Feb 2005 08:16:36 PM |
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On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 20:15:14 -0500, Clothaire <clothaire@ieee.org>
wrote:
Fundies like to ask tough questions. It is better to have a good
offense than to be defensive all of the time. David Ford is an
example of an inveterate question poser. Unfortunately most Fundie
questions are of the so called complex question type--they have built
in assumptions--or in the vernacular they are loaded questions like
"Have you stopped beating your wife?"
Tough? They might think they are - but they're unjustified. And they
pretend that explaining why they're unjustified is being unable to
answer.
IMO they're being deliberately dishonest. And they think they're being
clever.
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