| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"JPG" |
| Date: |
13 Dec 2006 08:17:34 AM |
| Object: |
Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
FROM THE land that produced "A Christmas Carol" and Handel's "Messiah,"
more evidence that Christianity is fading in Western Europe: Nearly 99
percent of Christmas cards sold in Great Britain contain no religious
message or imagery.
Article Tools
"Traditional pictures such as angels blowing trumpets over a stable,
Jesus in his manger, the shepherds and three wise men following the
star to Bethlehem are dying out," the Daily Mail reports. A review of
some 5,500 Christmas cards turns up fewer than 70 that make any
reference to the birth of Jesus. "Hundreds . . . avoided any image
linked to Christmas at all" -- even those with no spiritual
significance, such as Christmas trees or Santa Claus.
Presumably the greeting-card industry is only supplying what the market
demands; if Christian belief and practice weren't vanishing from the
British scene, Christian-themed cards wouldn't be, either. But some
Britons, not all of them devout, are resisting the tide. Writing in the
Telegraph, editor-at-large Jeff Randall -- who describes himself as
"somewhere between an agnostic and a mild believer" -- announces that
any Christmas card he receives that doesn't at least mention the word
"Christmas" goes straight into the trash. "Jettisoning Christmas-less
cards is my tiny, almost certainly futile, gesture against the dark
forces of political correctness," he writes. "It's a swipe at those who
would prefer to abolish Christmas altogether, in case it offends
'minorities.' Someone should tell them that, with only one in 15
Britons going to church on Sundays, Christians are a minority."
Meanwhile, the employment law firm Peninsula says that 75 percent of
British companies have banned Christmas decorations for fear of being
sued by someone who finds the holiday offensive. And it isn't only in
December that this anti-Christian animus rears its head. British
Airways triggered a furor when it ordered an employee to hide the tiny
cross she wears around her neck. At the BBC, senior executives agreed
that they would not air a program showing a Koran being thrown in the
garbage -- but that the trashing of a Bible would be acceptable.
"It's extraordinary," remarks Randall. "In an increasingly godless age,
there is a rising tide of hatred against those who adhere to biblical
values." A "tyrannical minority" of intolerant secularists is openly
contemptuous of traditional moral norms. "The teachings and guidance of
old-fashioned Christianity offend them, so they seek to remove all
traces of it from public life."
Message Board YOUR VIEW: Is religion the best route to ethical
behavior?
You don't have to be especially pious to find this atheist zealotry
alarming. Nor do you have to live in Europe. Though religion remains
important in American life, antireligious passion is surging here, too.
Examples abound: In two recent best sellers , Sam Harris heaps scorn on
religious believers, whose faith he derides as "a few products of
ancient ignorance and derangement." A study in the Journal of Religion
and Society claims that belief in God correlates with higher rates of
homicide, sexual promiscuity, and other social ills, and that when
compared with relatively secular democracies, the churchgoing United
States "is almost always the most dysfunctional." Secular absolutists
demand that schools and government venues be cleansed of any hint of
religious expression -- be it a cross on the Los Angeles County seal, a
courthouse display of the Ten Commandments, or the words "under God" in
the Pledge of Allegiance.
What is at stake in all this isn't just angels on Christmas cards. What
society loses when it discards Judeo-Christian faith and belief in God
is something far more difficult to replace: the value system most
likely to promote ethical behavior and sustain a decent society. That
isbecause without God, the difference between good and evil becomes
purely subjective. What makes murder inherently wrong is not that it
feels wrong,but that a transcendent Creator to whom we are answerable
commands: "Thou shalt not murder." What makes kindness to others
inherently right is not that human reason says so, but that God does:
"Love thy neighbor as thyself; I am the Lord."
Obviously this doesn't mean that religious people are always good, or
that religion itself cannot lead to cruelty. Nor does it mean that
atheists cannot be beautiful, ethical human beings. Belief in God alone
does not guarantee goodness. But belief tethered to clear ethical
values -- Judeo-Christian monotheism -- is society's best bet for
restraining our worst moral impulses and encouraging our best ones.
The atheist alternative is a world in which right and wrong are
ultimately matters of opinion, and in which we are finally accountable
to no one but ourselves. That is anything but a tiding of comfort and
joy.
Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby@globe.com.
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| User: "John Brockbank" |
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| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 02:49:18 PM |
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"JPG" <j_peasemold_gruntfuttock@hotmail.com> wrote
Meanwhile, the employment law firm Peninsula says that 75 percent of
British companies have banned Christmas decorations for fear of being
sued by someone who finds the holiday offensive.
You mean you actually believe that baloney? I think you might be a bit
gullible.
<And it isn't only in
December that this anti-Christian animus rears its head. British
Airways triggered a furor when it ordered an employee to hide the tiny
cross she wears around her neck.
In Britain, news stories about women's dress are legion. It means nothing.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 03:43:33 PM |
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On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:49:18 -0000, "John Brockbank"
<wagley@screaming.net> wrote:
"JPG" <j_peasemold_gruntfuttock@hotmail.com> wrote
<And it isn't only in
December that this anti-Christian animus rears its head. British
Airways triggered a furor when it ordered an employee to hide the tiny
cross she wears around her neck.
In Britain, news stories about women's dress are legion. It means nothing.
And it was a safety issue, not a religion issue. ANYTHING hanging
from the neck is forbidden, not just a cross, for those working in
areas where such adornment poses a safety hazard.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains
premature today."
- Isaac Asimov
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 10:27:02 PM |
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Al Klein wrote:
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:49:18 -0000, "John Brockbank"
<wagley@screaming.net> wrote:
"JPG" <j_peasemold_gruntfuttock@hotmail.com> wrote
<And it isn't only in
December that this anti-Christian animus rears its head. British
Airways triggered a furor when it ordered an employee to hide the tiny
cross she wears around her neck.
In Britain, news stories about women's dress are legion. It means nothing.
And it was a safety issue, not a religion issue. ANYTHING hanging
from the neck is forbidden, not just a cross, for those working in
areas where such adornment poses a safety hazard.
I read some while back that over thirty percent of the British clergy no longer accept
the ascention story..
common sense prevails
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains
premature today."
- Isaac Asimov
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 04:51:54 PM |
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On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:43:33 -0500, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:49:18 -0000, "John Brockbank"
<wagley@screaming.net> wrote:
"JPG" <j_peasemold_gruntfuttock@hotmail.com> wrote
<And it isn't only in
December that this anti-Christian animus rears its head. British
Airways triggered a furor when it ordered an employee to hide the tiny
cross she wears around her neck.
In Britain, news stories about women's dress are legion. It means nothing.
And it was a safety issue, not a religion issue. ANYTHING hanging
from the neck is forbidden, not just a cross, for those working in
areas where such adornment poses a safety hazard.
In the 1980s I worked for a major computer manufacturer, and there
were horror stories of a medallion man who had fried himself when his
gold dangler touched some bus bars.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 05:04:00 PM |
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On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:51:54 -0500, Christopher A.Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
In the 1980s I worked for a major computer manufacturer, and there
were horror stories of a medallion man who had fried himself when his
gold dangler touched some bus bars.
Now imagine putting someone's luggage on the conveyer belt and getting
your cross jammed into the belt. If there's a space down the line
that's too small for a person to pass through, you'll get some of your
favorite parts amputated.
Electrocution's a bad way to go, but getting body parts ripped off?
Well, if she wants her Darwin Award THAT badly ...
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet
assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his
lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back." -
- Tolstoy as/on Jesus
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
23 Dec 2006 02:54:53 PM |
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On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:04:00 -0500, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote
in alt.atheism
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:51:54 -0500, Christopher A.Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
In the 1980s I worked for a major computer manufacturer, and there
were horror stories of a medallion man who had fried himself when his
gold dangler touched some bus bars.
Now imagine putting someone's luggage on the conveyer belt and getting
your cross jammed into the belt. If there's a space down the line
that's too small for a person to pass through, you'll get some of your
favorite parts amputated.
Electrocution's a bad way to go, but getting body parts ripped off?
Well, if she wants her Darwin Award THAT badly ...
Then the airline would be sued for having an 'unsafe workplace.'
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
23 Dec 2006 10:27:59 PM |
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On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 12:54:53 -0800, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:04:00 -0500, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote
in alt.atheism
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:51:54 -0500, Christopher A.Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
In the 1980s I worked for a major computer manufacturer, and there
were horror stories of a medallion man who had fried himself when his
gold dangler touched some bus bars.
Now imagine putting someone's luggage on the conveyer belt and getting
your cross jammed into the belt. If there's a space down the line
that's too small for a person to pass through, you'll get some of your
favorite parts amputated.
Electrocution's a bad way to go, but getting body parts ripped off?
Well, if she wants her Darwin Award THAT badly ...
Then the airline would be sued for having an 'unsafe workplace.'
It's about as unsafe as a chef slitting his wrists with a knife
supplied by the restaurant he works for. Some people just shouldn't
be let out of their cage without a leash.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
24 Dec 2006 10:18:59 PM |
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On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 23:27:59 -0500, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote
in alt.atheism
On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 12:54:53 -0800, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:04:00 -0500, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote
in alt.atheism
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:51:54 -0500, Christopher A.Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
In the 1980s I worked for a major computer manufacturer, and there
were horror stories of a medallion man who had fried himself when his
gold dangler touched some bus bars.
Now imagine putting someone's luggage on the conveyer belt and getting
your cross jammed into the belt. If there's a space down the line
that's too small for a person to pass through, you'll get some of your
favorite parts amputated.
Electrocution's a bad way to go, but getting body parts ripped off?
Well, if she wants her Darwin Award THAT badly ...
Then the airline would be sued for having an 'unsafe workplace.'
It's about as unsafe as a chef slitting his wrists with a knife
supplied by the restaurant he works for. Some people just shouldn't
be let out of their cage without a leash.
Skip the leash.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
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| User: "Jim Hawkins" |
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| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 04:39:34 PM |
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"JPG" <j_peasemold_gruntfuttock@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1166019454.814764.283450@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
Snip
The atheist alternative is a world in which right and wrong are
ultimately matters of opinion, and in which we are finally accountable
to no one but ourselves. That is anything but a tiding of comfort and
joy.
Right and wrong have always been matters of opinion, even for the religious.
The bible and koran contain so much horrific and/or contradictory
commandaments that selection based on the prevailing ideas of right and
wrong has always been the way for the believers.
Read 'The God Delusion', chapter 7 for a detailed description.
Jim Hawkins
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 08:52:14 AM |
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"JPG" <j_peasemold_gruntfuttock@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1166019454.814764.283450@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
FROM THE land that produced "A Christmas Carol" and Handel's "Messiah,"
more evidence that Christianity is fading in Western Europe: Nearly 99
percent of Christmas cards sold in Great Britain contain no religious
message or imagery.
Article Tools
"Traditional pictures such as angels blowing trumpets over a stable,
Jesus in his manger, the shepherds and three wise men following the
star to Bethlehem are dying out," the Daily Mail reports. A review of
some 5,500 Christmas cards turns up fewer than 70 that make any
reference to the birth of Jesus. "Hundreds . . . avoided any image
linked to Christmas at all" -- even those with no spiritual
significance, such as Christmas trees or Santa Claus.
Presumably the greeting-card industry is only supplying what the market
demands; if Christian belief and practice weren't vanishing from the
British scene, Christian-themed cards wouldn't be, either. But some
Britons, not all of them devout, are resisting the tide. Writing in the
Telegraph, editor-at-large Jeff Randall -- who describes himself as
"somewhere between an agnostic and a mild believer" -- announces that
any Christmas card he receives that doesn't at least mention the word
"Christmas" goes straight into the trash. "Jettisoning Christmas-less
cards is my tiny, almost certainly futile, gesture against the dark
forces of political correctness," he writes. "It's a swipe at those who
would prefer to abolish Christmas altogether, in case it offends
'minorities.' Someone should tell them that, with only one in 15
Britons going to church on Sundays, Christians are a minority."
Meanwhile, the employment law firm Peninsula says that 75 percent of
British companies have banned Christmas decorations for fear of being
sued by someone who finds the holiday offensive. And it isn't only in
December that this anti-Christian animus rears its head. British
Airways triggered a furor when it ordered an employee to hide the tiny
cross she wears around her neck. At the BBC, senior executives agreed
that they would not air a program showing a Koran being thrown in the
garbage -- but that the trashing of a Bible would be acceptable.
"It's extraordinary," remarks Randall. "In an increasingly godless age,
there is a rising tide of hatred against those who adhere to biblical
values." A "tyrannical minority" of intolerant secularists is openly
contemptuous of traditional moral norms. "The teachings and guidance of
old-fashioned Christianity offend them, so they seek to remove all
traces of it from public life."
Message Board YOUR VIEW: Is religion the best route to ethical
behavior?
You don't have to be especially pious to find this atheist zealotry
alarming. Nor do you have to live in Europe. Though religion remains
important in American life, antireligious passion is surging here, too.
Examples abound: In two recent best sellers , Sam Harris heaps scorn on
religious believers, whose faith he derides as "a few products of
ancient ignorance and derangement." A study in the Journal of Religion
and Society claims that belief in God correlates with higher rates of
homicide, sexual promiscuity, and other social ills, and that when
compared with relatively secular democracies, the churchgoing United
States "is almost always the most dysfunctional." Secular absolutists
demand that schools and government venues be cleansed of any hint of
religious expression -- be it a cross on the Los Angeles County seal, a
courthouse display of the Ten Commandments, or the words "under God" in
the Pledge of Allegiance.
What is at stake in all this isn't just angels on Christmas cards. What
society loses when it discards Judeo-Christian faith and belief in God
is something far more difficult to replace: the value system most
likely to promote ethical behavior and sustain a decent society. That
isbecause without God, the difference between good and evil becomes
purely subjective. What makes murder inherently wrong is not that it
feels wrong,but that a transcendent Creator to whom we are answerable
commands: "Thou shalt not murder." What makes kindness to others
inherently right is not that human reason says so, but that God does:
"Love thy neighbor as thyself; I am the Lord."
Obviously this doesn't mean that religious people are always good, or
that religion itself cannot lead to cruelty. Nor does it mean that
atheists cannot be beautiful, ethical human beings. Belief in God alone
does not guarantee goodness. But belief tethered to clear ethical
values -- Judeo-Christian monotheism -- is society's best bet for
restraining our worst moral impulses and encouraging our best ones.
The atheist alternative is a world in which right and wrong are
ultimately matters of opinion, and in which we are finally accountable
to no one but ourselves. That is anything but a tiding of comfort and
joy.
Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby@globe.com.
What good is 'faith' in an imaginary 'God' by people who *profess* to
believe in a 'God' but continue to act immorally anyway? Where's that 'walk'
that's supposed to follow the 'talk' on the part of 'Christians' who are
that in name only? There is *really* very little restraining the hypocrites
to do whatever they damn well please. Only by adhering to a *delusion* that
they are 'Christian's' --- to satisfy themselves, no doubt, that they are
ultimately going to an imaginary 'heaven' just for *pretending* to be
one --- are they 'Christians' -- as my treatment out here clearly
demonstrates. The phony-baloney Christians should 'chuck' the charade they
are putting on. It only serves to make them look ridiculous.
As to the central theme of the article: Just how many people would actually
'morph' into a serial killer upon discovering that there *really* is no
'God'? Think about it. We need to call a spade a spade and a phony-baloney
'Christian' a phony-baloney, walking, talking, piece of ... well you know
.... -- like the ones out my way.
The 'Holier than Thou's' must feel like just choking we atheists who possess
even greater 'morals and ethics' than *they* do oftentimes -- and *without*
a Mr. I'm Sooo Imaginary That It Makes "Make-Believe" Pale In Comparison" to
prod us to be that way. We do good things from the goodness of our hearts
instead of to build up points in order to secure a spot in an imagined
after-life. How shallow of them.
Greywolf
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 03:52:11 PM |
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"JPG" <j_peasemold_gruntfuttock@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1166019454.814764.283450@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
snip
The atheist alternative is a world in which right and wrong are
ultimately matters of opinion, and in which we are finally accountable
to no one but ourselves. That is anything but a tiding of comfort and
joy.
What a *****! :P
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
I think religion is so popular because even the village idiot can feel like
Einstein without any effort. - Denis Loubet
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| User: "Lars Eighner" |
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| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 04:00:48 PM |
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In our last episode, <1166019454.814764.283450@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented JPG broadcast on alt.atheism:
Nearly 99 percent of Christmas cards sold in Great Britain contain no
religious message or imagery.
Presumably the greeting-card industry is only supplying what the market
demands;
A "tyrannical minority" of intolerant secularists is openly contemptuous
of traditional moral norms.
Well, the greeting card companies must be glad the "tyrannical minority"
buys so many secular cards. Evidently the oppressed majority sectarians
only buy 1% of the greeting cards.
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner>
War on Terrorism: Treat Viewers like Mushrooms
"It seems perverse to focus too much on the casualties or hardship in
Afghanistan." -Walter Isaacson, _CNN_
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| User: "Kilmir" |
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| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 04:59:31 PM |
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JPG schreef:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
FROM THE land that produced "A Christmas Carol" and Handel's "Messiah,"
more evidence that Christianity is fading in Western Europe: Nearly 99
percent of Christmas cards sold in Great Britain contain no religious
message or imagery.
Article Tools
"Traditional pictures such as angels blowing trumpets over a stable,
Jesus in his manger, the shepherds and three wise men following the
star to Bethlehem are dying out," the Daily Mail reports. A review of
some 5,500 Christmas cards turns up fewer than 70 that make any
reference to the birth of Jesus. "Hundreds . . . avoided any image
linked to Christmas at all" -- even those with no spiritual
significance, such as Christmas trees or Santa Claus.
Wait a minute, didn't we have a thread about this already? Wasn't it
shown that the britisch postal service has a different theme each year?
About every other year there's christian stuff, but the other half have
non-religious things. This year it's non-religious and making a fuss
about it is just plain dishonest and downright stupid.
iirc ofcourse. it could be that coherent thought is even more common
then I expected and xtian stuff really is on a decline.
Kilmir
#1944
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| User: "Santolina chamaecyparissus" |
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| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 09:00:29 PM |
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JPG wrote:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
I sent an e-mail to this individual. The contents were one of the
following:
(A) We atheists are taking over!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! There
is nothing you can do to stop us!!!!!! Resistance is futile!!!!!!
Join us now as we roast babies and WORSHIP LORD SATAN!!!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(B) One hardly knows where to begin when confronted with such an
appalling case of bigotry and ill-considered arguments, so for the sake
of brevity I'll focus on the following:
"But belief tethered to clear ethical values -- Judeo-Christian
monotheism -- is society's best bet for restraining our worst moral
impulses and encouraging our best ones."
Thus, you obviously try to adhere to all the ethical values espoused in
the Judeo-Christian Bible, and if we were to carefully review them we
would find that you unabashedly endorse them all. Is that correct?
***********************
*****. I should have sent (A). Would have made me feel better.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 10:15:21 AM |
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JPG wrote:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
FROM THE land that produced "A Christmas Carol" and Handel's "Messiah,"
more evidence that Christianity is fading in Western Europe: Nearly 99
percent of Christmas cards sold in Great Britain contain no religious
message or imagery.
Article Tools
"Traditional pictures such as angels blowing trumpets over a stable,
Jesus in his manger, the shepherds and three wise men following the
star to Bethlehem are dying out," the Daily Mail reports. A review of
some 5,500 Christmas cards turns up fewer than 70 that make any
reference to the birth of Jesus. "Hundreds . . . avoided any image
linked to Christmas at all" -- even those with no spiritual
significance, such as Christmas trees or Santa Claus.
Presumably the greeting-card industry is only supplying what the market
demands; if Christian belief and practice weren't vanishing from the
British scene, Christian-themed cards wouldn't be, either. But some
Britons, not all of them devout, are resisting the tide. Writing in the
Telegraph, editor-at-large Jeff Randall -- who describes himself as
"somewhere between an agnostic and a mild believer" -- announces that
any Christmas card he receives that doesn't at least mention the word
"Christmas" goes straight into the trash. "Jettisoning Christmas-less
cards is my tiny, almost certainly futile, gesture against the dark
forces of political correctness," he writes. "It's a swipe at those who
would prefer to abolish Christmas altogether, in case it offends
'minorities.' Someone should tell them that, with only one in 15
Britons going to church on Sundays, Christians are a minority."
Meanwhile, the employment law firm Peninsula says that 75 percent of
British companies have banned Christmas decorations for fear of being
sued by someone who finds the holiday offensive. And it isn't only in
December that this anti-Christian animus rears its head. British
Airways triggered a furor when it ordered an employee to hide the tiny
cross she wears around her neck. At the BBC, senior executives agreed
that they would not air a program showing a Koran being thrown in the
garbage -- but that the trashing of a Bible would be acceptable.
"It's extraordinary," remarks Randall. "In an increasingly godless age,
there is a rising tide of hatred against those who adhere to biblical
values." A "tyrannical minority" of intolerant secularists is openly
contemptuous of traditional moral norms. "The teachings and guidance of
old-fashioned Christianity offend them, so they seek to remove all
traces of it from public life."
Message Board YOUR VIEW: Is religion the best route to ethical
behavior?
You don't have to be especially pious to find this atheist zealotry
alarming. Nor do you have to live in Europe. Though religion remains
important in American life, antireligious passion is surging here, too.
Examples abound: In two recent best sellers , Sam Harris heaps scorn on
religious believers, whose faith he derides as "a few products of
ancient ignorance and derangement." A study in the Journal of Religion
and Society claims that belief in God correlates with higher rates of
homicide, sexual promiscuity, and other social ills, and that when
compared with relatively secular democracies, the churchgoing United
States "is almost always the most dysfunctional." Secular absolutists
demand that schools and government venues be cleansed of any hint of
religious expression -- be it a cross on the Los Angeles County seal, a
courthouse display of the Ten Commandments, or the words "under God" in
the Pledge of Allegiance.
What is at stake in all this isn't just angels on Christmas cards. What
society loses when it discards Judeo-Christian faith and belief in God
is something far more difficult to replace: the value system most
likely to promote ethical behavior and sustain a decent society. That
isbecause without God, the difference between good and evil becomes
purely subjective. What makes murder inherently wrong is not that it
feels wrong,but that a transcendent Creator to whom we are answerable
commands: "Thou shalt not murder." What makes kindness to others
inherently right is not that human reason says so, but that God does:
"Love thy neighbor as thyself; I am the Lord."
Obviously this doesn't mean that religious people are always good, or
that religion itself cannot lead to cruelty. Nor does it mean that
atheists cannot be beautiful, ethical human beings. Belief in God alone
does not guarantee goodness. But belief tethered to clear ethical
values -- Judeo-Christian monotheism -- is society's best bet for
restraining our worst moral impulses and encouraging our best ones.
The atheist alternative is a world in which right and wrong are
ultimately matters of opinion, and in which we are finally accountable
to no one but ourselves. That is anything but a tiding of comfort and
joy.
Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby@globe.com.
Evidently, the author and presumably the OP doesn't understand Europe
very well. The reason we (speaking as an European) do not want
Christianity as part of public life is the horrible, tragic history we
have of mixing religion and politics. (And this would also be why doing
it here isn't any better.) Europeans used to have virtually no freedom
of speech in matters contrary to church doctrine, and we have the
modern, democratic societies we have today because we banished religion
from politics. This isn't something that a group of (Jewish perhaps?)
conspirators have engineered, it's a society-wide consensus, at least
in northern Europe. We - as societies - have reached a collective
conclusion. We do not trust religions to be of good off the bat. We
have seen how religion can serve the purposes of those in power. We
don't think religious leaders can be trusted to take care of all of
their citizens - they will be partial to their co-religionists and the
job for politicians is not that of a priest. We have politicians to run
our democracies, our schools, our roads, all that. If you want to be
religious, go find a priest or a rabbi or mullah or monk or whatever,
but what does religion have to do with running a state? What does
religion have to say on the challenges for each individual country in
adapting to globalization? Our public life is for everyone. If you let
religious people bring their religion to public spaces, they'll never
stop fighting with each other. We will never be a cohesive, united
society - or world - if the religious people get to keep squabbling
over things that have no bearing on serious practical matters, like
feeding everyone or stopping AIDS or curing cancer. They can squabble
among themselves somewhere else.
What we *do* trust is universal human rights. It's starting to seem to
me that people who grow up in very religious countries like the US can
often have trouble imagining life without the presence of the religion.
The claim that in atheist countries, right and wrong is a matter of
opinion is probably an example of that. I've never set foot in a
country where people have no conception of right and wrong. Europeans
have rejected Christian dogma and the belief in God (by and large,
except maybe for those crazy religious Italians on Sundays) , while
retaining a lot of its spirit, in some ways - like forgiveness, value
of human life and dignity, and so on and so forth. Out of these ideas,
universal human rights were born. To me, universal human rights are the
ultimate moral authority to which everyone - religious or not - must
answer. I also feel comfortable judging people if they do not respect
human rights, and I know I'm not alone. There is an uproar every time
the US executes someone. One of the most often heard examples people
give for why the US commits immoral acts in Europe is the death
penalty. This torture thing is just incredible. If you've lived in
Europe for even a few months and paid at least a minimum of attention,
you'd know.
On the off chance that someone might actually want to know more, try
Jeremy Rifkin's "The European Dream." It's got a great
cultural-political comparison of how the US sees the world and how
differently the EU sees the world, and what consequences that has.
Also, I've seen far more Christmas decorations in Europe than I do
here. That's because virtually no one remembers the "CHRIST in
Christmas". As a result, people generally celebrate together instead of
fighting. Tidings of joy are easier to have when people come together
in peace. Just a thought.
.
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
23 Dec 2006 02:47:51 PM |
|
|
On 13 Dec 2006 08:15:21 -0800, wrote in alt.atheism
JPG wrote:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
FROM THE land that produced "A Christmas Carol" and Handel's "Messiah,"
more evidence that Christianity is fading in Western Europe: Nearly 99
percent of Christmas cards sold in Great Britain contain no religious
message or imagery.
[]
Obviously this doesn't mean that religious people are always good, or
that religion itself cannot lead to cruelty. Nor does it mean that
atheists cannot be beautiful, ethical human beings. Belief in God alone
does not guarantee goodness. But belief tethered to clear ethical
values -- Judeo-Christian monotheism -- is society's best bet for
restraining our worst moral impulses and encouraging our best ones.
The atheist alternative is a world in which right and wrong are
ultimately matters of opinion, and in which we are finally accountable
to no one but ourselves. That is anything but a tiding of comfort and
joy.
Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby@globe.com.
Evidently, the author and presumably the OP doesn't understand Europe
very well. The reason we (speaking as an European) do not want
Christianity as part of public life is the horrible, tragic history we
have of mixing religion and politics. (And this would also be why doing
it here isn't any better.) Europeans used to have virtually no freedom
of speech in matters contrary to church doctrine, and we have the
modern, democratic societies we have today because we banished religion
from politics. This isn't something that a group of (Jewish perhaps?)
conspirators have engineered, it's a society-wide consensus, at least
in northern Europe. We - as societies - have reached a collective
conclusion. We do not trust religions to be of good off the bat. We
have seen how religion can serve the purposes of those in power. We
don't think religious leaders can be trusted to take care of all of
their citizens - they will be partial to their co-religionists and the
job for politicians is not that of a priest. We have politicians to run
our democracies, our schools, our roads, all that. If you want to be
religious, go find a priest or a rabbi or mullah or monk or whatever,
but what does religion have to do with running a state? What does
religion have to say on the challenges for each individual country in
adapting to globalization? Our public life is for everyone. If you let
religious people bring their religion to public spaces, they'll never
stop fighting with each other. We will never be a cohesive, united
society - or world - if the religious people get to keep squabbling
over things that have no bearing on serious practical matters, like
feeding everyone or stopping AIDS or curing cancer. They can squabble
among themselves somewhere else.
What we *do* trust is universal human rights. It's starting to seem to
me that people who grow up in very religious countries like the US can
often have trouble imagining life without the presence of the religion.
The claim that in atheist countries, right and wrong is a matter of
opinion is probably an example of that. I've never set foot in a
country where people have no conception of right and wrong. Europeans
have rejected Christian dogma and the belief in God (by and large,
except maybe for those crazy religious Italians on Sundays) , while
retaining a lot of its spirit, in some ways - like forgiveness, value
of human life and dignity, and so on and so forth. Out of these ideas,
universal human rights were born. To me, universal human rights are the
ultimate moral authority to which everyone - religious or not - must
answer. I also feel comfortable judging people if they do not respect
human rights, and I know I'm not alone. There is an uproar every time
the US executes someone. One of the most often heard examples people
give for why the US commits immoral acts in Europe is the death
penalty. This torture thing is just incredible. If you've lived in
Europe for even a few months and paid at least a minimum of attention,
you'd know.
On the off chance that someone might actually want to know more, try
Jeremy Rifkin's "The European Dream." It's got a great
cultural-political comparison of how the US sees the world and how
differently the EU sees the world, and what consequences that has.
Also, I've seen far more Christmas decorations in Europe than I do
here. That's because virtually no one remembers the "CHRIST in
Christmas". As a result, people generally celebrate together instead of
fighting. Tidings of joy are easier to have when people come together
in peace. Just a thought.
Very good ones. May I suggest emailing your comment to this fool?
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: AQOTM Nomination Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
23 Dec 2006 02:46:55 PM |
|
|
On 13 Dec 2006 08:15:21 -0800, wrote in alt.atheism
JPG wrote:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
FROM THE land that produced "A Christmas Carol" and Handel's "Messiah,"
more evidence that Christianity is fading in Western Europe: Nearly 99
percent of Christmas cards sold in Great Britain contain no religious
message or imagery.
[]
Obviously this doesn't mean that religious people are always good, or
that religion itself cannot lead to cruelty. Nor does it mean that
atheists cannot be beautiful, ethical human beings. Belief in God alone
does not guarantee goodness. But belief tethered to clear ethical
values -- Judeo-Christian monotheism -- is society's best bet for
restraining our worst moral impulses and encouraging our best ones.
The atheist alternative is a world in which right and wrong are
ultimately matters of opinion, and in which we are finally accountable
to no one but ourselves. That is anything but a tiding of comfort and
joy.
Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby@globe.com.
Evidently, the author and presumably the OP doesn't understand Europe
very well. The reason we (speaking as an European) do not want
Christianity as part of public life is the horrible, tragic history we
have of mixing religion and politics. (And this would also be why doing
it here isn't any better.) Europeans used to have virtually no freedom
of speech in matters contrary to church doctrine, and we have the
modern, democratic societies we have today because we banished religion
from politics. This isn't something that a group of (Jewish perhaps?)
conspirators have engineered, it's a society-wide consensus, at least
in northern Europe. We - as societies - have reached a collective
conclusion. We do not trust religions to be of good off the bat. We
have seen how religion can serve the purposes of those in power. We
don't think religious leaders can be trusted to take care of all of
their citizens - they will be partial to their co-religionists and the
job for politicians is not that of a priest. We have politicians to run
our democracies, our schools, our roads, all that. If you want to be
religious, go find a priest or a rabbi or mullah or monk or whatever,
but what does religion have to do with running a state? What does
religion have to say on the challenges for each individual country in
adapting to globalization? Our public life is for everyone. If you let
religious people bring their religion to public spaces, they'll never
stop fighting with each other. We will never be a cohesive, united
society - or world - if the religious people get to keep squabbling
over things that have no bearing on serious practical matters, like
feeding everyone or stopping AIDS or curing cancer. They can squabble
among themselves somewhere else.
Seconds?
I loathed snipping the rest as it, too, was excellant.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Icarus" |
|
| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 12:27:15 PM |
|
|
JPG wrote:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
<snip>...
...without God, the difference between good and evil
becomes purely subjective. What makes murder inherently wrong is not
that it feels wrong,but that a transcendent Creator to whom we are
answerable commands: "Thou shalt not murder."
Without God, the difference between good and evil is a subjective judgment
based on conscience, which is true morality. In religion there is no good
and evil, there is only a choice of following or not following orders, which
is no kind of morality at all. We will only have a truly moral society when
we get rid of religion altogether.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Lucifer" |
|
| Title: AQOTM? Was - Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 03:30:38 PM |
|
|
Icarus wrote:
JPG wrote:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
<snip>...
...without God, the difference between good and evil
becomes purely subjective. What makes murder inherently wrong is not
that it feels wrong,but that a transcendent Creator to whom we are
answerable commands: "Thou shalt not murder."
Begin Nominated Portion
Without God, the difference between good and evil is a subjective judgment
based on conscience, which is true morality. In religion there is no good
and evil, there is only a choice of following or not following orders, which
is no kind of morality at all. We will only have a truly moral society when
we get rid of religion altogether.
Seconds anyone?
.
|
|
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| User: "John Blake" |
|
| Title: Re: AQOTM? Was - Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 03:33:59 PM |
|
|
On 13 Dec 2006 13:30:38 -0800, "Lucifer" <wyrdology@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Icarus wrote:
JPG wrote:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
<snip>...
...without God, the difference between good and evil
becomes purely subjective. What makes murder inherently wrong is not
that it feels wrong,but that a transcendent Creator to whom we are
answerable commands: "Thou shalt not murder."
Begin Nominated Portion
Without God, the difference between good and evil is a subjective judgment
based on conscience, which is true morality. In religion there is no good
and evil, there is only a choice of following or not following orders, which
is no kind of morality at all. We will only have a truly moral society when
we get rid of religion altogether.
Seconds anyone?
Seconded
JB
.
|
|
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| User: "bob young" |
|
| Title: Re: AQOTM? Was - Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 10:24:02 PM |
|
|
John Blake wrote:
On 13 Dec 2006 13:30:38 -0800, "Lucifer" <wyrdology@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Icarus wrote:
JPG wrote:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
<snip>...
...without God, the difference between good and evil
becomes purely subjective. What makes murder inherently wrong is not
that it feels wrong,but that a transcendent Creator to whom we are
answerable commands: "Thou shalt not murder."
Begin Nominated Portion
Without God, the difference between good and evil is a subjective judgment
based on conscience, which is true morality. In religion there is no good
and evil, there is only a choice of following or not following orders, which
is no kind of morality at all. We will only have a truly moral society when
we get rid of religion altogether.
Seconds anyone?
Seconded
I'll second that
JB
.
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|
| User: "John Blake" |
|
| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 02:36:56 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:27:15 -0000, "Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com>
wrote:
JPG wrote:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
<snip>...
...without God, the difference between good and evil
becomes purely subjective. What makes murder inherently wrong is not
that it feels wrong,but that a transcendent Creator to whom we are
answerable commands: "Thou shalt not murder."
Without God, the difference between good and evil is a subjective judgment
based on conscience, which is true morality. In religion there is no good
and evil, there is only a choice of following or not following orders, which
is no kind of morality at all. We will only have a truly moral society when
we get rid of religion altogether.
Very well put. Mind if I quote that or even use it in my sig
occasionally?
JB
.
|
|
|
| User: "pg" |
|
| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
14 Dec 2006 12:19:15 PM |
|
|
"John Blake" <johnremovethisblake@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:s0p0o258a3fidb12d29feje2gsd7o642d3@4ax.com...
| On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:27:15 -0000, "Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com>
| wrote:
|
| >JPG wrote:
| >
| >>
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
| >>
| >> Atheists' bleak alternative
| >>
| >> By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
| ><snip>...
| >> ...without God, the difference between good and evil
| >> becomes purely subjective. What makes murder inherently wrong is
not
| >> that it feels wrong,but that a transcendent Creator to whom we are
| >> answerable commands: "Thou shalt not murder."
| >
| >Without God, the difference between good and evil is a subjective
judgment
| >based on conscience, which is true morality. In religion there is no
good
| >and evil, there is only a choice of following or not following
orders, which
| >is no kind of morality at all. We will only have a truly moral
society when
| >we get rid of religion altogether.
| >
| Very well put. Mind if I quote that or even use it in my sig
| occasionally?
http://tinyurl.com/ygogvw :-)
.
|
|
|
| User: "John Blake" |
|
| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
14 Dec 2006 02:26:54 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 19:19:15 +0100, "pg" <ngs@alpesprovence.net>
wrote:
"John Blake" <johnremovethisblake@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:s0p0o258a3fidb12d29feje2gsd7o642d3@4ax.com...
| On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:27:15 -0000, "Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com>
| wrote:
|
| >JPG wrote:
| >
| >>
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
| >>
| >> Atheists' bleak alternative
| >>
| >> By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
| ><snip>...
| >> ...without God, the difference between good and evil
| >> becomes purely subjective. What makes murder inherently wrong is
not
| >> that it feels wrong,but that a transcendent Creator to whom we are
| >> answerable commands: "Thou shalt not murder."
| >
| >Without God, the difference between good and evil is a subjective
judgment
| >based on conscience, which is true morality. In religion there is no
good
| >and evil, there is only a choice of following or not following
orders, which
| >is no kind of morality at all. We will only have a truly moral
society when
| >we get rid of religion altogether.
| >
| Very well put. Mind if I quote that or even use it in my sig
| occasionally?
http://tinyurl.com/ygogvw :-)
That would be funny if it wasn't so true :-7
JB
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Icarus" |
|
| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 06:17:03 PM |
|
|
John Blake wrote:
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:27:15 -0000, "Icarus"
<icarus_uk@email.com> wrote:
JPG wrote:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
<snip>...
...without God, the difference between good and evil
becomes purely subjective. What makes murder inherently
wrong is not that it feels wrong,but that a transcendent
Creator to whom we are answerable commands: "Thou shalt not
murder."
Without God, the difference between good and evil is a
subjective judgment based on conscience, which is true
morality. In religion there is no good and evil, there is
only a choice of following or not following orders, which is
no kind of morality at all. We will only have a truly moral
society when we get rid of religion altogether.
Very well put. Mind if I quote that or even use it in my sig
occasionally?
If you think it's worth repeating, please feel free.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "bob young" |
|
| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 10:21:02 PM |
|
|
John Blake wrote:
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:27:15 -0000, "Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com>
wrote:
JPG wrote:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
<snip>...
...without God, the difference between good and evil
becomes purely subjective. What makes murder inherently wrong is not
that it feels wrong,but that a transcendent Creator to whom we are
answerable commands: "Thou shalt not murder."
Without God, the difference between good and evil is a subjective judgment
based on conscience, which is true morality. In religion there is no good
and evil, there is only a choice of following or not following orders, which
is no kind of morality at all. We will only have a truly moral society when
we get rid of religion altogether.
Very well put. Mind if I quote that or even use it in my sig
occasionally?
No you can't have it, I got it first [Smile]
Bob
JB
.
|
|
|
| User: "John Blake" |
|
| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
14 Dec 2006 02:59:28 AM |
|
|
On 13 Dec 2006 22:21:02 -0600, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
wrote:
John Blake wrote:
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:27:15 -0000, "Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com>
wrote:
JPG wrote:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
<snip>...
...without God, the difference between good and evil
becomes purely subjective. What makes murder inherently wrong is not
that it feels wrong,but that a transcendent Creator to whom we are
answerable commands: "Thou shalt not murder."
Without God, the difference between good and evil is a subjective judgment
based on conscience, which is true morality. In religion there is no good
and evil, there is only a choice of following or not following orders, which
is no kind of morality at all. We will only have a truly moral society when
we get rid of religion altogether.
Very well put. Mind if I quote that or even use it in my sig
occasionally?
No you can't have it, I got it first [Smile]
Curses ....... mutter, mutter :-)
JB
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "J Forbes" |
|
| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 08:26:39 AM |
|
|
JPG wrote:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
What is at stake in all this isn't just angels on Christmas cards. What
society loses when it discards Judeo-Christian faith and belief in God
is something far more difficult to replace: the value system most
likely to promote ethical behavior and sustain a decent society. That
isbecause without God, the difference between good and evil becomes
purely subjective. What makes murder inherently wrong is not that it
feels wrong,but that a transcendent Creator to whom we are answerable
commands: "Thou shalt not murder." What makes kindness to others
inherently right is not that human reason says so, but that God does:
"Love thy neighbor as thyself; I am the Lord."
yeah, that must be why the murder rate in England is so much higher
than it is in the US...right, Jeff?
idiot
Jim
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 09:43:11 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 06:26:39 -0800, J Forbes wrote:
JPG wrote:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
What is at stake in all this isn't just angels on Christmas cards. What
society loses when it discards Judeo-Christian faith and belief in God
is something far more difficult to replace: the value system most
likely to promote ethical behavior and sustain a decent society. That
isbecause without God, the difference between good and evil becomes
purely subjective. What makes murder inherently wrong is not that it
feels wrong,but that a transcendent Creator to whom we are answerable
commands: "Thou shalt not murder." What makes kindness to others
inherently right is not that human reason says so, but that God does:
"Love thy neighbor as thyself; I am the Lord."
yeah, that must be why the murder rate in England is so much higher
than it is in the US...right, Jeff?
And why the US leads the industrialized world in violent crime and
incarceration rates...
(Wait a minnut...)
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
Christianity is to religions as Windows is to operating systems.
-Scott (#1045)
.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Article: Atheists' bleak alternative |
13 Dec 2006 10:15:02 PM |
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JPG wrote:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/13/atheists_bleak_alternative/
Atheists' bleak alternative
Out of 1.3 billion in China, around 1.1 billion have no religious leanings.
Are these people all atheists to you?
If so your claim is sick and nasty - to put it mildly
Of course, I do not expect a reply, you get smug satisfaction, I believe, in posting superstitious
nonsense in the vain hope you will receive some kind of gratification or even life after death. And it
doesn't come more banal than that.
I have news for you, evolution gave all living things two ways of obtaining gratification, one is eating,
and the other is procreation.
By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | December 13, 2006
FROM THE land that produced "A Christmas Carol" and Handel's "Messiah,"
more evidence that Christianity is fading in Western Europe: Nearly 99
percent of Christmas cards sold in Great Britain contain no religious
message or imagery.
Article Tools
"Traditional pictures such as angels blowing trumpets over a stable,
Jesus in his manger, the shepherds and three wise men following the
star to Bethlehem are dying out," the Daily Mail reports. A review of
some 5,500 Christmas cards turns up fewer than 70 that make any
reference to the birth of Jesus. "Hundreds . . . avoided any image
linked to Christmas at all" -- even those with no spiritual
significance, such as Christmas trees or Santa Claus.
Presumably the greeting-card industry is only supplying what the market
demands; if Christian belief and practice weren't vanishing from the
British scene, Christian-themed cards wouldn't be, either. But some
Britons, not all of them devout, are resisting the tide. Writing in the
Telegraph, editor-at-large Jeff Randall -- who describes himself as
"somewhere between an agnostic and a mild believer" -- announces that
any Christmas card he receives that doesn't at least mention the word
"Christmas" goes straight into the trash. "Jettisoning Christmas-less
cards is my tiny, almost certainly futile, gesture against the dark
forces of political correctness," he writes. "It's a swipe at those who
would prefer to abolish Christmas altogether, in case it offends
'minorities.' Someone should tell them that, with only one in 15
Britons going to church on Sundays, Christians are a minority."
Meanwhile, the employment law firm Peninsula says that 75 percent of
British companies have banned Christmas decorations for fear of being
sued by someone who finds the holiday offensive. And it isn't only in
December that this anti-Christian animus rears its head. British
Airways triggered a furor when it ordered an employee to hide the tiny
cross she wears around her neck. At the BBC, senior executives agreed
that they would not air a program showing a Koran being thrown in the
garbage -- but that the trashing of a Bible would be acceptable.
"It's extraordinary," remarks Randall. "In an increasingly godless age,
there is a rising tide of hatred against those who adhere to biblical
values." A "tyrannical minority" of intolerant secularists is openly
contemptuous of traditional moral norms. "The teachings and guidance of
old-fashioned Christianity offend them, so they seek to remove all
traces of it from public life."
Message Board YOUR VIEW: Is religion the best route to ethical
behavior?
You don't have to be especially pious to find this atheist zealotry
alarming. Nor do you have to live in Europe. Though religion remains
important in American life, antireligious passion is surging here, too.
Examples abound: In two recent best sellers , Sam Harris heaps scorn on
religious believers, whose faith he derides as "a few products of
ancient ignorance and derangement." A study in the Journal of Religion
and Society claims that belief in God correlates with higher rates of
homicide, sexual promiscuity, and other social ills, and that when
compared with relatively secular democracies, the churchgoing United
States "is almost always the most dysfunctional." Secular absolutists
demand that schools and government venues be cleansed of any hint of
religious expression -- be it a cross on the Los Angeles County seal, a
courthouse display of the Ten Commandments, or the words "under God" in
the Pledge of Allegiance.
What is at stake in all this isn't just angels on Christmas cards. What
society loses when it discards Judeo-Christian faith and belief in God
is something far more difficult to replace: the value system most
likely to promote ethical behavior and sustain a decent society. That
isbecause without God, the difference between good and evil becomes
purely subjective. What makes murder inherently wrong is not that it
feels wrong,but that a transcendent Creator to whom we are answerable
commands: "Thou shalt not murder." What makes kindness to others
inherently right is not that human reason says so, but that God does:
"Love thy neighbor as thyself; I am the Lord."
Obviously this doesn't mean that religious people are always good, or
that religion itself cannot lead to cruelty. Nor does it mean that
atheists cannot be beautiful, ethical human beings. Belief in God alone
does not guarantee goodness. But belief tethered to clear ethical
values -- Judeo-Christian monotheism -- is society's best bet for
restraining our worst moral impulses and encouraging our best ones.
The atheist alternative is a world in which right and wrong are
ultimately matters of opinion, and in which we are finally accountable
to no one but ourselves. That is anything but a tiding of comfort and
joy.
Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby@globe.com.
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