"Tom" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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"anonymous person" <at@dot.com> wrote in message
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"mikelist" <mikelist@tds.net> wrote in message
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anonymous person wrote:

I think what he was trying to get at is why, if you think we and all
of this is just some random cosmic happenstance, do you consider the
tsunami to be a disaster?

A more to-the-point question might be "If God controls the universe,
why should we consider one of his acts a disaster?", since that would
be god's will, to which we are exhorted to submit. From a secular
standpoint, it's easy to see why it's a disaster, since the possibility
that a creator wanted it to occur is irrelevent from that POV.

while that is certainly a question we can discuss, it avoids the first
question. If we are a cosmic happenstance, then why is the tsunami a
disaster? Or 9/11 for that matter? Both are just events. Not good,
not bad. Just are. Any good / bad label put on them are simply made up
artificial terms with no basis in reality - just opinions.

As I said, not worthy of a comment.

that, was a comment. If it is not worthy of a comment, in your mind, then
ignore it. Saying it is not worthy of a comment and taking the time to
write and post that then apparently makes it worthy of that comment.

"Tom" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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"anonymous person" <at@dot.com> wrote in message
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"mikelist" <mikelist@tds.net> wrote in message
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anonymous person wrote:

I think what he was trying to get at is why, if you think we and all of
this is just some random cosmic happenstance, do you consider the
tsunami to be a disaster?

A more to-the-point question might be "If God controls the universe, why
should we consider one of his acts a disaster?", since that would be
god's will, to which we are exhorted to submit. From a secular
standpoint, it's easy to see why it's a disaster, since the possibility
that a creator wanted it to occur is irrelevent from that POV.

while that is certainly a question we can discuss, it avoids the first
question. If we are a cosmic happenstance, then why is the tsunami a
disaster? Or 9/11 for that matter? Both are just events. Not good, not
bad. Just are. Any good / bad label put on them are simply made up
artificial terms with no basis in reality - just opinions.

As I said, not worthy of a comment.

that, was a comment. If it is not worthy of a comment, in your mind, then
ignore it. Saying it is not worthy of a comment and taking the time to
write and post that then apparently makes it worthy of that comment.

"Andrew Lias" <anrwlias@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1104509407.751624.98840@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

anonymous person wrote:

"Andrew Lias" <anrwlias@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1104466814.569101.93160@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Because it resulted in widespread death and misery and simple human
empathy leads us to feel sympathy and sorrow for those who were

killed

as well as for those who have lost loved ones in the event.

Andrew Lias
http://andrewlias.blogspot.com

so what? we're all going to die someday and cease to exist, just a

bunch of

decaying minerals, food for the worms and other critters who will

also die

someday.

You are engaging in something that I call the Fallacy of Mediocrity
(see
http://andrewlias.blogspot.com/2004/05/fallacy-of-mediocrity.html).
Yes, I will die and decay into all that. However, that doesn't mean
that my current existence must be evaluated by the eventual end
products of that existence. I value life on its own merits and find it
something worth cherishing and preserving.

Sun will expand and suck up the earth one day, who cares.

Again, what does that have to do with how much value we place on our
existence?

We are
a cosmic accident, remember? All this importance is just some

illusion we

created for ourselves.

Believing that we are not the product of some intelligent agency does
not naturally lead to the conclusion that our concern for ourselves and
others is illusory. You've lept to a conclusion without offer any
justification for it other than sheer assertion. At best, perhaps
*you* need to feel that you are the product of a special creation in
order to feel that you can have any value. I don't share that premise.

We are no different than the ant or the robin or the
snake or the roach.

Ah, I was wondering when we'd get to this. This is something that I
call the Fallacy of Mediocrity, which is to assume that because some
members are part of a common set then all members must share *all*
traits in common. I have a detailing of the fallacy here:
http://andrewlias.blogspot.com/2004/05/fallacy-of-mediocrity.html

In short, I may share the characteristic of being an animal and being
part of the natural world, but that doesn't mean that I am "no
different" from ants, robins, etc. Among other things, evolution has
bestowed on us a very advanced sense of self-awareness and a tendency
to empathize with one another. Whether or not the universe, as a
whole, cares about human affairs, I am a human and I do, in fact, care
about myself and other humans. I don't need the stamp of divine
creation in order to do so, either.

No one sheds a tear when an ant hill gets wiped out, no
one is shedding a tear over the fish that were killed in the tsunami.

Why

do you cry for the people if we are nothing more than a cosmic

accident?

First and foremost, because I am a human and I am concerned with the
affairs of humanity. Beyond that, because humans have a sense of
self-awareness and introspection that the majority of other creatures
appear to lack. A fish can neither contemplate not appreciate the
prospect of death. We can. We can also remember those that do die and
miss them. The legitimacy of the pain we feel is not dependent upon
the existence of some god (and you've yet to explain why a god would
make it more legitimate). At the bottom of it all, it is in our nature
to empathize with other human beings.

What makes them more important other than your own delusions?

You seem to suppose that something must be important on a cosmic level
in order to be important on a personal level. I believe that you are
indulging in an unjustified conflation. I don't care if the universe,
as a whole, is concerned about this. Since I am a human, my concerns
are human concerns. It is an internal justification that it relative
and relevant to us.

By your logic, one shouldn't care whether or not one smashes ones
finger with a hammer since that pain doesn't reflect any sort of
universal reality. After all, it's "just" the firing of neurons and
it's "just" a cosmic accident that we have hands, hammers and nervous
systems in the first place. Never the less, whether or not a god
exists, I think that we can all agree that smashing our fingers with
hammers really does hurt and that it's something we all have a very
strong emotional aversion to. No matter how much you might try to
define the pain as a "delusion", it's sufficiently real to have a very
profound effect on us.

The pain felt by a hammer blow is no less real than the empathetic pain
that we feel in these circumstances. The universe as a whole may not
feel it anymore than the rocks and the trees feel your crushed finger,
but we feel it, all the same, and that is sufficient.
--
Andrew Lias
http://andrewlias.blogspot.com

great speech, but, so what? It just reinforces the fact that people have
no problem stressing all of this evolution, we come from pond scum and
return to pond scum till it all burns up but what happens today IS
important just because, well, because, um, because we are self aware! And
your hammer example is nothing more than simple stimulus response,
pleasure pain mechanism given self awareness to make it look different
from your cat or dog stepping on a thorn.

"Andrew Lias" <anrwlias@gmail.com> wrote in message

By your logic, one shouldn't care whether or not one smashes ones
finger with a hammer since that pain doesn't reflect any sort of
universal reality. After all, it's "just" the firing of neurons

it's "just" a cosmic accident that we have hands, hammers and

systems in the first place. Never the less, whether or not a god
exists, I think that we can all agree that smashing our fingers

hammers really does hurt and that it's something we all have a very
strong emotional aversion to. No matter how much you might try to
define the pain as a "delusion", it's sufficiently real to have a

profound effect on us.

The pain felt by a hammer blow is no less real than the empathetic

that we feel in these circumstances. The universe as a whole may

feel it anymore than the rocks and the trees feel your crushed

but we feel it, all the same, and that is sufficient.
--
Andrew Lias
http://andrewlias.blogspot.com

great speech, but, so what?

It just reinforces the fact that people have no
problem stressing all of this evolution, we come from pond scum and

to pond scum till it all burns up but what happens today IS important

because, well, because, um, because we are self aware!

And your hammer
example is nothing more than simple stimulus response, pleasure pain
mechanism given self awareness to make it look different from your

dog stepping on a thorn.