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| User: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?~~__}=3C=28=28=28=28=F4=3E?=" |
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| Title: Re: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action? |
29 Dec 2004 11:13:38 AM |
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"William Kimbler" <w.kimbler@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Ve-dnZSxB96uKk_cRVn-3w@comcast.com...
Try this on for size maybe; just maybe it was just nature and all the
right factors happening at just the right time to cause such a disaster.
In short terms it just happened because everything just fell into place at
the right time.
I guess what I am saying is don't read more into it than what's there.
==========================
Jabriol uses these disasters to TROLL the NGs and get a reaction from
someone, anyone. Notice he shows no sympathy for the suffering people of
this disaster. Rather he uses them to further his cause.....
--
Fi....
Well, then, have I become YOUR enemy because I tell YOU the truth (about
Jabriol & the Watchtower)?
Galatians 4:16 NWT
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ }<(((({{o>
All trees (like the WTS) can be judged by the fruit (Jabriols) they produce.
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| User: "Tukla Ratte" |
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| Title: Re: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action? |
03 Jan 2005 12:10:51 PM |
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~~ } wrote:
< snip >
Jabriol uses these disasters to TROLL the NGs and get a reaction from
someone, anyone. Notice he shows no sympathy for the suffering people
of this disaster. Rather he uses them to further his cause.....
Yeah, he's one sick guy. An utter sociopath.
--
Tukla, Eater of Theists, Squeaker of Chew Toys
Official Mascot of Alt.Atheism, aa 1347
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| User: "" |
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| Title: tobs: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action?, geological effects in minutes |
03 Jan 2005 09:53:43 AM |
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William Kimbler wrote:
Try this on for size maybe; just maybe it was just nature and all the
right
factors happening at just the right time to cause such a disaster. In
short
terms it just happened because everything just fell into place at the
right
time.
I guess what I am saying is don't read more into it than what's
there.
ergo the asian disaster was an evolutionary event.
Anybody notice the geological effect that occured to the planet in a
few minutes. US based scientists from the Geological Survey (USGS) have
said "the quake that set off the wall of water had moved tectonic
plates beneath the Indian Ocean by up to 30 meters (100 feet), causing
the Earth to wobble on its axis and permanently shortening the day by a
fraction of a second. " which is a quote from Reuters. Science.orf.at
in a Google Translation also says "The heavy earthquake before the
coast of Sumatra has substantial geological effects. Thus the tectonic
plates under the Indian ocean did not only shift experts according to
around approximately 30 meters. Also the earth rotation could
accelerate itself around three microseconds per day". This could
adversley affect the Earth, satellites and GPS over a long period of
time.
Now I wonder what Geoligical effect would a global flood have on the
planet, in short time period.
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| User: "~~~~*" |
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| Title: Re: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action?, geological effects in minutes |
03 Jan 2005 05:56:48 PM |
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<jabriol@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:1104767623.253715.262770@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
ergo the asian disaster was an evolutionary event.
# Sure it was. What else would it be? Watch evolution leap ahead in that
area... :-D
Anybody notice the geological effect that occured to the planet in a
few minutes. US based scientists from the Geological Survey (USGS) have
said "the quake that set off the wall of water had moved tectonic
plates beneath the Indian Ocean by up to 30 meters (100 feet), causing
the Earth to wobble on its axis and permanently shortening the day by a
fraction of a second. " which is a quote from Reuters.
# WOW!!! A whole fraction of a second. Life on earth will never be the
same.
Science.orf.at
in a Google Translation also says "The heavy earthquake before the
coast of Sumatra has substantial geological effects. Thus the tectonic
plates under the Indian ocean did not only shift experts according to
around approximately 30 meters. Also the earth rotation could
accelerate itself around three microseconds per day". This could
adversley affect the Earth, satellites and GPS over a long period of
time.
# Oh the HORROR, the HUMANITY....
Now I wonder what Geoligical effect would a global flood have on the
planet, in short time period.
# Global floods of biblical proportions are not possible (5 miles of water
covering the entire earth).
--
Mel.....
Well, then, have I become YOUR enemy because
I tell YOU the truth (about Jabriol and the Watchtower Society)?
Galatians 4:16 NWT
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ }<(((({{o>
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| User: "BillC" |
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| Title: Re: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action?, geological effects in minutes |
03 Jan 2005 02:57:02 PM |
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<jabriol@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:1104767623.253715.262770@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
William Kimbler wrote:
Try this on for size maybe; just maybe it was just nature and all the
right
The thing to take away from this EQ and tsunami is how geologically normal,
routine events can have horrendous side effects on mankind. Just because the
event had so much impact on people, doesn't mean anything scientifically or
supernaturally extraordinary went into its creation.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: tobs: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action?, geological effects in minutes |
03 Jan 2005 11:05:56 AM |
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On 3 Jan 2005 07:53:43 -0800, said in alt.atheism:
William Kimbler wrote:
Try this on for size maybe; just maybe it was just nature and all the right
factors happening at just the right time to cause such a disaster. In short
terms it just happened because everything just fell into place at the right
time.
I guess what I am saying is don't read more into it than what's there.
ergo the asian disaster was an evolutionary event.
Since tectonic plates aren't organic, no.
Now I wonder what Geoligical effect would a global flood have on the
planet, in short time period.
Probably none since, in order to have that much water on the planet,
it would have had to be there for eons.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: tobs: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action?, geological effects in minutes |
03 Jan 2005 02:18:52 PM |
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Al Klein wrote:
On 3 Jan 2005 07:53:43 -0800, said in
alt.atheism:
William Kimbler wrote:
Try this on for size maybe; just maybe it was just nature and all
the right
factors happening at just the right time to cause such a disaster.
In short
terms it just happened because everything just fell into place at
the right
time.
I guess what I am saying is don't read more into it than what's
there.
ergo the asian disaster was an evolutionary event.
Since tectonic plates aren't organic, no.
Evolition applies also to non living things...
Now I wonder what Geoligical effect would a global flood have on the
planet, in short time period.
Probably none since, in order to have that much water on the planet,
it would have had to be there for eons.
In what form.. liquid, solid, or gas?
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| User: "~~~~*" |
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| Title: Re: tobs: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action?, geological effects in minutes |
03 Jan 2005 05:59:07 PM |
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<> wrote in message
news:1104783532.882126.23100@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Al Klein wrote:
On 3 Jan 2005 07:53:43 -0800, said in
alt.atheism:
William Kimbler wrote:
Try this on for size maybe; just maybe it was just nature and all
the right
factors happening at just the right time to cause such a disaster.
In short
terms it just happened because everything just fell into place at
the right
time.
I guess what I am saying is don't read more into it than what's
there.
ergo the asian disaster was an evolutionary event.
Since tectonic plates aren't organic, no.
Evolition applies also to non living things...
## Of course. I'm sitting here watching my computer and the desk evolve
before my very eyes. LOL!!!
Now I wonder what Geoligical effect would a global flood have on the
planet, in short time period.
Probably none since, in order to have that much water on the planet,
it would have had to be there for eons.
In what form.. liquid, solid, or gas?
## Hot AIR? :-D
--
Mel....
Jabriol is a classic example of what a cult like the WTS does to the human
mind and personality. Jabriol is truly the fruit of the Watchtower Society
tree. And the WTS tells us to KNOW the TREE by it's fruit. Do not let
these people in when they come knocking..... they're truly wolves in
sheep's clothing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ><>
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: tobs: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action?, geological effects in minutes |
03 Jan 2005 07:07:34 PM |
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~~~~* wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1104783532.882126.23100@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Al Klein wrote:
On 3 Jan 2005 07:53:43 -0800, said in
alt.atheism:
William Kimbler wrote:
Try this on for size maybe; just maybe it was just nature and
all
the right
factors happening at just the right time to cause such a
disaster.
In short
terms it just happened because everything just fell into place
at
the right
time.
I guess what I am saying is don't read more into it than
what's
there.
ergo the asian disaster was an evolutionary event.
Since tectonic plates aren't organic, no.
Evolition applies also to non living things...
## Of course. I'm sitting here watching my computer and the desk
evolve
before my very eyes. LOL!!!
ahhhhhh thank for confirming that evolution can not be observed.
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| User: "Ivy Towerz" |
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| Title: Re: tobs: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action?, geological effects in minutes |
03 Jan 2005 07:59:56 PM |
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<> wrote in message
news:1104800854.501648.58490@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
~~~~* wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1104783532.882126.23100@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Al Klein wrote:
On 3 Jan 2005 07:53:43 -0800, said in
alt.atheism:
William Kimbler wrote:
Try this on for size maybe; just maybe it was just nature and
all
the right
factors happening at just the right time to cause such a
disaster.
In short
terms it just happened because everything just fell into place
at
the right
time.
I guess what I am saying is don't read more into it than
what's
there.
ergo the asian disaster was an evolutionary event.
Since tectonic plates aren't organic, no.
Evolition applies also to non living things...
## Of course. I'm sitting here watching my computer and the desk
evolve
before my very eyes. LOL!!!
ahhhhhh thank for confirming that evolution can not be observed.
=============================
Right. It's not likely my desk will sexually reproduce and so evolve over
time.
Mel..........
"Jabriol wants to be loved; failing this, to be admired; failing this, to be
feared; failing even this, to be hated and despised. Jabriol wants to
arouse
some sort of feeling in people. The soul shrinks from the void and wants
contact at any price." ~ Hjalmar Soderberg ~
==========================================================
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: tobs: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action?, geological effects in minutes |
04 Jan 2005 10:28:40 AM |
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On 3 Jan 2005 17:07:34 -0800, said in alt.atheism:
ahhhhhh thank for confirming that evolution can not be observed.
Not in your case, Jabbers.
--
"Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other. They slander each
other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot come to any sort of
agreement in their teachings. Each sect brands its own, fills the head of its own
with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of those it wins over to its
side."
- Celsus On the True Doctrine, translated by R. Joseph Hoffman, Oxford University Press, 1987
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
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| User: "Lashla Rew" |
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| Title: Re: tobs: Asian natural disaster or REPORT of mental illnes & JWs |
04 Jan 2005 10:21:34 PM |
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<jabriol@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:1104783532.882126.23100@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
In article <1104772475.945149.117690@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
jabriol@fastmail.fm wrote: Rates of MENTAL ILLNESS & PARANOID DELUSIONS
among Jehovah's Witnesses
--------------------------------------------------------------------
*ALL* PUBLISHED STUDIES SHOW JWs HAVE HIGH RATES OF MENTAL ILLNESS
The JW claim to be the "best-oriented, happiest and most contented group
of people on the face of the earth.. They have the least need for
psychiatrists." is significantly refuted by ALL the scientific evidence.
The real reason for the warnings about psychiatrists from the JW Society
is to hide the truth from JWs - ALL known studies on the mental health of
JWs are outlined here.. so I am not merely selecting the worst ones.
The most recent is termed 'Wifely Subjection: Mental Health Issues in
Jehovah's Witness Women', Psychological Manipulation and Society, Cultic
Studies Journal Vol. 14, No. 1, 1997 by Kaynor Weishaupt MS and Michael
Stensland; and concludes that the WTBTS Society exerts a great deal of
control over the everyday life of JWs, and female JWs suffer most from
psychological stresses in the high-control environment. Strong patriarchal
JW attitudes limit women and predominate in their relationships with men
(and having relationships with non-JW men are strongly condemned, and
sexual contact before marriage is totally prohibited). JW women (who left)
were found to have a significant degree of mental health problems, which
lessened when they left. Also, their relationships with men improved after
leaving and became more egalitarian.
Dr Kjell Totland's study 'The Mental Health of Jehovah's' Witnesses.'
appeared in the 1996 Journal of the Norwegian Psychological Association
and concluded that JWs suffered from an abnormally high number of mental
disorders.
Dr Elmer Koppl in 1985 in 'Die Zeugen Jehovas; Eine Psychologische
Analyses' also found that the incidence of mental health problems among
JWs were unusually high.
In the same year, Dr R.Potter (A Social Psychological Study of
Fundamentalist Christianity, Sussex University) concluded that there
exists "a strong positive correlation between Witness membership and
clinical schizophrenia."
And again in the same year, Dr U.Sack (Case Studies of Voluntary Defectors
from Intensive Religious Groups, University of California) reached the
same conclusions via a different (case-study based) route.
Havor Montague, a licensed therapist, in 'The Pessimistic Sect's Influence
on the Mental Health of Its Members: The Case of Jehovah's Witnesses,'
Social Compass, Vol 24, 1977 135-47, monitored admissions to mental
hospitals and clinics in Ohio during 1972-76, and from a JW mentally-ill
sample size of 102 estimated that "the mental illness rate of Jehovah's
Witnesses is approximately 10 to 16 times higher than the rate for the
general, non-Witness population.." While persons who had emotional
problems were attracted to the JWs, the JW involvement was a larger part
of the issue - evident as the majority who had mental problems and who
left, reported they were much happier after leaving.. Montague went on to
conclude "The staff of most large mental hospitals are usually quite
familiar with the JWs. One hospital, a doctor told this writer, is
'clogged with them'. Another mental hospital is even nick-named 'The
Watchtower House' because it has so many Witness patients."
In 1976 Dr Jerry Bergman published 'The Evaluation of an Experimental
Program Designed to Reduce Recidivism Among Second Felony Offenders.'
(Detroit, Mi; Wayne State University), wherein examination of Oakland
County court records from 1965-73 revealed that the mental illness rate,
suicide rate and crime (especially aggressive crimes against people) rate
for JWs are all significantly higher than average.
Dr J.Spencer studied 'The Mental Health of Jehovah's Witnesses' in the
British Journal of Psychiatry's Journal of Mental Science, Vol 126 1975
556-9, by examining records of all 7,546 admissions in 1971-3 to all West
Australian Psychiatric Hospitals. Using the patients' self-reported
religious affiliation, Spencer conservatively computed JWs had psychiatric
admission rates 165%, diagnosed neurosis 195%, schizophrenia 300% and
paranoid schizophrenia 370% of the respective averages for the non-JW
population! The author stated "The study .. suggests that either the
Jehovah's Witnesses sect tends to attract an excess of pre-psychotic
individuals who may then break down, or else being a Jehovah's Witness is
itself a stress which may precipitate a psychosis." But even these
extraordinarily high rates for JWs are very significantly under-reported
for the following reasons:
(a) JWs, may be unwilling to admit to being JWs due to the low
socio-economic ranking of JWs (30th out of 30 per a recent study by Kosmin
& Lachman 1993; this also makes it unlikely people would pretend to be
JWs).
(b) Also the Society strongly criticised psychiatry and equated going to a
psychiatrist to "going down to Egypt". In addition to the headline quote,
see {AWAK Aug 22 1975 25-6, AWAK Apr 22 1975, WT Jul 1 1975 415-6, WT 1975
255-6, WT 1963 319-20} for additional examples.
(c) JWs are usually careful about "bringing reproach on Jehovah's visible
organization" and would therefore hide the fact that they were JWs. See
Heather & Gary Botting: 'The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses'
(University of Toronto Press, 1984). Also, theocratic lying to protect the
Society is commendable to JWs, as is seen in other quotes.
(d) JWs aware of their poor mental state are typically ashamed as they are
taught that good JWs are happy ("Happy is everyone fearing Jehovah..
walking in His ways .. happy you will be and it will be well with you."
Psalm 128:1-2) and so cannot become mentally ill {WT Apr 1 1993 28-30, WT
1970 358, WT 1968 515-6, WT 1960 95} unless they have displeased God, and
will thus hide their problems from even a trusted therapist. Donald
Salzman: 'A Study of Isolation and Immunization of Individuals from the
Larger Society in Which They Live' (University of Chicago 1951)
(e) Many JWs avoid obtaining medical help, despite being psychotic, in a
catatonic state, severely depressed or brain damaged, because of their
inherent distrust of professionals, ingrained by the Society. See Barbara
Harrison: 'Visions of Glory: A History and a Memory of Jehovah's
Witnesses' (Simon and Schuster, N.Y. 1978)
(f) The Society actively discourages JWs from social or spiritual contact
with non-JWs, so the JW's psychiatric condition is less likely to be
reported.
(g) Many JW-students or temporarily non-associating JWs including those
brought up as JWs would be unlikely to classify themselves as JWs when
asked - though in assessing the number of JWs in Western Australia such
people were included. Many persons raised around the influence of the
Witnesses (especially during their formative years) who leave as adults
often remain largely JW in belief (Penton 1985).
(h) There was no pressure on patients to disclose this information -
proportions are worked out on the basis that many stated no religious
affiliation.
(i) JWs do not view their faith, which they call "the truth" as being a
religious affiliation at all - and so would not need to answer the survey
with other than "none".
(j) JWs would be afraid that if any member of the staff of the
psychiatrist or interviewer was a JW, they would get reported to their
elders and disciplined/disfellowshipped (with consequent lifelong shunning
in the vast majority of cases).
(k) For the reasons set out at (d), a troubled JW is likely to go to his
elders, who are liable to recommend against seeing a mental health
professional (for obvious reasons, unrelated to what is best for that JW)
and in serious cases even to remove (or get him to remove himself by
making him feel unwelcome) the suffering one from the congregation lest he
bring shame to the JWs. This way he no longer gets counted as a "demonized
JW" but as a "non-JW, worldly lunatic".
For these ELEVEN reasons it is estimated that there is a 2-4 times
under-representation in the mental health figures, indicating that ~10% of
Jehovah's Witnesses are in urgent need of serious psychiatric help. Many
have grown able to conceal their mental illness from outsiders, convincing
householders how happy JWs are, while immediately after speaking for hours
to fellow JWs of severe depression and feelings of hopelessness, hatred
and suppressed anger towards JWs and outsiders etc.
Spencer's studies reinforced those of Dr J. von Janner in the Forensic
Psychiatric and military medical assessment of Conscientious Objectors,
published in the Schweizerische Medizinische Wochenschrift 1962 Vol 93, No
23 819-26. Janner examined 100 randomly selected Swiss citizens whose
objection to military service resulted in imprisonment. 85% were JWs, and
a significant proportion of these were introverted, with high levels of
fear anxiety, severe neuroticism and/or social isolation tendencies. 96%
of JWs were unskilled or semi-skilled workers. Over a twentienth of the
JWs had been previously convicted of a sexual offence (e.g. paedophilia,
exhibitionism) and another twentieth of non-sexual offences. Janner
concluded the JWs were "quite colorless .. somewhat removed from reality".
It was observed that the Society was detrimental to many regardless of
their problems at the time they were indoctrinated.
An even more telling earlier study on the mental health of JWs was by Dr
M.J.Pescor M.D. in 1949, published in The American Journal of Psychiatry,
Vol 105 No 9, pp641-52, with a sample size of 177 JWs. He found that 44%
of Conscientious Objector JWs who were hospitalized were clinically
psychotic (if faking, they would surely fake less unpleasant things -
psychotic patients may need restraining, would get a permanent medical
record that was liable to restrict their future choices - as well as mean
they were likely to be released LATER than anyone else)! This represented
7.5% of ALL the 177 C.O. JWs in the study - a rate TWENTY to FORTY times
the average for the general population (0.2-0.4%)! The ratio is fair as
nearly all male JWs of draft age were included: though some JWs accepted
alternative service and probably exhibited a less psychotic profile, most
did not and were imprisoned - so the adjustment would be negligible. On
the other hand, the most psychotic of JWs would have been excluded from
Pescor's sample as they would have been judged medically unfit for service
(and thus not C.O.s at all) - so the real figures for JW psychotics could
be even worse than forty times more than in the general population.
Another 4% of the whole JW population studied (not just the hospitalized)
had other serious mental abnormalities and 24% were rated socially
maladjusted. Almost 50% of JWs were raised on farms and over 50% were
engaged in agricultural work, usually as laborers. Under half had some
high school education (but the median grade was only 9.2). Spanish was the
most popular class pursued while in prison.
The earliest study I found was by Swedish psychiatrist Dr Gosta Rylander,
in 'A Psychological and Sociological Study of Jehovah's Witnesses',
published in Nordisk Medicin 1946, Vol 29 p526-33. Over 93% of the
randomly-selected Conscientious Objectors he studied were JWs. Of the JWs,
41% were diagnosed as neurotic, over 33% as psychotic, over 25% as
mentally retarded, and 4% as brain-damaged. Again, these figures are
under-estimates because the more obviously "crazy" JWs would not have been
classified as Conscientious Objectors but just as lunatics (who are
automatically excluded from military service). Diagnosis was on the basis
of pathological behavior, including irrational paranoia and severe
long-term depression. Rylander observed some of the symptoms were evident
before conversion to JWs, but the Society's influence was often
detrimental to mental health, sometimes severely so. c4% of the eligible
armed service Swedish population were judged, on a borad index,
psychologically unfit for service - the corresponding figure for JWs was
21% - five times higher! Most of the JWs were actively involved in the
Watchtower (which is why they had to reject military service). Rylander
concluded that many lacked education, job skills, emotional stability and
quality social relations. Unsatisfactory employment records existed
because of psychological deficiencies, lack of ability and immaturity.
Rylander found that JWs committed "a relatively large number of small
crimes and other misdemeanors which generally resulted only in a fine.. 3%
of the JWs had been imprisoned for stealing or harboring of stolen
property, and 29% have been fined for various offenses (traffic
violations, drunkenness, unlawful selling of alcohol, poaching, unlawful
entering, etc.)". The neurotic symptoms widespread in the JW sample
included "feelings of discomfort, general anxiety, poor sleep habits,
times of brooding over what they see as the meaninglessness of life, the
wrongs they have suffered and the mistakes they have made." He concluded
that individual Witnesses tended to be burdened with a variety of serious
concerns and often joined the sect in an effort to solve their many
problems.
Unsurprising then is this internal report from the Jehovah's Witnesses'
OWN psychologist Dr Onoda to the sect's Governing Body (as quoted in
M.J.Penton's: 'Apocalypse Delayed' (1985) by: "I would like to consider
another reason why Jehovah's people have mental problems, but I want to be
cautious that some do not misunderstand the following statements..
Jehovah's true organization .. can contribute to or accelerate an existing
problem rather than making it better. What Biblical teaching contributes
to making a problem worse? It is guilt. Jehovah's people are confronted
with a higher standard and thus have greater psychological pressure. The
'world' says, if it makes you feel guilty get rid of it. But we have to
maintain the high level of Christian conduct in our families, daily lives
and personalities. We cannot think a wrong thought without feeling guilty.
If the Witness becomes unbalanced, he/she may become overly despondent and
feel like a failure because perfection cannot be attained in mind, body
and thought. In essence, some of the 'Friends' try so hard to please
Jehovah that they become mentally ill."
TYPICAL RESPONSE TO THIS OVERWHELMING PROOF FROM A JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
A typical JW reply to this overwhelming evidence - even from their "own"
official psychiatrist - is along the lines of "The only true Christians
are us JWs, and we are persecuted for Jehovah's sake. These statistics
about the high mental illness rate are just another example of this." (a
brain-washed response in line with the findings of Penton 1985 and
Harrison 1978) or to outright refuse to acknowledge its validity (as found
by Botting 1984 - a natural ego-based reaction) and even notwithstanding
their own personal experiences of unhappiness and extremely odd behaviour
among JWs (Harrison 1978 and Hickman 1984). Lage 1984 and Bergman observed
among almost a hundred JWs repeated examples of proselytizing (claiming
happiness) while confiding immense doubts, troubles, fears and inter-JW
personality conflicts a few minutes later.
WHAT CAUSES THE HIGH RATE OF MENTAL ILLNESS AMONG JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES?
(A) Endless change in policy and doctrine, flip-flopping as many as eight
times on a single issue. Vaccinations were absolutely prohibited {GAGE Feb
4 1931 293} into the 1960s but are now extolled; all organ transplants
were banned in {WT Nov 15 1967 702-4} - even corneal, kidney and other
transplants were considered cannibalism. Then most transplants became
acceptable except for bone marrow ones {WT Mar 15 1980 31}, but the
exception was over-ruled 4 years later. In {WT 1961 63-4} they reversed
themselves and prohibited blood transfusions of ANY sort (as being eating
blood and being punishable by automatic disfellowshipping and lifelong
shunning - JWs were compelled to watch their children die - and hundreds
did). Even the use of adhesives based on blood was prohibited, as well as
the use of pet food containing any part of blood! This was followed by
thirty years of changing back and forth, allowing (and disallowing) the
use of various blood fractions including serum, albumin, globulins, factor
VIII, factor IX, own stored and even circulating blood. The ban on blood
fractions for hemophiliacs was lifted in 1978. Even the quantity of blood
was made an issue - "a tiny amount" was OK in some defined cases. Finally
in {WT Jun 15 1991 30-1} the doctrine was turned about provided "a court
authorized transfusion seems likely" and the JW had "put forth strenuous
efforts to avoid a violation of God's law on blood" and that he "could
view it as suffering for the sake of righteousness". In the Journal of the
American Medical Association, Feb 1997 Vol 277 No 5 425, it was estimated
that the doctrine had "led thousands to die needlessly". Even now the
Society encourages and joins with people suing doctors either due to
failed procedures arising from non-use of blood or for using blood without
full consent. Other JW flip-flops are to be found throughout this List.
Guilt and suppressed rage are predictable phenomena in JWs whose lives
have been affected by such changes - typical is 'if only the Society had
changed its mind a few years earlier, then..'. No wonder mental health of
many suffer.
(B) The teaching that all outside their Organization are Satanic and to be
destroyed at Armageddon produces all sorts of aberrant behavior.
Pennsylvania teenagers Bryan (17) and David (16) Freeman murdered their
parents and young brother in 1995, had strict upbringing as Jehovah's
Witnesses, Carl Taylor, a Michigan State University criminologist, noted
(The Detroit News. Mar 3 1995 8a). William Carlson (16) murdered both his
parents is another of perhaps hundreds of similar cases (Chicago News Sun
29-30 Oct 19-30 1990). In 1999, JW-student Timothy Barton murdered his
children, wife and many others in Atlanta - his wife was actively anti-JW
and did not wish the children to be indoctrinated (so by murdring them
Barton was giving them a better chance to see Paradise, as his death note
suggested).
(C) Every single prophecy or prediction of any import made by the JWs has
failed (the world has ended but no one noticed - many times over), as this
List amply indicates (hundreds of failures...). As the Society's
publications are (at least) quasi-inspired as they repeatedly claim ("a
new Bible chapter that arrives each week" is how critic Bergman puts it),
this awareness creates in the mind of the JW a deep-rooted phobia that the
Society is indeed false and Satanic (exactly what they accuse all others
of) - and that all the things they sacrificed to become and stay JWs were
a total waste, at best. This reality is terrifying for most JWs, whose
only way of coping with the trauma is to suppress and deny, rather than
deal with it. The resultant cognitive dissonance is hardly beneficial to
mental health either.
(D) The knowledge that most informed "worldly" people (who outnumber JWs
by almost 1,000:1) regard the JWs at best as severely dysfunctional and
deluded, and at worst as raving lunatics, is hardly calming. Recent
articles (Newsweek Jul 20 1981 75 'Are They False Witnesses?', Dec 18 1995
59) ridiculing JW failures - the claim that the "last days" countdown to
Armageddon began in 1914 (earlier, 1874), and that the generation of 1914
would witness Armageddon are replaced by now "all millennial bets are off
the sect's leaders quietly acknowledged that Jesus was right in the
first place". The widespread view of JWs as ignorant fools just reinforces
their foolish conduct, belief they are persecuted etc.
(E) The belief that their own ability to understand through independent
Bible study is zero, and only the very highest Society leaders (the
Governing Body: previously, individual charismatic Presidents) can discern
God's will, reinforces stupid activities.
(F) The repeated focus and total belief in Armageddon whose aftermath
shall be 6,000,000,000 corpses including thousands of millions of young
children, including all ones' loved ones alive at Armageddon who are not
associated with the JWs - is a belief structure liable to cause emotional
turmoil and even enough to derange.
(G) The Society is seen as the (only) Ark - doing good deeds or being
"christian" is irrelevant to salvation, all that really counts is
membership and compliance with the Society's often illogical rules and
minutiea. This unhealthy atmosphere is hardly conducive to mental
well-being.
(H) There is no honorable way to leave the JWs, and all JWs know this.
Both voluntary and involuntary (religious "Court") departures lead to
shunning by all JWs, which in practice is lifelong: ex-JWs who discuss JW
matters are viewed as "dogs returning to their own vomit". There are many
cases of parent-child links being severed forever as a result of shunning.
Shunning is a terrible threat, especially as the Society has actively
discouraged all contact with non-JWs except for proselytizing, so all
non-JW friends are usually lost while becoming a JW - and now all the JW
contacts (and family?) will be lost on leaving (the whole purpose being to
discourage disloyalty). The fear that there is no way out, and that they
have to go along while no longer believing the numerous false JW
teachings, can cause schizophrenia and worse.
(I) The Society's "historical archives provide a seemingly inexhaustible
pool of craziness, superficially written articles, and naive acceptance of
formerly in-vogue ideas .. their incredibly superficial research, and the
fact that the attitude of 'God directs us' tends to cause laziness - why
work hard if God directs the way? God will ensure that only what is true
will be published." (Bergman: JW Research Vol 1 No 4 Fall 1994 28). A
brain trained not to be used... "The size of the nose, as also the size of
the eyes, is not without significance. The small-nosed man cannot have a
judicial mind, whatever his other excellencies may be. And a man whose
nose upturns can no more be expected to administer justice than a pug dog
can be expected to act as a shepherd." {GA Jan 19 21 p224} is a typical
example. To see a hundred more absurd JW teachings, read my "List" at
http://www.intrex.net/tallyman/the_list.html
(J) The pressure of following all JW prescriptions and proscriptions,
jumping through hoops covering every aspect of life, from permitted
conduct in the marital bed, banning celebration of birthdays or holidays
(even non-religious ones), participation in school events, strongly
discouraging higher education, sports or career advancement (menial jobs
were encouraged - the JW was less likely to come into contact with those
who could logically show him his views were ill-founded), condemnation for
missing any of the numerous mandatory "meetings" each week,
excommunication for smoking and so on places so much pressure on the
individual that mental problems often develop.
(K) JWs - including children - are taught all in the outside world are
evil - the worldly ones who appear to be kind are simply part of a Satanic
trick to lure people out of "God's Organization". This produces all sorts
of persecution complexes and paranoia.
(L) JWs are forbidden to read or watch anything even remotely critical of
JWs on pain of excommunication. "Apostate literature" is "spiritual
pornography", JWs must have "nothing to do with" critics, and "will not be
curious about what such people have to say." {WT Mar 15 1996 17}.
(M) There is little time for calm reflection - frenzied spreading of the
Society's "Good News" before Jehovah destroys "this wicked system of
things" is uppermost at all times. Such single-mindedness also exacerbates
mental problems and delusions.
(N) JWs are overwhelmingly lower class - upper-middle-class or upper-class
JWs are virtually unheard of (see Pescor above). One branch overseer
stated to Montague that: "of 40,000 Witnesses, I know of only 2 families
that might be termed upper-middle class, but no one else. University
professors are almost totally unknown." Almost no intelligent or
well-educated people join the JWs - and those few who do, usually leave if
only because the dominant, controlling, conformist ideological hierarchy
is unbearable. Even JWs who correctly anticipated doctrinal shifts and
policy swings were condemned for doing so, and stayed condemned even after
the change! Montague reports the statement: "One of the things that
bothers me most about the Society is the incredibly arrogant attitude of
those at Bethel - refusing to listen to reason or even give credit for the
individual members having a mind .. it is predominantly a lower-class
religion with extremely few college graduates. Actually, virtually
everyone I know that is fairly well educated has left them.." The JW
environment is such that those with serious problems often do not socially
encounter intelligent people who could detect and help address the
problems.
(O) The sacrifices - loved ones, careers, opportunities - made by a JW
will, at times when the JW is disillusioned, become irrationally bitter
about what he chose to give up. The feeling of failure contributes to
mental problems - also failure at converting others, as the Society
acknowledges it spends 3,000+ proselytizing hours per baptism EVEN while
counting "easy" baptisms of JW children and dependents. Most JWs never
make a successful conversion of an outsider (which might take as much as
10,000 publishing hours - for a 10 publishing hrs/week JW, that is 20
years!).
(P) Another key causal factor in the high incidence of mental illness rate
among JWs is the discouragement of JWs from consulting or seeking
professional help (mainly, to avoid bad publicity for the cult), as can be
seen from this List and also W.S.Salisbury: 'Religion in American Culture:
A sociological interpretation' (Homewood, Illinois, Dorsey Press, 1965
202). Instead, submission to JW Elders (as prescribed in the headline 1975
quote) results in the application of one disciplinarian solution for all
mental problems: study and pray more, and comply more closely with the
Soceity's dictates (which are probably part or all of the problem). Elders
are taught that mental illness is caused either by sin or demonism, and
may probe the JW for more information - creating more fear and guilt - and
threaten expulsion/shunning or probation. Elders have no recognized
training in counselling ("janitors and brush salesmen" is how Montague
reports one JW viewed them) and often mistake natural defensiveness when
confronted with a lack of repentance. The mentally ill JW is thus unlikely
to get better.
(Q) People with mental problems, and also the unintelligent (a different
matter altogether) are FAR more likely to join the JWs in the first place
(Rylander and Spencer above) than "normal" people. The problems are likely
to get worse within the Organization (same source).
(R) The closed and hierarchical JW environment exacerbates JW-JW conflicts
and power struggles. As steam cannot be let off, with everyone spying on
everyone else, hostilities build up and may finally erupt into real
physical violence (evidenced by above average crime figures for JWs as
already seen) or bitterness - or else remain bottled up and frustrated
forever, giving more mental problems to the JW. A JW told Montague: "95%
of the Witnesses are very corrupt people - but that still does not mean it
is not God's organization".
(S) JWs are ACTIVELY TAUGHT that to HATE PEOPLE is good (in fact, divinely
commanded):
Watchtower October 1, 1952 pages 596-604:-
"Haters of God and His people [Jehovah's Witnesses] are to be hated .. We
must hate in the truest sense, which is to regard with extreme and active
aversion, to consider as loathsome, odious, filthy, to detest. Surely any
haters of God are not fit to live on His beautiful earth"
(T) JWs are ACTIVELY TAUGHT that LYING is commendable:
"[a lie is] 'a false statement by one to another one who is entitled to
hear and to know the truth, and which false statement tends to work injury
to the other'" {Riches p177, written by the President of the JWs}.
"LIE [definition] .. Lying generally involves saying something false to a
person who is entitled to know the truth and doing so with the intent to
deceive or to injure him or another person.. this does not mean that a
person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who
are not entitled to it. ... {Insight 2 p244-5}
"a person is not obligated to divulge truthful information" {WT Dec 15
1993 p25}
"The enemies [of Jehovah's Witnesses] did not deserve to learn the truth"
{WT Feb 1 1956 p80/86}
"No, she replied, and went on her way. Did she tell a lie? No, she did
not. She was not a liar. Rather, she was using theocratic war strategy,
hiding the truth by action and word for the sake of the ministry." {WT May
1 1957 p284-5}
"As a soldier of Christ he is in theocratic warfare and he must exercise
caution when dealing with God's foes. Thus the Scriptures show that for
the purpose of protecting the interests of God's cause, it is proper to
hide the truth from God's enemies." {WT Jun 1 1960 p352}
(U) JWs are taught to despise family members who turn away from the JWs:-
"We are not living today among theocratic nations where such members of
our fleshly family relationship could be EXTERMINATED for apostasy from
God and his theocratic organization, as was possible and was ORDERED ..
Thou shalt surely KILL him; THY HAND shall be first upon him to PUT HIM TO
DEATH.. Being limited by the laws of the
worldly nation in which we live .. we can take action against apostates
only to a certain extent." {WT Nov 15 1952, emphases mine}
(V) JWs are focussed on brutality and cultivated to be insanely
unreasonable by their official binding publications. The doctrine on rape
summarised below has often been maintained:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Per JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES' OFFICIAL TEACHINGS 3/8/74: JW ANSWER
Is the woman compelled to strongly Resist a rapist? [Yes]
Even if the rapist(s) is/are armed? Knife? Gun? [Yes]
Even if he threatened to kill if she did not submit? [Yes]
Would Jehovah's Laws be breached if she did not resist? [Yes]
Even in the last circumstance -"I'll kill you unless"? [Yes]
Even if she is actually in the process of being killed? [Yes]
If she fails in ANY of this, is she is a FORNICATOR? [Yes]
Is that per the OFFICIAL JEHOVAH'S WITNESS BIBLE? [Yes]
Are fornicators subject to JW's DISCIPLINARY ACTION? [Yes]
Is usual outcome where there is fornication, Removal? [Yes]
Is the person removed (DF'd) to be TOTALLY SHUNNED for
LIFE by all JWs (a grudging part-exception for very
close family, but even they must spiritually shun) [Yes]
Will another JW who breaks the shunning be SHUNNED? [Yes]
As JWs PREDOMINANTLY HAVE JW FRIENDS & CONTACTS, does
this SHUNNING have a very considerable bad effect? [Yes]
Has it been found to cause DEPRESSION even SUICIDES? [Yes]
Is SHUNNING a tool to CONTROL JWs and make them comply? [Yes]
Has the Poor Victim of Violent-Rape been raped AGAIN? [Yes]
---------------------------------------------------------------
In the Internet group alt.religion.jehovahs-witn, a JW asscoaite described
this policy as "compassionate"!
(X) JWs have often been encouraged to beat their children - and not just
with the hand, and HARD. Preferably not just with the hand. "the child
must suffer pain." {WT Aug 15 1963 p498}, "beat him with a rod" {WT Sep 1
1978 p5, May 1 1979 p30, Mar 1 1955 p136, You Can Live Forever 1982 p132},
"the lessons learned at mother's knee do not make as lasting an impression
as those learned while stretched across daddy's." {WT Jan 5 1954 p54-60}.
Evn "Modern parents, in this age of delinquent youngsters, can take a
lesson from the .. koala. When baby koalas 'are really naughty .. the
mother turns them over her knee and spanks them on their bottoms for
minutes on end with the flat of her hand, during which time their screams
are soul-rending." {WT Feb 1 1956 p95}. Beating for not paying attention
at JW meetings is recommended {WT Jun 15 1957 p373} .. and so on. Dozens
more examples are there.
(Y) JWs are trained to avoid "independent thinking". "Avoid Independent
Thinking .. Why is it so dangerous? Such thinking is an evidence of pride.
And the Bible says: 'Pride is before a crash, and a haughty spirit before
stumbling.' (Proverbs 16:18) If we get to thinking that we know better
than the organization .. No, we cannot!.. Fight against independent
thinking.. From the very outset of his rebellion Satan called into
question God's way of doing things. He promoted independent thinking.. How
is such independent thinking manifested? A common way is by questioning
the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization.. Yet certain
ones have professed to know better. They have rebelled against such
counsel and have done what is right in their own eyes." {WT Jan 15 1983
p22-7}. By this sort of teaching (many more examples in the List) that to
do right as one sees it is actually wrong, can but encourage evil and
mental illness.
(Z) "Although the overseers are imperfect men, there is no need for anyone
in the congregation to hold back from being submissive since it is
Jehovah's arrangement and he will hold the overseers responsible for their
actions." {OAOM 1983 p39} Many more examples in The List. Mental
submissiveness to injustice can lead to psychological problems galore.
These 26 reasons contribute to the abnormally high levels of mental
illness and violent crime among JWs.
Non-JWs: YOU PROBABLY HAVE NO CONCEPTION ON HOW BINDING THE OFFICIAL JW
TEACHINGS ARE ON THE BRAIN-WASHED CULT MEMBERS...
More Reading: Richard Hickman: 'The Mental Health of Jehovah's Witnesses;
Reflections of Twenty-Five Years' (Love Agape Ministries Press, Worthville
Ky 1984), David Reed: 'Worse than Waco - Jehovah's Witnesses hide a
tragedy' (Comments from the Friends, Soughton Ma 1993), Dr Jerry Bergman:
'The Problem of Mental Health and Jehovah's Witnesses' (Witnesses Inc,
Clayton Ca 1992), Dr Eli Chesen: Religion may be Hazardous to Your Health'
(Collier Books, N.Y. 1972), C Moxon: 'Religion in the Light of
Psychoanalysis' (The Psychoanalytic Review, Jan 1921 92-8), Werner Cohn:
'Jehovah's Witnesses as a Proletarian Movement' (The American Scholar Vol
24 1955 281-98), Steve Hassan: 'Combating Cult Mind Control' (Park St.
Press, 1990) Dr Jules Masserman: 'Faiths and Delusion in Psychotherapy'
(American Journal of Psychiatry Vol 110 1953 324-33)
CONCLUSION
The prevalence of mental illness among Jehovah's Witnesses is
significantly higher - up to FORTY TIMES HIGHER - than among the general
population, per ALL scientific studies encountered (and are more likely to
be involved in violent crimes).
JWs deny there is any problem at all, consider all this evidence to be
fake, proclaim they are the happiest and best adjusted people on earth and
are instructed by their "god" (the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, the
Jehovah's Witnesses Organization) to avoid contact with mental health
professionals (who are derided).
There are about 15,000,000 JWs (and close associates, in the pipe-line to
becoming a JW) in the World.
When you hear the knock.. remember. THERE IS DANGER AT YOUR DOORSTEP.
THE LIST OF AMAZING JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES' CLAIMS, BELIEFS & PREDICTIONS
Prepared by MYSELF may be found at the following websites:-
http://www.freeminds.org/history/part1.htm
http://www1.tip.nl/~t661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm
http://localsonly.wilmington.net/jmalik/TheList.zip
http://www.concordance.com/watchtower.htm
It is FULLY IN ACCORDANCE with the teachings of the WATCHTOWER Bible &
Tract Society (WTBTS) for every member of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES to Carefully
Study the LIST mentioned above, which comprises truly fine scriptural food
from its own publications. Remember the WTBTS told you to confirm whether
what was taught by the WTBTS was in harmony with the Bible - and if not,
not to circulate it {WT Mar 1 1894 repr p1629}, to confirm WT teachings
against the Bible {WT May 1 1934 p131}, to invite critical examination of
your faith {WT Aug 15 1950 p263}, that, far from being wrong, it is your
duty to examine religion to see if it is true or false {WT Nov 15 1963
p688}, that you should actively examine your own religion {The Truth That
Leads To Eternal Life 1968 p13, a WTBTS publication}, that you should check
and examine BOTH sides of a matter {Awake! Oct 22 1973 p6}, that your
religion was in no way afraid of being exposed to scrutiny {WT Aug 1 1978
p12}, that you should to be willing to submit everything to scrutiny
{Awake! Aug 22 1984 p22/28}, that you should not have a closed mind {WT Nov
22 1984 p3-4}, that you should actively refer to the older publications {WT
Jun 15 1985 p12}, that all people are encouraged to examine other religions
and with an open mind {WT Apr 1 1991 p17} and that you are encouraged to
exhibit freedom of thought {Awake! Jun 8 1994 p21}. So, please follow this
advice of the WTBTS, and study that LIST very carefully. "You will know the
Truth and the Truth will set you free."(John 8:32). Fine advice indeed!
THE LIST IS PRODUCED IN DIRECT RESPONSE TO A RECENT REQUEST BY THE WTBTS in
{WT Dec 1 1990 p19}, where it quotes {WT Dec 15 1914 p377-8}: "If any one
knows anything better, let him take it. If any of you ever find anything
better, we hope you will tell us." Kindly, Prominent Bethelite has duly
obliged. Having read it, if you find the WTBTS has ever told falsehoods,
follow the WTBTS advice clearly given in {WT Dec 1 1991 p7} "A religion
that teaches lies cannot be true."; if you find the WTBTS has even made one
false prophecy, follow the WTBTS advice clearly given in {WT Feb 1 1992 p3}
"Beware of False Prophets!" - and cut yourself off from these Foul Cheats.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: tobs: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action?, geological effects in minutes |
03 Jan 2005 02:57:02 PM |
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On 3 Jan 2005 12:18:52 -0800, said in alt.atheism:
Al Klein wrote:
On 3 Jan 2005 07:53:43 -0800, said in
alt.atheism:
ergo the asian disaster was an evolutionary event.
Since tectonic plates aren't organic, no.
Evolition applies also to non living things...
Not in to and not in aa.
Now I wonder what Geoligical effect would a global flood have on the
planet, in short time period.
Probably none since, in order to have that much water on the planet,
it would have had to be there for eons.
In what form.. liquid, solid, or gas?
There isn't enough water on the planet, in all forms combined, to
flood Mt. Everest. Never has been either.
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| User: "Great Googly Moogly" |
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| Title: Re: tobs: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action?, geological effects in minutes |
03 Jan 2005 05:04:22 PM |
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On 3 Jan 2005 12:18:52 -0800, wrote:
Since tectonic plates aren't organic, no.
Evolition applies also to non living things...
Define non-living.
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| User: "~~~~*" |
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| Title: Re: tobs: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action?, geological effects in minutes |
03 Jan 2005 06:01:09 PM |
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"Great Googly Moogly" <blm555@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mpjjt0heoqme0ceq0tp59d45tjlcd4ip85@4ax.com...
On 3 Jan 2005 12:18:52 -0800, wrote:
Since tectonic plates aren't organic, no.
Evolition applies also to non living things...
Define non-living.
==========================
Wait, let me guess.... Jabriol from the neck up?
Mel.....
"The test of every religious (like the Watchtower Society), political,
or educational system is the man (like Jabriol) that it forms."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ }<((({{o>
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: tobs: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action?, geological effects in minutes |
04 Jan 2005 12:32:27 PM |
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On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 18:04:22 -0500, Great Googly Moogly
<blm555@aol.com> said in alt.atheism:
On 3 Jan 2005 12:18:52 -0800, wrote:
Since tectonic plates aren't organic, no.
Evolition applies also to non living things...
Define non-living.
Jabriol, for one.
--
"Damn. Looks like all of usenet agrees that you don't have the logical
faculties to prove the statement 'dogshit is not peanut butter' if we
gave you a jar of each and a box of crackers" - John Hattan to Tichy
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
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| User: "Jabriol2" |
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| Title: Re: Jabriol Threatens Carol. Jabriol live in fear. |
04 Jan 2005 01:21:33 AM |
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In article <75VPUM4238210.4005324074@anonymous.poster>
PreConFusion a.k.a JABRIOL [Antonio L. Santana]@127.0.0.1 wrote:
I going to snip here, everything that you wrote. You have my
numbar.You did not answer a
single stupit question I asked, and when you asked for proof on
them calling
me a child molester, you did not reply, because the proof was
given. Yes, you proof I molest my daugter and make her
pregnant. so what?
however your reply demostrates, simply that I am wrong and you
are
wright again. I complete ***** as you say
Thank you for once again proving me a total morons.
however if you wish to prove me right answer the questions I put
out
forward in this stupit thread.
reply in any other fashion, and you have prove me correct or is
tha t wrong once again.
and there would be no need to continue. by the way your friend
Detective Gibsson of the Camden police force, is very interested
in
your accusation of me being child molester and that I clam your
husband rape your 40 year old son. After all it his Job, to
look into these things, since I made the complaint. However if
the
complaint is real an it is so, you an I will be hearing from
various sources,
including your legal ones. i did clam your husband rape your
adult son.
now then, I you know where i live, you know my ISP, and you know
the legal consequence of my sick actions, and how it may affect
you in a
court of law, more so, because you did not follow my advice.. on
that note answer the questions, or live in fear like i do of
being caughy.
your choice
boo hahaha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
-=-
This message was sent via two or more anonymous remailing services.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action? |
30 Dec 2004 03:30:46 AM |
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William Kimbler wrote:
Try this on for size maybe; just maybe it was just nature and all the right
factors happening at just the right time to cause such a disaster. In short
terms it just happened because everything just fell into place at the right
time.
I guess what I am saying is don't read more into it than what's there.
The earth's plates are moving all the time and seismic actions are recorded
daily, only occasionally do things get out of hand.
Read no more into it than that.
The size of this tradegy, bad though it is, does nothing, but nothing to
bolster belief in any gods or a god that would cause such a tragic event a few
days after celebrating the birthday of His so called son, leading to the death
of over 30,000 children.
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| User: "Precision" |
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| Title: Re: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action? |
30 Dec 2004 06:37:46 AM |
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"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:41D3CAC6.F4F41893@netvigator.com...
William Kimbler wrote:
Try this on for size maybe; just maybe it was just nature and all the
right
factors happening at just the right time to cause such a disaster. In
short
terms it just happened because everything just fell into place at the
right
time.
I guess what I am saying is don't read more into it than what's there.
The earth's plates are moving all the time and seismic actions are
recorded
daily, only occasionally do things get out of hand.
Read no more into it than that.
The size of this tradegy, bad though it is, does nothing, but nothing to
bolster belief in any gods or a god that would cause such a tragic event a
few
days after celebrating the birthday of His so called son, leading to the
death
of over 30,000 children.
Excellent point that God is likely angry about the choice of dates to
celebrate His only-begotten Son's birthday, although I wouldn't go so far as
to think He caused the disaster to send a signal of His displeasure in this
regard.
For others who are unaware of what I'm talking about, the early Christian
church leaders in the 4th century decided to celebrate Christ's birth on the
December 25th which was the god Mythra's supposed birthday. That is why many
Christians such as Jehovah's Witnesses do not recognize December 25th as the
actual birthdate of Jesus, but a pagan holiday not only established on the
birthdate of a pagan god (Mythra) but also marked by pagan symbolism (such
as the Christmas tree used in pagan worship and other anti-Christian
symbolism adopted by an early church that turned to apostasy).
The terrible truth about the origins of Christmas can be found at the
following link:
http://home.earthlink.net/~melrogers/cmchristmas.htm
One interesting quote from this web site: "Romans worshipped Mythra, the god
of the unconquerable sun. The birthday of Mythra was celebrated on December
25, called Saturnalia, and it was the holiest day of the year to the Romans.
This worship carried over into the early Christian church in Rome.
Gradually, the worship shifted to that of Jesus. In the fourth century, the
Roman Catholic church made this day officially the celebration of the birth
of Jesus."
Again, I'm not sure if you were trying to use hyperbole to make your point
about the hypocrisy of Christians celebrating a holiday that actually is in
opposition to the Christian faith, or if you actually meant to imply that
God would punish over 30,000 children because of the wide-scale celebrations
by those professing to be Christian? If the latter was the case then I
disagree that God would punish those least responsible for the religious
hypocrisy of their parents (if their parents are even Christians, which I
believe in that area of the world there are more Buddhists and Muslims if
I'm not mistaken).
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| User: "Karpio DePisces" |
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| Title: Re: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action? |
30 Dec 2004 04:37:35 PM |
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"Precision" <precision@Usenet.com> wrote in message
news:41d3f531_1@Usenet.com...
Excellent point that God is likely angry about the choice of dates to
celebrate His only-begotten Son's birthday, although I wouldn't go so far
as
to think He caused the disaster to send a signal of His displeasure in
this
regard.
## With wars going in many places, women and children being raped all over
the earth, serial kills running loose, people starving to death, children
dying of the diseases he created, AIDS wiping out whole villages in Africa
and worse - your Jehovah is concerned and angry because people celebrate the
birthday of his rare hybrid son? That children are so happy and excited?
That adults get to visit and see relatives they haven't seen in awhile? How
PETTY, immature and petulant can a god get?
For others who are unaware of what I'm talking about, the early Christian
church leaders in the 4th century decided to celebrate Christ's birth on
the
December 25th which was the god Mythra's supposed birthday.
## So? Jesus never said to do away with festivals and having fun.
That is why many
Christians such as Jehovah's Witnesses do not recognize December 25th as
the
actual birthdate of Jesus,
## JWs are not Christians, but some book selling sect that destroys lives,
marriages and families.
====== Snip your mindless anti-Christ rant.
Carpio...
Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to
evade the need to think and evaluate evidence.
Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of,
the lack of evidence. - Richard Dawkins
==========================================
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| User: "deowll" |
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| Title: Re: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action? |
02 Jan 2005 08:05:24 PM |
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"Karpio DePisces" <fish@fish.net> wrote in message
news:QcmdnZEjhMmsHkncRVn-hw@heartoftn.net...
"Precision" <precision@Usenet.com> wrote in message
news:41d3f531_1@Usenet.com...
Excellent point that God is likely angry about the choice of dates to
celebrate His only-begotten Son's birthday, although I wouldn't go so far
as
to think He caused the disaster to send a signal of His displeasure in
this
regard.
## With wars going in many places, women and children being raped all over
the earth, serial kills running loose, people starving to death, children
dying of the diseases he created, AIDS wiping out whole villages in Africa
and worse - your Jehovah is concerned and angry because people celebrate
the
birthday of his rare hybrid son? That children are so happy and excited?
That adults get to visit and see relatives they haven't seen in awhile?
How
PETTY, immature and petulant can a god get?
How would I know? I didn't make this place or the rules. I just live here
and my three score and ten only has 16 more years left.
If you really want to learn though spend a few days visiting a nursing home.
For others who are unaware of what I'm talking about, the early Christian
church leaders in the 4th century decided to celebrate Christ's birth on
the
December 25th which was the god Mythra's supposed birthday.
## So? Jesus never said to do away with festivals and having fun.
That is why many
Christians such as Jehovah's Witnesses do not recognize December 25th as
the
actual birthdate of Jesus,
## JWs are not Christians, but some book selling sect that destroys lives,
marriages and families.
====== Snip your mindless anti-Christ rant.
Carpio...
Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to
evade the need to think and evaluate evidence.
Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of,
the lack of evidence. - Richard Dawkins
==========================================
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action? |
03 Jan 2005 10:44:23 AM |
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Karpio DePisces wrote:
snip
## JWs are not Christians, but some book selling sect that destroys
lives,
marriages and families.
====== Snip your mindless anti-Christ rant.
sure.. we all know how the JW's cause your two marraiges to fail,
so easy to blame everyone else for your own shortcommings...
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| User: "Ivy Towerz" |
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| Title: Re: Asian natural disaster or evolution - or is Antonio L Santana/Jabriol blaming Jehovah? |
03 Jan 2005 06:46:40 PM |
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<jabriol@fastmail.fm> with yet another free e-mail account vomited forth in
message news:1104770663.470688.5040@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Karpio DePisces wrote:
snip
## JWs are not Christians, but some book selling sect that destroys
lives,
marriages and families.
====== Snip your mindless anti-Christ rant.
sure.. we all know how the JW's cause your two marraiges to fail,
so easy to blame everyone else for your own shortcommings...
=================================
They JWs caused the end of many, many marriages as we've seen right on this
NG. Is that something new to you? Look what the WTS did to your family.
You lost all your children because of your shortcomings and cruelty. They
wouldn't even give you the time of day because of Revis.
The WTS/JWs destroyed many families as well as marriages. Thanks for
reminding us.
So your shortcomings are also the fault of the WTS? Is that why you're a
sadistic sociopath? Do tell... :-)
--
Mel ....
"Jabriol wants to be loved; failing this, to be admired; failing this, to be
feared; failing even this, to be hated and despised. Jabriol wants to
arouse
some sort of feeling in people. The soul shrinks from the void and wants
contact at any price." ~ Hjalmar Soderberg ~
==========================================================
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| User: "Raymond Griffith" |
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| Title: Re: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action? |
30 Dec 2004 12:07:29 PM |
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in article 41d3f531_1@Usenet.com, Precision at wrote on
12/30/04 7:37 AM:
"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:41D3CAC6.F4F41893@netvigator.com...
William Kimbler wrote:
Try this on for size maybe; just maybe it was just nature and all the
right
factors happening at just the right time to cause such a disaster. In
short
terms it just happened because everything just fell into place at the
right
time.
I guess what I am saying is don't read more into it than what's there.
The earth's plates are moving all the time and seismic actions are
recorded
daily, only occasionally do things get out of hand.
Read no more into it than that.
The size of this tradegy, bad though it is, does nothing, but nothing to
bolster belief in any gods or a god that would cause such a tragic event a
few
days after celebrating the birthday of His so called son, leading to the
death
of over 30,000 children.
Excellent point that God is likely angry about the choice of dates to
celebrate His only-begotten Son's birthday,
Not another one! And no, he did not make a point about the "choice of
dates".
But if God is angry that people celebrate the Birth of Christ on Decemeber
25, then that is awfully petty to be angry about, considering we don't know
exactly when He was born. The important thing is that people remember Him
and why He came. On December 25, as well as December 24, 23, 26, 27, etc., I
thanked God and worshipped Him.
And almost nobody cares about what you have posted below. Only a few cranky
fundies who don't understand what real worship is about. Whether a "heathen"
holiday was coopted or not is unimportant. No one worships Mithra today. He
is all but forgotten. Those going to church on Christmas to worship were
worshipping Christ.
The Letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Your Letter is devoid of God's
Spirit.
although I wouldn't go so far as
to think He caused the disaster to send a signal of His displeasure in this
regard.
That would be rather silly, wouldn't it, considering that most people in
that part of the world are not Christians, much less celebrate Christmas?
Anti-Christmas rant deleted.
Regards,
Raymond E. Griffith
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| User: "Precision" |
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| Title: Re: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action? |
30 Dec 2004 09:19:12 PM |
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"Raymond Griffith" <tiffirgrReverse@ctc.net> wrote in message
news:BDF9AE11.75D1%tiffirgrReverse@ctc.net...
in article 41d3f531_1@Usenet.com, Precision at wrote
on
12/30/04 7:37 AM:
"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:41D3CAC6.F4F41893@netvigator.com...
William Kimbler wrote:
Try this on for size maybe; just maybe it was just nature and all the
right
factors happening at just the right time to cause such a disaster. In
short
terms it just happened because everything just fell into place at the
right
time.
I guess what I am saying is don't read more into it than what's there.
The earth's plates are moving all the time and seismic actions are
recorded
daily, only occasionally do things get out of hand.
Read no more into it than that.
The size of this tradegy, bad though it is, does nothing, but nothing to
bolster belief in any gods or a god that would cause such a tragic event
a
few
days after celebrating the birthday of His so called son, leading to the
death
of over 30,000 children.
Excellent point that God is likely angry about the choice of dates to
celebrate His only-begotten Son's birthday,
Not another one! And no, he did not make a point about the "choice of
dates".
But if God is angry that people celebrate the Birth of Christ on Decemeber
25, then that is awfully petty to be angry about, considering we don't
know
exactly when He was born. The important thing is that people remember Him
and why He came. On December 25, as well as December 24, 23, 26, 27, etc.,
I
thanked God and worshipped Him.
And almost nobody cares about what you have posted below. Only a few
cranky
fundies who don't understand what real worship is about. Whether a
"heathen"
holiday was coopted or not is unimportant. No one worships Mithra today.
He
is all but forgotten. Those going to church on Christmas to worship were
worshipping Christ.
The Letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Your Letter is devoid of
God's
Spirit.
although I wouldn't go so far as
to think He caused the disaster to send a signal of His displeasure in
this
regard.
That would be rather silly, wouldn't it, considering that most people in
that part of the world are not Christians, much less celebrate Christmas?
Anti-Christmas rant deleted.
Regards,
Raymond E. Griffith
Instead of arguing with you about whether history should be dismissed with
the waive of a hand, I just want to say that I cannot imagine any Christian
who believes in celebrating birthdays wanting their birthday celebrated on
the birthdate of a false god instead of the actual date of which they were
born.
If one believes it is important to celebrate someone's birthday, and they do
not know the date of that person, then suppose others arbitrarily chose the
date of an ancient god because they figured it was as good as any other day.
"Since we don't know the exact day or month of their birthday," they
reasoned, "why not use the god Mythra's birthday instead?"
Now suppose that the person whose birthday they are celebrating on this
arbitrary date may feel strongly about false gods, and prefer that if you're
going to celebrate their birthday at all - but don't know the exact date -
to pick some neutral date instead?
Let's take Jesus Christ as a case in point. Is there evidence Jesus, if
nobody knows the real date of his birthday, would be okay about them
choosing the birthday of a mythical god that people once worshipped?
Raymond, I'm not going to even go there or debate that issue.
If I believed in celebrating birthdays, hypothetically speaking (!), I will
simply state that I would personally have told them, "I don't feel
comfortable with your picking the date of a mythical god to celebrate my
birthday. If you don't know the date of my birthday then why not pick some
neutral date to celebrate it? It bothers me that according to history, the
early church decided that Mytha's birthday was a good date to celebrate my
birthday. Why not pick another month to celebrate it? If you really want to
celebrate it at all?"
I celebrate the Lord's Evening Meal, and personally don't see why I should
add Christmas knowing the viewpoint of Jesus Christ's Father expressed about
false God's in the book of Exodus chapters 33 and 34?
If you're going to condemn me for that, if harshly judging the faith in
Christ of others is part of your religion, Raymond, then so be it.
.
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| User: "~ Windsong ~" |
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| Title: Re: Asian natural disaster or evolution in action? |
30 Dec 2004 09:53:15 PM | | | | | | |
