| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Elroy Willis" |
| Date: |
11 Jun 2004 08:09:41 AM |
| Object: |
Astrology vs. Christianized Astronomy? |
While googling around, I found the following web page:
From:
http://starsandcoffee.christian-astronomers.org/zodiac.shtml
"If you were born between the 1st and 15th of December then your star
sign is not Sagittarius as you thought, but Ophiuchus. Ophiuchus is
the thirteenth constellation through which the sun passes, and isn't
included on astrological calendars!"
====
I dunno if the above is true or not, but I kept on reading the page
to see what else it had to say. The page talks about the precession
of the equinox and how invalid astrology actually is since the
constellation change over time, so I was agreeing along with the
writer for the most part. Then...
The setup for the bombshell:
"Predictions and forecasts are common - the weather, the deficit, the
stockmarket. They are often wrong - and so we get rained on, taxed
more, and lose money. Most horoscopes would class as predictions.
Prophecies relate to specific events in the future. Many people are
aware of the prophecies of Nostradamus - but his statements can
normally only be interpreted in hindsight after the event, and are
open to several interpretations. They are also subject to unscrupulous
invention. (For more see the World Trade Centre terrorism)"
Here's the bombshell -- get ready...
"By contrast, Bible prophecy has been shown to be true, with a 100%
track record. For instance prophecy about the resurrection of Jesus
Christ 2000 years ago is validated by evidence that would be upheld in
a court of law. (For more info see Five Proofs of the Resurrection)"
Boy oh boy, it's like the floodgates of logic get closed down or
clogged up at that point. Or blown up by a bomb...
What's just as sad is the following from the same page:
"The ways that the Thirteen Signs of the Zodiac symbolise Jesus are .
1. Virgo the Virgin - Jesus had a supernatural birth
2. Libra the Scales - Jesus gave his life in exchange for ours
3. Scorpio the Scorpion - Jesus died by crucifixion
4. Ophiuchus the Serpent-bearer - Jesus supernaturally rose back to
life
5. Sagittarius the Archer - Jesus reached the mark - he was perfect
6. Capricorn the Goat - Jesus is a scapegoat for our wrongs
7. Aquarius the Water-bearer - Jesus is "living water" for our
spiritual thirst
8. Pisces the Fishes - Jesus provides our needs
9. Aries the Ram - Jesus takes our place
10. Taurus the Bull - Jesus warns that all of us will be judged and
found wanting
11. Gemini the Twins - Jesus offers us the opportunity to choose him
or reject him
12. Cancer the Crab - our personal trust in Jesus is what rescues
our soul
13. Leo the Lion - Jesus is King and conqueror"
====
Although the author seems to go to great lengths to discount
and debunk astrology, he/she then goes on to tell how Jesus
relates to the 12 or 13 constellations, with some of the associations
being quite inventive to say the least...
I guess this is another good example of one belief system trying to
discredit or supplant or overpower another, by using the symbology of
the previous system at the same time?
I will mention #6 up above, to get the ball rolling here, and let
anyone else who cares to pick apart any of the others join in the
fray...
It was Barabbas who was the scapegoat in the Jesus story,
since in Judaism, the scapegoat was actually set free to carry
away the sins of the tribe, off into the desert...
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "Jo" |
|
| Title: Re: Astrology vs. Christianized Astronomy? |
12 Jun 2004 03:14:13 AM |
|
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"Elroy Willis" <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:h6cjc051loqt2ft9j9s5mqtpb2qfsr396m@4ax.com...
Boy oh boy, it's like the floodgates of logic get closed down or
clogged up at that point. Or blown up by a bomb...
For more information on what happens to logic when minds get infected by
religion do a Google on "meme theory"
Jo
.
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| User: "Edmond Wollmann" |
|
| Title: Re: Astrology vs. Christianized Astronomy? |
14 Jun 2004 06:57:19 PM |
|
|
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message news:<h6cjc051loqt2ft9j9s5mqtpb2qfsr396m@4ax.com>...
While googling around, I found the following web page:
From:
http://starsandcoffee.christian-astronomers.org/zodiac.shtml
"If you were born between the 1st and 15th of December then your star
sign is not Sagittarius as you thought, but Ophiuchus. Ophiuchus is
the thirteenth constellation through which the sun passes, and isn't
included on astrological calendars!"
I dunno if the above is true or not, but I kept on reading the page
to see what else it had to say. The page talks about the precession
of the equinox and how invalid astrology actually is since the
constellation change over time, so I was agreeing along with the
writer for the most part. Then...
The setup for the bombshell:
"Predictions and forecasts are common - the weather, the deficit, the
stockmarket. They are often wrong - and so we get rained on, taxed
more, and lose money. Most horoscopes would class as predictions.
Prophecies relate to specific events in the future. Many people are
aware of the prophecies of Nostradamus - but his statements can
normally only be interpreted in hindsight after the event, and are
open to several interpretations. They are also subject to unscrupulous
invention. (For more see the World Trade Centre terrorism)"
Here's the bombshell -- get ready...
"By contrast, Bible prophecy has been shown to be true, with a 100%
track record. For instance prophecy about the resurrection of Jesus
Christ 2000 years ago is validated by evidence that would be upheld in
a court of law. (For more info see Five Proofs of the Resurrection)"
Boy oh boy, it's like the floodgates of logic get closed down or
clogged up at that point. Or blown up by a bomb...
What's just as sad is the following from the same page:
"The ways that the Thirteen Signs of the Zodiac symbolise Jesus are .
1. Virgo the Virgin - Jesus had a supernatural birth
2. Libra the Scales - Jesus gave his life in exchange for ours
3. Scorpio the Scorpion - Jesus died by crucifixion
4. Ophiuchus the Serpent-bearer - Jesus supernaturally rose back to
life
5. Sagittarius the Archer - Jesus reached the mark - he was perfect
6. Capricorn the Goat - Jesus is a scapegoat for our wrongs
7. Aquarius the Water-bearer - Jesus is "living water" for our
spiritual thirst
8. Pisces the Fishes - Jesus provides our needs
9. Aries the Ram - Jesus takes our place
10. Taurus the Bull - Jesus warns that all of us will be judged and
found wanting
11. Gemini the Twins - Jesus offers us the opportunity to choose him
or reject him
12. Cancer the Crab - our personal trust in Jesus is what rescues
our soul
13. Leo the Lion - Jesus is King and conqueror"
Although the author seems to go to great lengths to discount
and debunk astrology, he/she then goes on to tell how Jesus
relates to the 12 or 13 constellations, with some of the associations
being quite inventive to say the least...
I guess this is another good example of one belief system trying to
discredit or supplant or overpower another, by using the symbology of
the previous system at the same time?
I will mention #6 up above, to get the ball rolling here, and let
anyone else who cares to pick apart any of the others join in the
fray...
It was Barabbas who was the scapegoat in the Jesus story,
since in Judaism, the scapegoat was actually set free to carry
away the sins of the tribe, off into the desert...
Shows what a little bit of knowledge can can do as far as muddling the
waters even more. There is no discrepancy in most spitirual truths, it
is the misinformed and confused "followers" and sheep, that make
things difficult.
Re: The Constellations as opposed to equinox divisions;
Footnote 3, page 21 of the preface to Ptolemy's "Tetrabiblos",
"...Ptolemy's astrology is just as applicable to modern and improved
astronomy as it was to his own."
The objection which has been urged against astrology, that the
signs are continually moving from their positions, cannot invalidate
this conclusion.
That objection has, in fact, no real existence; for Ptolemy seems to
have been aware of this motion of the signs, and has fully provided
for it in the 25th Chapter of the 1st Book of the Tetrabiblos. From
that chapter it is clear that the respective influences he ascribes to
the twelve signs (or divisions of the zodiac) were considered by him
as appurtenant to the places they occupied, and not to the stars of
which they were composed. He has expressly and repeatedly
declared that the point of the vernal equinox is ever the beginning of
the zodiac, and that the 30 degrees following it ever retain the same
virtue as that which he has in this work attributed to Aries,
although the stars forming Aries may have quitted those degrees: the
next 30 degrees are still be accounted as Taurus, and so of the rest.
There is abundant proof throughout the Tetrabiblos, that Ptolemy
considered the virtues of the constellations of the zodiac distinctly
from those of the spaces they occupied."
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
© 2004 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
Astrological Consulting http://www.astroconsulting.com/
Articles http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/info.htm
Artworks http://www.e-wollmann.com/TOC.htm
.
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| User: "Dan Baldwin" |
|
| Title: Re: Astrology vs. Christianized Astronomy? |
15 Jun 2004 12:58:38 PM |
|
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Edmond Wollmann wrote:
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message news:<h6cjc051loqt2ft9j9s5mqtpb2qfsr396m@4ax.com>...
While googling around, I found the following web page:
From:
http://starsandcoffee.christian-astronomers.org/zodiac.shtml
"If you were born between the 1st and 15th of December then your star
sign is not Sagittarius as you thought, but Ophiuchus. Ophiuchus is
the thirteenth constellation through which the sun passes, and isn't
included on astrological calendars!"
I dunno if the above is true or not, but I kept on reading the page
to see what else it had to say. The page talks about the precession
of the equinox and how invalid astrology actually is since the
constellation change over time, so I was agreeing along with the
writer for the most part. Then...
The setup for the bombshell:
"Predictions and forecasts are common - the weather, the deficit, the
stockmarket. They are often wrong - and so we get rained on, taxed
more, and lose money. Most horoscopes would class as predictions.
Prophecies relate to specific events in the future. Many people are
aware of the prophecies of Nostradamus - but his statements can
normally only be interpreted in hindsight after the event, and are
open to several interpretations. They are also subject to unscrupulous
invention. (For more see the World Trade Centre terrorism)"
Here's the bombshell -- get ready...
"By contrast, Bible prophecy has been shown to be true, with a 100%
track record. For instance prophecy about the resurrection of Jesus
Christ 2000 years ago is validated by evidence that would be upheld in
a court of law. (For more info see Five Proofs of the Resurrection)"
Boy oh boy, it's like the floodgates of logic get closed down or
clogged up at that point. Or blown up by a bomb...
What's just as sad is the following from the same page:
"The ways that the Thirteen Signs of the Zodiac symbolise Jesus are .
1. Virgo the Virgin - Jesus had a supernatural birth
2. Libra the Scales - Jesus gave his life in exchange for ours
3. Scorpio the Scorpion - Jesus died by crucifixion
4. Ophiuchus the Serpent-bearer - Jesus supernaturally rose back to
life
5. Sagittarius the Archer - Jesus reached the mark - he was perfect
6. Capricorn the Goat - Jesus is a scapegoat for our wrongs
7. Aquarius the Water-bearer - Jesus is "living water" for our
spiritual thirst
8. Pisces the Fishes - Jesus provides our needs
9. Aries the Ram - Jesus takes our place
10. Taurus the Bull - Jesus warns that all of us will be judged and
found wanting
11. Gemini the Twins - Jesus offers us the opportunity to choose him
or reject him
12. Cancer the Crab - our personal trust in Jesus is what rescues
our soul
13. Leo the Lion - Jesus is King and conqueror"
Although the author seems to go to great lengths to discount
and debunk astrology, he/she then goes on to tell how Jesus
relates to the 12 or 13 constellations, with some of the associations
being quite inventive to say the least...
I guess this is another good example of one belief system trying to
discredit or supplant or overpower another, by using the symbology of
the previous system at the same time?
I will mention #6 up above, to get the ball rolling here, and let
anyone else who cares to pick apart any of the others join in the
fray...
It was Barabbas who was the scapegoat in the Jesus story,
since in Judaism, the scapegoat was actually set free to carry
away the sins of the tribe, off into the desert...
Shows what a little bit of knowledge can can do as far as muddling the
waters even more.
Exactly. Just like when fuckhead blowhard "astrologers" conflate Earth's
varying magnetic field with the force of gravity over the ages and
deduce that dinosaurs were the size they were because of different
gravity.
'member that one, Edmo? Almost as much a gem as your "Orion is a star"
nugget.
Still waiting for the list of accounts you keep claiming I've lost, and
we know you don't have that many years left in that diseased carcass of
yours. Tick tock tick tock.
--
Dan Baldwin, unethical *by design*
I am a minion of Satan, but my powers are mainly administrative.
Hail the un-alive
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Wollmannizer nocem 02380 @@NCM |
14 Jun 2004 02:57:11 PM |
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http://www.smbtech.com/ed/
http://www.nocem.org/
http://www.rahul.net/falk/quickrefs.html#W
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| User: "Keera Ann Fox" |
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| Title: Re: Astrology vs. Christianized Astronomy? |
11 Jun 2004 11:49:31 AM |
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Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:
While googling around, I found the following web page:
From:
http://starsandcoffee.christian-astronomers.org/zodiac.shtml
"If you were born between the 1st and 15th of December then your star
sign is not Sagittarius as you thought, but Ophiuchus. Ophiuchus is
the thirteenth constellation through which the sun passes, and isn't
included on astrological calendars!"
Of course Ophiuchus isn't included on astrological calendars. Tropical
astrology doesn't use constellations. To start using this 13th
constellation (and making up a sign with character traits to go with it,
which has been done), would be to invent a whole new astrology.
There _are_ more than 12 _constellations_ in the Zodiac. 12 of them
share the same name as the 12 _signs_. The 12 signs are of equal size
(being 1/12 of a circle each), whereas the constellations are of unequal
size and the Sun doesn't spend the same amount of time in each.
I've read about Ophiuchus and I've wondered what it would mean to start
using constellation-based "astrology". For starters, it would change how
we determine and interpret aspects. Now, if you have an opposition, it's
in complementary elements. Start shoving signs around to accommodate a
13th, and aspects will be degrees only. What does it then mean to have a
Gemini Moon opposing an Ophiuchus Sun? What element and modality is
Ophiuchus?
Constellation-based astrology would throw out just about everything we
use in regards to aspects, elements and modalities in tropical (12
sign/season-based) astrology. It just wouldn't be the same thing as
astrology as we know it.
--
****** Keera in Norway ******
* Think big. Shrink to fit. *
http://home.online.no/~kafox/
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Astrology vs. Christianized Astronomy? |
11 Jun 2004 01:02:30 PM |
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"Keera Ann Fox" <ka.fox@online.no> wrote in message
news:1gf8bia.k2wfxlqb7lliN%ka.fox@online.no...
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:
While googling around, I found the following web page:
From:
http://starsandcoffee.christian-astronomers.org/zodiac.shtml
"If you were born between the 1st and 15th of December then your star
sign is not Sagittarius as you thought, but Ophiuchus. Ophiuchus is
the thirteenth constellation through which the sun passes, and isn't
included on astrological calendars!"
Of course Ophiuchus isn't included on astrological calendars. Tropical
astrology doesn't use constellations. To start using this 13th
constellation (and making up a sign with character traits to go with it,
which has been done), would be to invent a whole new astrology.
There _are_ more than 12 _constellations_ in the Zodiac. 12 of them
share the same name as the 12 _signs_. The 12 signs are of equal size
(being 1/12 of a circle each), whereas the constellations are of unequal
size and the Sun doesn't spend the same amount of time in each.
I've read about Ophiuchus and I've wondered what it would mean to start
using constellation-based "astrology". For starters, it would change how
we determine and interpret aspects. Now, if you have an opposition, it's
in complementary elements. Start shoving signs around to accommodate a
13th, and aspects will be degrees only. What does it then mean to have a
Gemini Moon opposing an Ophiuchus Sun? What element and modality is
Ophiuchus?
Constellation-based astrology would throw out just about everything we
use in regards to aspects, elements and modalities in tropical (12
sign/season-based) astrology. It just wouldn't be the same thing as
astrology as we know it.
But it would have the same validity as today's astrology. None
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
11 Jun 2004 08:33:59 PM |
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Mike Painter <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Keera Ann Fox <ka.fox@online.no> wrote in message
Constellation-based astrology would throw out just about everything we
use in regards to aspects, elements and modalities in tropical (12
sign/season-based) astrology. It just wouldn't be the same thing as
astrology as we know it.
But it would have the same validity as today's astrology. None
Not to change the subject or anything, but what's your personal
knowledge or opinion about the phrases "seventh heaven" vs "cloud
nine" as far as describing some state of ecstasy?
Most of us have probably heard someone say "I'm on cloud
nine," or "I'm in seventh heaven," don't you think?
Did "cloud nine" only become used as a phrase after the planet
Pluto was actually discovered in the 1930's, do you know?
Are there any actual references to "I'm on cloud nine" used
before the 1930's?
And what about cloud 8? What is it? The orbit of Uranus
or Neptune?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "Double-A" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
12 Jun 2004 01:45:03 AM |
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Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message news:<e6qkc0dbgcunr80mmac4pnppinrgq1d410@4ax.com>...
Mike Painter <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Keera Ann Fox <ka.fox@online.no> wrote in message
Constellation-based astrology would throw out just about everything we
use in regards to aspects, elements and modalities in tropical (12
sign/season-based) astrology. It just wouldn't be the same thing as
astrology as we know it.
But it would have the same validity as today's astrology. None
Not to change the subject or anything, but what's your personal
knowledge or opinion about the phrases "seventh heaven" vs "cloud
nine" as far as describing some state of ecstasy?
Most of us have probably heard someone say "I'm on cloud
nine," or "I'm in seventh heaven," don't you think?
Did "cloud nine" only become used as a phrase after the planet
Pluto was actually discovered in the 1930's, do you know?
Are there any actual references to "I'm on cloud nine" used
before the 1930's?
And what about cloud 8? What is it? The orbit of Uranus
or Neptune?
The term "seventh heaven" comes out of theology, the concept of 7
levels of heaven being included in Judaism, Islam, and other
theologies. It's thought to be of Babylonian origins founded on
ancient astronomical theories.
Double-A
.
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| User: "Uncle Dollar Bill" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
11 Jun 2004 11:41:19 PM |
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In alt.atheism on Sat, 12 Jun 2004 01:33:59 GMT, Elroy Willis
<elo@airmail.net> wrote:
Mike Painter <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Keera Ann Fox <ka.fox@online.no> wrote in message
Constellation-based astrology would throw out just about everything we
use in regards to aspects, elements and modalities in tropical (12
sign/season-based) astrology. It just wouldn't be the same thing as
astrology as we know it.
But it would have the same validity as today's astrology. None
Not to change the subject or anything, but what's your personal
knowledge or opinion about the phrases "seventh heaven" vs "cloud
nine" as far as describing some state of ecstasy?
Most of us have probably heard someone say "I'm on cloud
nine," or "I'm in seventh heaven," don't you think?
Did "cloud nine" only become used as a phrase after the planet
Pluto was actually discovered in the 1930's, do you know?
Are there any actual references to "I'm on cloud nine" used
before the 1930's?
And what about cloud 8? What is it? The orbit of Uranus
or Neptune?
I can't be sure, but I know the U.S. Weather Service numbers their
cloud types. Clouds of type 9 are at the highest altitude for cloud
formation, iirc.
--
L8r,
Uncle Dollar Bill
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
11 Jun 2004 09:15:27 PM |
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(Uncle Dollar Bill) wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:
Mike Painter <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Keera Ann Fox <ka.fox@online.no> wrote in message
Constellation-based astrology would throw out just about everything
we use in regards to aspects, elements and modalities in tropical (12
sign/season-based) astrology. It just wouldn't be the same thing as
astrology as we know it.
But it would have the same validity as today's astrology. None
Not to change the subject or anything, but what's your personal
knowledge or opinion about the phrases "seventh heaven" vs "cloud
nine" as far as describing some state of ecstasy?
Most of us have probably heard someone say "I'm on cloud
nine," or "I'm in seventh heaven," don't you think?
Did "cloud nine" only become used as a phrase after the planet
Pluto was actually discovered in the 1930's, do you know?
Are there any actual references to "I'm on cloud nine" used
before the 1930's?
And what about cloud 8? What is it? The orbit of Uranus
or Neptune?
I can't be sure, but I know the U.S. Weather Service numbers their
cloud types. Clouds of type 9 are at the highest altitude for cloud
formation, iirc.
I read that explanation on several different links and found it rather
weak, for the most part...
From:
http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorc.htm
"Various tales have been attached to the phrase due to the number
nine. But are certainly false because in the phrase's early days other
numbers were often used, most commonly seven, sometimes thirty-nine. A
1930s quote uses Cloud Eight to refer to being drunk (which hints that
the phrase may be considerably older than the 1950s). The probable
meaning is simply a generalization of "out there" with no specific
intent."
My idea or hypothesis is that when people discover/discovered a new
planet/object in heaven, they were/are overjoyed. I have seen the
same reaction when an astronomer verifies some idea of theirs. A new
planet in another solar system, or even the landing of a probe on a
planet. I get goosebumps and tears of excitement when I see many
of those new things or discoveries, myself, even though I'm not
personally involved in the project, so I don't even have to put myself
in another person's shoes to know the feeling they get. Shivers of
excitement of a new discovery, or a successful launch or successful
landing, or some other milestone of human exploration into space.
I would like to see someone come up with a few references to the use
of the phrase "I'm on cloud nine" being used before the 1930's.
From the above link:
"A 1930s quote uses Cloud Eight to refer to being drunk."
Is it possible that it means the astronomers passed around some
champagne or beers or wine to celebrate the discovery? I don't
see anything wrong with that, do you?
Hmm...
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
11 Jun 2004 11:54:02 PM |
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"Elroy Willis" <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:fjrkc0hbj7kusis0nm18id17dcev3ni1u0@4ax.com...
UncleDollarBill@SpamMeNot.com (Uncle Dollar Bill) wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:
Mike Painter <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Keera Ann Fox <ka.fox@online.no> wrote in message
Constellation-based astrology would throw out just about everything
we use in regards to aspects, elements and modalities in tropical (12
sign/season-based) astrology. It just wouldn't be the same thing as
astrology as we know it.
But it would have the same validity as today's astrology. None
Not to change the subject or anything, but what's your personal
knowledge or opinion about the phrases "seventh heaven" vs "cloud
nine" as far as describing some state of ecstasy?
Most of us have probably heard someone say "I'm on cloud
nine," or "I'm in seventh heaven," don't you think?
Did "cloud nine" only become used as a phrase after the planet
Pluto was actually discovered in the 1930's, do you know?
Are there any actual references to "I'm on cloud nine" used
before the 1930's?
And what about cloud 8? What is it? The orbit of Uranus
or Neptune?
I can't be sure, but I know the U.S. Weather Service numbers their
cloud types. Clouds of type 9 are at the highest altitude for cloud
formation, iirc.
I read that explanation on several different links and found it rather
weak, for the most part...
From:
http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorc.htm
"Various tales have been attached to the phrase due to the number
nine. But are certainly false because in the phrase's early days other
numbers were often used, most commonly seven, sometimes thirty-nine. A
1930s quote uses Cloud Eight to refer to being drunk (which hints that
the phrase may be considerably older than the 1950s). The probable
meaning is simply a generalization of "out there" with no specific
intent."
My idea or hypothesis is that when people discover/discovered a new
planet/object in heaven, they were/are overjoyed. I have seen the
same reaction when an astronomer verifies some idea of theirs. A new
planet in another solar system, or even the landing of a probe on a
planet. I get goosebumps and tears of excitement when I see many
of those new things or discoveries, myself, even though I'm not
personally involved in the project, so I don't even have to put myself
in another person's shoes to know the feeling they get. Shivers of
excitement of a new discovery, or a successful launch or successful
landing, or some other milestone of human exploration into space.
I would like to see someone come up with a few references to the use
of the phrase "I'm on cloud nine" being used before the 1930's.
From the above link:
"A 1930s quote uses Cloud Eight to refer to being drunk."
Is it possible that it means the astronomers passed around some
champagne or beers or wine to celebrate the discovery? I don't
see anything wrong with that, do you?
http://www.britishorigami.org.uk/thok/cloud9.html
traces it to the weather bureau and Johnny Dollar
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
12 Jun 2004 09:43:03 AM |
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Mike Painter <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in alt.atheism
http://www.britishorigami.org.uk/thok/cloud9.html
traces it to the weather bureau and Johnny Dollar
I guess that makes more sense than people's vision or knowledge
of heaven expanding as new planets were discovered.
Have you seen the following diagram before?
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/jpg/cosmology1.jpg
There are 10 levels listed there, but I notice that
the orbit of Saturn has a COELU in it, and wonder if that
was perhaps seventh heaven to whoever drew the geo-centric
diagram?
Also, what is the flipped 69 symbol, and why does it appear
in layers 8, 9, and 10?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
12 Jun 2004 01:27:45 PM |
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"Elroy Willis" <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:oc6mc0l6ctkujue6s52r3o1akaqogdf0qp@4ax.com...
Mike Painter <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in alt.atheism
http://www.britishorigami.org.uk/thok/cloud9.html
traces it to the weather bureau and Johnny Dollar
I guess that makes more sense than people's vision or knowledge
of heaven expanding as new planets were discovered.
Have you seen the following diagram before?
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/jpg/cosmology1.jpg
There are 10 levels listed there, but I notice that
the orbit of Saturn has a COELU in it, and wonder if that
was perhaps seventh heaven to whoever drew the geo-centric
diagram?
Also, what is the flipped 69 symbol, and why does it appear
in layers 8, 9, and 10?
Those are zodiac symbols and 69 according to this
http://www.byzant.com/astrology/zodiac.asp is Leo.
.
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| User: "Odysseus" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
12 Jun 2004 02:31:03 PM |
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Mike Painter wrote:
Those are zodiac symbols and 69 according to this
http://www.byzant.com/astrology/zodiac.asp is Leo.
The labels on that page don't line up well with the graphics, but if
you count them out you should see that the symbol is that for Cancer.
--
Odysseus
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
12 Jun 2004 02:40:15 PM |
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"Odysseus" <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in message
news:40CB5A0C.61883A26@yahoo-dot.ca...
Mike Painter wrote:
Those are zodiac symbols and 69 according to this
http://www.byzant.com/astrology/zodiac.asp is Leo.
The labels on that page don't line up well with the graphics, but if
you count them out you should see that the symbol is that for Cancer.
Thanks. I didn't pay much attention.
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
13 Jun 2004 07:06:03 AM |
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Mike Painter <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Odysseus <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in message
Mike Painter wrote:
Those are zodiac symbols and 69 according to this
http://www.byzant.com/astrology/zodiac.asp is Leo.
The labels on that page don't line up well with the graphics, but if
you count them out you should see that the symbol is that for Cancer.
Thanks. I didn't pay much attention.
I made the same mistake. :)
And I thought cancer is supposed to be a crab. Is it the same
constellation?
<google google>
From:
http://www.coldwater.k12.mi.us/lms/planetarium/myth/cancer.html
"Scholars believe that astrologers later added the crab to the myth in
order to have the Twelve Labors of Hercules reflect the Twelve Signs
of the Zodiac. While it is difficult to associate all of Hercules'
labors with the zodiac, it is true that the crab figured in Hercules'
Second Labor, and is in fact the Second Sign of the Zodiac."
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Julie" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
13 Jun 2004 11:17:14 AM |
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On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:06:03 GMT, Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net>
wrote:
Mike Painter <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Odysseus <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in message
Mike Painter wrote:
Those are zodiac symbols and 69 according to this
http://www.byzant.com/astrology/zodiac.asp is Leo.
The labels on that page don't line up well with the graphics, but if
you count them out you should see that the symbol is that for Cancer.
Thanks. I didn't pay much attention.
I made the same mistake. :)
And I thought cancer is supposed to be a crab. Is it the same
constellation?
<google google>
From:
http://www.coldwater.k12.mi.us/lms/planetarium/myth/cancer.html
"Scholars believe that astrologers later added the crab to the myth in
order to have the Twelve Labors of Hercules reflect the Twelve Signs
of the Zodiac. While it is difficult to associate all of Hercules'
labors with the zodiac, it is true that the crab figured in Hercules'
Second Labor, and is in fact the Second Sign of the Zodiac."
Actually, it's the fourth.
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
13 Jun 2004 11:30:51 AM |
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Julie <jb@juno.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:
Mike Painter <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Odysseus <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in message
Mike Painter wrote:
Those are zodiac symbols and 69 according to this
http://www.byzant.com/astrology/zodiac.asp is Leo.
The labels on that page don't line up well with the graphics, but if
you count them out you should see that the symbol is that for Cancer.
Thanks. I didn't pay much attention.
I made the same mistake. :)
And I thought cancer is supposed to be a crab. Is it the same
constellation?
<google google>
From:
http://www.coldwater.k12.mi.us/lms/planetarium/myth/cancer.html
"Scholars believe that astrologers later added the crab to the myth in
order to have the Twelve Labors of Hercules reflect the Twelve Signs
of the Zodiac. While it is difficult to associate all of Hercules'
labors with the zodiac, it is true that the crab figured in Hercules'
Second Labor, and is in fact the Second Sign of the Zodiac."
Actually, it's the fourth.
Depends on where you decide to start from, doesn't it? :)
Wrap-around seems to be allowed...
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "Paul Lawler" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
13 Jun 2004 03:38:44 PM |
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"Elroy Willis" <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:9i3pc05a1rlvs3kb71c288l3vn0qq0csqu@4ax.com...
"Scholars believe that astrologers later added the crab to the myth in
order to have the Twelve Labors of Hercules reflect the Twelve Signs
of the Zodiac. While it is difficult to associate all of Hercules'
labors with the zodiac, it is true that the crab figured in Hercules'
Second Labor, and is in fact the Second Sign of the Zodiac."
Actually, it's the fourth.
Depends on where you decide to start from, doesn't it? :)
Wrap-around seems to be allowed...
Well... no, actually. They start the same place astronomers start. In Aries.
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
14 Jun 2004 10:14:54 AM |
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Paul Lawler <stargazer@kilolaniDOT.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
"Scholars believe that astrologers later added the crab to the myth in
order to have the Twelve Labors of Hercules reflect the Twelve Signs
of the Zodiac. While it is difficult to associate all of Hercules'
labors with the zodiac, it is true that the crab figured in Hercules'
Second Labor, and is in fact the Second Sign of the Zodiac."
Actually, it's the fourth.
Depends on where you decide to start from, doesn't it? :)
Wrap-around seems to be allowed...
Well... no, actually. They start the same place astronomers start. In Aries.
Why start there?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "Paul Lawler" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
15 Jun 2004 01:21:46 AM |
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"Elroy Willis" <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:kcjrc0940uun72qt8b7p8nnmolt4ukhh3q@4ax.com...
Paul Lawler <stargazer@kilolaniDOT.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
"Scholars believe that astrologers later added the crab to the myth
in
order to have the Twelve Labors of Hercules reflect the Twelve Signs
of the Zodiac. While it is difficult to associate all of Hercules'
labors with the zodiac, it is true that the crab figured in Hercules'
Second Labor, and is in fact the Second Sign of the Zodiac."
Actually, it's the fourth.
Depends on where you decide to start from, doesn't it? :)
Wrap-around seems to be allowed...
Well... no, actually. They start the same place astronomers start. In
Aries.
Why start there?
Because historically that is the point where R.A. and Dec. cross. A couple
of thousand years ago it was in Aries. Due to precession it's now in Pisces,
and in a few centuries will be in Aquarius. "This is the dawning of the Age
of Aquarius." <g>
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
15 Jun 2004 06:18:20 PM |
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Paul Lawler <stargazer@kilolaniDOT.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
Paul Lawler <stargazer@kilolaniDOT.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
"Scholars believe that astrologers later added the crab to the myth
in order to have the Twelve Labors of Hercules reflect the Twelve Signs
of the Zodiac. While it is difficult to associate all of Hercules'
labors with the zodiac, it is true that the crab figured in Hercules'
Second Labor, and is in fact the Second Sign of the Zodiac."
Actually, it's the fourth.
Depends on where you decide to start from, doesn't it? :)
Wrap-around seems to be allowed...
Well... no, actually. They start the same place astronomers start. In
Aries.
Why start there?
Because historically that is the point where R.A. and Dec. cross. A couple
of thousand years ago it was in Aries. Due to precession it's now in Pisces,
and in a few centuries will be in Aquarius. "This is the dawning of the Age
of Aquarius." <g>
Yes, I understand that. Do you think anyone was around, recording
things during the age of Taurus? If so, why not start there? If not,
why do you think it was too early?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "Keera Ann Fox" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
14 Jun 2004 10:57:26 AM |
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Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:
Paul Lawler <stargazer@kilolaniDOT.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
"Scholars believe that astrologers later added the crab to the myth in
order to have the Twelve Labors of Hercules reflect the Twelve Signs
of the Zodiac. While it is difficult to associate all of Hercules'
labors with the zodiac, it is true that the crab figured in Hercules'
Second Labor, and is in fact the Second Sign of the Zodiac."
Actually, it's the fourth.
Depends on where you decide to start from, doesn't it? :)
Wrap-around seems to be allowed...
Well... no, actually. They start the same place astronomers start. In Aries.
Why start there?
Convention.
--
****** Keera in Norway ******
* Think big. Shrink to fit. *
http://home.online.no/~kafox/
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
14 Jun 2004 11:36:29 AM |
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(Keera Ann Fox) wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:
Paul Lawler <stargazer@kilolaniDOT.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
"Scholars believe that astrologers later added the crab to the myth in
order to have the Twelve Labors of Hercules reflect the Twelve Signs
of the Zodiac. While it is difficult to associate all of Hercules'
labors with the zodiac, it is true that the crab figured in Hercules'
Second Labor, and is in fact the Second Sign of the Zodiac."
Actually, it's the fourth.
Depends on where you decide to start from, doesn't it? :)
Wrap-around seems to be allowed...
Well... no, actually. They start the same place astronomers start.
In Aries.
Why start there?
Convention.
From where, originally? The Jews and Judah and the symbol
of the Ram or Lamb?
Why not start in Taurus instead, when people were sacrificing
bulls to some god in heaven who appeared to be killing a bull
in heaven? Tauro!
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "Odysseus" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
12 Jun 2004 02:26:15 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
<http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/jpg/cosmology1.jpg>
There are 10 levels listed there, but I notice that
the orbit of Saturn has a COELU in it, and wonder if that
was perhaps seventh heaven to whoever drew the geo-centric
diagram?
Yes the sphere of Saturn was supposed to be the seventh in the
series. The labels on the eighth, ninth, and tenth indicate
respectively the "firmament" (containing the stars), "crystalline",
and "prime mover" spheres.
Also, what is the flipped 69 symbol, and why does it appear
in layers 8, 9, and 10?
It's the symbol for Cancer; all the signs of the zodiac appear, in
order, in each of the outer rings. I don't know why they're offset
from one another, but it may have something to do with precession.
--
Odysseus
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
13 Jun 2004 07:46:11 AM |
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Odysseus <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/jpg/cosmology1.jpg
There are 10 levels listed there, but I notice that the orbit of
Saturn has a COELU in it, and wonder if that was perhaps seventh
heaven to whoever drew the geo-centric diagram?
Yes the sphere of Saturn was supposed to be the seventh in the
series. The labels on the eighth, ninth, and tenth indicate
respectively the "firmament" (containing the stars), "crystalline",
and "prime mover" spheres.
Jupiter is in the 6th sphere, and I've read that people born
under the influence of Jupiter are supposed to be jovial people.
And many astronomers today refer to Jupiter as the Jovian planet,
by Jove...
Was it some ancient idea that one step up from "jovial" was complete
bliss or ecstasy tied into the seventh heaven idea, which would have
been "one sphere up" from Jupiter?
Also, what is the flipped 69 symbol, and why does it appear
in layers 8, 9, and 10?
It's the symbol for Cancer; all the signs of the zodiac appear, in
order, in each of the outer rings. I don't know why they're offset
from one another, but it may have something to do with precession.
It looks like in the 8th circle, the actual number of stars are given
for each constellation, and even some brightness detail because
of the different sizes of the stars depicted.
The 9th circle has two circles with a cross in the middle of them
which looks almost like two gears. Any idea what that symbol
represents? An equinox perhaps?
And in that last circle, Cancer has the words "decimum coelum"
in front of it, which I think means 10th heaven. Someone
correct me if I'm wrong...
BTW, does anybody know when the above diagram was actually
made? I saved it one day without noting who actually drew it
or where it came from. It was supposed to be over 2000 years
old, but I can't remember who was supposed to have drawn it.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "Odysseus" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
13 Jun 2004 03:23:42 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
<http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/jpg/cosmology1.jpg>
Jupiter is in the 6th sphere, and I've read that people born
under the influence of Jupiter are supposed to be jovial people.
And many astronomers today refer to Jupiter as the Jovian planet,
by Jove...
Was it some ancient idea that one step up from "jovial" was complete
bliss or ecstasy tied into the seventh heaven idea, which would have
been "one sphere up" from Jupiter?
I don't think so. All of the naked-eye planets' names have given us
words for personal qualities, according to ancient and mediaeval
systems of correspondences. A "saturnine" person being serious,
gloomy, or sluggish, I don't see this translating into "bliss or ecstasy".
It looks like in the 8th circle, the actual number of stars are given
for each constellation, and even some brightness detail because
of the different sizes of the stars depicted.
I don't think that semblance stands up to detailed analysis. A couple
of examples: Aries and Cancer have barely the number of stars shown
(six & seven respectively) visible to the naked eye; while
Sagittarius has a great many but none of them especially bright, the
illustration shows only three 'typical' stars together with a fourth
that's larger than any other in the whole diagram. If the each
'asterisk' was intended to correspond with a particular star, some
might have been included from outside the zodiacal band: in principle
any object can be assigned to a 'sign' by projecting the entire
celestial sphere onto the plane of the ecliptic.
The 9th circle has two circles with a cross in the middle of them
which looks almost like two gears. Any idea what that symbol
represents? An equinox perhaps?
Most likely, as they're drawn right next to the Aries and Libra cusps.
And in that last circle, Cancer has the words "decimum coelum"
in front of it, which I think means 10th heaven. Someone
correct me if I'm wrong...
I take that label as referring to the whole outer ring, not the sign
in which it happens to be written. The numeral "10" appears in the
Leo compartment, and the "Prime Mover" label in that for Gemini.
BTW, does anybody know when the above diagram was actually
made? I saved it one day without noting who actually drew it
or where it came from. It was supposed to be over 2000 years
old, but I can't remember who was supposed to have drawn it.
I've certainly seen it before; it might come from Apian's
_Cosmographia_, which was first published no more than 500 years ago.
At any rate the writing style and the appearance of having been
printed from a woodcut suggest that it can be no earlier than c.XV
and probably no later than c.XVII. Although it depicts a nearly
2500-year-old cosmology, that of Aristotle, the outermost legend,
"Empyrean heaven, abode of God and all the Chosen", implies a
Christian world-view, most likely a mediaeval or Renaissance accretion.
--
Odysseus
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
14 Jun 2004 10:08:56 AM |
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Odysseus <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
<http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/jpg/cosmology1.jpg>
Jupiter is in the 6th sphere, and I've read that people born
under the influence of Jupiter are supposed to be jovial people.
And many astronomers today refer to Jupiter as the Jovian planet,
by Jove...
Was it some ancient idea that one step up from "jovial" was complete
bliss or ecstasy tied into the seventh heaven idea, which would have
been "one sphere up" from Jupiter?
I don't think so. All of the naked-eye planets' names have given us
words for personal qualities, according to ancient and mediaeval
systems of correspondences. A "saturnine" person being serious,
gloomy, or sluggish, I don't see this translating into "bliss or ecstasy".
Me either, but I do understand that the period of revolution around
the sun has to do with how the ancient people depicted the planet
gods in much of their artwork and imagery. Mercury was depicted as
young and fleet-footed, since it zips around the sun faster than any
other planet. And Venus was depicted as youthful as well, wasn't it?
I can't think of any references to Venus which depict it as an old
woman or man, can you? Once you get to the outer planets, then
they start getting depicted as older and older, according to the
planetary and cosmological myths I've read so far.
It looks like in the 8th circle, the actual number of stars are given
for each constellation, and even some brightness detail because
of the different sizes of the stars depicted.
I don't think that semblance stands up to detailed analysis. A couple
of examples: Aries and Cancer have barely the number of stars shown
(six & seven respectively) visible to the naked eye; while
Sagittarius has a great many but none of them especially bright, the
illustration shows only three 'typical' stars together with a fourth
that's larger than any other in the whole diagram. If the each
'asterisk' was intended to correspond with a particular star, some
might have been included from outside the zodiacal band: in principle
any object can be assigned to a 'sign' by projecting the entire
celestial sphere onto the plane of the ecliptic.
It's pretty hard to squeeze the picture of some actual heavenly
constellation into some narrow band such as in the above diagram,
or even into some zodiacal band, as you said. Some stars fall outside
of it, and some inside it, but some people still see a crab when they
look at some constellation, and others see something else, just
like they do while looking at clouds in the sky...
The 9th circle has two circles with a cross in the middle of them
which looks almost like two gears. Any idea what that symbol
represents? An equinox perhaps?
Most likely, as they're drawn right next to the Aries and Libra
cusps.
What is the significance of that? The two constellations
that appear on the horizon during the spring and fall equinox?
And in that last circle, Cancer has the words "decimum coelum"
in front of it, which I think means 10th heaven. Someone
correct me if I'm wrong...
I take that label as referring to the whole outer ring, not the sign
in which it happens to be written. The numeral "10" appears in the
Leo compartment, and the "Prime Mover" label in that for Gemini.
The number 10 being depicted as two vertical lines with a horizontal
line drawn on top of and below them?
It later became an X, in Roman numerals?
BTW, does anybody know when the above diagram was actually
made? I saved it one day without noting who actually drew it
or where it came from. It was supposed to be over 2000 years
old, but I can't remember who was supposed to have drawn it.
I've certainly seen it before; it might come from Apian's
_Cosmographia_, which was first published no more than 500 years
ago. At any rate the writing style and the appearance of having been
printed from a woodcut suggest that it can be no earlier than c.XV
and probably no later than c.XVII. Although it depicts a nearly
2500-year-old cosmology, that of Aristotle, the outermost legend,
"Empyrean heaven, abode of God and all the Chosen", implies a
Christian world-view, most likely a mediaeval or Renaissance accretion.
It certainly seems to imply or suggest an earth-centered or
geo-centric view of the universe and our solar system, which as
any educated person knows, is an invalid view of our solar system
and universe.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "Paul Lawler" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
15 Jun 2004 01:25:36 AM |
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"Elroy Willis" <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:uqerc09gutvklj7q17bbhnouvbcsvl9jhm@4ax.com...
Me either, but I do understand that the period of revolution around
the sun has to do with how the ancient people depicted the planet
gods in much of their artwork and imagery. Mercury was depicted as
young and fleet-footed, since it zips around the sun faster than any
other planet. And Venus was depicted as youthful as well, wasn't it?
I can't think of any references to Venus which depict it as an old
woman or man, can you? Once you get to the outer planets, then
they start getting depicted as older and older, according to the
planetary and cosmological myths I've read so far.
Ummm... well... no. The ancients thought that the Earth was the center of
the universe, so they wouldn't have been concerned with how fast Mercury
zipped around the sun, since they did not believe that it did.
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Seventh Heaven vs Cloud Nine |
15 Jun 2004 06:15:23 PM |
|
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Paul Lawler <stargazer@kilolaniDOT.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
Me either, but I do understand that the period of revolution around
the sun has to do with how the ancient people depicted the planet
gods in much of their artwork and imagery. Mercury was depicted as
young and fleet-footed, since it zips around the sun faster than any
other planet. And Venus was depicted as youthful as well, wasn't it?
I can't think of any references to Venus which depict it as an old
woman or man, can you? Once you get to the outer planets, then
they start getting depicted as older and older, according to the
planetary and cosmological myths I've read so far.
Ummm... well... no. The ancients thought that the Earth was the center
of the universe, so they wouldn't have been concerned with how fast
Mercury zipped around the sun, since they did not believe that it did.
Even though they thought the earth was the center of the universe,
they still accurately measured the repeating period of the planets, in
their own cosmological minds/models, and they knew that the periods of
Mercury and Venus are less than those of Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn.
They just had the sun in the wrong place, and several other things
wrong as well...
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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