| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Andrew W" |
| Date: |
13 Aug 2005 07:45:28 PM |
| Object: |
Atheism a religion? Please prove |
To those who maintain that atheism is a religion, please prove that this is
so.
--
Andrew W.
Free-mindedness is foolishness to those whose brains are perishing.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
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| User: "Risto Karttunen" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
19 Aug 2005 01:45:23 AM |
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DanielSan wrote:
Risto Karttunen wrote:
Oh, there is a typical atheist's worldview, after all?
Yes, and it extends beyond atheism.
OK, what else is there in that _typical_ atheist's worldview?
--
risto
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
19 Aug 2005 02:11:03 PM |
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Risto Karttunen wrote:
DanielSan wrote:
Risto Karttunen wrote:
Oh, there is a typical atheist's worldview, after all?
Yes, and it extends beyond atheism.
OK, what else is there in that _typical_ atheist's worldview?
I don't know. You'd have to ask each individual typical atheist.
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, *
* the non-existence of Zeus or Thor - but they *
* have few followers now." Arthur C. Clarke *
****************************************************
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
22 Aug 2005 03:18:45 AM |
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DanielSan wrote:
Risto Karttunen wrote:
Oh, there is a typical atheist's worldview, after all?
Yes, and it extends beyond atheism.
OK, what else is there in that _typical_ atheist's worldview?
I don't know.
You know that there is a typical atheist's worldview, but you don't
know what it is like. I see.
--
risto
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 06:55:25 AM |
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On 18 Aug 2005 00:35:53 -0700, "Risto Karttunen" <tipsu@iobox.fi>
wrote:
Kobra wrote:
I would like to apologize on behalf of the United States and atheists
everywhere. Mr Lee represents neither :-)
Accepted; I believe you. Of course these ng:s are not very
representative of any ideas and views. I personally have some nice,
friendly atheists as good friends.
Do you lie about them to their faces as well? Do you dismiss their
explanations and invent things they didn't say?
If you actually had any atheist friends you would show more
understanding of what atheism is and what it isn't.
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| User: "Risto Karttunen" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 01:45:49 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
Risto Karttunen wrote:
(...) I personally have some nice,
friendly atheists as good friends.
Do you lie about them to their faces as well? Do you dismiss their
explanations and invent things they didn't say?
I have never had any difficulties with them, even when talking about
religion. Nor with my Christian friends (even if I don't believe that
there exists a god or God, for example).
--
risto
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 02:13:43 PM |
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On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:45:49 GMT, (Risto Karttunen)
wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
Risto Karttunen wrote:
(...) I personally have some nice,
friendly atheists as good friends.
Do you lie about them to their faces as well? Do you dismiss their
explanations and invent things they didn't say?
I have never had any difficulties with them, even when talking about
religion. Nor with my Christian friends (even if I don't believe that
there exists a god or God, for example).
Then you knew you were lying about atheists.
<plonk>
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| User: "Risto Karttunen" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 02:24:28 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
Risto Karttunen wrote:
I have never had any difficulties with them, even when talking about
religion. Nor with my Christian friends (even if I don't believe that
there exists a god or God, for example).
Then you knew you were lying about atheists.
No, they haven't said so. And the topics of our discussions have been
the same as here, plus many other topics of course. Why do you get
irritated so easily? Certainly you should be prepared to meet
different opinions in the ng:s as elsewhere.
--
risto
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 07:00:52 AM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On 18 Aug 2005 00:35:53 -0700, "Risto Karttunen" <tipsu@iobox.fi>
wrote:
Kobra wrote:
I would like to apologize on behalf of the United States and atheists
everywhere. Mr Lee represents neither :-)
Accepted; I believe you. Of course these ng:s are not very
representative of any ideas and views. I personally have some nice,
friendly atheists as good friends.
Do you lie about them to their faces as well? Do you dismiss their
explanations and invent things they didn't say?
If you actually had any atheist friends you would show more
understanding of what atheism is and what it isn't.
I wonder if there's a logical fallacy called "Appeal to 'Some of my Best
Friends'" which is the logical fallacy of: "I can make fun of X because
I have some of my best friends are X."
For example (Warning: non-PC language following):
Person A: "Boy, you niggers are stupid!"
Person B: "That's really racist."
Person A: "What are you talking about?! Some of my best friends are black."
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, *
* the non-existence of Zeus or Thor - but they *
* have few followers now." Arthur C. Clarke *
****************************************************
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 07:28:10 AM |
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On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:24:16 GMT, "Kobra" <mugsy12345@hotmail.com>
wrote:
"Risto Karttunen" <tipsu@iobox.fi> wrote in message
news:1124349385.865260.77810@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
Listen, *****: WE ANSWERED YOUR QUESTIONS HONESTLY. Why are you
attacking and belittling what you refuse evento try and understand?
_Liar_, _asshole_? Possibly you are a troll. I'm not attacking nor
belittling you, I just have some different opinions.
--
risto
I would like to apologize on behalf of the United States and atheists
everywhere. Mr Lee represents neither :-)
Kobra
I'm not qualified to pass judgment about Mr Lee's capacity to
represent the USA, but it is my opinion that there are not many more
consistent, direct, veridical, accurate, concise or precise
representations of atheist expression.
Perhaps it is his steadfast forthrightness, and honesty, that
irritates you to the point of declaiming his bona fides?
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 06:53:43 AM |
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On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:24:16 GMT, "Kobra" <mugsy12345@hotmail.com>
wrote:
"Risto Karttunen" <tipsu@iobox.fi> wrote in message
news:1124349385.865260.77810@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
Listen, *****: WE ANSWERED YOUR QUESTIONS HONESTLY. Why are you
attacking and belittling what you refuse evento try and understand?
_Liar_, _asshole_? Possibly you are a troll. I'm not attacking nor
belittling you, I just have some different opinions.
--
risto
I would like to apologize on behalf of the United States and atheists
everywhere. Mr Lee represents neither :-)
I only called him a liar for lying. And an ***** for inventing
things I didn't say, drawing non sequirur "conclusions" from what I
told him etc.
He's another theist who can't think out of the box and refuses to let
atheists be just people who aren't theist.
Kobra
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| User: "Risto Karttunen" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 07:46:39 AM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
I only called him a liar for lying.
What exactly did I _lie_? At least lying is intentional, done against
one's better knowledge.
--
risto
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 07:52:47 AM |
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On 18 Aug 2005 05:46:39 -0700, "Risto Karttunen" <tipsu@iobox.fi>
wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
I only called him a liar for lying.
What exactly did I _lie_? At least lying is intentional, done against
one's better knowledge.
Every time you turned what I said into things I didn't, by drawing
"conclusions" that didn't follow.
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| User: "Risto Karttunen" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 08:12:53 AM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
I only called him a liar for lying.
What exactly did I _lie_? At least lying is intentional, done against
one's better knowledge.
Every time you turned what I said into things I didn't, by drawing
"conclusions" that didn't follow.
I may have made an error. That is unintentional, lying is not. But I
don't even think I got anything wrong. Give me an example about those
wrong "conclusions".
--
risto
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 08:52:45 AM |
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On 18 Aug 2005 06:12:53 -0700, "Risto Karttunen" <tipsu@iobox.fi>
wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
I only called him a liar for lying.
What exactly did I _lie_? At least lying is intentional, done against
one's better knowledge.
Every time you turned what I said into things I didn't, by drawing
"conclusions" that didn't follow.
I may have made an error. That is unintentional, lying is not. But I
don't even think I got anything wrong. Give me an example about those
wrong "conclusions".
When you have been corrected, repeating it is no longer an honest
mistake.
Examples of your lies:
"you are looking at the world as a place where there isn't God, or
where the concept of God is unnecessary, and probably there isn't any
other spiritual content either"
" atheism is _close_ to religion; they occupy quite the same place in
the arena of human existence and realize many same functions - they
both offer an identity, a certain non-negotiable world-view, an answer
to some basic questions about man's lot in the world, existence and
death, they may serve as manifestations of belonging into a group"
This last was the start of the flame-fest. You got it wrong and
refused to be corrected, which is tantamount to accusing us of not
telling the truth about ourselves.
You're not a mind-reader, yet you insist you're right about our
thoughts and we're wrong.
Whether or not you understand the correction, you have to accept that
we are actually describing ourselves.
And that your strawmen are fabrications to the point of falsehoods -
personal lies about us, to us.
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| User: "Risto Karttunen" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 09:04:52 AM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
Examples of your lies:
"you are looking at the world as a place where there isn't God, or
where the concept of God is unnecessary, and probably there isn't any
other spiritual content either"
You cut out the beginning: "If I ask you: do you have God in your life?
and your answer is "no", then I'd say that..."
So, where was my _lie_? I said: _If_ etc.
" atheism is _close_ to religion; they occupy quite the same place in
the arena of human existence and realize many same functions - they
both offer an identity, a certain non-negotiable world-view, an answer
to some basic questions about man's lot in the world, existence and
death, they may serve as manifestations of belonging into a group"
That is how I see it. Obviously you disagree with my opinions, but
again, where is the _lie_?
(...)
And that your strawmen are fabrications to the point of falsehoods -
personal lies about us, to us.
Ah..not only lies, but _personal_ lies...
--
risto
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 10:30:45 AM |
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On 18 Aug 2005 07:04:52 -0700, "Risto Karttunen" <tipsu@iobox.fi>
wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
Examples of your lies:
"you are looking at the world as a place where there isn't God, or
where the concept of God is unnecessary, and probably there isn't any
other spiritual content either"
You cut out the beginning: "If I ask you: do you have God in your life?
and your answer is "no", then I'd say that..."
So, where was my _lie_? I said: _If_ etc.
And if pigs had wings they could fly.
The "if" is irrelevant - you had fabricated a falsehood.
" atheism is _close_ to religion; they occupy quite the same place in
If you had said those you would have been lying, twice.
But in your mind the "if" let you off the hook.
the arena of human existence and realize many same functions - they
And if you had said that you would have been lying.
both offer an identity, a certain non-negotiable world-view, an answer
And again.
to some basic questions about man's lot in the world, existence and
And again.
death, they may serve as manifestations of belonging into a group"
And again.
But in your deluded imagination you can get away with it by hiding
behind the "if".
Because you have to be a deliberately ignorant, deluded bigot to say
any of those things.
Especially when you have been corrected.
That is how I see it. Obviously you disagree with my opinions, but
again, where is the _lie_?
And that is another lie.
YOUR VERY "OPINIONS" AS TO WHAT ATHEISM IS AND THE PLACE IT HAS
IN AN ATHEIST'S LIFE ARE FALSEHOODS.
Whether or not you disingenuously hide between an "if".
Why do you do this?
It is nothing to do with "your opinions" and everything to do with
your falsehoods. That you tell us about ourselves.
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| User: "Risto Karttunen" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 01:41:38 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
"you are looking at the world as a place where there isn't God, or
where the concept of God is unnecessary, and probably there isn't any
other spiritual content either"
You cut out the beginning: "If I ask you: do you have God in your life?
and your answer is "no", then I'd say that..."
So, where was my _lie_? I said: _If_ etc.
And if pigs had wings they could fly.
The "if" is irrelevant - you had fabricated a falsehood.
A _lie_? Besides, what falsehood do you mean? Surely I should
understand _that_, in order to be able to lie...
" atheism is _close_ to religion; they occupy quite the same place in
If you had said those you would have been lying, twice.
If I say an opinion with which you disagree, I am _lying_?
That is how I see it. Obviously you disagree with my opinions, but
again, where is the _lie_?
And that is another lie.
What is?
YOUR VERY "OPINIONS" AS TO WHAT ATHEISM IS AND THE PLACE IT HAS
IN AN ATHEIST'S LIFE ARE FALSEHOODS.
Please don't shout.
Why do you do this?
Do what? I only tried to answer a question about the relations between
atheism and religion as I see them.
It is nothing to do with "your opinions" (...)
I'm really beginning to think that your frothing has nothing to do
with my opinions.
--
risto
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 02:12:56 PM |
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On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:41:38 GMT, (Risto Karttunen)
wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
"you are looking at the world as a place where there isn't God, or
where the concept of God is unnecessary, and probably there isn't any
other spiritual content either"
You cut out the beginning: "If I ask you: do you have God in your life?
and your answer is "no", then I'd say that..."
So, where was my _lie_? I said: _If_ etc.
And if pigs had wings they could fly.
The "if" is irrelevant - you had fabricated a falsehood.
A _lie_? Besides, what falsehood do you mean? Surely I should
understand _that_, in order to be able to lie...
It's a standard and dishonesty fundy tactic: add an "if" that they
have already decided.
As you did. Stop pretending.
" atheism is _close_ to religion; they occupy quite the same place in
If you had said those you would have been lying, twice.
If I say an opinion with which you disagree, I am _lying_?
That in itself is yet another of your lies.
What part of YOU HAD INVENTED THAT FALSEHOOD are you pretending not to
understand?
And when it was explained to you WHY these were wrong, you partly
ignored and partly repeated yourself.
BY WHICH TIME YOU KNEW YOU WERE REPEATING A FALSEHOOD.
Stop pretending.
That is how I see it. Obviously you disagree with my opinions, but
again, where is the _lie_?
And that is another lie.
What is?
THAT IT IS A DISAGREEMENT OVER OPINIONS, MORON.
It is over what you imagine it means to be atheist.
We told you. Take notice instead of repeating your dishonesty.
..
YOUR VERY "OPINIONS" AS TO WHAT ATHEISM IS AND THE PLACE IT HAS
IN AN ATHEIST'S LIFE ARE FALSEHOODS.
Please don't shout.
Please don't be such a dishonest,in-your-face hypocrite.
I SHOUTED TO GET IT THROUGH YOUR IGNORANT SKULL.
Was that clear enough even for you?
But it gives you an excuse to ignore what you are told, doesn't it,
you disgusting, dishonest, lying bigot?
Why do you do this?
Do what? I only tried to answer a question about the relations between
atheism and religion as I see them.
By lying about atheists, to atheists. And by lying about the responses
that corrected you.
It is nothing to do with "your opinions" (...)
I'm really beginning to think that your frothing has nothing to do
with my opinions.
What "frothing", disgusting, dishonest, lying Christian hypocrite?
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| User: "Risto Karttunen" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 02:37:54 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
It's a standard and dishonesty fundy tactic: add an "if" that they
have already decided.
Who have decided what?
As you did. Stop pretending.
Pretending what?
" atheism is _close_ to religion; they occupy quite the same place in
If you had said those you would have been lying, twice.
If I say an opinion with which you disagree, I am _lying_?
That in itself is yet another of your lies.
Hmm...I'm lying even when asking something...
(shouting clipped)
That is how I see it. Obviously you disagree with my opinions, but
again, where is the _lie_?
And that is another lie.
What is?
THAT IT IS A DISAGREEMENT OVER OPINIONS, MORON.
Huh? You don't disagree with me after all?
(shouting clipped)
But it gives you an excuse to ignore what you are told, doesn't it,
you disgusting, dishonest, lying bigot?
Those kind of comments go beyond rudeness, they are weird. Amusing in
fact. If I am a _bigot_, then who isn't?
It is nothing to do with "your opinions" (...)
I'm really beginning to think that your frothing has nothing to do
with my opinions.
What "frothing", disgusting, dishonest, lying Christian hypocrite?
You seem to be blind to your style.
--
risto
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 08:10:48 AM |
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On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:52:47 -0400, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On 18 Aug 2005 05:46:39 -0700, "Risto Karttunen" <tipsu@iobox.fi>
wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
I only called him a liar for lying.
What exactly did I _lie_? At least lying is intentional, done against
one's better knowledge.
Every time you turned what I said into things I didn't, by drawing
"conclusions" that didn't follow.
Christians have always had special training in exactly those
rhetorical techniques, as have most religious devotees.
It's when they *don't* do it, that you should be surprised.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 08:08:00 AM |
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On 18 Aug 2005 05:46:39 -0700, "Risto Karttunen" <tipsu@iobox.fi>
wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
I only called him a liar for lying.
What exactly did I _lie_? At least lying is intentional, done against
one's better knowledge.
He's got you there, Christopher!
He quite likely is unaware that he is spouting *****,
and admits as such.
Gotta give him Brownie points for that, surely?
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 09:39:45 AM |
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On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:38:00 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote:
On 18 Aug 2005 05:46:39 -0700, "Risto Karttunen" <tipsu@iobox.fi>
wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
I only called him a liar for lying.
What exactly did I _lie_? At least lying is intentional, done against
one's better knowledge.
He's got you there, Christopher!
He quite likely is unaware that he is spouting *****,
and admits as such.
I don't think so.
The first time he got it wrong could have been an honest mistake.
But he was corrected.
Arguing against the correction is arrogantly rude because it implies
we're not telling the truth about ourselves.
The courteous thing is to admit he isn't a mind-reader, and that we
actually do hold the position we describe.
But once he has been corrected, it is no longer an honest mistake when
he does it again.
As is caricaturing what he has been told, into something else he can
dismiss.
And it _is_ intentional because he now knows better.
Gotta give him Brownie points for that, surely?
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 05:46:53 AM |
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On 18 Aug 2005 00:16:25 -0700, "Risto Karttunen" <tipsu@iobox.fi>
wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
Tough. Because (a) atheists are people who aren't theist, and (b) when
theists push, we push back. That's all.
Yes, that is your reaction, and that's quite much; at least that isn't
indifference. What does that "pushing back" mean in practice?
What do you think, moron?
I dont' really know; otherwise I wouldn't have asked. Perhaps that
"pushing" and "pushing back" is something which is happening in USA,
not here in Finland? Please give me an example now.
Newton theorised that:
"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"
Why are you 'acting' in the first place?
What would you have us do? Let people like you say whatever
you like against us whilst we keep quiet and say nothing?
Let you berate us simply for not sharing your belief? Remember
it is YOUR belief not ours.
Our reaction is only against your action, not against the
belief itself. I am indifferent to you belief as it happens just
as long as you keep it to yourself. You cannot though can
you?
Religion is forever attempting to intrude itself into our lives.
We know the history of religion and its desire to control
peoples lives and the misery it has caused, does cause,
in the middle east. Vigilance is necessary to ensure that never
happens again here.
So yes, every time you try to creep in another way to
intrude on my life I will react. Leave me alone and I will
leave you alone to YOUR belief system. It is as simple as that
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 06:51:50 AM |
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On 18 Aug 2005 00:16:25 -0700, "Risto Karttunen" <tipsu@iobox.fi>
wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
It's not a world-view, moron. Why do you want it to be?
If I ask you: do you have God in your life? and your answer is "no",
then I'd say that you are looking at the world as a place where there
isn't God, or where the concept of God is unnecessary, and probably
there isn't any other spiritual content either. Or is there, for you?
And you'd say wrong, moron.
You are inventing emotionally an prejudicial stupidity.
You're projecting your need for a God in your worldview, onto
everybody else.
In exactly the same way baseball fanatics project their need for their
favourite team onto people who don't watch the game.
And you still can't grasp that the ill-defined word "God" doesn't even
mean the same outside your religion as it does inside it.
Do you look on the world as a place where there isn't a Zeus?
And why the stupid (and dishonest) red herring about spirituality?
Are you one of the morons who equates a nebulous and ill-defined
"spirituality" with his pretend friend?
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| User: "Risto Karttunen" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 07:28:05 AM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote (besides much frothing):
Do you look on the world as a place where there isn't a Zeus?
That depends on the context. If a person comes from ancient Greece to
me and makes that question, I'd say: "Yes, I have a god, too; I call
him God." I should recognize devotion in that person; this would be the
basis for our communication about religious and spiritual matters.
And why the stupid (and dishonest) red herring about spirituality?
Do you think that some spirituality, sacrality, holiness - put this as
you like - is beneficial to a human being?
Are you one of the morons who equates a nebulous and ill-defined
"spirituality" with his pretend friend?
I don't pretend that I have spirituality as my friend. As to the
nebulousness, I mean the content of those "peak" and "plateau"
experiences in Maslow's terminology, for example. Or Rudolf Otto's
"idea of the Holy".
--
risto
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
17 Aug 2005 08:51:50 AM |
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Risto Karttunen wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
Risto Karttunen wrote:
I think it is correct to say that atheism is _close_ to religion; they
occupy quite the same place in the arena of human existence and realize
many same functions - they both offer an identity, a certain
non-negotiable world-view, an answer to some basic questions about
man's lot in the world, existence and death, they may serve as
manifestations of belonging into a group. They compete with each other.
Nope. It is AT MOST a reaction to imposed religion.
I understand that atheism may be nothing more than a _reaction_ against
religion, but that sounds quite pathetic. Perhaps atheism may also be a
more mature attitude.
By definition, atheism is simply that which is not theistic.
An atheist is somebody who isn't theist.
Yes?
Yes.
It has exactly the same place
in our lives as not collecting stamps, not watching baseball or not
believing in Santa Claus.
Certainly not the same place; I cannot believe that the question about
collecting or not collecting stamps is as loaded as the question about
being an atheist.
Certainly it is the same place. If there was a movement to impose
stamp-collecting on the masses, especially in the form of "If you do not
collect stamps, you will suffer for all eternity," you would find a
movement exactly like the atheism movement in reaction that kind of
militant stamp-collecting.
Are you being deliberately stupid?
Really loaded, obviously...
....especially when one does not even know what atheism is.
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, *
* the non-existence of Zeus or Thor - but they *
* have few followers now." Arthur C. Clarke *
****************************************************
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| User: "Risto Karttunen" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
17 Aug 2005 09:12:39 AM |
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DanielSan wrote:
By definition, atheism is simply that which is not theistic.
You are now referring to the grammatical meaning of the prefix "a"
only. However, the question was about the character and role of atheism
in practice, not about that "definition", which doesn't say, for
example, that atheism is a _reaction_.
Certainly not the same place; I cannot believe that the question about
collecting or not collecting stamps is as loaded as the question about
being an atheist.
Certainly it is the same place. If there was a movement to impose
stamp-collecting on the masses, especially in the form of "If you do not
collect stamps, you will suffer for all eternity," you would find a
movement exactly like the atheism movement in reaction that kind of
militant stamp-collecting.
Stamp-collectors would then be like religious zealots, but that is
contrafactual; and since that is not the case and never has been,
stamp-collecting and opinions about it aren't in the same position _at
all_ as religion and reactions against it in human life and society.
Anyway, this is interesting. You seem also to think that atheism is
mainly a reaction against something. How sad.
--
risto
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
17 Aug 2005 01:31:41 PM |
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On 17 Aug 2005 07:12:39 -0700, "Risto Karttunen" <tipsu@iobox.fi>
wrote:
DanielSan wrote:
By definition, atheism is simply that which is not theistic.
You are now referring to the grammatical meaning of the prefix "a"
only. However, the question was about the character and role of atheism
in practice, not about that "definition", which doesn't say, for
example, that atheism is a _reaction_.
You asked and we gave you honest answers? Why are you attacking and
belittling them?
Certainly not the same place; I cannot believe that the question about
collecting or not collecting stamps is as loaded as the question about
being an atheist.
Certainly it is the same place. If there was a movement to impose
stamp-collecting on the masses, especially in the form of "If you do not
collect stamps, you will suffer for all eternity," you would find a
movement exactly like the atheism movement in reaction that kind of
militant stamp-collecting.
Stamp-collectors would then be like religious zealots, but that is
contrafactual; and since that is not the case and never has been,
stamp-collecting and opinions about it aren't in the same position _at
all_ as religion and reactions against it in human life and society.
Why not?
Nobody would give a flying ***** about somebody else's religion if they
didn't push it where it inappropriate, unwanted and un-needed.
Anyway, this is interesting. You seem also to think that atheism is
mainly a reaction against something. How sad.
No, moron. IT IS NOT BEING THEIST.
Why is this so hard for you to grasp?
The world doesn't revolve around the theist's religion, nomatter how
much they think it should.
PEOPLE whether they are atheist or anything else, push back when they
are pushed.
Is this really so hard to understand?
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| User: "Risto Karttunen" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 02:02:03 AM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
Risto Karttunen wrote:
DanielSan wrote:
By definition, atheism is simply that which is not theistic.
You are now referring to the grammatical meaning of the prefix "a"
only. However, the question was about the character and role of atheism
in practice, not about that "definition", which doesn't say, for
example, that atheism is a _reaction_.
You asked and we gave you honest answers? Why are you attacking and
belittling them?
Attacking and belittling? I wouldn't say so. I'm arguing; I disagree,
as above. Surely that's OK here, isn't it?
Stamp-collectors would then be like religious zealots, but that is
contrafactual; and since that is not the case and never has been,
stamp-collecting and opinions about it aren't in the same position _at
all_ as religion and reactions against it in human life and society.
Why not?
Are you really asking: when looking at the world at its whereabouts,
shouldn't we say that stamp-collecting has the same role in human
societies as religion?
Nobody would give a flying ***** about somebody else's religion if they
didn't push it where it inappropriate, unwanted and un-needed.
So your atheism means chiefly a disagreement with some other people's
opinions, where the real substance of those opinions is a secondary
issue? Anyway, could you give an example of those pushings?
Anyway, this is interesting. You seem also to think that atheism is
mainly a reaction against something. How sad.
No, moron. IT IS NOT BEING THEIST.
Yes; "not theist". That's what I meant; a negative definition.
Why is this so hard for you to grasp?
But I do grasp that.
The world doesn't revolve around the theist's religion, nomatter how
much they think it should.
I don't know which "theists" you are talking about now. I don't think
so, for example.
PEOPLE whether they are atheist or anything else, push back when they
are pushed.
A reaction, yes.
Is this really so hard to understand?
But I do understand that.
--
risto
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism a religion? Please prove |
18 Aug 2005 06:43:01 AM |
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On 18 Aug 2005 00:02:03 -0700, "Risto Karttunen" <tipsu@iobox.fi>
wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
Risto Karttunen wrote:
DanielSan wrote:
By definition, atheism is simply that which is not theistic.
You are now referring to the grammatical meaning of the prefix "a"
only. However, the question was about the character and role of atheism
in practice, not about that "definition", which doesn't say, for
example, that atheism is a _reaction_.
What part of "AT MOST it is a reaction to WHAT THEISTS DO TO US"are
you pretending not to understand?
You asked and we gave you honest answers? Why are you attacking and
belittling them?
Attacking and belittling? I wouldn't say so. I'm arguing; I disagree,
as above. Surely that's OK here, isn't it?
Liar.
You attacked the answers we gave you, and you belittled the reasons we
gave you, turning them into strawmen to deride.
You have nothing to argue or disagree with - whether you like it or
not, we are describing ourselves and our position.
What you are doing is just plain rude, as well as stupid.
Even though it is obviously over your head you have to grant that we
actually are as we describe.
Stamp-collectors would then be like religious zealots, but that is
contrafactual; and since that is not the case and never has been,
stamp-collecting and opinions about it aren't in the same position _at
all_ as religion and reactions against it in human life and society.
Why not?
Are you really asking: when looking at the world at its whereabouts,
shouldn't we say that stamp-collecting has the same role in human
societies as religion?
Now you're being deliberately stupid yet again.
We were talking about the irrelevance of the hypothetical object of
your religious belief, not the existence of the religion.
But then you knew that.
The hypothetical object of your god-belief is irrelevant outside tour
religion.
Not believing in it has EXACTLY the same place in OUR LIVES as not
collecting stamps, and not watching baseball does BECAUSE THOSE ARE
ALL THINGS SOME OTHER PEOPLE DO.
No matter how important it is in their lives.
Unfortunately they and you imagine they should be equally important to
everybody else. But all we see is them.
Don't even try to understand this if it's too difficult for you.
But arguing against this is sheer nastiness because it's true.
Was this clear enough even for you?
Nobody would give a flying ***** about somebody else's religion if they
didn't push it where it inappropriate, unwanted and un-needed.
So your atheism means chiefly a disagreement with some other people's
opinions, where the real substance of those opinions is a secondary
issue?
Where did I say anything about that, liar?
If you can't be honest and acknowledge the fact that all atheism is,
is not being theist. One doesn't derive a worldview from it - in fact
deities are only in it as "things theists believe".
The only time we're even aware we're atheists, is when theists rub
their religion in our faces, IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY PEOPLE WHO DON'T
WATCH BASEBALL AREN'T EVEN AWARE OF THAT MOST OF THE TIME.
Or when like you they nastily try to "prove" we're not telling the
truth about ourselves, lie about us as you do, etc.
You asked. We told you. And if you don't like it, tough. Live with it
instead of lying about us.
Anyway, could you give an example of those pushings?
Creationism, evangelism, oaths, pledges, discrimination against
atheists, etc.
Anyway, this is interesting. You seem also to think that atheism is
mainly a reaction against something. How sad.
You left out AT MOST, liar.
The only thing that is sad is your arrogant sneering at your own lie.
No, moron. IT IS NOT BEING THEIST.
Yes; "not theist". That's what I meant; a negative definition.
No, moron. Learn to read for comprehension.
The a- prefix shows the simple demographic absence of the property.
Not the negation.
It is merely a useful label showing that we aren't something THAT IS
IRRELEVANT ANYWAY, and only has any significance in the specific
context of the absent property - just lie asymmetric, apolitical and a
whole slew of other a-words.
It's only a problem for sociopathic theists, who
1. can't live and let live,
2. "define" us according to premises that don't even apply,
3. invent positions we don't have and
4. denigrate us for them
In short, nasty people like yourself.
Why is this so hard for you to grasp?
But I do grasp that.
If you did you wouldn't have invented your misrepresentations.
The world doesn't revolve around the theist's religion, nomatter how
much they think it should.
I don't know which "theists" you are talking about now. I don't think
so, for example.
Assholes like you - who can't grasp what atheism is and what it isn't.
PEOPLE whether they are atheist or anything else, push back when they
are pushed.
A reaction, yes.
AT MOST, liar.
BUT THAT IS NOT ATHEISM PER SE - just the natural human reaction to
assholes like you.
Once again, push people and they push back.
Learn to live and let live and you won't be treated like the
bigoted,nasty liar you show yourself to be.
Is this really so hard to understand?
But I do understand that.
Stop lying.
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