| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"mike3" |
| Date: |
16 Apr 2007 09:49:22 PM |
| Object: |
Atheism and Anarchy |
Hi.
Do a significant propotion of atheists (compared to religious groups)
tend to support anarchy? Atheism goes one step -- no God. Anarchy goes
yet another -- no government. Each one involves a loss of rules or
formulas on which one's life must be held to, and if people yearn for
"freedom" from rules, then it would make sense that people would slip
to atheism or if they already have, then to anarchy (in addition to
atheism), or vice versa.
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| User: "Toby A Inkster" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Anarchy |
17 Apr 2007 06:32:40 AM |
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mike3 wrote:
So, no government.
You are oversimplifying things.
Anarchists do not believe there *should* be a government -- but this does
not mean that they do not recognise the existing government.
--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/
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| User: "mike3" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Anarchy |
17 Apr 2007 04:52:30 PM |
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On Apr 17, 5:32 am, Toby A Inkster <usenet200...@tobyinkster.co.uk>
wrote:
mike3 wrote:
So, no government.
You are oversimplifying things.
Anarchists do not believe there *should* be a government -- but this does
not mean that they do not recognise the existing government.
That's what I meant, maybe with too few words.
--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCShttp://tobyinkster.co.uk/
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Anarchy |
17 Apr 2007 07:53:55 AM |
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On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:49:22 -0700, mike3 wrote:
Hi.
Do a significant propotion of atheists (compared to religious groups) tend
to support anarchy? Atheism goes one step -- no God. Anarchy goes yet
another -- no government. Each one involves a loss of rules or formulas on
which one's life must be held to, and if people yearn for "freedom" from
rules, then it would make sense that people would slip to atheism or if
they already have, then to anarchy (in addition to atheism), or vice
versa.
It seems that on the continuum between strong authoritarianism on one
extreme, and personal liberties on the other, atheists are, on the whole,
more toward the personal liberties end of the spectrum than many
religionists. Of course, religious fundamentalism strongly embraces
authoritarianism. Valuing civil liberties, however, is not the same as
anarchy. I think most people recognize that people need some sort of
externally imposed order to reach cooperative goals.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
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| User: "Gail Futoran" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Anarchy |
17 Apr 2007 01:31:00 PM |
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[ngs trimmed]
"mike3" <mike4ty4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1176778162.647597.219990@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Hi.
Do a significant propotion of atheists (compared to religious
groups)
tend to support anarchy? Atheism goes one step -- no God.
I doubt you'd find much consensus among
atheists on preference for government.
Anarchy goes
yet another -- no government.
Surface similarity but no meaningful connection.
Each one involves a loss of rules
Not true. Atheism simply means a lack
of belief in god(s). Humans take their
rules from a lot of sources. Even the
most rabid -- sorry, devoted -- theist
follows social and cultural rules which
are separate from although not necessarily
always inconsistent with religion.
or
formulas on which one's life must be held to,
Ah - no. Atheism doesn't have anything to
say about rules for life. Atheism simply
means without a belief in god(s).
and if people yearn for
"freedom" from rules, then it would make sense that people would
slip
to atheism or if they already have, then to anarchy (in addition to
atheism), or vice versa.
Not really. Such people could just make up
a religion that fits their desires. Well, heck,
it happens all the time, doesn't it? If/when
anarchy arises, I'll bet dollars to donuts it'll
be through religion.
Gail
aa#2247
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| User: "Lisbeth Andersson" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Anarchy |
17 Apr 2007 05:47:16 AM |
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mike3 <mike4ty4@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1176778162.647597.219990@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
Hi.
Do a significant propotion of atheists (compared to religious
groups) tend to support anarchy? Atheism goes one step -- no God.
Anarchy goes yet another -- no government. Each one involves a
loss of rules or formulas on which one's life must be held to,
and if people yearn for "freedom" from rules, then it would make
sense that people would slip to atheism or if they already have,
then to anarchy (in addition to atheism), or vice versa.
If that idea has any merit it should be possible to see some
differences in the political systems of USofA and Euroupe. The US
is mostly a religious country (in practice, even if your
constitution has this stuff about goverment keeping out of
religion), and the fact that one member of your senate(?)/congress
(?) is an atheist causes headlines. Europe on the other hand is a
godless place (unfortunately that is an exaggeration) where
politicians's religion mostly is regarded as irrelevant, I think
the Swedish prime minister is an atheist, but I'm not really sure.
Also church attendance in Europe has declined steadily during the
last century, and the members of the Swedish church (recently
separated from the state) are leaving that church in record numbers
since the cost of being a member started to show up on the tax
forms.
If your idea is correct we expect to see a support for a strong
government in the US and a lot less so in Europe, and in Europe we
should also see a lesser support over time.
In Europe the inhabitants are busy adding an extra layer of
government to their lives, the European Union, which has gotten
several new members during the last decades, and several countries
are doing their very best to join.
The US, well I really should leave that for somebody else to
describe, but my impression is that the ideal is still that the
government should stay out of the citicens business as much as
possible.
You could also make a study of strength of government versus number
of religious practitioners.
I think your idea goes back to the drawing board.
Lisbeth.
----
The day I don't learn anything new is the day I die.
*What we know is not nearly as interesting as *how we know it.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Anarchy |
17 Apr 2007 06:42:11 AM |
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On 17 Apr 2007 10:47:16 GMT, Lisbeth Andersson <lisand@bredband.net>
wrote:
mike3 <mike4ty4@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1176778162.647597.219990@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
Hi.
Do a significant propotion of atheists (compared to religious
groups) tend to support anarchy? Atheism goes one step -- no God.
Anarchy goes yet another -- no government. Each one involves a
loss of rules or formulas on which one's life must be held to,
and if people yearn for "freedom" from rules, then it would make
sense that people would slip to atheism or if they already have,
then to anarchy (in addition to atheism), or vice versa.
If that idea has any merit it should be possible to see some
differences in the political systems of USofA and Euroupe. The US
is mostly a religious country (in practice, even if your
constitution has this stuff about goverment keeping out of
religion), and the fact that one member of your senate(?)/congress
(?) is an atheist causes headlines. Europe on the other hand is a
godless place (unfortunately that is an exaggeration) where
politicians's religion mostly is regarded as irrelevant, I think
the Swedish prime minister is an atheist, but I'm not really sure.
Also church attendance in Europe has declined steadily during the
last century, and the members of the Swedish church (recently
separated from the state) are leaving that church in record numbers
since the cost of being a member started to show up on the tax
forms.
It knows this. "Mike3" asks stupid loaded questions demanding
"explanations" for a denigrating straw man.
If your idea is correct we expect to see a support for a strong
government in the US and a lot less so in Europe, and in Europe we
should also see a lesser support over time.
In Europe the inhabitants are busy adding an extra layer of
government to their lives, the European Union, which has gotten
several new members during the last decades, and several countries
are doing their very best to join.
The US, well I really should leave that for somebody else to
describe, but my impression is that the ideal is still that the
government should stay out of the citicens business as much as
possible.
You could also make a study of strength of government versus number
of religious practitioners.
I think your idea goes back to the drawing board.
Lisbeth.
----
The day I don't learn anything new is the day I die.
*What we know is not nearly as interesting as *how we know it.
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| User: "Lisbeth Andersson" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Anarchy |
17 Apr 2007 09:11:29 AM |
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Christopher A.Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
news:phc923ddfdkn4nr135itt5f99sknl3rh0k@4ax.com:
It knows this. "Mike3" asks stupid loaded questions demanding
"explanations" for a denigrating straw man.
I'm having a hard time keeping up with all the trolls that posts here.
Actually, I'm not convinced that it is worth the trouble to keep track
of them. Mike3 has for some reason or another slipped my notice, and I
suspect that if you had not drawn my attention to him, I would not
have remembered him, or my answer to him, in another day. (Don't take
that as any criticism, it's not meant to be.)
I do know that feeding the trolls is a bad habit, but sometimes it is
fun, and sometimes I need to practice my English. Maybe my next new
years resolution should be to try to get rid of the habit ...... hmmm
.... then again, probably not, sometimes they are so cute when they
wriggle.
Lisbeth.
----
The day I don't learn anything new is the day I die.
*What we know is not nearly as interesting as *how we know it.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Anarchy |
17 Apr 2007 10:38:48 AM |
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On 17 Apr 2007 14:11:29 GMT, Lisbeth Andersson <lisand@bredband.net>
wrote:
Christopher A.Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
news:phc923ddfdkn4nr135itt5f99sknl3rh0k@4ax.com:
It knows this. "Mike3" asks stupid loaded questions demanding
"explanations" for a denigrating straw man.
I'm having a hard time keeping up with all the trolls that posts here.
Actually, I'm not convinced that it is worth the trouble to keep track
of them. Mike3 has for some reason or another slipped my notice, and I
suspect that if you had not drawn my attention to him, I would not
have remembered him, or my answer to him, in another day. (Don't take
that as any criticism, it's not meant to be.)
He's asked several other similarly loaded questions recently based on
equallyinvalid presumptions.
I do know that feeding the trolls is a bad habit, but sometimes it is
fun, and sometimes I need to practice my English. Maybe my next new
years resolution should be to try to get rid of the habit ...... hmmm
... then again, probably not, sometimes they are so cute when they
wriggle.
I just tell them where to go.
Lisbeth.
----
The day I don't learn anything new is the day I die.
*What we know is not nearly as interesting as *how we know it.
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| User: "Lisbeth Andersson" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Anarchy |
17 Apr 2007 01:18:24 PM |
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Christopher A.Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
news:aeq923l29r4hihnps83oqqr9jv6gdad5bb@4ax.com:
On 17 Apr 2007 14:11:29 GMT, Lisbeth Andersson
<lisand@bredband.net> wrote:
Christopher A.Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
news:phc923ddfdkn4nr135itt5f99sknl3rh0k@4ax.com:
It knows this. "Mike3" asks stupid loaded questions demanding
"explanations" for a denigrating straw man.
I'm having a hard time keeping up with all the trolls that posts
here. Actually, I'm not convinced that it is worth the trouble to
keep track of them. Mike3 has for some reason or another slipped
my notice, and I suspect that if you had not drawn my attention
to him, I would not have remembered him, or my answer to him, in
another day. (Don't take that as any criticism, it's not meant to
be.)
He's asked several other similarly loaded questions recently
based on equallyinvalid presumptions.
Trolls usually do that. I don't read all posts to a.a (I'm trying to
have a life sometimes) and some trolls manages to escape my notice.
Some posters get recognized as probable troll or totally clueless
(thats not XOR) and I'm not, usually, going to spend much effort to
decide which, if people like that don't have enough personality to be
memorable they'll just have to wait until I decide to notice them.
I do know that feeding the trolls is a bad habit, but sometimes
it is fun, and sometimes I need to practice my English. Maybe my
next new years resolution should be to try to get rid of the
habit ...... hmmm ... then again, probably not, sometimes they
are so cute when they wriggle.
I just tell them where to go.
I've noticed that. You are definitely more memorable than an average
troll. ;-)
Lisbeth.
----
The day I don't learn anything new is the day I die.
*What we know is not nearly as interesting as *how we know it.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Anarchy |
16 Apr 2007 11:02:24 PM |
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mike3 wrote:
Hi.
Do a significant propotion of atheists (compared to religious groups)
tend to support anarchy?
No. We support a body of laws.
Atheism goes one step -- no God. Anarchy goes
yet another -- no government. Each one involves a loss of rules or
formulas on which one's life must be held to, and if people yearn for
"freedom" from rules, then it would make sense that people would slip
to atheism or if they already have, then to anarchy (in addition to
atheism), or vice versa.
The problem with anarchy is that there is no method of support for if
someone wrongs you. Your family is a grouping of related people that
you care about.
If someone kills a member of your family, then himself, what recourse do
you have in getting closure beyond killing a member of that person's
family? With anarchy comes chaos.
And I believe that a majority of atheists do not support chaos.
--
******************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*----------------------------------------------------*
* "In every country and every age, the priest had *
* been hostile to Liberty." --Thomas Jefferson *
******************************************************
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Anarchy |
17 Apr 2007 07:54:23 AM |
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In alt.atheism On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:02:24 -0800, DanielSan
<daniel-san@myrealbox.com> let us all know that:
mike3 wrote:
Hi.
Do a significant propotion of atheists (compared to religious groups)
tend to support anarchy?
No. We support a body of laws.
Yet there can be laws in anarchy.
Atheism goes one step -- no God. Anarchy goes
yet another -- no government. Each one involves a loss of rules or
formulas on which one's life must be held to, and if people yearn for
"freedom" from rules, then it would make sense that people would slip
to atheism or if they already have, then to anarchy (in addition to
atheism), or vice versa.
The problem with anarchy is that there is no method of support for if
someone wrongs you.
Ummm...yeah, there is. Private insurance, for example.
Guarantors.
Your family is a grouping of related people that
you care about.
If someone kills a member of your family, then himself, what recourse do
you have in getting closure beyond killing a member of that person's
family? With anarchy comes chaos.
And I believe that a majority of atheists do not support chaos.
Anarchy != chaos. There is chaos in Iraq, yet there is a
government. There was chaos in New Orleans after Katrina, yet there
were several levels of government there (city, parish, state, and
federal).
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Anarchy |
17 Apr 2007 09:41:24 AM |
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Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:02:24 -0800, DanielSan
<daniel-san@myrealbox.com> let us all know that:
mike3 wrote:
Hi.
Do a significant propotion of atheists (compared to religious groups)
tend to support anarchy?
No. We support a body of laws.
Yet there can be laws in anarchy.
I believe that this person was asking about a lawless society (a bit
different from what an anarchist is suggesting).
Atheism goes one step -- no God. Anarchy goes
yet another -- no government. Each one involves a loss of rules or
formulas on which one's life must be held to, and if people yearn for
"freedom" from rules, then it would make sense that people would slip
to atheism or if they already have, then to anarchy (in addition to
atheism), or vice versa.
The problem with anarchy is that there is no method of support for if
someone wrongs you.
Ummm...yeah, there is. Private insurance, for example.
Guarantors.
Well, in the anarchy that I believe mike3 is referring.
Your family is a grouping of related people that
you care about.
If someone kills a member of your family, then himself, what recourse do
you have in getting closure beyond killing a member of that person's
family? With anarchy comes chaos.
And I believe that a majority of atheists do not support chaos.
Anarchy != chaos.
Right, but I believe mike3 believes that.
There is chaos in Iraq, yet there is a
government. There was chaos in New Orleans after Katrina, yet there
were several levels of government there (city, parish, state, and
federal).
Of course, but I don't expect him to be that deep. :-)
It's called pandering. ;-)
--
******************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*----------------------------------------------------*
* "In every country and every age, the priest had *
* been hostile to Liberty." --Thomas Jefferson *
******************************************************
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Anarchy |
17 Apr 2007 07:28:22 AM |
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mike3 wrote:
Hi.
Do a significant propotion of atheists (compared to religious groups)
tend to support anarchy? Atheism goes one step -- no God. Anarchy goes
yet another -- no government. Each one involves a loss of rules or
formulas on which one's life must be held to, and if people yearn for
"freedom" from rules, then it would make sense that people would slip
to atheism or if they already have, then to anarchy (in addition to
atheism), or vice versa.
No.
Next question.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor http://www.secularity.com/ktayloraz
A.A #1143 http://azhotops.blogspot.com/
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Anarchy |
16 Apr 2007 10:02:44 PM |
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mike3 wrote:
Hi.
Do a significant propotion of atheists (compared to religious groups)
tend to support anarchy? Atheism goes one step -- no God. Anarchy goes
yet another -- no government. Each one involves a loss of rules or
formulas on which one's life must be held to, and if people yearn for
"freedom" from rules, then it would make sense that people would slip
to atheism or if they already have, then to anarchy (in addition to
atheism), or vice versa.
Conscious atheism is about giving up fantasy beliefs.
People who give up fantasy beliefs tend to be very practical
about many things, including government. Atheists make very
good citizens in democratically governed societies, but
perhaps, poor followers of royalty claiming a divine right
to rule.
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Anarchy |
17 Apr 2007 11:03:02 AM |
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mike3 wrote:
Hi.
Do a significant propotion of atheists (compared to religious groups)
tend to support anarchy? Atheism goes one step -- no God. Anarchy goes
yet another -- no government. Each one involves a loss of rules or
formulas on which one's life must be held to, and if people yearn for
"freedom" from rules, then it would make sense that people would slip
to atheism or if they already have, then to anarchy (in addition to
atheism), or vice versa.
Do a significant number of theists think that God's law is supreme thus
rendering government superfluous and therefore something to be opposed?
--
Geoff O'Furman
Head Coach, Varsity Hockey
University of Ediacara
AA #22??
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