| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Greywolf" |
| Date: |
25 Oct 2006 01:21:56 AM |
| Object: |
Atheism and 'Belief' |
I just saw a post where a theist equated the atheist's 'non-belief' with
that of a theist's 'belief' in 'God'. How so? Well they're both 'beliefs',
aren't they?
Nice try.
When a Jesus addict thinks about his imaginary God-Man, he visualizes a
1st-century Jew radiating supernatural 'goodness', perhaps. It's a
'something'. He or she is mentally embracing a 'somebody'. What is the
atheist mentally visualizing or 'embracing'? Why *nothing*. There is
nothing, *anything* that could be construed as we atheists having 'faith' in
or 'belief' in. There is nothing but complete nothing-ness. So the attempt
by the theist to equate 'disbelief' (or the lack of *any* evidence to
support the theist position) with a 'belief' isn't quite right The two
'beliefs' are two *different* types of belief. It's the *absence* of such
views that distinguishes the 'believer' and person of 'faith' from its exact
opposite. Apples and Oranges are both 'fruit', but they are not same exact
kind of fruit, are they?
Okay Greywolf, it's time for nappy-poo. You're sounding even goofier than
usual.
Grrrr!
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| User: "Hatter" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and 'Belief' |
25 Oct 2006 03:50:42 PM |
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Greywolf wrote:
I just saw a post where a theist equated the atheist's 'non-belief' with
that of a theist's 'belief' in 'God'. How so? Well they're both 'beliefs',
aren't they?
Nice try.
They are equal from a very distant viewpoint...each a meme or paradigm.
Each meme or paradigm is subjective, it isn't stone or wood, or fire,
or gravity, it is subjective.
The issue when viewing outside memes is one of scrutiny, for
inconsistencies The Deist, undefinded God holds up to reasonable
scrutiny as a lack of characteristics, or at least vauguely defined
characteristics...there are no inconsistencies. If you compare that of
non-belief...looks around and does not see anything that is God...again
there are no inconsistencies and the meme holds water. Compare that to
even the most basic Christian Meme, "God had to have himself sacfrifice
himself to himself to save others from the wrath of himself" the meme
is already inconsistent with even a cursorial investigation of
reasoning..and thus invalid, and not equal to the other two.
Hatter
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and 'Belief' |
25 Oct 2006 05:29:10 PM |
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On 25 Oct 2006 13:50:42 -0700, "Hatter" <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote:
They are equal from a very distant viewpoint...each a meme or paradigm.
Each meme or paradigm is subjective, it isn't stone or wood, or fire,
or gravity, it is subjective.
So the fact that you don't believe in Mithras is a meme? Or lack of
one?
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can
solve them."
-Isaac Asimov
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Hatter" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and 'Belief' |
26 Oct 2006 07:24:57 AM |
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Al Klein wrote:
On 25 Oct 2006 13:50:42 -0700, "Hatter" <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote:
They are equal from a very distant viewpoint...each a meme or paradigm.
Each meme or paradigm is subjective, it isn't stone or wood, or fire,
or gravity, it is subjective.
So the fact that you don't believe in Mithras is a meme? Or lack of
one?
--
Yes, anyone introduced to the fictional character of Mitras, Just like
the fictional character of Jesus, and reject it being 'real' and have
to defend that rejection, or somehow pass the rejection along is a
meme. Every concept that ends of being communicated is a meme. The
question is, when you encounter a new meme, lets say "This house is
haunted," is the meme: (1)internaly consistent (2)internally
reasonable(logical motives/outcomes) (3)Matching Observation
"This house is haunted"
(1) There really isn't enough detail in the statement to fail this test
(2) There isn't enough detail for this test to fail
(3) Do I see objects moving by themselves? Do I see free floating
apparitions? Are there credible accounts from reliable witnesses for
the same verfied by photograhic evidence above reproach? No
supernatural claim ever holds up.
Therefore I reject the "This Haunted meme" When hearing people dicuss
that it is, I may attempt to spread my counter meme
Fundamentalism is particular as a meme, as it fails all three tests.
Hatter
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and 'Belief' |
26 Oct 2006 11:59:38 AM |
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On 26 Oct 2006 05:24:57 -0700, "Hatter" <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote:
Al Klein wrote:
On 25 Oct 2006 13:50:42 -0700, "Hatter" <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote:
They are equal from a very distant viewpoint...each a meme or paradigm.
Each meme or paradigm is subjective, it isn't stone or wood, or fire,
or gravity, it is subjective.
So the fact that you don't believe in Mithras is a meme? Or lack of
one?
--
Yes, anyone introduced to the fictional character of Mitras, Just like
the fictional character of Jesus, and reject it being 'real' and have
to defend that rejection, or somehow pass the rejection along is a
meme. Every concept that ends of being communicated is a meme. The
question is, when you encounter a new meme, lets say "This house is
haunted," is the meme: (1)internaly consistent (2)internally
reasonable(logical motives/outcomes) (3)Matching Observation
"This house is haunted"
(1) There really isn't enough detail in the statement to fail this test
Sure there is - "haunted" is a nonsense concept that sane children
outgrow.
(2) There isn't enough detail for this test to fail
Nothing can be "haunted" (or kuzigirked or mizzlefifted), so that
house can't be either.
Therefore I reject the "This Haunted meme"
I'm glad. I'd hate to see you being afraid of being woofted by
slarks.
Fundamentalism is particular as a meme, as it fails all three tests.
Religious fundamentalism, yes - since the god concept fails the test
of existence.
Fundamentalism, per se (say economic fundamentalism) doesn't
inherently fail any test.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"The United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"
- Treaty of Tripoli, 1797, ratified by Congress
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and 'Belief' |
25 Oct 2006 09:31:11 PM |
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On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 18:29:10 -0400, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
- Refer: <q8pvj250ejjfo94r3acrhibocp256jphhv@4ax.com>
On 25 Oct 2006 13:50:42 -0700, "Hatter" <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote:
They are equal from a very distant viewpoint...each a meme or paradigm.
Each meme or paradigm is subjective, it isn't stone or wood, or fire,
or gravity, it is subjective.
So the fact that you don't believe in Mithras is a meme? Or lack of
one?
What about his lack of belief in Jqpdwlkjdw?
Everyone would have that meme!
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and 'Belief' |
26 Oct 2006 11:53:29 AM |
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On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:01:11 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 18:29:10 -0400, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:
- Refer: <q8pvj250ejjfo94r3acrhibocp256jphhv@4ax.com>
On 25 Oct 2006 13:50:42 -0700, "Hatter" <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote:
They are equal from a very distant viewpoint...each a meme or paradigm.
Each meme or paradigm is subjective, it isn't stone or wood, or fire,
or gravity, it is subjective.
So the fact that you don't believe in Mithras is a meme? Or lack of
one?
What about his lack of belief in Jqpdwlkjdw?
Everyone would have that meme!
Only you heathen non-believers. We Jqpdwlkjdw worshippers wouldn't be
caught dead with that meme.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
There are three kinds of men:
The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence.
- (Will Rogers)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and 'Belief' |
25 Oct 2006 04:11:50 AM |
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On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 01:21:56 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <12ju0kcjkpp8ue2@corp.supernews.com>
I just saw a post where a theist equated the atheist's 'non-belief' with
that of a theist's 'belief' in 'God'. How so? Well they're both 'beliefs',
aren't they?
It's an artefact of their legendary black-and-white mindset.
Quite whether it is causal or symptomatic is another question.
Nice try.
When a Jesus addict thinks about his imaginary God-Man, he visualizes a
1st-century Jew radiating supernatural 'goodness', perhaps. It's a
'something'. He or she is mentally embracing a 'somebody'. What is the
atheist mentally visualizing or 'embracing'? Why *nothing*. There is
nothing, *anything* that could be construed as we atheists having 'faith' in
or 'belief' in. There is nothing but complete nothing-ness. So the attempt
by the theist to equate 'disbelief' (or the lack of *any* evidence to
support the theist position) with a 'belief' isn't quite right The two
'beliefs' are two *different* types of belief. It's the *absence* of such
views that distinguishes the 'believer' and person of 'faith' from its exact
opposite. Apples and Oranges are both 'fruit', but they are not same exact
kind of fruit, are they?
Okay Greywolf, it's time for nappy-poo. You're sounding even goofier than
usual.
Grrrr!
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and 'Belief' |
25 Oct 2006 03:19:44 AM |
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On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 01:21:56 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
I just saw a post where a theist equated the atheist's 'non-belief' with
that of a theist's 'belief' in 'God'. How so? Well they're both 'beliefs',
aren't they?
Nice try.
When a Jesus addict thinks about his imaginary God-Man, he visualizes a
1st-century Jew radiating supernatural 'goodness', perhaps. It's a
'something'. He or she is mentally embracing a 'somebody'. What is the
atheist mentally visualizing or 'embracing'? Why *nothing*. There is
nothing, *anything* that could be construed as we atheists having 'faith' in
or 'belief' in. There is nothing but complete nothing-ness. So the attempt
by the theist to equate 'disbelief' (or the lack of *any* evidence to
support the theist position) with a 'belief' isn't quite right The two
'beliefs' are two *different* types of belief.
Ah but what about Pastor Frank's very serious thesis that we worship
and believe in 'no belief'. The "I do not believe god god"?
Get round that one :-)
It's the *absence* of such
views that distinguishes the 'believer' and person of 'faith' from its exact
opposite. Apples and Oranges are both 'fruit', but they are not same exact
kind of fruit, are they?
Okay Greywolf, it's time for nappy-poo. You're sounding even goofier than
usual.
It is all relative. Just compare your goofiness with Pastor Frank and
you will feel better. Sometimes I feel rather stupid but then, using
Duke as my role model, I feel quite brilliant again :-)
These people do have their uses after all.
--
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and 'Belief' |
25 Oct 2006 03:41:32 PM |
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On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:19:44 +0100, Les Hellawell
<myrubbishbin@notatleswell.freeuk.net> wrote:
Ah but what about Pastor Frank's very serious thesis that we worship
and believe in 'no belief'.
Oh, like Frankie's belief in his no-belief of Zeus? He has another
god than his god - the no-god. Oops.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Every sensible man, every honest man, must hold the christian sect in horror. 'But what
shall we substitute in its place?' you say. What? A ferocious animal has sucked the
blood of my relatives. I tell you to rid yourselves of this beast and you ask me what
you shall put in its place?" - Voltaire
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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