| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"StMichael" |
| Date: |
24 Mar 2007 09:13:29 PM |
| Object: |
Atheism and its philosophical problems |
Atheism lacks any real metaphysical justification for its claims.
Likewise, certain problematic conclusions follow:
1) With a lack of an objective basis for reality comes a lack of an
objective basis for truth. As such, any statements about reality fail
and atheism becomes purely subjective/nihilistic (ultimately).
2) If one embraces a pure materialism (which atheism ostensibly does,
in general), all logical thought becomes utterly senseless and
useless. In this event, all natural science or possibility of
knowledge becomes impossible. Again, one is led into the realm of a
purely subjective/nihilistic thought (or, more properly, a denial of
the possibility of thought).
3) A lack of concrete basis in reality for good or evil actions leads
to a totally subjective morality determined one of three ways: either
by the state (leading to a totalitarian model or some version of
morality following on the social zeitgeist), or by the individual
(which means everything is moral and nothing is moral), or not at all
(moral nihilism). Eventually, it would likewise seem the third option
is inevitable one way or another.
Tell me what you think here.
.
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| User: "Mark Earnest" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
26 Mar 2007 06:28:05 PM |
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"Steve O" <spamhere@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:56on8sF29vhm8U1@mid.individual.net...
"Mark Earnest" <gmearnest@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:130e6iqh5ds2b44@corp.supernews.com...
"J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174834673.211732.140300@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
Mark Earnest wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174800234.308280.208780@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Mark Earnest wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174798751.722802.26920@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
ok, I'll bite....where do I look?
Just meet new people. He will be one in five of them. Young,
old,
male,
female.
He is the one whom you will sense creating you from the inside as
he
talks
to you.
He is the one that knows too much to be a human being.
I have met a LOT of new people in my lifetime, and have not noticed
these traits in any of them.
Then you just weren't looking for those traits. Maybe now that you
are
aware that they might indeed be there, you will be naturally looking
for
them.
Perhaps I have a more rational explanation for the traits that you
consider to indicate a god.
And then again, perhaps not.
how?
With a pure heart. That means, take the attitude of a child.
I have no idea what that means.
That means, think in simple terms, don't overcomplicate things.
That is what I do! so I don't go off assuming there must be some
hidden supernatural explanation for everything. I take things as they
are.
Supernaturalness is often the simplest way things can be.
Like flying angels.
and does this looking require
that I abandon my established methods of ***** detection?
No, because there will be some trying to impersonate God.
Ok....but let me tell you right now that my ***** detector is
reading pretty high as a result of what you just said....
Then all I can ask is that you not say that is what it is until you
know.
I'm pretty sure that you are serving up pure *****...
Then you have decided before examining the evidence...
You have evidence of flying angels?
I'd like to see it.
The angels made a impression of themselves on my soul, and I see that they
do have wings, and know that wings are for flying.
Just wait a while, and real angels with wings will be flying through our
skies.
.
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| User: "Brian E. Clark" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
26 Mar 2007 09:04:26 PM |
|
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In article <130glnt152t2i68@corp.supernews.com>, Mark
Earnest said...
You have evidence of flying angels?
I'd like to see it.
The angels made a impression of themselves on my soul, and I see that they
do have wings, and know that wings are for flying.
Sheesh. And you have the temerity to use the word
"earnest" in your name.
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
.
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
26 Mar 2007 08:27:51 PM |
|
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"Brian E. Clark" <reply@newsgroup.only.please> wrote in message
news:MPG.207245b1475a508698a3d4@newsgroups.comcast.net...
In article <130glnt152t2i68@corp.supernews.com>, Mark
Earnest said...
You have evidence of flying angels?
I'd like to see it.
The angels made a impression of themselves on my soul, and I see that
they
do have wings, and know that wings are for flying.
Sheesh. And you have the temerity to use the word
"earnest" in your name.
He is earnestly bonkers.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
When fascism comes to America, it will be
wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross -
Sinclair Lewis
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
27 Mar 2007 02:11:33 PM |
|
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"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:aqidndGfuP6J7pXbnZ2dnUVZ_revnZ2d@comcast.com...
"Brian E. Clark" <reply@newsgroup.only.please> wrote in message
news:MPG.207245b1475a508698a3d4@newsgroups.comcast.net...
In article <130glnt152t2i68@corp.supernews.com>, Mark
Earnest said...
You have evidence of flying angels?
I'd like to see it.
The angels made a impression of themselves on my soul, and I see that
they
do have wings, and know that wings are for flying.
Sheesh. And you have the temerity to use the word
"earnest" in your name.
He is earnestly bonkers.
Damnit, you beat me to it ;)
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
25 Mar 2007 08:46:11 PM |
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Mark Earnest wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174834673.211732.140300@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
Perhaps I have a more rational explanation for the traits that you
consider to indicate a god.
And then again, perhaps not.
I notice you never replied to my explanation about the 3 smoking
girls....it sounds to me like a very simple, rational, and likely
explanation. No magic required!
Supernaturalness is often the simplest way things can be.
Like flying angels.
It's actually much more complicated. For such things to exist, there
must be a way to store and process information without physical
means...how would this work? Can you explain it?
A more likely explation is that Mark is right, and you are suffering
from mental illness. Delusions are quite common, the human mind is
prone to such problems.
I'm pretty sure that you are serving up pure *****...
Then you have decided before examining the evidence...
Not really. I have yet to see anything that I would consider to be
evidence, nor any explanation of how what you suggest would work.
Jim
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| User: "Martin Phipps" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
26 Mar 2007 06:11:23 AM |
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On Mar 26, 8:57 am, "Mark Earnest" <gmearn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnos...@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174834673.211732.140300@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
Mark Earnest wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnos...@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174800234.308280.208780@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Mark Earnest wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnos...@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174798751.722802.26920@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
ok, I'll bite....where do I look?
Just meet new people. He will be one in five of them. Young, old,
male,
female.
He is the one whom you will sense creating you from the inside as he
talks
to you.
He is the one that knows too much to be a human being.
I have met a LOT of new people in my lifetime, and have not noticed
these traits in any of them.
Then you just weren't looking for those traits. Maybe now that you are
aware that they might indeed be there, you will be naturally looking for
them.
Perhaps I have a more rational explanation for the traits that you
consider to indicate a god.
And then again, perhaps not.
how?
With a pure heart. That means, take the attitude of a child.
I have no idea what that means.
That means, think in simple terms, don't overcomplicate things.
That is what I do! so I don't go off assuming there must be some
hidden supernatural explanation for everything. I take things as they
are.
Supernaturalness is often the simplest way things can be.
Like flying angels.
and does this looking require
that I abandon my established methods of ***** detection?
No, because there will be some trying to impersonate God.
Ok....but let me tell you right now that my ***** detector is
reading pretty high as a result of what you just said....
Then all I can ask is that you not say that is what it is until you
know.
I'm pretty sure that you are serving up pure *****...
Then you have decided before examining the evidence...
Your rantings do not constitute evidence.
Martin
.
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| User: "Mark Earnest" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
26 Mar 2007 06:28:59 PM |
|
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"Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174907483.094733.230210@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 26, 8:57 am, "Mark Earnest" <gmearn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnos...@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174834673.211732.140300@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
Mark Earnest wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnos...@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174800234.308280.208780@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Mark Earnest wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnos...@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174798751.722802.26920@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
ok, I'll bite....where do I look?
Just meet new people. He will be one in five of them. Young,
old,
male,
female.
He is the one whom you will sense creating you from the inside
as he
talks
to you.
He is the one that knows too much to be a human being.
I have met a LOT of new people in my lifetime, and have not
noticed
these traits in any of them.
Then you just weren't looking for those traits. Maybe now that you
are
aware that they might indeed be there, you will be naturally looking
for
them.
Perhaps I have a more rational explanation for the traits that you
consider to indicate a god.
And then again, perhaps not.
how?
With a pure heart. That means, take the attitude of a child.
I have no idea what that means.
That means, think in simple terms, don't overcomplicate things.
That is what I do! so I don't go off assuming there must be some
hidden supernatural explanation for everything. I take things as they
are.
Supernaturalness is often the simplest way things can be.
Like flying angels.
and does this looking require
that I abandon my established methods of ***** detection?
No, because there will be some trying to impersonate God.
Ok....but let me tell you right now that my ***** detector is
reading pretty high as a result of what you just said....
Then all I can ask is that you not say that is what it is until you
know.
I'm pretty sure that you are serving up pure *****...
Then you have decided before examining the evidence...
Your rantings do not constitute evidence.
Never know until you check it out. And you have no right to claim there is
no
God if you will not even look to see if there is one or not.
.
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| User: "Martin Phipps" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
26 Mar 2007 08:35:56 PM |
|
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On Mar 27, 7:28 am, "Mark Earnest" <gmearn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Martin Phipps" <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174907483.094733.230210@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 26, 8:57 am, "Mark Earnest" <gmearn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnos...@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174834673.211732.140300@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
Mark Earnest wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnos...@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174800234.308280.208780@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Mark Earnest wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnos...@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174798751.722802.26920@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
ok, I'll bite....where do I look?
Just meet new people. He will be one in five of them. Young,
old,
male,
female.
He is the one whom you will sense creating you from the inside
as he
talks
to you.
He is the one that knows too much to be a human being.
I have met a LOT of new people in my lifetime, and have not
noticed
these traits in any of them.
Then you just weren't looking for those traits. Maybe now that you
are
aware that they might indeed be there, you will be naturally looking
for
them.
Perhaps I have a more rational explanation for the traits that you
consider to indicate a god.
And then again, perhaps not.
how?
With a pure heart. That means, take the attitude of a child.
I have no idea what that means.
That means, think in simple terms, don't overcomplicate things.
That is what I do! so I don't go off assuming there must be some
hidden supernatural explanation for everything. I take things as they
are.
Supernaturalness is often the simplest way things can be.
Like flying angels.
and does this looking require
that I abandon my established methods of ***** detection?
No, because there will be some trying to impersonate God.
Ok....but let me tell you right now that my ***** detector is
reading pretty high as a result of what you just said....
Then all I can ask is that you not say that is what it is until you
know.
I'm pretty sure that you are serving up pure *****...
Then you have decided before examining the evidence...
Your rantings do not constitute evidence.
Never know until you check it out. And you have no right to claim there is
no
God if you will not even look to see if there is one or not.
Which one? Yehweh, Zeus, Apollo or Neptune? Are they in the sky, in
the sea or amongst "one in five people" walking the street? You told
me they weren't "hard to find". How come nobody can see them except
you?
Martin
.
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| User: "Mark Earnest" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
26 Mar 2007 09:28:52 PM |
|
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"Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174959356.023328.236280@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 27, 7:28 am, "Mark Earnest" <gmearn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Martin Phipps" <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174907483.094733.230210@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 26, 8:57 am, "Mark Earnest" <gmearn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnos...@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174834673.211732.140300@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
Mark Earnest wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnos...@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174800234.308280.208780@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Mark Earnest wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnos...@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174798751.722802.26920@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
ok, I'll bite....where do I look?
Just meet new people. He will be one in five of them.
Young,
old,
male,
female.
He is the one whom you will sense creating you from the
inside
as he
talks
to you.
He is the one that knows too much to be a human being.
I have met a LOT of new people in my lifetime, and have not
noticed
these traits in any of them.
Then you just weren't looking for those traits. Maybe now that
you
are
aware that they might indeed be there, you will be naturally
looking
for
them.
Perhaps I have a more rational explanation for the traits that you
consider to indicate a god.
And then again, perhaps not.
how?
With a pure heart. That means, take the attitude of a
child.
I have no idea what that means.
That means, think in simple terms, don't overcomplicate things.
That is what I do! so I don't go off assuming there must be some
hidden supernatural explanation for everything. I take things as
they
are.
Supernaturalness is often the simplest way things can be.
Like flying angels.
and does this looking require
that I abandon my established methods of *****
detection?
No, because there will be some trying to impersonate God.
Ok....but let me tell you right now that my ***** detector
is
reading pretty high as a result of what you just said....
Then all I can ask is that you not say that is what it is until
you
know.
I'm pretty sure that you are serving up pure *****...
Then you have decided before examining the evidence...
Your rantings do not constitute evidence.
Never know until you check it out. And you have no right to claim there
is
no
God if you will not even look to see if there is one or not.
Which one? Yehweh, Zeus, Apollo or Neptune?
Yahweh.
Are they in the sky, in
the sea or amongst "one in five people" walking the street?
Both.
You told
me they weren't "hard to find".
They're not.
How come nobody can see them except
you?
You have to be pure of heart to see God.
.
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| User: "Martin Phipps" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
25 Mar 2007 03:34:25 AM |
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On Mar 25, 1:23 pm, "J Forbes" <jforbnos...@selectric.org> wrote:
Mark Earnest wrote:
With a pure heart. That means, take the attitude of a child.
I have no idea what that means.
It means be an immature idiot.
Martin
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
25 Mar 2007 11:59:43 AM |
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On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 00:17:27 -0600, Mark Earnest wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174798751.722802.26920@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Mark Earnest wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174795484.545661.101280@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I personally am waiting for someone to tell me just what a god is,
and how we could tell whether or not any exist...and no one will
tell me...so I've pretty much given up my search for gods. I leave
the possibility of a god existing open, but put the probability at
zero.
Then you have closed your mind. How can someone show you God if you
already have decided that he is not even there?
My mind is open, I just have given up....I ask and ask, and I ask you
again, and still I get no information.
You can find God in the real world, if you merely look for him. He
looks just like anyone else, except that he has subtle power.
ok, I'll bite....where do I look?
Just meet new people. He will be one in five of them. Young, old, male,
female.
He is the one whom you will sense creating you from the inside as he talks
to you.
He is the one that knows too much to be a human being.
You're describing a mental illness.
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing
it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
- H. L. Mencken
.
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| User: "Martin Phipps" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
25 Mar 2007 03:14:21 AM |
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On Mar 25, 12:40 pm, "Mark Earnest" <gmearn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnos...@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174795484.545661.101280@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Mark Earnest wrote:
"Luna" <lunach...@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message
If I say that your house is infected with fairies and elves, and you
say
you don't believe me, who is making a claim, me or you?
But atheists don't say they don't believe you, they say there is no God.
That is a claim. And I reject your claim.
That depends on the atheist. All one needs to do to be atheist is
reject your claim. Some atheists go further and say that no gods as
defined by theists exist ( or they say that none such gods can
exist). others flat out say no gods of any kind exist.
I personally am waiting for someone to tell me just what a god is, and
how we could tell whether or not any exist...and no one will tell
me...so I've pretty much given up my search for gods. I leave the
possibility of a god existing open, but put the probability at zero.
Then you have closed your mind. How can someone show you God if
you already have decided that he is not even there?
How can you show us God when, by your own admission, it doesn't
exist? If it did exist, you wouldn't believe in it. Do you remember
saying that?
You can find God in the real world, if you merely look for him.
He looks just like anyone else, except that he has subtle power.
How can I find something that doesn't exist?
Martin
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
24 Mar 2007 11:53:13 PM |
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On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 23:40:05 -0600, Mark Earnest wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174795484.545661.101280@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Mark Earnest wrote:
"Luna" <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message
If I say that your house is infected with fairies and elves, and you
say
you don't believe me, who is making a claim, me or you?
But atheists don't say they don't believe you, they say there is no God.
That is a claim. And I reject your claim.
That depends on the atheist. All one needs to do to be atheist is
reject your claim. Some atheists go further and say that no gods as
defined by theists exist ( or they say that none such gods can
exist). others flat out say no gods of any kind exist.
I personally am waiting for someone to tell me just what a god is, and
how we could tell whether or not any exist...and no one will tell
me...so I've pretty much given up my search for gods. I leave the
possibility of a god existing open, but put the probability at zero.
Then you have closed your mind. How can someone show you God if
you already have decided that he is not even there?
You can find God in the real world, if you merely look for him.
He looks just like anyone else, except that he has subtle power.
No, you just have a mental illness.
(I'm not making a joke here)
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing
it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
- H. L. Mencken
.
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
25 Mar 2007 01:35:12 AM |
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On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 23:53:13 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 23:40:05 -0600, Mark Earnest wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174795484.545661.101280@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Mark Earnest wrote:
"Luna" <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message
If I say that your house is infected with fairies and elves, and you
say
you don't believe me, who is making a claim, me or you?
But atheists don't say they don't believe you, they say there is no God.
That is a claim. And I reject your claim.
That depends on the atheist. All one needs to do to be atheist is
reject your claim. Some atheists go further and say that no gods as
defined by theists exist ( or they say that none such gods can
exist). others flat out say no gods of any kind exist.
I personally am waiting for someone to tell me just what a god is, and
how we could tell whether or not any exist...and no one will tell
me...so I've pretty much given up my search for gods. I leave the
possibility of a god existing open, but put the probability at zero.
Then you have closed your mind. How can someone show you God if
you already have decided that he is not even there?
You can find God in the real world, if you merely look for him.
He looks just like anyone else, except that he has subtle power.
No, you just have a mental illness.
(I'm not making a joke here)
Why do the crazies never notice that we can tell they are crazy?
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
25 Mar 2007 10:50:51 AM |
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On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 02:35:12 -0500, Kate wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 23:53:13 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo>
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 23:40:05 -0600, Mark Earnest wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174795484.545661.101280@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Mark Earnest wrote:
"Luna" <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message
If I say that your house is infected with fairies and elves, and
you
say
you don't believe me, who is making a claim, me or you?
But atheists don't say they don't believe you, they say there is no
God. That is a claim. And I reject your claim.
That depends on the atheist. All one needs to do to be atheist is
reject your claim. Some atheists go further and say that no gods as
defined by theists exist ( or they say that none such gods can exist).
others flat out say no gods of any kind exist.
I personally am waiting for someone to tell me just what a god is, and
how we could tell whether or not any exist...and no one will tell
me...so I've pretty much given up my search for gods. I leave the
possibility of a god existing open, but put the probability at zero.
Then you have closed your mind. How can someone show you God if you
already have decided that he is not even there?
You can find God in the real world, if you merely look for him. He
looks just like anyone else, except that he has subtle power.
No, you just have a mental illness.
(I'm not making a joke here)
Why do the crazies never notice that we can tell they are crazy?
Oh, they do. They just explain it as "hate speech" or something similar
(see also: Stumped).
Delusional systems are rather interesting. A social animal that
disconnects from all social support sytems. Curious stuff...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing
it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
- H. L. Mencken
.
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
25 Mar 2007 01:45:35 AM |
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|
One fine day in alt.atheism, (Kate ) bloodied us up
with this:
Why do the crazies never notice that we can tell they are crazy?
The vast majority of crazy people think the rest of the world is crazy.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack. Plonked by Fester.
Member Duke Spanking Club.
.
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
25 Mar 2007 01:42:07 AM |
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One fine day in alt.atheism, "Mark Earnest" <gmearnest@yahoo.com> bloodied
us up with this:
I personally am waiting for someone to tell me just what a god is, and
how we could tell whether or not any exist...and no one will tell
me...so I've pretty much given up my search for gods. I leave the
possibility of a god existing open, but put the probability at zero.
Then you have closed your mind. How can someone show you God if
you already have decided that he is not even there?
Many of us have based that zero-probability decision on a lifetime of
observation: God does not answer prayer as the bible says he does. God
does not perform miracles these days like those he supposedly performed in
the bible.
A friend of mine insisted that my recent survival of a motorcycle accident
at a speed where some riders have died was a gift from "god". Can you
explain why the god, who apparently wanted me to survive the accident
allowed the accident to happen in the first place?
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack. Plonked by Fester.
Member Duke Spanking Club.
.
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| User: "Martin Phipps" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
25 Mar 2007 06:52:12 AM |
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On Mar 25, 2:42 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:
One fine day in alt.atheism, "Mark Earnest" <gmearn...@yahoo.com> bloodied
us up with this:
I personally am waiting for someone to tell me just what a god is, and
how we could tell whether or not any exist...and no one will tell
me...so I've pretty much given up my search for gods. I leave the
possibility of a god existing open, but put the probability at zero.
Then you have closed your mind. How can someone show you God if
you already have decided that he is not even there?
Many of us have based that zero-probability decision on a lifetime of
observation: God does not answer prayer as the bible says he does. God
does not perform miracles these days like those he supposedly performed in
the bible.
A friend of mine insisted that my recent survival of a motorcycle accident
at a speed where some riders have died was a gift from "god". Can you
explain why the god, who apparently wanted me to survive the accident
allowed the accident to happen in the first place?
I remember one time I was at work and the computer was slow because it
had been on all day and a theist told me that God was telling me that
God was making the computer slow to let me know that it was time to go
home. Convinced theists are completely and utterly disassociated from
reality! They can't accept that anything happens without God being
responsible!
Martin
.
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
25 Mar 2007 11:50:22 AM |
|
|
One fine day in alt.atheism, "Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2@yahoo.com>
bloodied us up with this:
I remember one time I was at work and the computer was slow because it
had been on all day and a theist told me that God was telling me that
God was making the computer slow to let me know that it was time to go
home. Convinced theists are completely and utterly disassociated from
reality! They can't accept that anything happens without God being
responsible!
But the omnipotent god can be beaten with a simple reboot. Maybe the god
didn't know this...
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack. Plonked by Fester.
Member Duke Spanking Club.
.
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| User: "Olrik" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
24 Mar 2007 10:58:54 PM |
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On Mar 24, 10:24 pm, "Mark Earnest" <gmearn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Luna" <lunach...@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message
news:lunachick-C7FD39.22582824032007@news.west.earthlink.net...
In article <1174790099.268259.70...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
"StMichael" <stmichae...@gmail.com> wrote:
First, atheism doesn't make claims. Theists makes claims, atheists
just
say theists don't have enough proof for us to believe their claims.
Yes, actually you do make a claim. You make a truth claim: "no god/s
exist." This, at least, indicates a level of claim on reality.
Otherwise, your position would be meaningless.
If I say that your house is infected with fairies and elves, and you say
you don't believe me, who is making a claim, me or you?
But atheists don't say they don't believe you, they say there is no God.
Not all of us say that. Only some do (like me, for instance). We're
often called "strong atheists". Nonetheless, we *all* lack belief in
the various "gods" described to us.
That is a claim. And I reject your claim.
If you say
there is a god, and I say I don't believe you, I'm not making a claim,
I'm rejecting yours.
You haven't shown how atheism leads to a lack of an objective basis
for
reality.
I would argue that a lack of a source of being (God) results in saying
that being comes from pure/absolute non-being.
I would say not. If you say God is the source of being, then what is the
source of God?
God is the ultimate source. Everything has an ultimate. That is just the
way reality works.
If everything has to have had a cause, then doesn't God
have to have one too?
God caused, created, himself, out of nothing.
Fallacy of special pleading :
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html
You've been here in a.a. for a while, you have no excuse to ignore it.
Olrik
.
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| User: "Mark Earnest" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
24 Mar 2007 11:03:55 PM |
|
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"Olrik" <olrik666@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174795134.030282.27670@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 24, 10:24 pm, "Mark Earnest" <gmearn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Luna" <lunach...@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message
news:lunachick-C7FD39.22582824032007@news.west.earthlink.net...
In article <1174790099.268259.70...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
"StMichael" <stmichae...@gmail.com> wrote:
First, atheism doesn't make claims. Theists makes claims,
atheists
just
say theists don't have enough proof for us to believe their
claims.
Yes, actually you do make a claim. You make a truth claim: "no god/s
exist." This, at least, indicates a level of claim on reality.
Otherwise, your position would be meaningless.
If I say that your house is infected with fairies and elves, and you
say
you don't believe me, who is making a claim, me or you?
But atheists don't say they don't believe you, they say there is no God.
Not all of us say that. Only some do (like me, for instance). We're
often called "strong atheists". Nonetheless, we *all* lack belief in
the various "gods" described to us.
That is a claim. And I reject your claim.
If you say
there is a god, and I say I don't believe you, I'm not making a claim,
I'm rejecting yours.
You haven't shown how atheism leads to a lack of an objective
basis
for
reality.
I would argue that a lack of a source of being (God) results in
saying
that being comes from pure/absolute non-being.
I would say not. If you say God is the source of being, then what is
the
source of God?
God is the ultimate source. Everything has an ultimate. That is just
the
way reality works.
If everything has to have had a cause, then doesn't God
have to have one too?
God caused, created, himself, out of nothing.
Fallacy of special pleading :
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html
You've been here in a.a. for a while, you have no excuse to ignore it.
God has a reason for being exempt: by definition God is the exception to
many rules. God is the ultimate...where everything eventually winds up in
collective processes.
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
26 Mar 2007 02:56:22 PM |
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"Mark Earnest" <gmearnest@yahoo.com>
snip
God has a reason for being exempt: by definition God is the exception to
many rules.
Wrong.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.
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| User: "quibbler" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
25 Mar 2007 10:49:28 AM |
|
|
In article <130bt56msmi1f5d@corp.supernews.com>,
says...
"Olrik" <olrik666@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174795134.030282.27670@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 24, 10:24 pm, "Mark Earnest" <gmearn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Luna" <lunach...@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message
news:lunachick-C7FD39.22582824032007@news.west.earthlink.net...
In article <1174790099.268259.70...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
"StMichael" <stmichae...@gmail.com> wrote:
First, atheism doesn't make claims. Theists makes claims,
atheists
just
say theists don't have enough proof for us to believe their
claims.
Yes, actually you do make a claim. You make a truth claim: "no god/s
exist." This, at least, indicates a level of claim on reality.
Otherwise, your position would be meaningless.
If I say that your house is infected with fairies and elves, and you
say
you don't believe me, who is making a claim, me or you?
But atheists don't say they don't believe you, they say there is no God.
Not all of us say that. Only some do (like me, for instance). We're
often called "strong atheists". Nonetheless, we *all* lack belief in
the various "gods" described to us.
That is a claim. And I reject your claim.
If you say
there is a god, and I say I don't believe you, I'm not making a claim,
I'm rejecting yours.
You haven't shown how atheism leads to a lack of an objective
basis
for
reality.
I would argue that a lack of a source of being (God) results in
saying
that being comes from pure/absolute non-being.
I would say not. If you say God is the source of being, then what is
the
source of God?
God is the ultimate source. Everything has an ultimate. That is just
the
way reality works.
If everything has to have had a cause, then doesn't God
have to have one too?
God caused, created, himself, out of nothing.
Fallacy of special pleading :
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html
You've been here in a.a. for a while, you have no excuse to ignore it.
God has a reason for being exempt:
Every special pleading is an alleged reason for being exempt.
by definition God is the exception to
many rules.
IOWs, you're admitting that god is a special pleading.
God is the ultimate
There are ultimates in many categories. It's not clear that there is an
ultimate which applies to all categories, however. You're assuming that
god is the type of thing which can be ordered or ranked. By which
criteria do you propose to do that?
...where everything eventually winds up in
collective processes.
No, god is the ***** that you continually make up as you go along,
from the sound of it.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
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| User: "bob young" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
25 Mar 2007 12:16:03 AM |
|
|
Mark Earnest wrote:
"Olrik" <olrik666@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174795134.030282.27670@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 24, 10:24 pm, "Mark Earnest" <gmearn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Luna" <lunach...@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message
news:lunachick-C7FD39.22582824032007@news.west.earthlink.net...
In article <1174790099.268259.70...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
"StMichael" <stmichae...@gmail.com> wrote:
First, atheism doesn't make claims. Theists makes claims,
atheists
just
say theists don't have enough proof for us to believe their
claims.
Yes, actually you do make a claim. You make a truth claim: "no god/s
exist." This, at least, indicates a level of claim on reality.
Otherwise, your position would be meaningless.
If I say that your house is infected with fairies and elves, and you
say
you don't believe me, who is making a claim, me or you?
But atheists don't say they don't believe you, they say there is no God.
Not all of us say that. Only some do (like me, for instance). We're
often called "strong atheists". Nonetheless, we *all* lack belief in
the various "gods" described to us.
That is a claim. And I reject your claim.
If you say
there is a god, and I say I don't believe you, I'm not making a claim,
I'm rejecting yours.
You haven't shown how atheism leads to a lack of an objective
basis
for
reality.
I would argue that a lack of a source of being (God) results in
saying
that being comes from pure/absolute non-being.
I would say not. If you say God is the source of being, then what is
the
source of God?
God is the ultimate source. Everything has an ultimate. That is just
the
way reality works.
If everything has to have had a cause, then doesn't God
have to have one too?
God caused, created, himself, out of nothing.
Fallacy of special pleading :
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html
You've been here in a.a. for a while, you have no excuse to ignore it.
God has a reason for being exempt: by definition God is the exception to
many rules. God is the ultimate...where everything eventually winds up in
collective processes.
'God' is the retreat for anxious, insecure and frightened humans.
nothing more
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark Earnest" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
25 Mar 2007 01:06:19 AM |
|
|
"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:4606048F.87B21384@netvigator.com...
Mark Earnest wrote:
"Olrik" <olrik666@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174795134.030282.27670@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 24, 10:24 pm, "Mark Earnest" <gmearn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Luna" <lunach...@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message
news:lunachick-C7FD39.22582824032007@news.west.earthlink.net...
In article <1174790099.268259.70...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
"StMichael" <stmichae...@gmail.com> wrote:
First, atheism doesn't make claims. Theists makes claims,
atheists
just
say theists don't have enough proof for us to believe their
claims.
Yes, actually you do make a claim. You make a truth claim: "no
god/s
exist." This, at least, indicates a level of claim on reality.
Otherwise, your position would be meaningless.
If I say that your house is infected with fairies and elves, and
you
say
you don't believe me, who is making a claim, me or you?
But atheists don't say they don't believe you, they say there is no
God.
Not all of us say that. Only some do (like me, for instance). We're
often called "strong atheists". Nonetheless, we *all* lack belief in
the various "gods" described to us.
That is a claim. And I reject your claim.
If you say
there is a god, and I say I don't believe you, I'm not making a
claim,
I'm rejecting yours.
You haven't shown how atheism leads to a lack of an objective
basis
for
reality.
I would argue that a lack of a source of being (God) results in
saying
that being comes from pure/absolute non-being.
I would say not. If you say God is the source of being, then what
is
the
source of God?
God is the ultimate source. Everything has an ultimate. That is
just
the
way reality works.
If everything has to have had a cause, then doesn't God
have to have one too?
God caused, created, himself, out of nothing.
Fallacy of special pleading :
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html
You've been here in a.a. for a while, you have no excuse to ignore it.
God has a reason for being exempt: by definition God is the exception to
many rules. God is the ultimate...where everything eventually winds up
in
collective processes.
'God' is the retreat for anxious, insecure and frightened humans.
nothing more
And don't we all get frightened, insecure and anxious, sometimes?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Martin Phipps" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
25 Mar 2007 06:47:05 AM |
|
|
On Mar 25, 2:06 pm, "Mark Earnest" <gmearn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"bob young" <alaspect...@netvigator.com> wrote in message
'God' is the retreat for anxious, insecure and frightened humans.
nothing more
And don't we all get frightened, insecure and anxious, sometimes?
Yes... until we grow up.
Martin
.
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| User: "J Forbes" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
24 Mar 2007 11:07:57 PM |
|
|
Mark Earnest wrote:
"Olrik" <olrik666@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174795134.030282.27670@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 24, 10:24 pm, "Mark Earnest" <gmearn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
God caused, created, himself, out of nothing.
Fallacy of special pleading :
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html
You've been here in a.a. for a while, you have no excuse to ignore it.
God has a reason for being exempt: by definition God is the exception to
many rules.
For some reason, I'm not going to take your word for it. I'll offer my
own definition of God (I have as much right to do so as you do!): God
is that which is not there
Jim
.
|
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| User: "Mark Earnest" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
24 Mar 2007 11:42:04 PM |
|
|
"J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174795677.269811.107030@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Mark Earnest wrote:
"Olrik" <olrik666@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174795134.030282.27670@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 24, 10:24 pm, "Mark Earnest" <gmearn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
God caused, created, himself, out of nothing.
Fallacy of special pleading :
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html
You've been here in a.a. for a while, you have no excuse to ignore it.
God has a reason for being exempt: by definition God is the exception to
many rules.
For some reason, I'm not going to take your word for it. I'll offer my
own definition of God (I have as much right to do so as you do!): God
is that which is not there
How could something not be there?
By saying it is not there you have just implied its existence,
only with the addition that you attempt to deny its right to exist.
.
|
|
|
| User: "J Forbes" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
24 Mar 2007 11:55:58 PM |
|
|
Mark Earnest wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174795677.269811.107030@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
For some reason, I'm not going to take your word for it. I'll offer my
own definition of God (I have as much right to do so as you do!): God
is that which is not there
How could something not be there?
It can't! but you can still talk about it, even if it's not there.
For example, we can talk about the one million dollars that is not
sitting on my desk next to me. We can even talk about how I would
spend it, were it really there.
Do you understand the concept of "make-believe"?
By saying it is not there you have just implied its existence,
only with the addition that you attempt to deny its right to exist.
Sorry, I can't wrap my mind around that kind of gobbledygook.
Jim
.
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| User: "Mark Earnest" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheism and its philosophical problems |
25 Mar 2007 12:21:37 AM |
|
|
"J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174798558.669905.122010@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
Mark Earnest wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote in message
news:1174795677.269811.107030@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
For some reason, I'm not going to take your word for it. I'll offer my
own definition of God (I have as much right to do so as you do!): God
is that which is not there
How could something not be there?
It can't! but you can still talk about it, even if it's not there.
For example, we can talk about the one million dollars that is not
sitting on my desk next to me.
Then you are thinking about a real million dollars, but are trying to
imagine it as yours. The money exists, even though you are trying to
imagine it where it is not.
We can even talk about how I would
spend it, were it really there.
Do you understand the concept of "make-believe"?
Sure, and people make reality from make believe.
By saying it is not there you have just implied its existence,
only with the addition that you attempt to deny its right to exist.
Sorry, I can't wrap my mind around that kind of gobbledygook.
Jim
.
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