| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Bhanwara" |
| Date: |
23 Oct 2007 03:39:37 PM |
| Object: |
Atheism and Morality |
I used to think atheists are more moral than the average person.
This was based upon the following observations:
(A) Blackmail and bribery are immoral.
(B) Religions use blackmail and bribery to convince people.
(C) Atheists are honest enough to withstand
blackmail and bribery, to use their thought
processes honestly.
(D) Therefore they will use their though processes
honestly, in other things as well.
This was also confirmed by the fact that Gandhi was an atheist, and he
was decidely very moral.
As an aside, Gandhi being an atheist may be surprising to many
people. He never advertised it widely, because many very religious
people looked up to him. He used phrases such as "I used to think God
is truth. But later on, I understood that Truth is God". Which, to
the wise person, explains a journey from superstitious religion to
honest atheism. At the same time, it doesn't take away the Santa
Clause from those who need Him.
However, lately I have started having grave doubts about this
connection between atheism and morality.
If an individual like Christopher Hutchins - who is so afraid of dying
that he is very happy about lots of innocents' dying in Iraq just so
he can be less fearful - is also an atheist, could there truly be a
connection between atheism and morality?
Moreover, apparently Hutchins is not an atheist because of a search
for truth. Hutchins is an atheist because he wanted to eat pork, and
his God didn't want him to eat pork.
A lot of atheists, I see, also support someone like Hutchins.
Supporting an individual like that could hardly be an act of good
faith or any kind of morality, or any honest thought.
So is a connection between atheism and morality just a coincidence, or
are truth-seeking atheists more numerous than pork-lusting atheists?
- Bhanwara
http://blogspot.bhanwara.com/
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| User: "GoDrex" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
23 Oct 2007 05:15:36 PM |
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"Bhanwara" <bhanwaram@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1193171977.704351.243760@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
I used to think atheists are more moral than the average person.
This was based upon the following observations:
(A) Blackmail and bribery are immoral.
(B) Religions use blackmail and bribery to convince people.
(C) Atheists are honest enough to withstand
blackmail and bribery, to use their thought
processes honestly.
(D) Therefore they will use their though processes
honestly, in other things as well.
This was also confirmed by the fact that Gandhi was an atheist, and he
was decidely very moral.
As an aside, Gandhi being an atheist may be surprising to many
people. He never advertised it widely, because many very religious
people looked up to him. He used phrases such as "I used to think God
is truth. But later on, I understood that Truth is God". Which, to
the wise person, explains a journey from superstitious religion to
honest atheism. At the same time, it doesn't take away the Santa
Clause from those who need Him.
However, lately I have started having grave doubts about this
connection between atheism and morality.
If an individual like Christopher Hutchins - who is so afraid of dying
that he is very happy about lots of innocents' dying in Iraq just so
he can be less fearful - is also an atheist, could there truly be a
connection between atheism and morality?
Moreover, apparently Hutchins is not an atheist because of a search
for truth. Hutchins is an atheist because he wanted to eat pork, and
his God didn't want him to eat pork.
A lot of atheists, I see, also support someone like Hutchins.
Supporting an individual like that could hardly be an act of good
faith or any kind of morality, or any honest thought.
So is a connection between atheism and morality just a coincidence, or
are truth-seeking atheists more numerous than pork-lusting atheists?
- Bhanwara
http://blogspot.bhanwara.com/
All atheists are the same, so it makes perfect sense for you to lump them
altogether as a monolitic block of people that all behave the same way. You
are extremely intelligent and charming and your wife is quite beautiful as
well.
.
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| User: "Bhanwara" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
25 Oct 2007 07:25:18 AM |
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On Oct 23, 6:15 pm, "GoDrex" <godre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
All atheists are the same, so it makes perfect sense for you to lump them
altogether as a monolitic block of people that all behave the same way.
No, they are not the same, but they do share the property of not
believing in gods, while living in socieities that do (I am assuming
atheists in the USA primarily, here.) From this, one can make at
least some reasonable inferences.
You
are extremely intelligent and charming and your wife is quite beautiful as
well.
Why, thank you. At least you got some of it right :-)
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
25 Oct 2007 04:06:38 PM |
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On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 05:25:18 -0700, Bhanwara <bhanwaram@netscape.net>
wrote:
On Oct 23, 6:15 pm, "GoDrex" <godre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
All atheists are the same, so it makes perfect sense for you to lump them
altogether as a monolitic block of people that all behave the same way.
No, they are not the same, but they do share the property of not
believing in gods
Good.
while living in socieities that do
Nope. A person who doesn't believe in gods is an atheist, even if the
society in which he lives is completely atheist because it never came
up with the concept of gods.
ALL 'atheist' means is 'not theist', so a chair, not being a theist,
is nominally an atheist.
From this, one can make at
least some reasonable inferences.
That the atheist has no god-belief. Any other inference is not
reasonable. A particular one may be true, but it's still not
reasonable.
--
Al at Webdingers dot com
"I count religion but a childish toy, and hold there is
no sin but ignorance."
- Christopher Marlowe
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| User: "Bhanwara" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
25 Oct 2007 06:45:38 PM |
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On Oct 25, 5:06 pm, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
That the atheist has no god-belief. Any other inference is not
reasonable. A particular one may be true, but it's still not
reasonable.
Really?
There are a lot of reasonable inferences I can make.
Try a couple for size:
1) Atheist has some understanding of the concept "God".
While as per some definition, every chair and every baby is an
atheist, this is useless logic.
2) There is a chain of thought resulting in the person being an
atheist.
While some may just spontaneously become an atheist, usually there is
some thought involved.
Of course, the word "reasonable" is subjective, so you can just write
"no, they are not reasonable inferences."
But personally, for interesting communication, I like more than just
declarations.
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| User: "David V." |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
25 Oct 2007 07:06:15 PM |
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Bhanwara wrote:
On Oct 25, 5:06 pm, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
That the atheist has no god-belief. Any other inference is
not reasonable. A particular one may be true, but it's
still not reasonable.
Really?
There are a lot of reasonable inferences I can make.
Try a couple for size:
1) Atheist has some understanding of the concept "God".
No, a god is what they believe in, not me. I have no concept of a
god other than what they claim it is.
2) There is a chain of thought resulting in the person being
an atheist.
While some may just spontaneously become an atheist, usually
there is some thought involved.
Nope. None. I was born an Atheist. Lack of belief in gods is all
that is required for one to be an Atheist.
--
Dave
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger." Mark Twain.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
25 Oct 2007 09:39:45 PM |
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On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:45:38 -0700, Bhanwara <bhanwaram@netscape.net>
wrote:
On Oct 25, 5:06 pm, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
That the atheist has no god-belief. Any other inference is not
reasonable. A particular one may be true, but it's still not
reasonable.
Really?
There are a lot of reasonable inferences I can make.
Try a couple for size:
1) Atheist has some understanding of the concept "God".
God (upper-case G) is the name of the Christian god. It's a trivial
inference, though.
While as per some definition, every chair and every baby is an
atheist, this is useless logic.
Knowing the definition of a word is never useless. It's not 'logic',
either.
2) There is a chain of thought resulting in the person being an
atheist.
Nope. Chairs don't thin, but, not having any god-belief, they're
trivially atheists. Atheism doesn't require any ability to believe,
just lack of belief.
While some may just spontaneously become an atheist, usually there is
some thought involved.
I was born this way. I didn't do much thinking in the womb. I just
never became a theist, since there was never any reason to do so. Many
of us have the same "reason" for being atheists.
--
Al at Webdingers dot com
"I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be under-
stood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can
comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of
humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."
- 1954 or 1955; quoted in Dukas and Hoffman _Albert Einstein the Human Side_, p. 39
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| User: "Randy Day" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
26 Oct 2007 07:43:08 AM |
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Al Klein wrote:
[snip]
Nope. Chairs don't thin, but, not having any god-belief, they're
Hey, are you making fun of my weight problem?
<squinty>
--
R
Atheist Chair,
EAC Disicplinary Committee
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
25 Oct 2007 07:15:11 PM |
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On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:45:38 -0700, Bhanwara <bhanwaram@netscape.net>
wrote:
On Oct 25, 5:06 pm, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
That the atheist has no god-belief. Any other inference is not
reasonable. A particular one may be true, but it's still not
reasonable.
Really?
Here's a clue, moron: you have no idea what an atheist is, tand think
you get to tell atheists what our point of view is, and rudely refuse
to be corrected.
There are a lot of reasonable inferences I can make.
Try a couple for size:
1) Atheist has some understanding of the concept "God".
It's part of somebody else's religious belief that we wouldn't give a
toss about if they didn't force their beliefs where they are neither
wanted nor needed.
While as per some definition, every chair and every baby is an
atheist, this is useless logic.
Is a chair somebody, moron?
You never did address the point you rudely dismissed: that gods are
part of the the theists' paradigm, and their presumption is only
logically valid inside their religion.
By your name I would guess that you are some kind of Hindu. Most
likely lapsed Astika.
But I would have expected you to understand the Nastika.
Since I moved to the USA in 1989 the few Christians I've met who
understand what an atheist is, have been European or Indian, who have
seen enough of different religions to understand how theirs is seen
from outside - the Lady In My Life is a Catholic born in Delhi to an
ex-Hindu father who was atheist and converted to Catholic to "get the
girl" and a Catholic mother from Kerala.
Which is why your ignorance surprises me.
2) There is a chain of thought resulting in the person being an
atheist.
Not needed.
If a child is not taight his parents' god(s) in his formative years he
doesn't grow up believing in them.
While some may just spontaneously become an atheist, usually there is
some thought involved.
Sometimes.
In countries like Hitchens' own very few people take religion
seriously, even most who call themselves Christian. They go through
the motions for cultural reasons: while they call themselves
Christians at most they like the message and "believe there is
something" while not accepting things like virgin birth, resurrection,
etc; and certainly not the Garden of Eden or the flood.
When they teach it to their kids they don't take it seriously either.
Often losing their belief in the same way they lose their Santa Claus
belief. Some remain the same kind of just-about-believer. Others
don't.
And of course plenty don't teach it at all. My parents didn't.
By your logic none of these would be atheists.
A few people have seriously religious parents and manage to throw off
god-belief when they learn about the real world, go to university etc.
They are a minority of atheists.
Of course, the word "reasonable" is subjective, so you can just write
"no, they are not reasonable inferences."
But personally, for interesting communication, I like more than just
declarations.
But you don't like people describing themselves when it contradicts
what you think you know.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
23 Oct 2007 05:43:00 PM |
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"Bhanwara" <bhanwaram@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1193171977.704351.243760@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
I used to think atheists are more moral than the average person.
This was based upon the following observations:
(A) Blackmail and bribery are immoral.
(B) Religions use blackmail and bribery to convince people.
(C) Atheists are honest enough to withstand
blackmail and bribery, to use their thought
processes honestly.
(D) Therefore they will use their though processes
honestly, in other things as well.
This was also confirmed by the fact that Gandhi was an atheist, and he
was decidely very moral.
As an aside, Gandhi being an atheist may be surprising to many
people. He never advertised it widely, because many very religious
people looked up to him. He used phrases such as "I used to think God
is truth. But later on, I understood that Truth is God". Which, to
the wise person, explains a journey from superstitious religion to
honest atheism. At the same time, it doesn't take away the Santa
Clause from those who need Him.
However, lately I have started having grave doubts about this
connection between atheism and morality.
If an individual like Christopher Hutchins - who is so afraid of dying
that he is very happy about lots of innocents' dying in Iraq just so
he can be less fearful - is also an atheist, could there truly be a
connection between atheism and morality?
Atheism is the lack of belief in gods - THAT'S IT.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
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| User: "Enkidu" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
23 Oct 2007 04:48:16 PM |
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Bhanwara <bhanwaram@netscape.net> wrote in news:1193171977.704351.243760
@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
I used to think atheists are more moral than the average person.
This was based upon the following observations:
(A) Blackmail and bribery are immoral.
(B) Religions use blackmail and bribery to convince people.
(C) Atheists are honest enough to withstand
blackmail and bribery, to use their thought
processes honestly.
(D) Therefore they will use their though processes
honestly, in other things as well.
This was also confirmed by the fact that Gandhi was an atheist, and he
was decidely very moral.
As an aside, Gandhi being an atheist may be surprising to many
people. He never advertised it widely, because many very religious
people looked up to him. He used phrases such as "I used to think God
is truth. But later on, I understood that Truth is God". Which, to
the wise person, explains a journey from superstitious religion to
honest atheism. At the same time, it doesn't take away the Santa
Clause from those who need Him.
However, lately I have started having grave doubts about this
connection between atheism and morality.
If an individual like Christopher Hutchins - who is so afraid of dying
that he is very happy about lots of innocents' dying in Iraq just so
he can be less fearful - is also an atheist, could there truly be a
connection between atheism and morality?
Atheism isn't moral. It isn't anything, really. However, it is a blank
slate upon which a person can write a rational moral code.
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
Theists claim that there is a god; atheists do not. Religionists often
challenge atheists to prove that there is no god; but this misses the
point. Atheists claim god is unproved, not disproved. In any argument,
the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.
-Dan Barker
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| User: "David V." |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
23 Oct 2007 04:18:27 PM |
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Bhanwara wrote:
I used to think atheists are more moral than the average
person.
This was based upon the following observations:
(A) Blackmail and bribery are immoral. (B) Religions use
blackmail and bribery to convince people. (C) Atheists are
honest enough to withstand blackmail and bribery, to use their
thought processes honestly. (D) Therefore they will use their
though processes honestly, in other things as well.
This was also confirmed by the fact that Gandhi was an
atheist, and he was decidely very moral.
What leads you to believe that Gandhi was an Atheist? Everyone
else believes him to have been an Hindu?
As an aside, Gandhi being an atheist may be surprising to many
people.
I think it would surprise him too.
"I call myself a Sanatani Hindu, because I believe in the Vedas,
the Upanishads, the Puranas, and all that goes by the name of
Hindu scripture, and therefore in avataras and rebirth; I believe
in the varnashrama dharma in a sense, in my opinion strictly
Vedic but not in its presently popular crude sense; I believe in
the protection of cow … I do not disbelieve in murti puja."
(Young India: June 10, 1921)
"Everyone has faith in God though everyone does not know it. For
everyone has faith in himself and that multiplied to the nth
degree is God. The sum total of all that lives is God. We may not
be God, but we are of God, even as a little drop of water is of
the ocean."
There's probably more.
However, lately I have started having grave doubts about this
connection between atheism and morality.
You're entitled to your doubts, no matter how biased they are.
--
Dave
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger." Mark Twain.
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| User: "Bhanwara" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
25 Oct 2007 07:14:10 AM |
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On Oct 23, 5:18 pm, "David V." <s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
What leads you to believe that Gandhi was an Atheist? Everyone
else believes him to have been an Hindu?
I did post the quote.
As an aside, Gandhi being an atheist may be surprising to many
people.
I think it would surprise him too.
"I call myself a Sanatani Hindu, because I believe in the Vedas,
the Upanishads, the Puranas, and all that goes by the name of
Hindu scripture, and therefore in avataras and rebirth; I believe
in the varnashrama dharma in a sense, in my opinion strictly
Vedic but not in its presently popular crude sense; I believe in
the protection of cow ... I do not disbelieve in murti puja."
(Young India: June 10, 1921)
"Everyone has faith in God though everyone does not know it. For
everyone has faith in himself and that multiplied to the nth
degree is God. The sum total of all that lives is God. We may not
be God, but we are of God, even as a little drop of water is of
the ocean."
There was clearly a progression in his thinking. He started out as a
true believer, caste system and all. Slowly he changed. I think
there is a perception that Gandhi was born the way he lived. But
actually, his writings show he was involved with a lot of change.
The first quote you post is definitely an early one. The second one
actually sounds like post-atheism to me. (If there is no god, what is
everything? What is the sum total of all existence, etc.)
In any case "At first I thought God was Truth" is pretty clear. It
means "later on I realized it wasn't true in the way I thought it
was".
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| User: "David V." |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
25 Oct 2007 06:41:30 PM |
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Bhanwara wrote:
On Oct 23, 5:18 pm, "David V." <s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
What leads you to believe that Gandhi was an Atheist?
Everyone else believes him to have been an Hindu?
I did post the quote.
Was it in context?
There was clearly a progression in his thinking. He started
out as a true believer, caste system and all. Slowly he
changed. I think there is a perception that Gandhi was born
the way he lived. But actually, his writings show he was
involved with a lot of change.
Yes, but he never made it to Atheist. It does not matter anyway.
I don't play the appeal to authority game. Atheism can stand on
it's own. It does not need to be supported by a reliance on
famous names. The appeal to authority is the same logical fallacy
that christians use. I call them on it and see no reason not to
call an Atheist on it too.
--
Dave
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger." Mark Twain.
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| User: "Bhanwara" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
25 Oct 2007 06:48:36 PM |
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On Oct 25, 7:41 pm, "David V." <s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Bhanwara wrote:
Yes, but he never made it to Atheist. It does not matter anyway.
I don't play the appeal to authority game. Atheism can stand on
it's own. It does not need to be supported by a reliance on
You misunderstand. I war not attempting to use the name of Gandhi to
make atheism look better. It was simply a comparison between two
atheists, Hitchens and Gandhi. And by extension, between two
different types of atheism.
While Gandhi's detractors exist, and nasty rumors were spread about
Gandhi even in his day, there is a lot of material that exists and
lots of valid research that can be done about Gandhi's thinking.
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| User: "David V." |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
25 Oct 2007 07:03:30 PM |
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Bhanwara wrote:
On Oct 25, 7:41 pm, "David V." <s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Bhanwara wrote:
Yes, but he never made it to Atheist. It does not matter
anyway. I don't play the appeal to authority game. Atheism
can stand on it's own. It does not need to be supported by a
reliance on
You misunderstand. I war not attempting to use the name of
Gandhi to make atheism look better.
In any case, it was an appeal to authority. You could have
contrasted any two beliefs without name dropping.
--
Dave
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger." Mark Twain.
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
25 Oct 2007 07:39:16 PM |
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On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:48:36 -0700, Bhanwara <bhanwaram@netscape.net>
wrote:
On Oct 25, 7:41 pm, "David V." <s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Bhanwara wrote:
Yes, but he never made it to Atheist. It does not matter anyway.
I don't play the appeal to authority game. Atheism can stand on
it's own. It does not need to be supported by a reliance on
You misunderstand. I war not attempting to use the name of Gandhi to
make atheism look better. It was simply a comparison between two
atheists, Hitchens and Gandhi. And by extension, between two
different types of atheism.
There is only one "type" of atheism, whatever idiots like you try to
imagine.
And it's all we have in common: we are individuals who aren't theist.
Why is this so hard to understand?
Why do you want it to be nay more than that?
What you imagine are different "types" are simply different people's
reaction to what theists say and do, who haven't the sense to keep
their beliefs inside their religion.
While Gandhi's detractors exist, and nasty rumors were spread about
Gandhi even in his day, there is a lot of material that exists and
lots of valid research that can be done about Gandhi's thinking.
So provide it.
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
23 Oct 2007 07:55:22 PM |
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On Oct 24, 8:18 am, "David V." <s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Bhanwara wrote:
I used to think atheists are more moral than the average
person.
This was based upon the following observations:
(A) Blackmail and bribery are immoral. (B) Religions use
blackmail and bribery to convince people. (C) Atheists are
honest enough to withstand blackmail and bribery, to use their
thought processes honestly. (D) Therefore they will use their
though processes honestly, in other things as well.
This was also confirmed by the fact that Gandhi was an
atheist, and he was decidely very moral.
What leads you to believe that Gandhi was an Atheist? Everyone
else believes him to have been an Hindu?
I think you are correct that he considered himself a Hindu - but he
was also a freethinker and questioned many religious dogmas and
superstitions.
The most obvious was his opposition of the Hindu caste system.
So perhaps the original poster was confusing "freethinker" with
"atheist" - which do often go together.
Or maybe he is just ignorant.
8-)
Mark.
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| User: "David V." |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
23 Oct 2007 08:39:37 PM |
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Richo wrote:
On Oct 24, 8:18 am, "David V." <s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Bhanwara wrote:
I used to think atheists are more moral than the average
person.
This was based upon the following observations:
(A) Blackmail and bribery are immoral. (B) Religions use
blackmail and bribery to convince people. (C) Atheists are
honest enough to withstand blackmail and bribery, to use
their thought processes honestly. (D) Therefore they will
use their though processes honestly, in other things as
well.
This was also confirmed by the fact that Gandhi was an
atheist, and he was decidely very moral.
What leads you to believe that Gandhi was an Atheist?
Everyone else believes him to have been an Hindu?
I think you are correct that he considered himself a Hindu -
but he was also a freethinker and questioned many religious
dogmas and superstitions. The most obvious was his opposition
of the Hindu caste system.
So perhaps the original poster was confusing "freethinker"
with "atheist" - which do often go together. Or maybe he is
just ignorant. 8-)
I'd go with ignorant. He hasn't been back to support any of his
claims. I wonder why?
--
Dave
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger." Mark Twain.
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| User: "*nemo*" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
23 Oct 2007 07:14:01 PM |
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Bhanwara wrote:
I used to think atheists are more moral than the average person.
I really don't think so, not in considering whole populations.
This was based upon the following observations:
(A) Blackmail and bribery are immoral.
(B) Religions use blackmail and bribery to convince people.
(C) Atheists are honest enough to withstand
blackmail and bribery, to use their thought
processes honestly.
(D) Therefore they will use their though processes
honestly, in other things as well.
Highly simplistic. You should suspect easy answers when it comes to
something as complex as life.
This was also confirmed by the fact that Gandhi was an atheist, and he
was decidely very moral.
OK -- you're a goner. Gandhi was many things, but he was no atheist. In
fact, he shunned atheists who wanted to talk with him in his later
years. If you had to put a label on him, he came pretty close to being a
Unitarian... but even the Unitarians have no problem with atheists.
<snip>
However, lately I have started having grave doubts about this
connection between atheism and morality.
Hardly surprising. Perhaps a little more experience in observing real
life might help correct your misperceptions.
If an individual like Christopher Hutchins - who is so afraid of dying
that he is very happy about lots of innocents' dying in Iraq just so
he can be less fearful - is also an atheist, could there truly be a
connection between atheism and morality?
There can in fact be no connection of the sort you seem to be expecting.
Not believing in anything supernatural has no bearing on morality.
Moreover, apparently Hutchins is not an atheist because of a search
for truth. Hutchins is an atheist because he wanted to eat pork, and
his God didn't want him to eat pork.
A lot of atheists, I see, also support someone like Hutchins.
Supporting an individual like that could hardly be an act of good
faith or any kind of morality, or any honest thought.
I have to say, this is some of the shoddiest thinking I've seen in a
long time... and I interact with American fundies every day.
So is a connection between atheism and morality just a coincidence, or
are truth-seeking atheists more numerous than pork-lusting atheists?
- Bhanwara
http://blogspot.bhanwara.com/
You got a problem with me eating pork, bucko?
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
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| User: "Bhanwara" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
25 Oct 2007 08:09:20 AM |
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On Oct 23, 8:14 pm, *nemo* <nemo0...@earthlink.diespam.com> > OK --
you're a goner. Gandhi was many things, but he was no atheist. In
fact, he shunned atheists who wanted to talk with him in his later
years. If you had to put a label on him, he came pretty close to being a
Unitarian... but even the Unitarians have no problem with atheists.
Well, if he was no atheist, he believed in a particular type of God as
per his quote "I worship God as Truth only".
Whether someone who believes in Truth as opposed to any of the various
versions of God, can be called an atheist or not, is a valid
question. It is possible that many atheists have little interest in
truth, but are more interested in convenience. But Gandhi certainly
did not believe in the same God as standard theists do.
He also had long discussions with more open atheists, some of which
have been published.
The situation was complex for him, as he was representing many
different believers and faiths, and had to find positions which would
not be too harsh for any of his followers. Therefore he could not use
positions that were too shocking.
.
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| User: "David V." |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
25 Oct 2007 06:46:10 PM |
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Bhanwara wrote:
He [Gandhi] also had long discussions with more open atheists,
some of which have been published.
It doesn't matter. Atheism stands on it's own. It does not need
the approval of Gandhi.
--
Dave
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger." Mark Twain.
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
25 Oct 2007 07:35:10 PM |
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On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:46:10 -0700, "David V." <spam@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Bhanwara wrote:
He [Gandhi] also had long discussions with more open atheists,
some of which have been published.
It doesn't matter. Atheism stands on it's own. It does not need
the approval of Gandhi.
The young Gandhi was a friend of Charles Bradlaugh and Annie Besant.
He got his non-violence from Bradlaugh, who was both atheist and
outspoken in the cause of Irish and Indian independence.
Bradlaugh had been elected to parliament as member for Northampton but
refused admission because he couldn't swear an oath on somebody else's
god. And imprisoned when he tried. He resisted the temptation to fight
back when roughed up by the police as they removed him from the House
of Commons.
Gandhi was a mourner at Bradlaugh's funeral. Afterwards he wrote:
"And how could I help knowing something of atheism too ? Every Indian
knew Bradlaugh's name and his so-called atheism. I read some book
about it, the name of which I forget. It had no effect on me, for I
had already crossed the Sahara of atheism. Mrs. Besant who was then
very much in the limelight, had turned to theism from atheism, and
that fact also strengthened my aversion to atheism. I had read her
book0 How I Became a Theosophist.
"It was about this time that Bradlaugh died. He was buried in the
Woking Cemetery. I attended the funeral, as I believe every Indian
residing in London did. A few clergymen also were present to do him
the last honours. On our way back from the funeral we had to wait at
the station for our train. A champion atheist from the crowd heckled
one of these clergymen."Well, Sir, you believe in the existence of
God?" "I do," said the good man in a low tone.
""You also agree that the circumference of the Earth is 28,000 miles,
don't you ?" said the atheist with a smile of self-assurance.
""Indeed." "Pray tell me then the size of your God and where he may
be?" "Well, if we but knew, He resides in the hearts of us both."
""Now, now, don't take me to be a child," said the champion with a
triumphant look at us.
"The clergyman assumed a humble silence.
"This talk still further increased my prejudice against atheism."
- THE STORY OF MY EXPERIMENTS WITH TRUTH By Mahatma Gandhi
http://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/resources/english/etext-project/Biography/gandhi/part1.chapter21.html
or a shorter link: http://tinyurl.com/yvfxk6
Why didn't you do something like this with your Hitchens "quote"?
Incidentally I was disappointed by his reference to Bradlaugh's
"so-called atheism". I would have expected better of him.
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| User: "Bhanwara" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
25 Oct 2007 08:15:08 AM |
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On Oct 23, 8:14 pm, *nemo* <nemo0...@earthlink.diespam.com> wrote:
You got a problem with me eating pork, bucko?
Certainly, there is no law against it, therefore society does not
restrict you from eating pork or whatever.
But your morals are your own responsibility, not mine.
.
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| User: "Charles & Mambo Duckman" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
24 Oct 2007 12:39:36 AM |
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Bhanwara wrote:
Moreover, apparently Hutchins is not an atheist because of a search
for truth. Hutchins is an atheist because he wanted to eat pork, and
his God didn't want him to eat pork.
No, I heard he's an atheist because he wanted to wear shirts made of two
different fabrics. That, and he wanted unlimited abortions until his uterus
looks like a baseball glove.
--
Come down off the cross
We can use the wood
Tom Waits, Come On Up To The House
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
23 Oct 2007 05:27:19 PM |
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Bhanwara" <bhanwaram@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1193171977.704351.243760@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
I used to think atheists are more moral than the average person.
This was based upon the following observations:
(A) Blackmail and bribery are immoral.
(B) Religions use blackmail and bribery to convince people.
(C) Atheists are honest enough to withstand
blackmail and bribery, to use their thought
processes honestly.
(D) Therefore they will use their though processes
honestly, in other things as well.
This was also confirmed by the fact that Gandhi was an atheist, and he
was decidely very moral.
As an aside, Gandhi being an atheist may be surprising to many
people. He never advertised it widely, because many very religious
people looked up to him. He used phrases such as "I used to think God
is truth. But later on, I understood that Truth is God". Which, to
the wise person, explains a journey from superstitious religion to
honest atheism. At the same time, it doesn't take away the Santa
Clause from those who need Him.
However, lately I have started having grave doubts about this
connection between atheism and morality.
If an individual like Christopher Hutchins - who is so afraid of dying
that he is very happy about lots of innocents' dying in Iraq just so
he can be less fearful - is also an atheist, could there truly be a
connection between atheism and morality?
Moreover, apparently Hutchins is not an atheist because of a search
for truth. Hutchins is an atheist because he wanted to eat pork, and
his God didn't want him to eat pork.
A lot of atheists, I see, also support someone like Hutchins.
Supporting an individual like that could hardly be an act of good
faith or any kind of morality, or any honest thought.
So is a connection between atheism and morality just a coincidence, or
are truth-seeking atheists more numerous than pork-lusting atheists?
- Bhanwara
http://blogspot.bhanwara.com/
You will find nitwits in any large group. Hitchens is very
smart about some things but extemely dumb about others.
But, for you to change your good thoughts about atheists
due to only one person isn't very smart of you.
.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
23 Oct 2007 05:45:33 PM |
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In article <B_mdnZ5DIK3f6IPanZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d@comcast.com> "Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> writes:
Bhanwara" <bhanwaram@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1193171977.704351.243760@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
I used to think atheists are more moral than the average person.
This was based upon the following observations:
(A) Blackmail and bribery are immoral.
(B) Religions use blackmail and bribery to convince people.
(C) Atheists are honest enough to withstand
blackmail and bribery, to use their thought
processes honestly.
(D) Therefore they will use their though processes
honestly, in other things as well.
This was also confirmed by the fact that Gandhi was an atheist, and he
was decidely very moral.
As an aside, Gandhi being an atheist may be surprising to many
people. He never advertised it widely, because many very religious
people looked up to him. He used phrases such as "I used to think God
is truth. But later on, I understood that Truth is God". Which, to
the wise person, explains a journey from superstitious religion to
honest atheism. At the same time, it doesn't take away the Santa
Clause from those who need Him.
However, lately I have started having grave doubts about this
connection between atheism and morality.
If an individual like Christopher Hutchins - who is so afraid of dying
that he is very happy about lots of innocents' dying in Iraq just so
he can be less fearful - is also an atheist, could there truly be a
connection between atheism and morality?
Moreover, apparently Hutchins is not an atheist because of a search
for truth. Hutchins is an atheist because he wanted to eat pork, and
his God didn't want him to eat pork.
A lot of atheists, I see, also support someone like Hutchins.
Supporting an individual like that could hardly be an act of good
faith or any kind of morality, or any honest thought.
So is a connection between atheism and morality just a coincidence, or
are truth-seeking atheists more numerous than pork-lusting atheists?
- Bhanwara
http://blogspot.bhanwara.com/
You will find nitwits in any large group. Hitchens is very
smart about some things but extemely dumb about others.
But, for you to change your good thoughts about atheists
due to only one person isn't very smart of you.
Indeed.
And don't base your impresion on Dawkins, either.
-- cary
.
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
23 Oct 2007 06:08:54 PM |
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On Oct 23, 3:45 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <B_mdnZ5DIK3f6IPanZ2dnUVZ_gqdn...@comcast.com> "Michelle Malkin" <hypati...@comcast.net> writes:
Bhanwara" <bhanwa...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1193171977.704351.243760@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
I used to think atheists are more moral than the average person.
This was based upon the following observations:
(A) Blackmail and bribery are immoral.
(B) Religions use blackmail and bribery to convince people.
(C) Atheists are honest enough to withstand
blackmail and bribery, to use their thought
processes honestly.
(D) Therefore they will use their though processes
honestly, in other things as well.
This was also confirmed by the fact that Gandhi was an atheist, and he
was decidely very moral.
As an aside, Gandhi being an atheist may be surprising to many
people. He never advertised it widely, because many very religious
people looked up to him. He used phrases such as "I used to think God
is truth. But later on, I understood that Truth is God". Which, to
the wise person, explains a journey from superstitious religion to
honest atheism. At the same time, it doesn't take away the Santa
Clause from those who need Him.
However, lately I have started having grave doubts about this
connection between atheism and morality.
If an individual like Christopher Hutchins - who is so afraid of dying
that he is very happy about lots of innocents' dying in Iraq just so
he can be less fearful - is also an atheist, could there truly be a
connection between atheism and morality?
Moreover, apparently Hutchins is not an atheist because of a search
for truth. Hutchins is an atheist because he wanted to eat pork, and
his God didn't want him to eat pork.
A lot of atheists, I see, also support someone like Hutchins.
Supporting an individual like that could hardly be an act of good
faith or any kind of morality, or any honest thought.
So is a connection between atheism and morality just a coincidence, or
are truth-seeking atheists more numerous than pork-lusting atheists?
- Bhanwara
http://blogspot.bhanwara.com/
You will find nitwits in any large group. Hitchens is very
smart about some things but extemely dumb about others.
But, for you to change your good thoughts about atheists
due to only one person isn't very smart of you.
Indeed.
And don't base your impresion on Dawkins, either.
Ah, but at least Dawkins isn't a pork-luster! He has *never* been
known to purchase Shake-N-Bake, and that's a fact.
So there.
Brenda
.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
24 Oct 2007 01:12:25 PM |
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In article <1193180934.818940.272420@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com> skyeyes <skyeyes@dakotacom.net> writes:
On Oct 23, 3:45 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <B_mdnZ5DIK3f6IPanZ2dnUVZ_gqdn...@comcast.com> "Michelle Malkin" <hypati...@comcast.net> writes:
Bhanwara" <bhanwa...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1193171977.704351.243760@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
I used to think atheists are more moral than the average person.
This was based upon the following observations:
(A) Blackmail and bribery are immoral.
(B) Religions use blackmail and bribery to convince people.
(C) Atheists are honest enough to withstand
blackmail and bribery, to use their thought
processes honestly.
(D) Therefore they will use their though processes
honestly, in other things as well.
This was also confirmed by the fact that Gandhi was an atheist, and he
was decidely very moral.
As an aside, Gandhi being an atheist may be surprising to many
people. He never advertised it widely, because many very religious
people looked up to him. He used phrases such as "I used to think God
is truth. But later on, I understood that Truth is God". Which, to
the wise person, explains a journey from superstitious religion to
honest atheism. At the same time, it doesn't take away the Santa
Clause from those who need Him.
However, lately I have started having grave doubts about this
connection between atheism and morality.
If an individual like Christopher Hutchins - who is so afraid of dying
that he is very happy about lots of innocents' dying in Iraq just so
he can be less fearful - is also an atheist, could there truly be a
connection between atheism and morality?
Moreover, apparently Hutchins is not an atheist because of a search
for truth. Hutchins is an atheist because he wanted to eat pork, and
his God didn't want him to eat pork.
A lot of atheists, I see, also support someone like Hutchins.
Supporting an individual like that could hardly be an act of good
faith or any kind of morality, or any honest thought.
So is a connection between atheism and morality just a coincidence, or
are truth-seeking atheists more numerous than pork-lusting atheists?
- Bhanwara
http://blogspot.bhanwara.com/
You will find nitwits in any large group. Hitchens is very
smart about some things but extemely dumb about others.
But, for you to change your good thoughts about atheists
due to only one person isn't very smart of you.
Indeed.
And don't base your impresion on Dawkins, either.
Ah, but at least Dawkins isn't a pork-luster!
Yum, yum, piggie bum!!
He has *never* been
known to purchase Shake-N-Bake, and that's a fact.
Neither have I. Yet. But I really meant to, after reading
your post.
In fact, I shall probably not go on my long, long-overdue diet
until I give that a try.
And it's all your fault.
-- cary
.
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
24 Oct 2007 05:52:36 PM |
|
|
"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:ffo1u9$ob3$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
In article <1193180934.818940.272420@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com> skyeyes
<skyeyes@dakotacom.net> writes:
On Oct 23, 3:45 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <B_mdnZ5DIK3f6IPanZ2dnUVZ_gqdn...@comcast.com> "Michelle
Malkin" <hypati...@comcast.net> writes:
Bhanwara" <bhanwa...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1193171977.704351.243760@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
I used to think atheists are more moral than the average person.
This was based upon the following observations:
(A) Blackmail and bribery are immoral.
(B) Religions use blackmail and bribery to convince people.
(C) Atheists are honest enough to withstand
blackmail and bribery, to use their thought
processes honestly.
(D) Therefore they will use their though processes
honestly, in other things as well.
This was also confirmed by the fact that Gandhi was an atheist, and
he
was decidely very moral.
As an aside, Gandhi being an atheist may be surprising to many
people. He never advertised it widely, because many very religious
people looked up to him. He used phrases such as "I used to think
God
is truth. But later on, I understood that Truth is God". Which,
to
the wise person, explains a journey from superstitious religion to
honest atheism. At the same time, it doesn't take away the Santa
Clause from those who need Him.
However, lately I have started having grave doubts about this
connection between atheism and morality.
If an individual like Christopher Hutchins - who is so afraid of
dying
that he is very happy about lots of innocents' dying in Iraq just
so
he can be less fearful - is also an atheist, could there truly be a
connection between atheism and morality?
Moreover, apparently Hutchins is not an atheist because of a search
for truth. Hutchins is an atheist because he wanted to eat pork,
and
his God didn't want him to eat pork.
A lot of atheists, I see, also support someone like Hutchins.
Supporting an individual like that could hardly be an act of good
faith or any kind of morality, or any honest thought.
So is a connection between atheism and morality just a coincidence,
or
are truth-seeking atheists more numerous than pork-lusting
atheists?
- Bhanwara
http://blogspot.bhanwara.com/
You will find nitwits in any large group. Hitchens is very
smart about some things but extemely dumb about others.
But, for you to change your good thoughts about atheists
due to only one person isn't very smart of you.
Indeed.
And don't base your impresion on Dawkins, either.
Ah, but at least Dawkins isn't a pork-luster!
Yum, yum, piggie bum!!
He has *never* been
known to purchase Shake-N-Bake, and that's a fact.
Neither have I. Yet. But I really meant to, after reading
your post.
I have. Yuckies. Make your own breading. It will
probably be a lot healthier.
In fact, I shall probably not go on my long, long-overdue diet
until I give that a try.
And it's all your fault.
Sigh. And, now I have to buy a pack of bacon
before I start my diet. Oh, well, at least I've
recovered enough from the flu to start exercizing.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
When fascism comes to America, it will be
wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross -
Sinclair Lewis
-- cary
.
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism and Morality |
25 Oct 2007 12:43:48 PM |
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On Oct 24, 11:12 am, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
<Snip for bandwidth>
In fact, I shall probably not go on my long, long-overdue diet
until I give that a try.
And it's all your fault.
And the best thing to go with Shake-N-Bake pork chops is Rice Riloff:
1-1/2 cups white or brown rice
1/2 cup angel hair pasta ("Capellini"), broken up into short lengths
2 cups of finely minced onion
2-2/3 cups chicken broth
1-1/3 cups dry white vermouth
2 Knorr chicken bouillon cubes
2 Tbsp clarified butter
olive oil
white pepper, to taste
salt to taste, *if* the bouillon doesn't make the dish salty enough
already
1. In a large saute pan or dutch ove, heat clarified butter and an
equal amount of olive oil. [If you're on a low-cholesterol diet, omit
the butter and use only olive oil; however, the dish won't taste quite
as good if you do.]
2. Using medium heat, gently sweat the minced onions for approx. 10
minutes in the oil-butter combination, but do not brown.
3. Add the rice and the angel hair pasta. Saute the entire mixture
for about 15 minutes, stirring frequently, until the grains of rice
turn milky. Do not brown.
4. Meanwhile, heat the chicken broth gently in a saucepan. Crumble
in the bouillion cubes; stir to dissolve.
5. Put the rice-onion-pasta mixture into a large baking dish with a
tight-fitting cover. Add the chicken broth with the dissolved
bouillion. Add the dry white vermouth.
6. Stir with a fork to level. Cover and bake at 350 F for
approximately 35 minutes, or until the rice-pasta mixture absorbs all
the liquid (increase the baking time if you are using brown rice).
You may uncover the dish to check it after it has cooked for at least
20 minutes.
Yummy-yummy-yummyyummyyummyyummyyummyyummy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Brenda
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