| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"words of truth" |
| Date: |
26 Sep 2005 07:29:29 AM |
| Object: |
Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
http://imagoveritatis.myatts.net/comments.php?id=24_0_1_0_C
Don't Believe It
I ran into a blog that claims to be based on "reason" alone and it
turned out to be, predictably, run by an Objectivist (with a capital
"O" that means a disciple of Ayn Rand). Objectivism is a form of
atheism, though they tend to focus much more on the positive aspects of
their system rather than getting hung up on the God thing, unlike the
folks over at infidels.org. Anyway, that prompted to me to pull off the
shelf one of the many books that I have bought and put away for future
reading, (whenever that is - heh, heh) and before I knew it I was well
into it. The book is John Robbins' Without A Prayer: Ayn Rand and the
Close of Her System, available here.
Well, the book is a masterpiece, and though I don't follow every detail
of Gordon Clark's philosophy which figures heavily in Robbins'
argument, by the end of the chapter on epistemology he has reduced
Rand's system to a pile of rubble that is hopelessly beyond salvaging.
In fact, one cannot but conclude, after reading this analysis, that
Rand's system, rather than being founded upon reason, is profoundly
irrational. It surely requires a blind leap of faith to grasp. I won't
repeat the arguments here; the reader is encouraged to get the book and
see.
So, in that vein, I have been scrounging around the web to see what
else there is in the blogosphere (hey I'm getting into this new lingo!)
when I came across this piece from Tertius, who complains about
atheists who pretend that they do not have a world view, but rather
that they simply lack a belief in God. He calls this atheism lite -
well put I think - because it IS a cop out, as he shows. I have run
across this kind of thing, of course and after analyzing atheism I came
up with at least four positive philosophical assertions that
necessariliy follow from the denial of the existence of God, which are
discussed on page 10 of my conversations with atheists and which I will
quote here:
So when the atheist denies or says he does not believe in a God, he is
necessarily making a number of positive world view presuppositions
about the nature of the universe. What are some of these? At least the
following:
1) The universe is self-sufficient in its existence and operations. It
is autonomous and not dependent upon another external entity, but
functions based on the laws of nature which determine its character.
2) The principles of knowledge or interpretation of the universe are
contained within and derived from the universe itself. There is no need
for a revelation or interpretation of the universe from a vantage point
outside of the universe. Since there is no outside the universe,
according to the atheist, no such revelation could exist in any case.
Therefore, the ultimate reference point for predication and
interpretation is a principle such as logic, sense perception,
intuition, all of which must exist in the universe, and which were
derived ultimately from human reason. The human mind is autonomous and
is adequate to discover truth on its own, using its own methods. All
truth claims must pass the test of human reason. There is no higher
authority.
3) Right and wrong are relative terms that describe social norms
developed by humankind to enhance its survival and pleasure. There is
no absolute right and wrong and in the end, it is the autonomous human
mind that legislates morality.
4) There is no discernible purpose to history or in the operations and
existence of the universe. The universe is the ultimate reality and it
is impersonal and unconcerned about us or our fate. It is simply there
and appears to be what it is largely as a result of chance. The human
future is undetermined, since there is no divine plan governing it. The
meaning of life is what we make of it based on the decisions of our
autonomous wills, and there is no final meaning in the end.
Each of these four notions corresponds to an interpretation of the four
areas that define a world view: ontology (the nature of reality or
being), epistemology (the theory of how we have and justify knowledge),
ethics (the theory of the ultimate good and of moral action), and
teleology (the theory of the purpose of it all). Thus, we see that the
denial of belief in God necessarily implies a basic set of world view
assumptions (axioms or presuppositions) that form a positive
interpretation of the state of affairs.
So the atheist really has no excuse and nowhere to hide. The assertion
that atheism is just a denial is merely a smokescreen to avoid having
to mount a defense of his position. But that emperor is stark naked.
The atheist who wants any intellectual respect is both philosophically
and morally obligated to defend his beliefs as a system, and that means
defending the above assertions. And that puts his whole system up for
discussion. Once we open that door then it is only a matter of time
before the inherent irrationality of atheism reveals itself and the
atheist has to look squarely in the face that fact that his whole
system is built on a leap of faith, and a blind one at that.
.
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| User: "Jim07D5" |
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| Title: Re: ID and Science |
19 Oct 2005 01:12:07 PM |
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Dave Lister <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> said:
<...>
<...> How do you think most people who become financially
successful make it?
Even today, in the United States, if there is a good idea and a will
there's a way.
You don't know anything about how he got started. He basically lied to
IBM about "DOS" and Digital Research CPM got canned as the OS for the
IBM PC. The good idea that Gates had was to keep ownership of the OS and
just license to IBM.
This reminds me of a New Yorker cartoon caption: "Don't forget: we're
not talking about ethics, we're talking about business ethics."
--- Jim07D5
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| User: "Joshua Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: ID and Science |
18 Oct 2005 12:27:21 AM |
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"Kelo Disaster" <goingoing@gone.net> wrote in
news:Gr%4f.14361$D8.10755@okepread03:
"Dave Lister" <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96F2DD16CA31retsildivad33hotmail@68.6.19.6...
"Kelo Disaster" <goingoing@gone.net> wrote in
news:s0%4f.14360$D8.4062 @okepread03:
"Dave Lister" <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96F2D70D52A7Dretsildivad33hotmail@68.6.19.6...
"Kelo Disaster" <goingoing@gone.net> wrote in
news:ICU4f.14337$D8.6872@okepread03:
Meanwhile I look around at the world and the successful
countries, with strong economies and healthy people, have high
quality
mandatory
public education.
They also eat meat, drink milk, work and dream. They also have a
high standard of living because of technology, services and job
opportunities provided to them by industrious individuals.
Individuals
like Bill Gates and Michael Dell just to name a couple.
Neither of who would be considered standar products of the
educational system, being mavericks who dropped out at one point
or another.
BINGO.
The point, loon, is that you can't use them to make any statement
about
the
educational system one way or the other.
Sure I can, they represent the difference between individual
accomplishment and drones turned out for a preconceived society and
industry.
They are an aberration. Most dropouts are unsuccessful.
Have you ever noticed, here, how easy it is to gather the
congregations of the atheists and the evolutionists? Ring the church
bell and the drones gather and they all sing with a single voice. I'm
telling you the thoroughness of the control of thought over these
people is something to behold. The results of the techniques used are
obviously impressive.
George Orwell had his act together.
Your stupidity is equivilant to free thinking, loon. Your tirades
against evolution are humerous at best.
--
----
Paraphrasing Bill Maher, Bush has lost, under his five year watch, two
skyscrapers,part of the Pentagon, four airliners, thousands of American
lives, a huge economic surplus, the trust of the American people, a
Space Shuttle, and now an ENTIRE MAJOR CITY.
But Republicans say, "Bush can not be blamed" or "It's Clinton's
fault."
What will be the next disaster for which Bush can't be blamed?
.
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| User: "Jim07D5" |
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| Title: Re: ID and Science |
18 Oct 2005 12:04:00 AM |
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Dave Lister <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> said:
"Kelo Disaster" <goingoing@gone.net> wrote in news:s0%4f.14360$D8.4062
@okepread03:
"Dave Lister" <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96F2D70D52A7Dretsildivad33hotmail@68.6.19.6...
"Kelo Disaster" <goingoing@gone.net> wrote in
news:ICU4f.14337$D8.6872@okepread03:
Meanwhile I look around at the world and the successful countries,
with strong economies and healthy people, have high quality mandatory
public education.
They also eat meat, drink milk, work and dream. They also have a high
standard of living because of technology, services and job
opportunities provided to them by industrious individuals. Individuals
like Bill Gates and Michael Dell just to name a couple.
Neither of who would be considered standar products of the educational
system, being mavericks who dropped out at one point or another.
BINGO.
The point, loon, is that you can't use them to make any statement about the
educational system one way or the other.
Oh sure you can if you are OK that 2 in 1000 are financially
successful dropouts. The other 998 are not heard from.
As in Vegas - winners talk, losers walk.
--- Jim07D5
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| User: "Joshua Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: ID and Science |
18 Oct 2005 12:25:38 AM |
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Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in
news:ad09l1lokhdjhvs70lpfic09bfs2a0ma6c@4ax.com:
Dave Lister <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> said:
"Kelo Disaster" <goingoing@gone.net> wrote in news:s0%4f.14360$D8.4062
@okepread03:
"Dave Lister" <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96F2D70D52A7Dretsildivad33hotmail@68.6.19.6...
"Kelo Disaster" <goingoing@gone.net> wrote in
news:ICU4f.14337$D8.6872@okepread03:
Meanwhile I look around at the world and the successful
countries, with strong economies and healthy people, have high
quality mandatory public education.
They also eat meat, drink milk, work and dream. They also have a
high standard of living because of technology, services and job
opportunities provided to them by industrious individuals.
Individuals like Bill Gates and Michael Dell just to name a
couple.
Neither of who would be considered standar products of the
educational system, being mavericks who dropped out at one point or
another.
BINGO.
The point, loon, is that you can't use them to make any statement
about the educational system one way or the other.
Oh sure you can if you are OK that 2 in 1000 are financially
successful dropouts. The other 998 are not heard from.
Most dropouts are not successful.
--
----
Paraphrasing Bill Maher, Bush has lost, under his five year watch, two
skyscrapers,part of the Pentagon, four airliners, thousands of American
lives, a huge economic surplus, the trust of the American people, a
Space Shuttle, and now an ENTIRE MAJOR CITY.
But Republicans say, "Bush can not be blamed" or "It's Clinton's
fault."
What will be the next disaster for which Bush can't be blamed?
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: ID and Science |
17 Oct 2005 04:34:14 PM |
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On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:22:27 -0500, in alt.atheism , "Kelo Disaster"
<goingoing@gone.net> in <ICU4f.14337$D8.6872@okepread03> wrote:
"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:abu7l1prk7qsk79485fvl15g81do9nsfoq@4ax.com...
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:16:01 -0500, in alt.atheism , "Kelo Disaster"
<goingoing@gone.net> in <QTR4f.14333$D8.7821@okepread03> wrote:
"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:rnp7l1hbja95penrvgohpnvoghem70rhhp@4ax.com...
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:35:22 -0400, in alt.atheism , MikeSoja
<msoja9@newsguy.com> in <c9f7l15m4l5hmq03k0jii77ho8j3m9ca0t@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:20:00 -0700, 1973 Dead
<zepp1973#2211finestplanet.com@> posted:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:49:54 -0400, MikeSoja <msoja9@newsguy.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 06:11:34 -0700, 1973 Dead
<zepp1973#2211finestplanet.com@> posted:
You forget the issue here is that the IDiots want it taught AS A
SCIENCE.
You're free to teach it as a philosophy, a religion, or a practical
joke. But you cannot simultaneously claim science is no more valid
than ID, and then beg for ID to be taught as science as a way of
validating it.
Fat, stupid, commie pig Brian Jamieson prattles on about what he
thinks people should be "free" to do.
Oops. I mean he prattles on about what people *shouldn't* be "free"
to do.
Fat, stupid, commie pig Brian Jamieson thinks people should be
"free" to be forced to learn the things that fat, stupid, commie pig
Brian Jamieson thinks they should be forced to learn.
So you're one of these morons who thinks ID should be taught as
science, right?
What I think is that only a fat, stupid, commie pig would think he
had the right to force his fellow citizens to school their children
contrary to their own values.
Do parents get to pick and choose over the entire curriculum or only
in the science course?
Public funded schools should be relegated to history as quickly as
possible.
You have your right to an opinion. When you show me a modern
successful society that follows that advice I will consider it.
The first thing to consider in your statement is "modern successful
society". Since modern seems to be redefined about twice a year theses days,
*(which puts schools behind an infinitely large 8 ball) and successful, a
personal perspective, you don't give me much to work with.
So tell me what you consider a valid comparison. Expand modern as you
see fit and justify it. I am asking you to make your argument for your
position.
Meanwhile I look around at the world and the successful countries,
with strong economies and healthy people, have high quality mandatory
public education.
They also eat meat, drink milk, work and dream. They also have a high
standard of living because of technology, services and job opportunities
provided to them by industrious individuals. Individuals like Bill Gates and
Michael Dell just to name a couple.
When you get to a point let me know.
You are free to choose what characteristics you want
in a society.
That's a lie.
No, it is not. I did not say achieve, none of us are omnipotent, we
all live in a society. You are free, as much as one can be free, to
choose what you want though. And free to convince me that your
standards should be mine.
But I want some evidence your ideas achieve my goals
before I adopt them.
That statement is dumb.
That you don't understand it does not make it dumb. I know what I want
from a society. If you have a better way to achieve that then I would
adopt your methods. Or you can try to convince me that my goals are
wrong.
It is also the evidence you are looking for as to
why public schools need to be eliminated as quickly as possible.
That you don't understand things is not a good argument against public
schools.
My ideas are suited to *my* goals. Why the hell should they be suited to
yours?
And why the hell should I care about your goals. You don't want public
schools, we have them, you loose. When you figure out that in
political debates you want to change the mind of someone let me know.
*It is impossible for public schools to keep up. People that come out of
school into industry are generally 1-3 years behind current technology and
methods of production. The only thing public funded schools are good for is
self-perpetuation.
Again, when you can show me someone doing better with a different
system we can talk.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
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| User: "Kelo Disaster" |
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| Title: Re: ID and Science |
17 Oct 2005 05:15:39 PM |
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"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:gu58l194ftrl9apj5rp0be1aauo5s4m8tl@4ax.com...
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:22:27 -0500, in alt.atheism , "Kelo Disaster"
<goingoing@gone.net> in <ICU4f.14337$D8.6872@okepread03> wrote:
"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:abu7l1prk7qsk79485fvl15g81do9nsfoq@4ax.com...
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:16:01 -0500, in alt.atheism , "Kelo Disaster"
<goingoing@gone.net> in <QTR4f.14333$D8.7821@okepread03> wrote:
"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote
in
message news:rnp7l1hbja95penrvgohpnvoghem70rhhp@4ax.com...
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:35:22 -0400, in alt.atheism , MikeSoja
<msoja9@newsguy.com> in <c9f7l15m4l5hmq03k0jii77ho8j3m9ca0t@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:20:00 -0700, 1973 Dead
<zepp1973#2211finestplanet.com@> posted:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:49:54 -0400, MikeSoja <msoja9@newsguy.com>
wrote:
(snip dronish one at a time answers to get to the point)
But I want some evidence your ideas achieve my goals
before I adopt them.
That statement is dumb.
That you don't understand it does not make it dumb.
Irony noted.
I know what I want
from a society. If you have a better way to achieve that then I would
adopt your methods. Or you can try to convince me that my goals are
wrong.
It is also the evidence you are looking for as to
why public schools need to be eliminated as quickly as possible.
That you don't understand things is not a good argument against public
schools.
Additional irony noted.
My ideas are suited to *my* goals. Why the hell should they be suited to
yours?
And why the hell should I care about your goals.
"But I want some evidence your ideas achieve my goals
before I adopt them."
Irony complete.
You don't want public
schools, we have them, you loose. When you figure out that in
political debates you want to change the mind of someone let me know.
In other words, Matt has the guns on his side and he will kill my ***** and
anyone else who doesn't want to do it his way.
Commie rat bastards. Welcome to the USSA. Talk to me when I'm in your Gulag,
where your hired thugs will be trying to change my mind.
*It is impossible for public schools to keep up. People that come out of
school into industry are generally 1-3 years behind current technology
and
methods of production. The only thing public funded schools are good for
is
self-perpetuation.
Again, when you can show me someone doing better with a different
system we can talk.
I don't associate with thieves and besides; your socialistic, utopian
nightmare is piling up around your ankles as we speak. Who the hell wants to
board a sinking ship?
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: ID and Science |
17 Oct 2005 05:29:35 PM |
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On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:15:39 -0500, in alt.atheism , "Kelo Disaster"
<goingoing@gone.net> in <%pV4f.14339$D8.6175@okepread03> wrote:
"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:gu58l194ftrl9apj5rp0be1aauo5s4m8tl@4ax.com...
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:22:27 -0500, in alt.atheism , "Kelo Disaster"
<goingoing@gone.net> in <ICU4f.14337$D8.6872@okepread03> wrote:
"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:abu7l1prk7qsk79485fvl15g81do9nsfoq@4ax.com...
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:16:01 -0500, in alt.atheism , "Kelo Disaster"
<goingoing@gone.net> in <QTR4f.14333$D8.7821@okepread03> wrote:
"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote
in
message news:rnp7l1hbja95penrvgohpnvoghem70rhhp@4ax.com...
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:35:22 -0400, in alt.atheism , MikeSoja
<msoja9@newsguy.com> in <c9f7l15m4l5hmq03k0jii77ho8j3m9ca0t@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:20:00 -0700, 1973 Dead
<zepp1973#2211finestplanet.com@> posted:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:49:54 -0400, MikeSoja <msoja9@newsguy.com>
wrote:
(snip dronish one at a time answers to get to the point)
But I want some evidence your ideas achieve my goals
before I adopt them.
That statement is dumb.
That you don't understand it does not make it dumb.
Irony noted.
I know what I want
from a society. If you have a better way to achieve that then I would
adopt your methods. Or you can try to convince me that my goals are
wrong.
It is also the evidence you are looking for as to
why public schools need to be eliminated as quickly as possible.
That you don't understand things is not a good argument against public
schools.
Additional irony noted.
My ideas are suited to *my* goals. Why the hell should they be suited to
yours?
And why the hell should I care about your goals.
"But I want some evidence your ideas achieve my goals
before I adopt them."
Irony complete.
You don't want public
schools, we have them, you loose. When you figure out that in
political debates you want to change the mind of someone let me know.
In other words, Matt has the guns on his side and he will kill my ***** and
anyone else who doesn't want to do it his way.
Interesting other words. Not correct, but interesting. I was not aware
that I alone was the entire U.S. government.
Commie rat bastards. Welcome to the USSA. Talk to me when I'm in your Gulag,
where your hired thugs will be trying to change my mind.
ROTFLMAO. So now we have public school == communism. Feel free to find
a society that meets your needs.
*It is impossible for public schools to keep up. People that come out of
school into industry are generally 1-3 years behind current technology
and
methods of production. The only thing public funded schools are good for
is
self-perpetuation.
Again, when you can show me someone doing better with a different
system we can talk.
I don't associate with thieves and besides; your socialistic, utopian
nightmare is piling up around your ankles as we speak. Who the hell wants to
board a sinking ship?
Then, by all means, go elsewhere.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
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| User: "MikeSoja" |
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| Title: Re: ID and Science |
17 Oct 2005 02:52:18 PM |
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On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:21:43 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> posted:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:16:01 -0500, in alt.atheism , "Kelo Disaster"
<goingoing@gone.net> in <QTR4f.14333$D8.7821@okepread03> wrote:
Public funded schools should be relegated to history as quickly as possible.
You have your right to an opinion. When you show me a modern
successful society that follows that advice I will consider it.
I guess you would have been against the American revolution, eh,
Matt?
Mike Soja
Meanwhile I look around at the world and the successful countries,
with strong economies and healthy people, have high quality mandatory
public education. You are free to choose what characteristics you want
in a society. But I want some evidence your ideas achieve my goals
before I adopt them.
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: ID and Science |
17 Oct 2005 04:00:21 PM |
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On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:52:18 -0400, in alt.atheism , MikeSoja
<msoja9@newsguy.com> in <r508l199rdkq9cekk01352lhi9t1rpe1ud@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:21:43 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> posted:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:16:01 -0500, in alt.atheism , "Kelo Disaster"
<goingoing@gone.net> in <QTR4f.14333$D8.7821@okepread03> wrote:
Public funded schools should be relegated to history as quickly as possible.
You have your right to an opinion. When you show me a modern
successful society that follows that advice I will consider it.
I guess you would have been against the American revolution, eh,
Matt?
They had examples of democracies and well reasoned arguments on why
their proposed changes, if they had not been done in the past, would
work well. You, OTOH, seem to use personal attack as your primary
weapon. I do happen to have examples of societies with no or quite
poor public education to use as an example. Let me know when you have
a reasoned argument for why the U.S. would not be like them after we
eliminated public education. Telling me it is already in a poor state
just tells me we need to put more effort into making it better, not
abandon it.
Meanwhile I look around at the world and the successful countries,
with strong economies and healthy people, have high quality mandatory
public education. You are free to choose what characteristics you want
in a society. But I want some evidence your ideas achieve my goals
before I adopt them.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: ID and Science |
17 Oct 2005 01:16:08 PM |
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Matt Silberstein wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:35:22 -0400, in alt.atheism , MikeSoja
<msoja9@newsguy.com> in <c9f7l15m4l5hmq03k0jii77ho8j3m9ca0t@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:20:00 -0700, 1973 Dead
<zepp1973#2211finestplanet.com@> posted:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:49:54 -0400, MikeSoja <msoja9@newsguy.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 06:11:34 -0700, 1973 Dead
<zepp1973#2211finestplanet.com@> posted:
You forget the issue here is that the IDiots want it taught AS A
SCIENCE.
You're free to teach it as a philosophy, a religion, or a practical
joke. But you cannot simultaneously claim science is no more valid
than ID, and then beg for ID to be taught as science as a way of
validating it.
Fat, stupid, commie pig Brian Jamieson prattles on about what he
thinks people should be "free" to do.
Oops. I mean he prattles on about what people *shouldn't* be "free"
to do.
Fat, stupid, commie pig Brian Jamieson thinks people should be
"free" to be forced to learn the things that fat, stupid, commie pig
Brian Jamieson thinks they should be forced to learn.
So you're one of these morons who thinks ID should be taught as
science, right?
What I think is that only a fat, stupid, commie pig would think he
had the right to force his fellow citizens to school their children
contrary to their own values.
Do parents get to pick and choose over the entire curriculum or only
in the science course?
The whole principle of secular public school is uniform (i.e.,
enforced) curricula. The parent who wishes to preserve her culture
through her children has the same choice as one condemned:
For your noose, would you prefer hemp or sisal?
TCross
.
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| User: "Jim07D5" |
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| Title: Re: ID and Science |
17 Oct 2005 01:38:34 PM |
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|
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> said:
<...>
The whole principle of secular public school is uniform (i.e.,
enforced) curricula.
There are indeed, state legal standards for the education of children,
but it is not because of the principle of secular public schools. It
is a broader principle. It applies to secular public schools, secular
private schools, religious private schools, and home schooling, all of
which are legal options in the US if that's what we are talking about.
...The parent who wishes to preserve her culture
through her children has the same choice as one condemned:
I love the rhetoric of extremism. It repels the very support that
could help it.
If her culture involves doing things that are illegal to do to her
children, or involves teaching them to do illegal things, she will be
condemned to deal with the legal consequences.
Of course, the US legal system allows her to seek redress of
grievances. She is even free to post extremist rhetoric that repels
the support that could help her.
--- Jim07D5
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Science |
17 Oct 2005 02:27:33 PM |
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|
On 17 Oct 2005 11:16:08 -0700, in alt.atheism , "Terry Cross"
<tcross77@hotmail.com> in
<1129572968.099361.32130@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:35:22 -0400, in alt.atheism , MikeSoja
<msoja9@newsguy.com> in <c9f7l15m4l5hmq03k0jii77ho8j3m9ca0t@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:20:00 -0700, 1973 Dead
<zepp1973#2211finestplanet.com@> posted:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:49:54 -0400, MikeSoja <msoja9@newsguy.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 06:11:34 -0700, 1973 Dead
<zepp1973#2211finestplanet.com@> posted:
You forget the issue here is that the IDiots want it taught AS A
SCIENCE.
You're free to teach it as a philosophy, a religion, or a practical
joke. But you cannot simultaneously claim science is no more valid
than ID, and then beg for ID to be taught as science as a way of
validating it.
Fat, stupid, commie pig Brian Jamieson prattles on about what he
thinks people should be "free" to do.
Oops. I mean he prattles on about what people *shouldn't* be "free"
to do.
Fat, stupid, commie pig Brian Jamieson thinks people should be
"free" to be forced to learn the things that fat, stupid, commie pig
Brian Jamieson thinks they should be forced to learn.
So you're one of these morons who thinks ID should be taught as
science, right?
What I think is that only a fat, stupid, commie pig would think he
had the right to force his fellow citizens to school their children
contrary to their own values.
Do parents get to pick and choose over the entire curriculum or only
in the science course?
The whole principle of secular public school is uniform (i.e.,
enforced) curricula.
Almost all schools have uniform/enforced curricula. The question is
only who determines that.
The parent who wishes to preserve her culture
through her children has the same choice as one condemned:
For your noose, would you prefer hemp or sisal?
That parent certainly has that choice in the U.S. Schooling is
mandatory but parents can choose to send their child to a private
school. And before you object, I know that they are already "paying"
for the public school. That is what happens in a community, people pay
for things of value to the community even if it is not of value to
them. We all pay for, and benefit from the public schools. If someone
wants the extra (to them) benefit of a private schools they can pay
for that. Just like I benefit from a public library, but I can also
buy a personal copy of a book. I hope that when parents send their
children to a private school to "preserver" the "culture" (I like that
presentation, btw, it is clear but neutral) they care about other
aspects of the education as well. It is a great thing to preserve,
say, language and ethnic history, but that does not mean abandoning
all other considerations. I would hope that the history class conforms
to our best available knowledge. And I would hope that the science
classes would conform to our best available science as well. I don't
want to force parents (and don't want the power to force them) but I
really hope they choose knowledge over ignorance.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
|
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| User: "MikeSoja" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Science |
17 Oct 2005 02:55:38 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:27:33 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> posted:
<snips>
That is what happens in a community, people pay
for things of value to the community even if it is not of value to
them. We all pay for, and benefit from the public schools.
I understand that everyone "pay[s]", Matt, under threat of
incarceration or impoverishment or both, but what "benefit" do we
receive from the vast swamps of ignorance and failure currently
flowing out of public schools across the land?
Mike Soja
.
|
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|
| User: "Joshua Calvert" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Science |
17 Oct 2005 10:47:21 PM |
|
|
MikeSoja <msoja9@newsguy.com> wrote in
news:h808l1th2sjc66vcljfe12vie7k6nk5cmd@4ax.com:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:27:33 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> posted:
<snips>
That is what happens in a community, people pay
for things of value to the community even if it is not of value to
them. We all pay for, and benefit from the public schools.
I understand that everyone "pay[s]", Matt, under threat of
incarceration or impoverishment or both, but what "benefit" do we
receive from the vast swamps of ignorance and failure currently
flowing out of public schools across the land?
Talk about hyperbole. Most public schools do a very good job.
--
----
Paraphrasing Bill Maher, Bush has lost, under his five year watch, two
skyscrapers,part of the Pentagon, four airliners, thousands of American
lives, a huge economic surplus, the trust of the American people, a Space
Shuttle, and now an ENTIRE MAJOR CITY.
But Republicans say, "Bush can not be blamed" or "It's Clinton's fault."
What will be the next disaster for which Bush can't be blamed?
.
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Science |
17 Oct 2005 10:56:13 PM |
|
|
Joshua Calvert wrote:
MikeSoja <msoja9@newsguy.com> wrote in
news:h808l1th2sjc66vcljfe12vie7k6nk5cmd@4ax.com:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:27:33 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> posted:
<snips>
That is what happens in a community, people pay
for things of value to the community even if it is not of value to
them. We all pay for, and benefit from the public schools.
I understand that everyone "pay[s]", Matt, under threat of
incarceration or impoverishment or both, but what "benefit" do we
receive from the vast swamps of ignorance and failure currently
flowing out of public schools across the land?
Talk about hyperbole. Most public schools do a very good job.
Test scores are falling, colleges are lowering standards, college age
students are unable to read, younger and younger students are engaging
in sex, drugs, gangs, deliberate malnutrition, body
piercing-for-fashion, and crime. Many sophisticated forms of speech
are falling into disuse, and more ignorant usages are coming into
fashion. Fewer Americans are employable.
Gernally speaking, modern Americans are less able after 12 years of
schooling now than they were after 6 years of scholling a century ago.
Yes of course, the public schools are doing a swell job.
But just what job do you consider the public schools should be doing?
TCross
.
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| User: "Joshua Calvert" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Science |
17 Oct 2005 11:28:50 PM |
|
|
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:1129607773.440729.270790@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Joshua Calvert wrote:
MikeSoja <msoja9@newsguy.com> wrote in
news:h808l1th2sjc66vcljfe12vie7k6nk5cmd@4ax.com:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:27:33 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> posted:
<snips>
That is what happens in a community, people pay
for things of value to the community even if it is not of value to
them. We all pay for, and benefit from the public schools.
I understand that everyone "pay[s]", Matt, under threat of
incarceration or impoverishment or both, but what "benefit" do we
receive from the vast swamps of ignorance and failure currently
flowing out of public schools across the land?
Talk about hyperbole. Most public schools do a very good job.
Test scores are falling, colleges are lowering standards, college age
students are unable to read, younger and younger students are engaging
in sex, drugs, gangs, deliberate malnutrition, body
piercing-for-fashion, and crime. Many sophisticated forms of speech
are falling into disuse, and more ignorant usages are coming into
fashion. Fewer Americans are employable.
These are not the failure of schools.
Gernally speaking, modern Americans are less able after 12 years of
schooling now than they were after 6 years of scholling a century ago.
In some cases yes. In most, schools do a good job.
Yes of course, the public schools are doing a swell job.
But just what job do you consider the public schools should be doing?
Not making up for bad parents.
--
----
Paraphrasing Bill Maher, Bush has lost, under his five year watch, two
skyscrapers,part of the Pentagon, four airliners, thousands of American
lives, a huge economic surplus, the trust of the American people, a
Space Shuttle, and now an ENTIRE MAJOR CITY.
But Republicans say, "Bush can not be blamed" or "It's Clinton's
fault."
What will be the next disaster for which Bush can't be blamed?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Terry Cross" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Science |
18 Oct 2005 09:33:03 PM |
|
|
Joshua Calvert wrote:
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:1129607773.440729.270790@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Joshua Calvert wrote:
MikeSoja <msoja9@newsguy.com> wrote in
news:h808l1th2sjc66vcljfe12vie7k6nk5cmd@4ax.com:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:27:33 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> posted:
<snips>
That is what happens in a community, people pay
for things of value to the community even if it is not of value to
them. We all pay for, and benefit from the public schools.
I understand that everyone "pay[s]", Matt, under threat of
incarceration or impoverishment or both, but what "benefit" do we
receive from the vast swamps of ignorance and failure currently
flowing out of public schools across the land?
Talk about hyperbole. Most public schools do a very good job.
Test scores are falling, colleges are lowering standards, college age
students are unable to read, younger and younger students are engaging
in sex, drugs, gangs, deliberate malnutrition, body
piercing-for-fashion, and crime. Many sophisticated forms of speech
are falling into disuse, and more ignorant usages are coming into
fashion. Fewer Americans are employable.
These are not the failure of schools.
Of course not. When good, thank the schools. When bad, blame the
parents. Basic rule of propaganda.
Gernally speaking, modern Americans are less able after 12 years of
schooling now than they were after 6 years of scholling a century ago.
In some cases yes. In most, schools do a good job.
Same vague mantra. Even the standardized tests show failure, decade
after decade.
Yes of course, the public schools are doing a swell job.
But just what job do you consider the public schools should be doing?
Not making up for bad parents.
You did not answer the question, of course.
All those "bad parents" went to public school. So we should add "bad
parenting" to the list of school failures, - because, Charlie, there is
no one else to blame for the failure of America.
TCross
.
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| User: "Joshua Calvert" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Science |
18 Oct 2005 09:49:43 PM |
|
|
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:1129689183.238750.68230@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
Of course not. When good, thank the schools. When bad, blame the
parents. Basic rule of propaganda.
What are you talking about? I put both blame and credit on the parents.
No good school can make up for bad parenting, and likewise, no bad
school is going to undo good parenting.
In some cases yes. In most, schools do a good job.
Same vague mantra. Even the standardized tests show failure, decade
after decade.
Whip it out, then. Let's see the cites that show this across the board.
But just what job do you consider the public schools should be
doing?
Not making up for bad parents.
You did not answer the question, of course.
Of course I did, in another post here.
All those "bad parents" went to public school. So we should add "bad
parenting" to the list of school failures, -
Schools don't teach parenting. Do you want them to?
because, Charlie, there is
no one else to blame for the failure of America.
What failure of America?
--
----
Paraphrasing Bill Maher, Bush has lost, under his five year watch, two
skyscrapers,part of the Pentagon, four airliners, thousands of American
lives, a huge economic surplus, the trust of the American people, a
Space Shuttle, and now an ENTIRE MAJOR CITY.
But Republicans say, "Bush can not be blamed" or "It's Clinton's
fault."
What will be the next disaster for which Bush can't be blamed?
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Science |
17 Oct 2005 04:02:09 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:55:38 -0400, in alt.atheism , MikeSoja
<msoja9@newsguy.com> in <h808l1th2sjc66vcljfe12vie7k6nk5cmd@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:27:33 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> posted:
<snips>
That is what happens in a community, people pay
for things of value to the community even if it is not of value to
them. We all pay for, and benefit from the public schools.
I understand that everyone "pay[s]", Matt, under threat of
incarceration or impoverishment or both, but what "benefit" do we
receive from the vast swamps of ignorance and failure currently
flowing out of public schools across the land?
I am sorry you are so ignorant, I can only hope you succeed in
overcoming your handicap. Again, when you show me a benefit of not
having any public education I will look at it. I hope you have an
example of some county or sizable community that tried it and found
that it worked. Otherwise the solution is to improve out current
system, not abandon it.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
|
|
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| User: "MikeSoja" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Science |
17 Oct 2005 02:15:54 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:02:26 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> posted:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:35:22 -0400, in alt.atheism , MikeSoja
<msoja9@newsguy.com> in <c9f7l15m4l5hmq03k0jii77ho8j3m9ca0t@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:20:00 -0700, 1973 Dead
<zepp1973#2211finestplanet.com@> posted:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:49:54 -0400, MikeSoja <msoja9@newsguy.com>
wrote:
Fat, stupid, commie pig Brian Jamieson thinks people should be
"free" to be forced to learn the things that fat, stupid, commie pig
Brian Jamieson thinks they should be forced to learn.
So you're one of these morons who thinks ID should be taught as
science, right?
What I think is that only a fat, stupid, commie pig would think he
had the right to force his fellow citizens to school their children
contrary to their own values.
Do parents get to pick and choose over the entire curriculum or only
in the science course?
Gosh, Matt, that's a toughy. I guess it depends on whether or not
you think most people are too stupid to appreciate the value of a
good education, whether or not you think most people are too stupid
to know how to evaluate their educational options, or whether or not
you think most people are too stupid to act on their own
evaluations.
If people are that stupid, Matt, then you need to go get that big
gun and point it at their heads and teach 'em exactly what you think
is good for 'em.
Of course, once you do that, you've tossed aside all pretense of
living in a "free" country, but, hey, if you can ask a stupid
question like you just asked, you're probably not too worried about
that anyway.
Mike Soja
.
|
|
|
| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Science |
17 Oct 2005 03:28:08 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:15:54 -0400, in alt.atheism , MikeSoja
<msoja9@newsguy.com> in <gpq7l1967ssakeff0gekrmji58f6ea6980@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:02:26 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> posted:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:35:22 -0400, in alt.atheism , MikeSoja
<msoja9@newsguy.com> in <c9f7l15m4l5hmq03k0jii77ho8j3m9ca0t@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:20:00 -0700, 1973 Dead
<zepp1973#2211finestplanet.com@> posted:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:49:54 -0400, MikeSoja <msoja9@newsguy.com>
wrote:
Fat, stupid, commie pig Brian Jamieson thinks people should be
"free" to be forced to learn the things that fat, stupid, commie pig
Brian Jamieson thinks they should be forced to learn.
So you're one of these morons who thinks ID should be taught as
science, right?
What I think is that only a fat, stupid, commie pig would think he
had the right to force his fellow citizens to school their children
contrary to their own values.
Do parents get to pick and choose over the entire curriculum or only
in the science course?
Gosh, Matt, that's a toughy. I guess it depends on whether or not
you think most people are too stupid to appreciate the value of a
good education, whether or not you think most people are too stupid
to know how to evaluate their educational options, or whether or not
you think most people are too stupid to act on their own
evaluations.
No, it depends on what concept of community I have and where I look
for practical working examples. If you know of successful societies
without a high quality standardized public education, let me know.
If people are that stupid, Matt, then you need to go get that big
gun and point it at their heads and teach 'em exactly what you think
is good for 'em.
What is "that stupid"? The OP wanted parents to have the right to
choose a particular aspect of the public education, I am trying to
find out what they meant. Are you against all public education or do
you think that parents should get to choose each and every aspect of
that education?>
Of course, once you do that, you've tossed aside all pretense of
living in a "free" country, but, hey, if you can ask a stupid
question like you just asked, you're probably not too worried about
that anyway.
Wow, lots of insults in your response, but very little on topic.
Mike Soja
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
|
|
|
| User: "Chris Hayes" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Science |
18 Oct 2005 12:18:12 PM |
|
|
Matt Silberstein wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:15:54 -0400, in alt.atheism , MikeSoja
<msoja9@newsguy.com> in <gpq7l1967ssakeff0gekrmji58f6ea6980@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:02:26 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> posted:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:35:22 -0400, in alt.atheism , MikeSoja
<msoja9@newsguy.com> in <c9f7l15m4l5hmq03k0jii77ho8j3m9ca0t@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:20:00 -0700, 1973 Dead
<zepp1973#2211finestplanet.com@> posted:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:49:54 -0400, MikeSoja <msoja9@newsguy.com>
wrote:
Fat, stupid, commie pig Brian Jamieson thinks people should be
"free" to be forced to learn the things that fat, stupid, commie pig
Brian Jamieson thinks they should be forced to learn.
So you're one of these morons who thinks ID should be taught as
science, right?
What I think is that only a fat, stupid, commie pig would think he
had the right to force his fellow citizens to school their children
contrary to their own values.
Do parents get to pick and choose over the entire curriculum or only
in the science course?
Gosh, Matt, that's a toughy. I guess it depends on whether or not
you think most people are too stupid to appreciate the value of a
good education, whether or not you think most people are too stupid
to know how to evaluate their educational options, or whether or not
you think most people are too stupid to act on their own
evaluations.
No, it depends on what concept of community I have and where I look
for practical working examples. If you know of successful societies
without a high quality standardized public education, let me know.
The United States, for one, is a highly successful society in the
Darwinian sense. It does not, however, have a high quality public
education system.
.
|
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| User: "topmind" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Science |
23 Oct 2005 12:34:07 PM |
|
|
The United States, for one, is a highly successful society
in the Darwinian sense. It does not, however, have a
high quality public education system.
Most of what is taught in school does not reflect what people do at
real jobs anyhow. Globalized labor has made science and technology too
expensive to do in the US. The US is becomming the Marketing Capital of
the world, not the technology capital. Our comparative advantage has
changed but the schools have not.
If the gov wants to subsidize technology for military purposes, then it
can start by stopping all the H-1B visas and tech offshoring. That is
probably cheaper than force-feeding science to students who want to be
marketers anyhow. They are subsidizing the wrong things.
-T-
.
|
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| User: "Jim07D5" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Science |
23 Oct 2005 06:49:49 PM |
|
|
"topmind" <topmind@technologist.com> said:
The United States, for one, is a highly successful society
in the Darwinian sense. It does not, however, have a
high quality public education system.
Most of what is taught in school does not reflect what people do at
real jobs anyhow. Globalized labor has made science and technology too
expensive to do in the US. The US is becomming the Marketing Capital of
the world, not the technology capital. Our comparative advantage has
changed but the schools have not.
If the gov wants to subsidize technology for military purposes, then it
can start by stopping all the H-1B visas and tech offshoring. That is
probably cheaper than force-feeding science to students who want to be
marketers anyhow. They are subsidizing the wrong things.
A prime example of the swing away from science to marketing is the
public relations campaign strategy of the Discovery Institute, seen in
the Wedge Document. ID is central to their strategy.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/wedge.html
--- Jim07D5
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Science |
18 Oct 2005 01:06:07 PM |
|
|
On 18 Oct 2005 10:18:12 -0700, in alt.atheism , "Chris Hayes"
<hayes12@fadmail.com> in
<1129655892.573024.307480@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote:
[snip]
No, it depends on what concept of community I have and where I look
for practical working examples. If you know of successful societies
without a high quality standardized public education, let me know.
The United States, for one, is a highly successful society in the
Darwinian sense. It does not, however, have a high quality public
education system.
It has a much better one that these people propose. And some of our
major economic problems come from the failings of our education.
Leaving this up to the market is not going to help us.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
|
|
|
| User: "Chris Hayes" |
|
| Title: Re: ID and Science |
23 Oct 2005 11:00:28 AM |
|
|
Matt Silberstein wrote:
On 18 Oct 2005 10:18:12 -0700, in alt.atheism , "Chris Hayes"
<hayes12@fadmail.com> in
<1129655892.573024.307480@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote:
[snip]
No, it depends on what concept of community I have and where I look
for practical working examples. If you know of successful societies
without a high quality standardized public education, let me know.
The United States, for one, is a highly successful society in the
Darwinian sense. It does not, however, have a high quality public
education system.
It has a much better one that these people propose. And some of our
major economic problems come from the failings of our education.
Leaving this up to the market is not going to help us.
If the schools stuck to things like math, English, and science, they
may not be half bad. The fact is that schools are more about
conditioning people than teaching them (i.e. teaching kids the common
folklore called "history"). The most important thing in our schools is
for the kids to learn how to follow the routine (example: let's say a
third grader plays hooky for a day to read _The Illiad_. He's punished
for truancy despite the fact that he's reading a classic most adults
(including teachers) haven't read).
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| User: "Jim07D5" |
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| Title: Re: ID and Science |
23 Oct 2005 11:46:53 AM |
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"Chris Hayes" <hayes12@fadmail.com> said:
Matt Silberstein wrote:
On 18 Oct 2005 10:18:12 -0700, in alt.atheism , "Chris Hayes"
<hayes12@fadmail.com> in
<1129655892.573024.307480@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote:
[snip]
No, it depends on what concept of community I have and where I look
for practical working examples. If you know of successful societies
without a high quality standardized public education, let me know.
The United States, for one, is a highly successful society in the
Darwinian sense. It does not, however, have a high quality public
education system.
It has a much better one that these people propose. And some of our
major economic problems come from the failings of our education.
Leaving this up to the market is not going to help us.
If the schools stuck to things like math, English, and science, they
may not be half bad. The fact is that schools are more about
conditioning people than teaching them (i.e. teaching kids the common
folklore called "history"). The most important thing in our schools is
for the kids to learn how to follow the routine (example: let's say a
third grader plays hooky for a day to read _The Illiad_. He's punished
for truancy despite the fact that he's reading a classic most adults
(including teachers) haven't read).
Like it or not, the socialization of savages is required if a society
is to survive.
--- Jim07D5
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| User: "MikeSoja" |
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| Title: Re: ID and Science |
17 Oct 2005 09:32:33 PM |
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On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:28:08 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> posted:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:15:54 -0400, in alt.atheism , MikeSoja
<msoja9@newsguy.com> in <gpq7l1967ssakeff0gekrmji58f6ea6980@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:02:26 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> posted:
Do parents get to pick and choose over the entire curriculum or only
in the science course?
Gosh, Matt, that's a toughy. I guess it depends on whether or not
you think most people are too stupid to appreciate the value of a
good education, whether or not you think most people are too stupid
to know how to evaluate their educational options, or whether or not
you think most people are too stupid to act on their own
evaluations.
No, it depends on what concept of community I have and where I look
for practical working examples.
Perhaps I was remiss, Matt, in significantly underestimating your
vapid ignorance. Forgive me.
Your "concept of community" is a small-minded excuse to run
roughshod over the rights of those who fail to form a competing
"concept of community" coalition with sufficient members to defeat
yours in the Democratic process. Of course, you're bound (in all it
senses) to mouth the usual platitudes about that Democratic process
while continuously glossing over the underlying truth: You're
pointing a gun at people's heads and forcing them to comport with
your narrow view of reality.
That's your first crime.
Your second stupidity lies in believing that you can ever *force* a
better outcome, a better common good, or more prosperity, on anyone.
The dismal failure of the public school system in the U.S.,
especially since the formation of the federal Department of
Education, is staring you in your dumb, slack face, and all you want
to do is to try to force your idiocy into all the corners it hasn't
yet reached.
If you know of successful societies
without a high quality standardized public education, let me know.
If people are that stupid, Matt, then you need to go get that big
gun and point it at their heads and teach 'em exactly what you think
is good for 'em.
What is "that stupid"? The OP wanted parents to have the right to
choose a particular aspect of the public education, I am trying to
find out what they meant. Are you against all public education or do
you think that parents should get to choose each and every aspect of
that education?>
Your last sentence, there, it asks an either/or question, yet seems
to present a choice from only one side of the issue. Yes, the
education establishment should be entirely privatized, and yes,
parents should get to shop around to "choose each and every aspect"
of their children's education that appeals to them.
Mike Soja
Of course, once you do that, you've tossed aside all pretense of
living in a "free" country, but, hey, if you can ask a stupid
question like you just asked, you're probably not too worried about
that anyway.
Wow, lots of insults in your response, but very little on topic.
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| User: "Joshua Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: ID and Science |
17 Oct 2005 10:55:53 PM |
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MikeSoja <msoja9@newsguy.com> wrote in
news:fjn8l1ldqvfmdgerp39f3sqmji6r7m9j2n@4ax.com:
Perhaps I was remiss, Matt, in significantly underestimating your
vapid ignorance. Forgive me.
More rightard gas emitted on Usenet.
Your "concept of community" is a small-minded excuse to run
roughshod over the rights of those who fail to form a competing
"concept of community" coalition with sufficient members to defeat
yours in the Democratic process. Of course, you're bound (in all it
senses) to mouth the usual platitudes about that Democratic process
while continuously glossing over the underlying truth: You're
pointing a gun at people's heads and forcing them to comport with
your narrow view of reality.
There is only one set of truths in reading, writing, and arithmetic, not
to mention science. One can argue that there is flexibility in
economics, civics, and history, but these often are taught with multiple
_reasonable_ POVs in any case.
That's your first crime.
No crime. The superstitious, uneducated, and unintelligent don't have an
equal POV.
Your second stupidity lies in believing that you can ever *force | | | | |
