| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"words of truth" |
| Date: |
26 Sep 2005 07:29:29 AM |
| Object: |
Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
http://imagoveritatis.myatts.net/comments.php?id=24_0_1_0_C
Don't Believe It
I ran into a blog that claims to be based on "reason" alone and it
turned out to be, predictably, run by an Objectivist (with a capital
"O" that means a disciple of Ayn Rand). Objectivism is a form of
atheism, though they tend to focus much more on the positive aspects of
their system rather than getting hung up on the God thing, unlike the
folks over at infidels.org. Anyway, that prompted to me to pull off the
shelf one of the many books that I have bought and put away for future
reading, (whenever that is - heh, heh) and before I knew it I was well
into it. The book is John Robbins' Without A Prayer: Ayn Rand and the
Close of Her System, available here.
Well, the book is a masterpiece, and though I don't follow every detail
of Gordon Clark's philosophy which figures heavily in Robbins'
argument, by the end of the chapter on epistemology he has reduced
Rand's system to a pile of rubble that is hopelessly beyond salvaging.
In fact, one cannot but conclude, after reading this analysis, that
Rand's system, rather than being founded upon reason, is profoundly
irrational. It surely requires a blind leap of faith to grasp. I won't
repeat the arguments here; the reader is encouraged to get the book and
see.
So, in that vein, I have been scrounging around the web to see what
else there is in the blogosphere (hey I'm getting into this new lingo!)
when I came across this piece from Tertius, who complains about
atheists who pretend that they do not have a world view, but rather
that they simply lack a belief in God. He calls this atheism lite -
well put I think - because it IS a cop out, as he shows. I have run
across this kind of thing, of course and after analyzing atheism I came
up with at least four positive philosophical assertions that
necessariliy follow from the denial of the existence of God, which are
discussed on page 10 of my conversations with atheists and which I will
quote here:
So when the atheist denies or says he does not believe in a God, he is
necessarily making a number of positive world view presuppositions
about the nature of the universe. What are some of these? At least the
following:
1) The universe is self-sufficient in its existence and operations. It
is autonomous and not dependent upon another external entity, but
functions based on the laws of nature which determine its character.
2) The principles of knowledge or interpretation of the universe are
contained within and derived from the universe itself. There is no need
for a revelation or interpretation of the universe from a vantage point
outside of the universe. Since there is no outside the universe,
according to the atheist, no such revelation could exist in any case.
Therefore, the ultimate reference point for predication and
interpretation is a principle such as logic, sense perception,
intuition, all of which must exist in the universe, and which were
derived ultimately from human reason. The human mind is autonomous and
is adequate to discover truth on its own, using its own methods. All
truth claims must pass the test of human reason. There is no higher
authority.
3) Right and wrong are relative terms that describe social norms
developed by humankind to enhance its survival and pleasure. There is
no absolute right and wrong and in the end, it is the autonomous human
mind that legislates morality.
4) There is no discernible purpose to history or in the operations and
existence of the universe. The universe is the ultimate reality and it
is impersonal and unconcerned about us or our fate. It is simply there
and appears to be what it is largely as a result of chance. The human
future is undetermined, since there is no divine plan governing it. The
meaning of life is what we make of it based on the decisions of our
autonomous wills, and there is no final meaning in the end.
Each of these four notions corresponds to an interpretation of the four
areas that define a world view: ontology (the nature of reality or
being), epistemology (the theory of how we have and justify knowledge),
ethics (the theory of the ultimate good and of moral action), and
teleology (the theory of the purpose of it all). Thus, we see that the
denial of belief in God necessarily implies a basic set of world view
assumptions (axioms or presuppositions) that form a positive
interpretation of the state of affairs.
So the atheist really has no excuse and nowhere to hide. The assertion
that atheism is just a denial is merely a smokescreen to avoid having
to mount a defense of his position. But that emperor is stark naked.
The atheist who wants any intellectual respect is both philosophically
and morally obligated to defend his beliefs as a system, and that means
defending the above assertions. And that puts his whole system up for
discussion. Once we open that door then it is only a matter of time
before the inherent irrationality of atheism reveals itself and the
atheist has to look squarely in the face that fact that his whole
system is built on a leap of faith, and a blind one at that.
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| User: "nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
04 Nov 2005 06:32:28 PM |
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On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 06:28:23 -0800, RainLover
<SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 12:57:07 -0500, nevermore
<stevencanyon@y***hoo.com> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 10:24:53 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 09:51:02 -0500, nevermore
<stevencanyon@y***hoo.com> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 14:26:07 GMT, Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey>
wrote:
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:57:15 -0500, nevermore <stevencanyon@y***hoo.com> wrote:
Its easy enough to disprove god.
<LOL> Actually, it's totally impossible....
Only to a theist.
No matter what it calls it's self.
And yet, you cannot disprove God.
Not our problem, moron. You can't disprove Zeus or even the Great
Arklesiezure.
<LOL> Now you're beginning to understand....
As are you... There is as much reason to believe The Great
Arklesiesure exists as there is to believe in the Christian god.
Why would you choose to believe in ONE and not the other?
I don't.
James, Seattle
--
Steve
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
03 Nov 2005 02:51:29 PM |
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On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 12:57:07 -0500, nevermore
<stevencanyon@y***hoo.com> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 10:24:53 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 09:51:02 -0500, nevermore
<stevencanyon@y***hoo.com> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 14:26:07 GMT, Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey>
wrote:
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:57:15 -0500, nevermore <stevencanyon@y***hoo.com> wrote:
Its easy enough to disprove god.
<LOL> Actually, it's totally impossible....
Only to a theist.
No matter what it calls it's self.
And yet, you cannot disprove God.
Not our problem, moron. You can't disprove Zeus or even the Great
Arklesiezure.
<LOL> Now you're beginning to understand....
No, moron, you are - because a deity-BELIEF called "God" is as is as
irrelevanto us as Zeus and the Great Arklesiezure are to you.
We make no claims about it. Theists do.
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| User: "nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
03 Nov 2005 06:23:28 PM |
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On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:51:29 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 12:57:07 -0500, nevermore
<stevencanyon@y***hoo.com> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 10:24:53 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 09:51:02 -0500, nevermore
<stevencanyon@y***hoo.com> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 14:26:07 GMT, Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey>
wrote:
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:57:15 -0500, nevermore <stevencanyon@y***hoo.com> wrote:
Its easy enough to disprove god.
<LOL> Actually, it's totally impossible....
Only to a theist.
No matter what it calls it's self.
And yet, you cannot disprove God.
Not our problem, moron. You can't disprove Zeus or even the Great
Arklesiezure.
<LOL> Now you're beginning to understand....
No, moron, you are - because a deity-BELIEF called "God" is as is as
irrelevanto us as Zeus and the Great Arklesiezure are to you.
We make no claims about it. Theists do.
<LOL> You just *claimed* that it was irrelevanto.... BTW, that is
a "belief"
--
Steve
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| User: "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrichs effort" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
03 Nov 2005 10:17:57 AM |
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nevermore wrote:
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 14:26:07 GMT, Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey>
wrote:
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:57:15 -0500, nevermore <stevencanyon@y***hoo.com> wrote:
Its easy enough to disprove god.
<LOL> Actually, it's totally impossible....
Only to a theist.
No matter what it calls it's self.
And yet, you cannot disprove God.
Self-contradictory gods are easily disproven.
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| User: "nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
03 Nov 2005 11:57:08 AM |
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On 3 Nov 2005 08:17:57 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 14:26:07 GMT, Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey>
wrote:
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:57:15 -0500, nevermore <stevencanyon@y***hoo.com> wrote:
Its easy enough to disprove god.
<LOL> Actually, it's totally impossible....
Only to a theist.
No matter what it calls it's self.
And yet, you cannot disprove God.
Self-contradictory gods are easily disproven.
<LMAO> I see, so this self contradictory God of yours steps forward
and proves he doesn't exist? Can I watch?
--
Steve
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| User: "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrichs effort" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
03 Nov 2005 12:51:59 PM |
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nevermore wrote:
On 3 Nov 2005 08:17:57 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 14:26:07 GMT, Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey>
wrote:
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:57:15 -0500, nevermore <stevencanyon@y***hoo.com> wrote:
Its easy enough to disprove god.
<LOL> Actually, it's totally impossible....
Only to a theist.
No matter what it calls it's self.
And yet, you cannot disprove God.
Self-contradictory gods are easily disproven.
<LMAO> I see,
Nope.
so this self contradictory God of yours
Atheists don't have gods.
steps forward and proves he doesn't exist?
Nope.
Can I watch?
Only if you take off those blinders.
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| User: "nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
03 Nov 2005 06:23:28 PM |
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On 3 Nov 2005 10:51:59 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
On 3 Nov 2005 08:17:57 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 14:26:07 GMT, Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey>
wrote:
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:57:15 -0500, nevermore <stevencanyon@y***hoo.com> wrote:
Its easy enough to disprove god.
<LOL> Actually, it's totally impossible....
Only to a theist.
No matter what it calls it's self.
And yet, you cannot disprove God.
Self-contradictory gods are easily disproven.
<LMAO> I see,
Nope.
so this self contradictory God of yours
Atheists don't have gods.
Well, it was you that first spoke about this "Self-contradictory god."
Say, isn't saying that he's self-contradictory an expression of your
belief?
steps forward and proves he doesn't exist?
Nope.
Can I watch?
Only if you take off those blinders.
--
Steve
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| User: "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrichs effort" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
04 Nov 2005 09:02:21 AM |
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nevermore wrote:
On 3 Nov 2005 10:51:59 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
so this self contradictory God of yours
Atheists don't have gods.
Well, it was you that first spoke about this "Self-contradictory god."
Yep. The god described by xtians is described in self-contradictory
terms.
Say, isn't saying that he's self-contradictory an expression of your belief?
Nope. It's a statement of fact. The god described by xtians is
described in self-contradictory terms.
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| User: "nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
04 Nov 2005 06:32:29 PM |
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On 4 Nov 2005 07:02:21 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
On 3 Nov 2005 10:51:59 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
so this self contradictory God of yours
Atheists don't have gods.
Well, it was you that first spoke about this "Self-contradictory god."
Yep. The god described by xtians is described in self-contradictory
terms.
Say, isn't saying that he's self-contradictory an expression of your belief?
Nope. It's a statement of fact. The god described by xtians is
described in self-contradictory terms.
Sooo, again, your claim only involves somebody else's description of
God?
--
Steve
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| User: "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrichs effort" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
05 Nov 2005 08:47:57 AM |
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nevermore wrote:
On 4 Nov 2005 07:02:21 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
On 3 Nov 2005 10:51:59 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
so this self contradictory God of yours
Atheists don't have gods.
Well, it was you that first spoke about this "Self-contradictory god."
Yep. The god described by xtians is described in self-contradictory
terms.
Say, isn't saying that he's self-contradictory an expression of your belief?
Nope. It's a statement of fact. The god described by xtians is
described in self-contradictory terms.
Sooo, again, your claim only involves somebody else's description of God?
What do you mean, "again"? What "claim" am I making? I'm not
asserting a self-contradictory god. What other criteria do I have to
examine? If someone asserts their god is a square circle, I respond,
"that's self-contradictory; it can't exist." Unless you can
demonstrate the possibility of self-contradictory things, it isn't a
claim, it's an axiom.
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| User: "nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
05 Nov 2005 11:16:12 AM |
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On 5 Nov 2005 06:47:57 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
On 4 Nov 2005 07:02:21 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
On 3 Nov 2005 10:51:59 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
so this self contradictory God of yours
Atheists don't have gods.
Well, it was you that first spoke about this "Self-contradictory god."
Yep. The god described by xtians is described in self-contradictory
terms.
Say, isn't saying that he's self-contradictory an expression of your belief?
Nope. It's a statement of fact. The god described by xtians is
described in self-contradictory terms.
Sooo, again, your claim only involves somebody else's description of God?
What do you mean, "again"? What "claim" am I making?
Errrr, right above you claim that "The god described by xtians is
described in self-contradictory terms."
I'm not
asserting a self-contradictory god. What other criteria do I have to
examine?
Errrr, you just did....
What other criteria do I have to
examine?
<shrug>
If someone asserts their god is a square circle, I respond,
"that's self-contradictory; it can't exist."
I see... so again I say, your claims do not go beyond somebody
else's description of God? IOW, moron, you cannot prove that
circles don't exist by showing that somebody described them as being
square....
Unless you can
demonstrate the possibility of self-contradictory things, it isn't a
claim, it's an axiom.
--
Steve
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
02 Nov 2005 07:53:35 AM |
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On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 07:45:14 -0600, wbarwell <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>
wrote:
<LOL> You say it is self-contradictory? How can something that
doesn't exist be self-anything?
Basic logic. Something theists ignore when it comes to their beliefs.
That's a fair point. Let me rephrase: the xtian god is described as
being self-contradictory.
So what does what somebody's description of God have to do with
anything?
Once again, I'll point out that one person's inability to prove the
existence of God does not serve as proof that there is no God, nor
demonstrate the invalidity of the belief in God. Your beliefs are
as dogmatic as those of any theists.
Its easy enough to disprove god.
So my beliefs are not dogmatic
They are justified by hard evidence.
You'll never get through to him. He has no grasp of logic. He
*K*N*O*W*S* it exists. So there's something wrong with your logic, but
he doesn't know what - and in his mind that's all he needs so he
doesn't really care.
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| User: "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrichs effort" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
02 Nov 2005 08:49:21 AM |
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nevermore wrote:
On 1 Nov 2005 19:24:24 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
On 1 Nov 2005 07:30:37 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
Lying doesn't help your "argument." Logically self-contradictory
things don't exist; unicorns can't be both pink and invisible, for
example. The xtian god is self-contradictory. Draw your own
conclusion.
<LOL> You say it is self-contradictory? How can something that
doesn't exist be self-anything?
That's a fair point. Let me rephrase: the xtian god is described as
being self-contradictory.
So what does what somebody's description of God have to do with
anything?
The argument is whether any god exists. Most theists describe their
god in self-contradictory terms. Self-contradictory things can't
exist. Therefore, gods described as self-contradictory can't exist.
That's what "somebody's description of god" has to do with.
Once again, I'll point out that one person's inability to prove the
existence of God does not serve as proof that there is no God, nor
demonstrate the invalidity of the belief in God.
And once again I'll point out that the atheist is under no obligation
to disprove the existence of any deities, because the atheist is not
claiming any deities exist. I'll also point out that anyone asserting
something they can't support with objective, verifiable evidence
shouldn't be surprised when someone calls them on it. Then I'll point
out that believing in something for which there is no objective,
verfiable evidence, and which not only contradicts itself, but also
contradicts everything known about the universe, is not rational. And
finally, I'll point out that any god any theist has ever described as
being self-contradictory can't exist, and that therefore belief in that
god is "invalid."
Your beliefs are as dogmatic as those of any theists.
Still wrong. Again, try addressing what I'm saying, rather than what
you wish I was saying.
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| User: "nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
03 Nov 2005 08:51:02 AM |
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On 2 Nov 2005 06:49:21 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
On 1 Nov 2005 19:24:24 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
On 1 Nov 2005 07:30:37 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
Lying doesn't help your "argument." Logically self-contradictory
things don't exist; unicorns can't be both pink and invisible, for
example. The xtian god is self-contradictory. Draw your own
conclusion.
<LOL> You say it is self-contradictory? How can something that
doesn't exist be self-anything?
That's a fair point. Let me rephrase: the xtian god is described as
being self-contradictory.
So what does what somebody's description of God have to do with
anything?
The argument is whether any god exists. Most theists describe their
god in self-contradictory terms. Self-contradictory things can't
exist. Therefore, gods described as self-contradictory can't exist.
That's what "somebody's description of god" has to do with.
Once again, I'll point out that one person's inability to prove the
existence of God does not serve as proof that there is no God, nor
demonstrate the invalidity of the belief in God.
And once again I'll point out that the atheist is under no obligation
to disprove the existence of any deities, because the atheist is not
claiming any deities exist. I'll also point out that anyone asserting
something they can't support with objective, verifiable evidence
shouldn't be surprised when someone calls them on it. Then I'll point
out that believing in something for which there is no objective,
verfiable evidence, and which not only contradicts itself, but also
contradicts everything known about the universe, is not rational. And
finally, I'll point out that any god any theist has ever described as
being self-contradictory can't exist, and that therefore belief in that
god is "invalid."
<LOL> And that is *your* belief. Thanks for proving my point.
Your beliefs are as dogmatic as those of any theists.
Still wrong. Again, try addressing what I'm saying, rather than what
you wish I was saying.
--
Steve
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| User: "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrichs effort" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
03 Nov 2005 10:07:44 AM |
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nevermore wrote:
On 2 Nov 2005 06:49:21 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
Once again, I'll point out that one person's inability to prove the
existence of God does not serve as proof that there is no God, nor
demonstrate the invalidity of the belief in God.
And once again I'll point out that the atheist is under no obligation
to disprove the existence of any deities, because the atheist is not
claiming any deities exist. I'll also point out that anyone asserting
something they can't support with objective, verifiable evidence
shouldn't be surprised when someone calls them on it. Then I'll point
out that believing in something for which there is no objective,
verfiable evidence, and which not only contradicts itself, but also
contradicts everything known about the universe, is not rational. And
finally, I'll point out that any god any theist has ever described as
being self-contradictory can't exist, and that therefore belief in that
god is "invalid."
<LOL> And that is *your* belief. Thanks for proving my point.
That impossible things can't exist isn't belief; it's knowledge.
There's a difference.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
03 Nov 2005 10:55:53 AM |
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On 3 Nov 2005 08:07:44 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
On 2 Nov 2005 06:49:21 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
Once again, I'll point out that one person's inability to prove the
existence of God does not serve as proof that there is no God, nor
demonstrate the invalidity of the belief in God.
And once again I'll point out that the atheist is under no obligation
to disprove the existence of any deities, because the atheist is not
claiming any deities exist. I'll also point out that anyone asserting
something they can't support with objective, verifiable evidence
shouldn't be surprised when someone calls them on it. Then I'll point
out that believing in something for which there is no objective,
verfiable evidence, and which not only contradicts itself, but also
contradicts everything known about the universe, is not rational. And
finally, I'll point out that any god any theist has ever described as
being self-contradictory can't exist, and that therefore belief in that
god is "invalid."
<LOL> And that is *your* belief. Thanks for proving my point.
That impossible things can't exist isn't belief; it's knowledge.
There's a difference.
The moron reduces everything to belief so he can pretend they're
equivalent.
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| User: "nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
03 Nov 2005 11:57:14 AM |
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On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 11:55:53 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On 3 Nov 2005 08:07:44 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
On 2 Nov 2005 06:49:21 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
Once again, I'll point out that one person's inability to prove the
existence of God does not serve as proof that there is no God, nor
demonstrate the invalidity of the belief in God.
And once again I'll point out that the atheist is under no obligation
to disprove the existence of any deities, because the atheist is not
claiming any deities exist. I'll also point out that anyone asserting
something they can't support with objective, verifiable evidence
shouldn't be surprised when someone calls them on it. Then I'll point
out that believing in something for which there is no objective,
verfiable evidence, and which not only contradicts itself, but also
contradicts everything known about the universe, is not rational. And
finally, I'll point out that any god any theist has ever described as
being self-contradictory can't exist, and that therefore belief in that
god is "invalid."
<LOL> And that is *your* belief. Thanks for proving my point.
That impossible things can't exist isn't belief; it's knowledge.
There's a difference.
The moron reduces everything to belief so he can pretend they're
equivalent.
<LOL> Irony anyone? You claim you have no beliefs about God, yet
you argue that others' beliefs are invalid, which is an expression of
your beliefs.
--
Steve
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| User: "Kurt Nicklas" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
03 Nov 2005 05:31:12 PM |
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"nevermore" <stevencanyon@y***hoo.com> wrote in message
news:gojkm1prpanauogbv84ik02lj59ardauic@4ax.com...
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 11:55:53 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On 3 Nov 2005 08:07:44 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
On 2 Nov 2005 06:49:21 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
Once again, I'll point out that one person's inability to prove the
existence of God does not serve as proof that there is no God, nor
demonstrate the invalidity of the belief in God.
And once again I'll point out that the atheist is under no obligation
to disprove the existence of any deities, because the atheist is not
claiming any deities exist. I'll also point out that anyone asserting
something they can't support with objective, verifiable evidence
shouldn't be surprised when someone calls them on it. Then I'll point
out that believing in something for which there is no objective,
verfiable evidence, and which not only contradicts itself, but also
contradicts everything known about the universe, is not rational. And
finally, I'll point out that any god any theist has ever described as
being self-contradictory can't exist, and that therefore belief in
that
god is "invalid."
<LOL> And that is *your* belief. Thanks for proving my point.
That impossible things can't exist isn't belief; it's knowledge.
There's a difference.
The moron reduces everything to belief so he can pretend they're
equivalent.
<LOL> Irony anyone? You claim you have no beliefs about God, yet
you argue that others' beliefs are invalid, which is an expression of
your beliefs.
Don't forget, this "we lack belief in God" is simply a conceit held by weak,
people here who are afraid of defending the indefensible. The idea that
these
clowns, who rail month after month about how there is no evidence for God
and how terrible the people are you believe in God, can then turn around
and pretend they are simply "lacking" belief is simply laughable.
I'm not sure who I disrespect more...the "lack of belief" people here or the
crackpots like Billy Barwell who claim they can "prove there is no God" but
run away from offering any proof outside of their own semi-literate
assertions
to that effect.
On top of that, you'll find the poor souls wraped in the pretension
of scientific objectivism but who are obviously incapable of objectively
evaluating
any of the evidence for the existance of God which they always seem to be
desperately
seeking.
.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
04 Nov 2005 09:37:28 AM |
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Kurt Nicklas wrote:
"nevermore" <stevencanyon@y***hoo.com> wrote in message
news:gojkm1prpanauogbv84ik02lj59ardauic@4ax.com...
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 11:55:53 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On 3 Nov 2005 08:07:44 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
On 2 Nov 2005 06:49:21 -0800, "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason
Gastrich's effort" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
nevermore wrote:
Once again, I'll point out that one person's inability to
prove the existence of God does not serve as proof that there
is no God, nor demonstrate the invalidity of the belief in
God.
And once again I'll point out that the atheist is under no
obligation to disprove the existence of any deities, because
the atheist is not
claiming any deities exist. I'll also point out that anyone
asserting something they can't support with objective,
verifiable evidence
shouldn't be surprised when someone calls them on it. Then
I'll point out that believing in something for which there is
no objective, verfiable evidence, and which not only
contradicts itself, but also
contradicts everything known about the universe, is not
rational. And finally, I'll point out that any god any theist
has ever described as being self-contradictory can't exist, and
that therefore belief in that
god is "invalid."
<LOL> And that is *your* belief. Thanks for proving my
point.
That impossible things can't exist isn't belief; it's knowledge.
There's a difference.
The moron reduces everything to belief so he can pretend they're
equivalent.
<LOL> Irony anyone? You claim you have no beliefs about God,
yet you argue that others' beliefs are invalid, which is an
expression of your beliefs.
Don't forget, this "we lack belief in God" is simply a conceit held
by weak, people here who are afraid of defending the indefensible.
The idea that these
clowns, who rail month after month about how there is no evidence
for God and how terrible the people are you believe in God, can then
turn around and pretend they are simply "lacking" belief is simply
laughable.
Don't forget, your god is dead. The entire class of omni-everything
gods is dead.
What do you believe in now?
Do you smear yourself with chicken blood and prance around the voodoo
priestess's mud hut to honor the voodoo animist gods?
IS THERE A GOD?
Strong Atheism's answer.
A BASIC DEFINITION OF GOD.
The general overarching definition of god as per
the major religions of the world is:
A. God is personal, God has will and consciousness.
B. God has free will.
C. God is the creator of all.
D. God is omnipotent.
E. God is omnibenevolent.
F. God is omniscient.
G. God is that which nothing more powerful
can be imagined.
These are the basic attributes that can be claimed
for the god of orthodox Judaism, Christianity,
Islam, and Hinduism.
Omnibenevolence and omniscience are actually
logically derivable from the claimed attribute of
omnipotence and so aren't not truly independent
attributes, and may be considered special aspects
of omnipotence.
There are other attributes of god, that he is the
only such god, that he is is immortal and that
god has always existed that are not important
for this discussion and for now, can be ignored.
They are secondary arguments and are for the most
part not foundational or truly necessary, except
those that can be logically derived from the
attributes listed above.
A CLASS OF GODS
It is important to note here that this is a
definition not for a particular god, but an
entire class of gods.
Sub-theories about god are not important here.
Christianity claims one may attain salvation
only through Jesus, Islam claims the Christian
dogma that Jesus was the son of god is
blasphemous.
Ideas like this though, are of little importance
to the overarching and general claims made for a
personal, creator, omni-everything god. I have
coined a term, The Grand God of Grand Theologies
for this sort of god, this sort of theological
system of expansive claims for god.
Grand theologies are those theologies that have
adopted this class of god as their basic
attributes concerning the nature of god. But it
is important to remember here that what is being
discussed here is a class of gods, not particular
gods or specific gods.
THE FOUR GREAT THEOLOGICAL TRADITIONS
Again, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism hold
to this basic Grand God and are typical Grand
Theologies holding to this basic class of god as
their basic definitions of what god is at god's
most basic level.
A big problem with this class of gods is, it
collapses rather easily into internal self
contradiction.
THE PROBLEM OF EVIL.
The problem of evil was first written down by
Epicurus in about the third century BCE.
Today's formulation is:
A. God is defined as omnipotent;
B. and as omnibenevolent.
C. Evil exists.
D. God therefore, is not omnipotent as claimed.
E. Or God is not omnibenevolent as claimed.
F. Or god is neither omnipotent or
omnibenevolent.
G. Or god is not existant.
THE FREE WILL DEFENSE
The free will defense of the problem of evil goes
back to St. Augustine who popularized it. It is
still popular, and is championed most notably
today by Alvin Plantinga, but also by other
theologians.
God gave man free will. Man freely chooses to do
evil. Ability to do evil is less evil than
lacking free will.
THE FREE WILL DEFENSE DEBUNKED.
God has free will.
God is omnibenevolent, he has a good nature
incapable of doing evil.
A. If god can have free will, and a good nature,
this good nature is not allowed to count
against god's free will.
B. Nor is god's lack of ability to do evil
allowed to count against god's omnipotence.
C. Likewise, man could easily have a god like
free will and a god like good nature.
D. Inabilty then to do evil would no more count
against man's free will than it does for god's
free will.
E. If so, it also counts against god's free will
and god does not have free will as claimed.
F. If god does not have absolute and total free
will, thus free will is not a true necessity
at all.
F. If god is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, and
can give man a god like free will and a
god-like good nature incapable of moral evil,
god must do so or god is not moral, not
omnibenevolent.
G. Evil exists because he allows it to.
So free will does not exist, or it does and we can
have a god like free will and a god like good
nature. Either way, free will cannot explain away
the existence of evil. This free will defense
then, is a failed argument.
OMNISCIENCE VERSUS CREATORHOOD OF GOD
God is defined as creator of all in most
religions.
And god is claimed to be omniscient, all knowing.
A. God created the Universe and all in it.
B. God is omniscient, all knowing, he knows all
in the Universe and he knows the future of the
Universe and its contents.
C. If god creates a Universe, he will know that
in 13 billion years this Universe will have a
man named John Smith in it.
D. If John Smith is good and saved, or evil and
damned, God will know that.
E. As he knows that the Universe in its present
state will have a John Smith, god may then
contemplate the future state of Smith and
decide if he will tolerate an evil Smith.
F. If yes, Smith will be evil only because of a
specific personal and will choice made solely
by god.
G. If Smith is evil, then evil exists solely
because of a choice made by god. In fact all
moral evil done by creations of god will be
evil and do evil only because of personal and
willful creations of god allowing evil acts
to be done, by direct decision of god.
H. If evil exists in a world with an omniscient
creator god, it is solely and only because
god allows evil.
I. If evil exists solely because of personal
choices of god, god then is not as defined,
omnibenevolent.
J. Man and any other sentient being in such a
Universe cannot have any free will, not even
in principle. A Universe with a god that
creates all and knows all precludes free will
for all beings god creates in the strongest
possible manner.
The Grand God of Grand
Theology is thus self destroying, it is
incoherent and contradictory as a theory.
THE SITUATION SO FAR.
1. A minimalistic class of gods is defined, this
Grand God has been defined here with as few
terms as possible.
2. The problem of evil dooms such a claimed god.
3. The attempted defense, free will is fatally
flawed. God's good nature and free will doom
claims free will makes evil necessary for man
to have free will.
4. Omniscience and creatorhood of god further
doom claims of god's omnibenevolence and
man's free will free will cannot exist for
man. All evil is the direct and knowing
creation of god contradicting claims of
omnibenevolence.
5. Since Free will for man is totally impossible,
free will cannot be a good quality, much less
necessary.
Here, the Grand God of Grand Theology has
collapsed. As has Grand
Theology. As pointed out, this destroys the claims
and viability of an entire class of possible gods,
all secondary and tertiary claims for such a god of
this class also fail, as do dogmas or secondary
or tertiary claims.
If a these Grand Gods cannot exist as defined,
specific gods cannot, nor can claims such as this
or that Grand God sent this or that revelation to
man or some prophet or did this or that.
God is thus disprove and is utter irrelevant
to anything real and existant.
***********
OMNIPOTENCE AND OMNISCIENCE
A. Omnipotence is a special sort of attribute, of
all god's alledged attributes the most
important, because from that attribute you
can derive others attributes, including
omniscience. If one says for purposes of
argument god is omnipotent, one is also
implying god is also omniscient.
B. If god is omnipotent, god must also
specifically have omniscience because if
he does not have omniscience, one
cannot claim omnipotence as an attribute.
C. Thus if god is omnipotent, and created all,
free will is impossible because creation
and omniscience rule out free will as was
shown. In this world god supposedly created,
evil exists. So god must not be
omnibenevolent as claimed as all evil is
created by god if man cannot have free will.
D. So omnipotence and omnibenevolence are thus
mutually exclusive in a world that does in
fact have evil in it. Because omniscience
must exist as part of omnipotence and
omniscience and creatorhood cannot coexist
with free will, omnipotence is also not
compatible with creatorhood and
omnibenevolence. One cannot finesse this
all by ignoringomniscience or abandoning
omniscience.
E. One can only dispose of omniscience by also
explicitly abandoning omnipotence. If god is
defined as being omnibenevolent then a god
that is also allegedly also creator of all
must be evil.
CREATORHOOD OF GOD
F. One may be tempted to abandon the idea god
created all. But that creates some very strong
logical problems also.
G. If god is omnipotent, he can create all. Or
modify any other creation he does not himself
create. No other being or process may create
something god could not modify, because of the
power of his omniscience.
H. So if for purposes of argument, we claim the
Universe was not created by god, he could,
being omnipotent, change that creation for
his own purposes, that of creating good due
to his attribute of omnibenevolence.
We are back to the problem of evil again, he
could change creation such that no evil John
Smiths can exist.
If not he then is sole and only cause for
existence of all evil.
If god is omnibenevolent and omnipotent he
still must modify any creations he did not
himself create to destroy evil, if he can
do so. So claiming god did not create all
does not save the concept of an omnipotent,
omnibenevolent god. It cannot avoid the
problem of evil.
I. Omniscience means we cannot dodge the problem
of evil by stating god did not create the
Universe even if one wished to, nor by limiting
his creatorhood, for example saying god did not
create the original material of the Universe,
but used it as a building material.
J. Thus to get rid of the creator problem, we must
explicitly abandon it all and totally. Only by
doing so could one get around the problem of
creatorhood and omniscience. But if we say god
cannot either create the Universe or modify it
as he finds it, we drop omniscience also,
explicitly. God then turns out not to be
creator of all nor omnipotent as a priori
defined, a contradiction disproving that
a priori defined god.
K. If evil exists because god could change the
Universe he did not create, and he fails to do
so, then all evil exists solely because
of knowing and personal choices god makes.
L. God being omnipotent cannot be controlled by
any other process or other entities. He may
modify any works or creations made by them.
M. If god cannot change creations of others, or
the pre-existing materials of the Universe,
omnipotence in not an attribute of god as
claimed a priori.
M. Omnipotence and creatorhood thus are entangled
in a manner that makes it hard to abandon the
doctrine god created all and if one does, one
must likewise abandon claims of omnipotence.
PRE-EXISTING MATTER AND A PRE-EXISTING UNIVERSE.
The Greek writer Hesiod in his Theogony, starts
with a Universe that is a chaotic void. This
void, through the mysterious property of
emanation, created the first generation of gods,
the Titans, who in their turn created the
Olympians gods who eventually displace the
Titans as rulers of the world.
Likewise, some theologians see Genesis as
representing god creating the world out of a
similar void, a primordial sea god did not
himself create, but used as raw material for
his creations.
God's existence is not explained.
This idea god did not create all still would not
absolve an omnipotent god from responsibility
for evil. The biblical god if he did not create
the Universe and its component materials used them
as he pleased. If that god is omnipotent, then he
bears all responsibility for the world he did
create out of pre-existing material. Whether
this god is said to be eternal or like Hesiod's
Titans was somehow emanated from the chaos of
the void does not materially change any arguments
involving omnipotence, omniscience or
omnibenevolence, if god is said to have these
attributes.
************************************************
ATTRIBUTES OF GOD PART THREE
Does god create the rules, the laws, the logic of
the Universe or not? Is 2 + 2 = 4 something god
set as part of the nature of the Universe or is
that outside and beyond god?
Can god change 2 + 2 to 5?
A. If god did in fact make the rules and laws and
logic of the Universe, god could also change
them as needed.
B. A god that creates the rules.laws and logic
of the world he creates could simply make a
world where man has free will yet freely
chooses only to do moral good. Since god
creates the rules of the Universe, he could
change them in name of omnibenevolence, free
will is perserved and evil is banished. Evil
no longer needs to exist to allow for free
will.
C. If god could do this and fails to, evil
exists solely and only because of god's
failure to use his omnipotence to change
the rules and laws and logic of the Universe
to give man free will and a nature incapable
of doing evil.
D. If god can do this and fails to, god is not
omnibenevolent as claimed, a contradiction
in definitions of god as omnibenevolent and
omnipotent.
E. God in fact since he is essentially the
creator and sustaining cause of all evil
that was, is, and shall be is omni-malevolent.
F. If god does not make the rules, the laws, the
very logic of the Universe, then we have the
problem of what these things are and where
they come from.
G. If these laws and rules and logic limit god,
then god is obviously not omnipotent as
claimed.
H. And thus god is not as claimed, the greatest
thing that can be imagined. Obviously laws
and rules and logic that limit the most
powerful in the Universe are greater
still because they do in fact limit such
a being.
I. If such laws and rules and logic outside and
beyond god do exist, and are thus greater
than god, god is not the greatest thing
imaginable and all ontological 'proofs' that
are based on that basic claim fail.
J. Such rules and laws and logic must exist
outside of god's control and must have always
bee outside his control. If there were ever
in god's control, god cannot have reduced his
power to abandon omnipotence voluntarily.
Omnipotence is an inherent ability. It would
be like abandoning a sense of taste or touch.
This observation forstalls attempts at
apologisms claiming god abandoned any
abilities.
K. And if god could indeed abandon omnipotence,
he must avoid that. After all, he is also
omnibenevolent. Omnibenevolence dictates he
must at all times do the good thing, never an
evil thing. Abandoning omnipotence such that
he could no longer create a world where man
has free will, and a nature incapable of evil
is to allow evil to exist. To abandon
omnipotence is to embrace the proposition
evil is to be allowed to flourish. So any
claims god might have for some greater good
abandoned omnipotence freely are not possible.
L. If god is said to be omnipotent, if he at
anytime gave up any abilities he can no
longer said to be omnipotent, if he actually
gave up any abilities.
M. Since god must have had maximum power and
abilities and cannot have at any time
voluntarilyy relinquished any powers or
abilities, at least in the name of banishing
evil the fact that there are laws and rules
and logic of a universe outside and beyond
god, they aretrulyy beyond and outside god,
and always were.
N. Since such laws and rules and laws are outside
god, and always were so,and are properties of
the Universe, the Universe is likewise outside
and beyond god, with its laws and rules and
logic.
O. Since the Universe and its laws and rules and
logic are outside and beyond god, god is not
as, creator of all.
P. Since the Universe no longer relies on god for
its purportedexistencee, nor on god for the
existencee of its laws and rules and logic,
god is no longer a necessary being. If there
are things that have necessaryexistencee, it
would have to be the Universe as whole, or
possibly its laws, its rules or its logic,
or a subset of these rules or laws or the
underlying causes of these things, if any.
None were created by god or can be modified
by god.
Q. If these laws and rules and logic could be
modified by god, then the rules and laws
and logic of the Universe would have been
modified to enexistencece of evil, and must
be modified this if god is actually
omnipotent and omnibenevolent.
R. God then is not omnipotent, or not
omnibenevolent, or is neither, or
does not exist.
THE ATTRIBUTES AND NATURE OF GOD IN LIGHT OF THE
ABOVE EXAMINATION OF GOD
Thus the idea god is omnipotent, omnibenevolent,
and creator of all, clash again
and mutually self-destruct over the issue of
evil'existencece. This raises
serious questions on the nature of the Universe
that cannot be as Grand Theology
claims it is.
A. We have shown god cannot have created the
Universe.
B. We have shown god does not create the laws,
rules and laws of that Universe.
C. That god is thus not omnipotent as these laws
limit him.
D. That god is not the greatest imaginable thing.
E. That ontological proofs of god'existencece
based on claims god is the greatest thing
imaginable are failed arguments.
F. That god cannot be a necessary being, as
claimed.
G. That any possible claims god might for some
reason abandon or limit any abilities cannot
be true in any attempt to avoid this line of
inquiry. Nor can that approach derail logical
examination of consequences of Grand
Theology's overarching claims to god's
attributes or nature.
The fact that god iallegedlyly omnibenevolent and
evil exists, demonstrates god cannot make the
rules of the world. 2 + 2 = 4 because that is
the nature of the Universe, not something god
created.Because if god did create the rules and
laws and logic of the Universe, and was
omnibenevolent, we should have no signs of evil,
especially moral evil of man, Satan, demons and
devils.
But if one admits to that, Many other important
claims collapse, many other arguments about god
and his attributes and nature no longer are
viable. Some of these claims, god's creation
of the Universe are among the oldest and most
basic of theology.
Ontological proofs started with Anselm in the
10th century, all of these now must be abandoned.
The necessary being argument, long a rhetorical
argument is now finally dead.
Free will defenses against the problem of evil
opened up a line of attack here that is powerful
and very final.
**************************************************
I'm not sure who I disrespect more...the "lack of belief" people
here or the crackpots like Billy Barwell who claim they can "prove
there is no God" but run away from offering any proof outside of
their own semi-literate assertions
to that effect.
On top of that, you'll find the poor souls wraped in the pretension
of scientific objectivism but who are obviously incapable of
objectively evaluating
any of the evidence for the existance of God which they always seem
to be desperately
seeking.
--
The official spokesman of the Foxes said
today that investigation into what happened
to the henhouse may be needed.
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism Is Built On A Leap Of Blind Faith |
04 Nov 2005 09:38:03 AM |
|
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Kurt Nicklas wrote:
I'm not sure who I disrespect more...the "lack of belief" people
here or the crackpots like Billy Barwell who claim they can "prove
there is no God" but run away from offering any proof outside of
their own semi-literate assertions
to that effect.
IS THERE A GOD?
Strong Atheism's answer.
A BASIC DEFINITION OF GOD.
The general overarching definition of god as per
the major religions of the world is:
A. God is personal, God has will and consciousness.
B. God has free will.
C. God is the creator of all.
D. God is omnipotent.
E. God is omnibenevolent.
F. God is omniscient.
G. God is that which nothing more powerful
can be imagined.
These are the basic attributes that can be claimed
for the god of orthodox Judaism, Christianity,
Islam, and Hinduism.
Omnibenevolence and omniscience are actually
logically derivable from the claimed attribute of
omnipotence and so aren't not truly independent
attributes, and may be considered special aspects
of omnipotence.
There are other attributes of god, that he is the
only such god, that he is is immortal and that
god has always existed that are not important
for this discussion and for now, can be ignored.
They are secondary arguments and are for the most
part not foundational or truly necessary, except
those that can be logically derived from the
attributes listed above.
A CLASS OF GODS
It is important to note here that this is a
definition not for a particular god, but an
entire class of gods.
Sub-theories about god are not important here.
Christianity claims one may attain salvation
only through Jesus, Islam claims the Christian
dogma that Jesus was the son of god is
blasphemous.
Ideas like this though, are of little importance
to the overarching and general claims made for a
personal, creator, omni-everything god. I have
coined a term, The Grand God of Grand Theologies
for this sort of god, this sort of theological
system of expansive claims for god.
Grand theologies are those theologies that have
adopted this class of god as their basic
attributes concerning the nature of god. But it
is important to remember here that what is being
discussed here is a class of gods, not particular
gods or specific gods.
THE FOUR GREAT THEOLOGICAL TRADITIONS
Again, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism hold
to this basic Grand God and are typical Grand
Theologies holding to this basic class of god as
their basic definitions of what god is at god's
most basic level.
A big problem with this class of gods is, it
collapses rather easily into internal self
contradiction.
THE PROBLEM OF EVIL.
The problem of evil was first written down by
Epicurus in about the third century BCE.
Today's formulation is:
A. God is defined as omnipotent;
B. and as omnibenevolent.
C. Evil exists.
D. God therefore, is not omnipotent as claimed.
E. Or God is not omnibenevolent as claimed.
F. Or god is neither omnipotent or
omnibenevolent.
G. Or god is not existant.
THE FREE WILL DEFENSE
The free will defense of the problem of evil goes
back to St. Augustine who popularized it. It is
still popular, and is championed most notably
today by Alvin Plantinga, but also by other
theologians.
God gave man free will. Man freely chooses to do
evil. Ability to do evil is less evil than
lacking free will.
THE FREE WILL DEFENSE DEBUNKED.
God has free will.
God is omnibenevolent, he has a good nature
incapable of doing evil.
A. If god can have free will, and a good nature,
this good nature is not allowed to count
against god's free will.
B. Nor is god's lack of ability to do evil
allowed to count against god's omnipotence.
C. Likewise, man could easily have a god like
free will and a god like good nature.
D. Inabilty then to do evil would no more count
against man's free will than it does for god's
free will.
E. If so, it also counts against god's free will
and god does not have free will as claimed.
F. If god does not have absolute and total free
will, thus free will is not a true necessity
at all.
F. If god is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, and
can give man a god like free will and a
god-like good nature incapable of moral evil,
god must do so or god is not moral, not
omnibenevolent.
G. Evil exists because he allows it to.
So free will does not exist, or it does and we can
have a god like free will and a god like good
nature. Either way, free will cannot explain away
the existence of evil. This free will defense
then, is a failed argument.
OMNISCIENCE VERSUS CREATORHOOD OF GOD
God is defined as creator of all in most
religions.
And god is claimed to be omniscient, all knowing.
A. God created the Universe and all in it.
B. God is omniscient, all knowing, he knows all
in the Universe and he knows the future of the
Universe and its contents.
C. If god creates a Universe, he will know that
in 13 billion years this Universe will have a
man named John Smith in it.
D. If John Smith is good and saved, or evil and
damned, God will know that.
E. As he knows that the Universe in its present
state will have a John Smith, god may then
contemplate the future state of Smith and
decide if he will tolerate an evil Smith.
F. If yes, Smith will be evil only because of a
specific personal and will choice made solely
by god.
G. If Smith is evil, then evil exists solely
because of a choice made by god. In fact all
moral evil done by creations of god will be
evil and do evil only because of personal and
willful creations of god allowing evil acts
to be done, by direct decision of god.
H. If evil exists in a world with an omniscient
creator god, it is solely and only because
god allows evil.
I. If evil exists solely because of personal
choices of god, god then is not as defined,
omnibenevolent.
J. Man and any other sentient being in such a
Universe cannot have any free will, not even
in principle. A Universe with a god that
creates all and knows all precludes free will
for all beings god creates in the strongest
possible manner.
The Grand God of Grand
Theology is thus self destroying, it is
incoherent and contradictory as a theory.
THE SITUATION SO FAR.
1. A minimalistic class of gods is defined, this
Grand God has been defined here with as few
terms as possible.
2. The problem of evil dooms such a claimed god.
3. The attempted defense, free will is fatally
flawed. God's good nature and free will doom
claims free will makes evil necessary for man
to have free will.
4. Omniscience and creatorhood of god further
doom claims of god's omnibenevolence and
man's free will free will cannot exist for
man. All evil is the direct and knowing
creation of god contradicting claims of
omnibenevolence.
5. Since Free will for man is totally impossible,
free will cannot be a good quality, much less
necessary.
Here, the Grand God of Grand Theology has
collapsed. As has Grand
Theology. As pointed out, this destroys the claims
and viability of an entire class of possible gods,
all secondary and tertiary claims for such a god of
this class also fail, as do dogmas or secondary
or tertiary claims.
If a these Grand Gods cannot exist as defined,
specific gods cannot, nor can claims such as this
or that Grand God sent this or that revelation to
man or some prophet or did this or that.
God is thus disprove and is utter irrelevant
to anything real and existant.
***********
OMNIPOTENCE AND OMNISCIENCE
A. Omnipotence is a special sort of attribute, of
all god's alledged attributes the most
important, because from that attribute you
can derive others attributes, including
omniscience. If one says for purposes of
argument god is omnipotent, one is also
implying god is also omniscient.
B. If god is omnipotent, god must also
specifically have omniscience because if
he does not have omniscience, one
cannot claim omnipotence as an attribute.
C. Thus if god is omnipotent, and created all,
free will is impossible because creation
and omniscience rule out free will as was
shown. In this world god supposedly created,
evil exists. So god must not be
omnibenevolent as claimed as all evil is
created by god if man cannot have free will.
D. So omnipotence and omnibenevolence are thus
mutually exclusive in a world that does in
fact have evil in it. Because omniscience
must exist as part of omnipotence and
omniscience and creatorhood cannot coexist
with free will, omnipotence is also not
compatible with creatorhood and
omnibenevolence. One cannot finesse this
all by ignoringomniscience or abandoning
omniscience.
E. One can only dispose of omniscience by also
explicitly abandoning omnipotence. If god is
defined as being omnibenevolent then a god
that is also allegedly also creator of all
must be evil.
CREATORHOOD OF GOD
F. One may be tempted to abandon the idea god
created all. But that creates some very strong
logical problems also.
G. If god is omnipotent, he can create all. Or
modify any other creation he does not himself
create. No other being or process may create
something god could not modify, because of the
power of his omniscience.
H. So if for purposes of argument, we claim the
Universe was not created by god, he could,
being omnipotent, change that creation for
his own purposes, that of creating good due
to his attribute of omnibenevolence.
We are back to the problem of evil again, he
could change creation such that no evil John
Smiths can exist.
If not he then is sole and only cause for
existence of all evil.
If god is omnibenevolent and omnipotent he
still must modify any creations he did not
himself create to destroy evil, if he can
do so. So claiming god did not create all
does not save the concept of an omnipotent,
omnibenevolent god. It cannot avoid the
problem of evil.
I. Omniscience means we cannot dodge the problem
of evil by stating god did not create the
Universe even if one wished to, nor by limiting
his creatorhood, for example saying god did not
create the original material of the Universe,
but used it as a building material.
J. Thus to get rid of the creator problem, we must
explicitly abandon it all and totally. Only by
doing so could one get around the problem of
creatorhood and omniscience. But if we say god
cannot either create the Universe or modify it
as he finds it, we drop omniscience also,
explicitly. God then turns out not to be
creator of all nor omnipotent as a priori
defined, a contradiction disproving that
a priori defined god.
K. If evil exists because god could change the
Universe he did not create, and he fails to do
so, then all evil exists solely because
of knowing and personal choices god makes.
L. God being omnipotent cannot be controlled by
any other process or other entities. He may
modify any works or creations made by them.
M. If god cannot change creations of others, or
the pre-existing materials of the Universe,
omnipotence in not an attribute of god as
claimed a priori.
M. Omnipotence and creatorhood thus are entangled
in a manner that makes it hard to abandon the
doctrine god created all and if one does, one
must likewise abandon claims of omnipotence.
PRE-EXISTING MATTER AND A PRE-EXISTING UNIVERSE.
The Greek writer Hesiod in his Theogony, starts
with a Universe that is a chaotic void. This
void, through the mysterious property of
emanation, created the first generation of gods,
the Titans, who in their turn created the
Olympians gods who eventually displace the
Titans as rulers of the world.
Likewise, some theologians see Genesis as
representing god creating the world out of a
similar void, a primordial sea god did not
himself create, but used as raw material for
his creations.
God's existence is not explained.
This idea god did not create all still would not
absolve an omnipotent god from responsibility
for evil. The biblical god if he did not create
the Universe and its component materials used them
as he pleased. If that god is omnipotent, then he
bears all responsibility for the world he did
create out of pre-existing material. Whether
this god is said to be eternal or like Hesiod's
Titans was somehow emanated from the chaos of
the void does not materially change any arguments
involving omnipotence, omniscience or
omnibenevolence, if god is said to have these
attributes.
************************************************
ATTRIBUTES OF GOD PART THREE
Does god create the rules, the laws, the logic of
the Universe or not? Is 2 + 2 = 4 something god
set as part of the nature of the Universe or is
that outside and beyond god?
Can god change 2 + 2 to 5?
A. If god did in fact make the rules and laws and
logic of the Universe, god could also change
them as needed.
B. A god that creates the rules.laws and logic
of the world he creates could simply make a
world where man has free will yet freely
chooses only to do moral good. Since god
creates the rules of the Universe, he could
change them in name of omnibenevolence, free
will is perserved and evil is banished. Evil
no longer needs to exist to allow for free
will.
C. If god could do this and fails to, evil
exists solely and only because of god's
failure to use his omnipotence to change
the rules and laws and logic of the Universe
to give man free will and a nature incapable
of doing evil.
D. If god can do this and fails to, god is not
omnibenevolent as claimed, a contradiction
in definitions of god as omnibenevolent and
omnipotent.
E. God in fact since he is essentially the
creator and sustaining cause of all evil
that was, is, and shall be is omni-malevolent.
F. If god does not make the rules, the laws, the
very logic of the Universe, then we have the
problem of what these things are and where
they come from.
G. If these laws and rules and logic limit god,
then god is obviously not omnipotent as
claimed.
H. And thus god is not as claimed, the greatest
thing that can be imagined. Obviously laws
and rules and logic that limit the most
powerful in the Universe are greater
still because they do in fact limit such
a being.
I. If such laws and rules and logic outside and
beyond god do exist, and are thus greater
than god, god is not the greatest thing
imaginable and all ontological 'proofs' that
are based on that basic claim fail.
J. Such rules and laws and logic must exist
outside of god's control and must have always
bee outside his control. If there were ever
in god's control, god cannot have reduced his
power to abandon omnipotence voluntarily.
Omnipotence is an inherent ability. It would
be like abandoning a sense of taste or touch.
This observation forstalls attempts at
apologisms claiming god abandoned any
abilities.
K. And if god could indeed abandon omnipotence,
he must avoid that. After all, he is also
omnibenevolent. Omnibenevolence dictates he
must at all times do the good thing, never an
evil thing. Abandoning omnipotence such that
he could no longer create a world where man
has free will, and a nature incapable of evil
is to allow evil to exist. To abandon
omnipotence is to embrace the proposition
evil is to be allowed to flourish. So any
claims god might have for some greater good
abandoned omnipotence freely are not possible.
L. If god is said to be omnipotent, if he at
anytime gave up any abilities he can no
longer said to be omnipotent, if he actually
gave up any abilities.
M. Since god must have had maximum power and
abilities and cannot have at any time
voluntarilyy relinquished any powers or
abilities, at least in the name of banishing
evil the fact that there are laws and rules
and logic of a universe outside and beyond
god, they aretrulyy beyond and outside god,
and always were.
N. Since such laws and rules and laws are outside
god, and always were so,and are properties of
the Universe, the Universe is likewise outside
and beyond god, with its laws and rules and
logic.
O. Since the Universe and its laws and rules and
logic are outside and beyond god, god is not
as, creator of all.
P. Since the Universe no longer relies on god for
its purportedexistencee, nor on god for the
existencee of its laws and rules and logic,
god is no longer a necessary being. If there
are things that have necessaryexistencee, it
would have to be the Universe as whole, or
possibly its laws, its rules or its logic,
or a subset of these rules or laws or the
underlying causes of these things, if any.
None were created by god or can be modified
by god.
Q. If these laws and rules and logic could be
modified by god, then the rules and laws
and logic of the Universe would have been
modified to enexistencece of evil, and must
be modified this if god is actually
omnipotent and omnibenevolent.
R. God then is not omnipotent, or not
omnibenevolent, or is neither, or
does not exist.
THE ATTRIBUTES AND NATURE OF GOD IN LIGHT OF THE
ABOVE EXAMINATION OF GOD
Thus the idea god is omnipotent, omnibenevolent,
and creator of all, clash again
and mutually self-destruct over the issue of
evil'existencece. This raises
serious questions on the nature of the Universe
that cannot be as Grand Theolog | | | | | | | |
