| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"J Young" |
| Date: |
23 Mar 2005 11:44:09 PM |
| Object: |
Atheism is its own belief system |
http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005a/032505/032505q.php
Atheism is its own belief system
New British education framework pulls atheists off pedestal of
neutrality
The curious relationship between church and state in Great Britain took
a little-noted shift this fall with the release of a new "national
framework" for religious education in British schools. Largely
drowned out in the babel leading up to the U.S. elections, the British
government for the first time recognized atheism in the new framework
as a belief system that should be taught alongside "traditional"
faiths to British schoolchildren.
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| User: "Elf M. Sternberg" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism is its own belief system |
24 Mar 2005 10:11:48 AM |
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"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> writes:
http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005a/032505/032505q.php
Atheism is its own belief system
Of course it is. *Pats Mr. Young on the head.* Now go run
along and play in traffic.
Elf
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism is its own belief system |
24 Mar 2005 10:20:13 AM |
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J Young wrote:
http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005a/032505/032505q.php
Atheism is its own belief system
New British education framework pulls atheists off pedestal of
neutrality
The curious relationship between church and state in Great Britain
took
a little-noted shift this fall with the release of a new "national
framework" for religious education in British schools. Largely
drowned out in the babel leading up to the U.S. elections, the
British
government for the first time recognized atheism in the new framework
as a belief system that should be taught alongside "traditional"
faiths to British schoolchildren.
And here I thought it was belief in the great and powerful
nought-God called Athe (rhymes with Kathy).
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism is its own belief system |
24 Mar 2005 06:48:43 AM |
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J Young wrote:
http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005a/032505/032505q.php
Atheism is its own belief system
New British education framework pulls atheists off pedestal of
neutrality
The curious relationship between church and state in Great Britain
took
a little-noted shift this fall with the release of a new "national
framework" for religious education in British schools. Largely
drowned out in the babel leading up to the U.S. elections, the
British
government for the first time recognized atheism in the new framework
as a belief system that should be taught alongside "traditional"
faiths to British schoolchildren.
This is incorrect, and represents a fundamental misunderstanding of
both the role religious education plays in the UK education system, and
the framework document produced by the Qualifications and Curriculum
Authority (QCA).
In respect of the document (A national framework for religious
education -http://www.qca.org.uk/9817.html), several points may be
made:
* It is a non-statutory document: it need not be adopted either in
whole or in part by any school.
* More importantly, it does not actually mention atheism AT ALL. It
makes one mention of humanism:
"To ensure that all pupils' voices are heard and the religious
education
curriculum is broad and balanced, it is recommended that there are
opportunities for all pupils to study:
(...)
o secular philosophies such as humanism."
It also twice mentions using a "secular worldview", comparatively and
"where appropriate". It should be noted that "secular" is not equal to
"atheist".
* Secular philosophies have been a part of religious education in UK
schools for at least 20 years (I have personal experience of this) -
this is absolutely NOT a new development.
There is no indication at all in the document that it has "recognized
atheism in the new framework as a belief system" - that is a partisan
interpretation on the part of the writer of the article referenced by
the original poster on this thread. Rather, the aim of the framework
would appear to be an attempt to contextualise religion, by indicating
that some people believe in no god at all, NOT a statement of
equivalence between a coherent set of shared tenets based on
supernatural fiat, and utter lack thereof. Or, put another way: "Some
people have red hair on their heads, some black hair, some blonde hair.
Of course, some are bald, and have no hair on their head at all".
Does this statement imply that bald people have a colour of hair?
As regards religious education (RE) in UK schools: in non-faith-based
schools, RE is, and has been for some considerable time, taught as
disinterestedly as possible.
One of the chief problems with the writer's understanding of the issues
here is the same problem we find with many of the theistic posters on
alt.atheism, namely that it seems he cannot comprehend that atheists
are not a coherent grouping of people all believing the same thing (as
adherents to religion, by necessity, are).
He says "In recent decades, atheism has tried to hold itself above this
fray". No, it hasn't. "Atheism" collectively, does nothing, because
the very notion of atheists as a consensual collective is a nonsense.
"So is atheism properly considered a "belief system"? The British
have said yes." Um...no, we haven't. And nor, indeed, has the British
government.
Steve
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism is its own belief system |
24 Mar 2005 01:27:05 PM |
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On 24 Mar 2005 04:48:43 -0800, wrote:
J Young wrote:
http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005a/032505/032505q.php
Atheism is its own belief system
New British education framework pulls atheists off pedestal of
neutrality
The curious relationship between church and state in Great Britain
took
a little-noted shift this fall with the release of a new "national
framework" for religious education in British schools. Largely
drowned out in the babel leading up to the U.S. elections, the
British
government for the first time recognized atheism in the new framework
as a belief system that should be taught alongside "traditional"
faiths to British schoolchildren.
This is incorrect, and represents a fundamental misunderstanding of
both the role religious education plays in the UK education system, and
the framework document produced by the Qualifications and Curriculum
Authority (QCA).
In respect of the document (A national framework for religious
education -http://www.qca.org.uk/9817.html), several points may be
made:
* It is a non-statutory document: it need not be adopted either in
whole or in part by any school.
* More importantly, it does not actually mention atheism AT ALL. It
makes one mention of humanism:
"To ensure that all pupils' voices are heard and the religious
education
curriculum is broad and balanced, it is recommended that there are
opportunities for all pupils to study:
(...)
o secular philosophies such as humanism."
<snip>
As regards religious education (RE) in UK schools: in non-faith-based
schools, RE is, and has been for some considerable time, taught as
disinterestedly as possible.
Yes and they are trying to get the few faith based schoold to broaden
their education here in the interests of integration and tolerance. I
can remember once being taken to a Jewish synagogue and their
ceremonials were explained which was interesting.
It was during a Religious education class back in the fifties that
I first learned about atheism and the teacher (because I and one or
two others expressed interest) recommended some books that I
borrowed from the library.
RI is and always was voluntary as decided by the parents.
We are basically just told the history of Judaism and Christianity
(Bible version of course) there was no prayers, hymns, Bible reading
and that kind of stuff. You went voluntarily to Sunday school for
that.
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism is its own belief system |
24 Mar 2005 10:38:08 AM |
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J Young wrote:
http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005a/032505/032505q.php
Atheism is its own belief system
New British education framework pulls atheists off pedestal of
neutrality
The curious relationship between church and state in Great Britain took
a little-noted shift this fall with the release of a new "national
framework" for religious education in British schools. Largely
drowned out in the babel leading up to the U.S. elections, the British
government for the first time recognized atheism in the new framework
as a belief system that should be taught alongside "traditional"
faiths to British schoolchildren.
Gee, just goes to show you that even smart people, can be stupid.
How is something everyone is born as, a belief system? How can it be a
belief system, when you have to be taught, not to have it?
Keep trying Young, one of these days, you might finally be able to
comprehend the simple fact, that atheism is a LACK of belief.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor
A.A #1143 PLONKED by Bob
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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| User: "J Young" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism is its own belief system |
24 Mar 2005 11:31:10 AM |
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Rev. Karl E. Taylor wrote:
J Young wrote:
http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005a/032505/032505q.php
Atheism is its own belief system
New British education framework pulls atheists off pedestal of
neutrality
The curious relationship between church and state in Great Britain
took
a little-noted shift this fall with the release of a new "national
framework" for religious education in British schools. Largely
drowned out in the babel leading up to the U.S. elections, the
British
government for the first time recognized atheism in the new
framework
as a belief system that should be taught alongside "traditional"
faiths to British schoolchildren.
Gee, just goes to show you that even smart people, can be stupid.
How is something everyone is born as, a belief system? How can it be
a
belief system, when you have to be taught, not to have it?
Keep trying Young, one of these days, you might finally be able to
comprehend the simple fact, that atheism is a LACK of belief.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor
A.A #1143 PLONKED by Bob
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
I'll leave you to do your own research asswipe, but the federal courts
have agreed with me time and again.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism is its own belief system |
24 Mar 2005 03:06:23 PM |
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I'm not sure that the federal courts of th US have anything to do with
the British education system. At least, I hope not...unless you can
explain otherwise?
Steve
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| User: "Jack Mormon" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism is its own belief system |
24 Mar 2005 12:42:48 PM |
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J Young siad, "...the federal courts have agreed with me time and
again".
Would you mind providing references to the cases/courts to which you
are referring. I'm curious. Thanks, ~Jack
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism is its own belief system |
24 Mar 2005 11:54:21 AM |
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J Young wrote:
Rev. Karl E. Taylor wrote:
J Young wrote:
http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005a/032505/032505q.php
Atheism is its own belief system
New British education framework pulls atheists off pedestal of
neutrality
The curious relationship between church and state in Great Britain
took
a little-noted shift this fall with the release of a new "national
framework" for religious education in British schools. Largely
drowned out in the babel leading up to the U.S. elections, the
British
government for the first time recognized atheism in the new
framework
as a belief system that should be taught alongside "traditional"
faiths to British schoolchildren.
Gee, just goes to show you that even smart people, can be stupid.
How is something everyone is born as, a belief system? How can it be
a
belief system, when you have to be taught, not to have it?
Keep trying Young, one of these days, you might finally be able to
comprehend the simple fact, that atheism is a LACK of belief.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor
A.A #1143 PLONKED by Bob
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
I'll leave you to do your own research asswipe, but the federal courts
have agreed with me time and again.
Wrong again.
Secular Humanism was what was declared to be a religion, not atheism.
Like I said, oh most wasted space, someday, you will understand a simple
concept. Atheism is the total LACK of belief.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor
A.A #1143 PLONKED by Bob
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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| User: "Elf M. Sternberg" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism is its own belief system |
24 Mar 2005 01:24:22 PM |
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"Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktayloraz@qwest.net> writes:
Secular Humanism was what was declared to be a religion, not atheism.
Not even then.
Justice Hugo Black wore in a side note that accompanied Torcaso
v. Watkins, "Among religions in this country which do not teach what
would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God is
Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism, and others."
This is Justice Hugo Black's *opinion* (the technical term is
"orbiter dictum," which is legalspeak for Justice Black adding, "By the
way, in my opinion"), not the majority decision of the court. Secular
Humanism has not been declared "a religion" for the purposes of either
Establishment Clause protection or tax shelter purposes.
Even "American Daily," one of the rightwingnut newsletters of
record, has the courage to admit "many conservative Christians falsely
claim that this orbiter dictum was some formal declaration by the
Court. An orbiter dictum is neither a legal substantiation nor a formal
declaration." (http://www.americandaily.com/article/2740)
Elf
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism is its own belief system |
24 Mar 2005 01:36:34 PM |
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Elf M. Sternberg wrote:
"Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktayloraz@qwest.net> writes:
Secular Humanism was what was declared to be a religion, not atheism.
Not even then.
Justice Hugo Black wore in a side note that accompanied Torcaso
v. Watkins, "Among religions in this country which do not teach what
would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God is
Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism, and others."
This is Justice Hugo Black's *opinion* (the technical term is
"orbiter dictum," which is legalspeak for Justice Black adding, "By the
way, in my opinion"), not the majority decision of the court. Secular
Humanism has not been declared "a religion" for the purposes of either
Establishment Clause protection or tax shelter purposes.
Even "American Daily," one of the rightwingnut newsletters of
record, has the courage to admit "many conservative Christians falsely
claim that this orbiter dictum was some formal declaration by the
Court. An orbiter dictum is neither a legal substantiation nor a formal
declaration." (http://www.americandaily.com/article/2740)
Elf
Oh, I agree totally.
J Young on the other hand, has taken that case, and listen to the fat
man up front on Sunday, tell him that it also applies to we atheists.
And of course, nothing could be further from the truth.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor
A.A #1143 PLONKED by Bob
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism is its own belief system |
25 Mar 2005 01:14:23 PM |
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On 24 Mar 2005 09:31:10 -0800, "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com>
wrote:
Rev. Karl E. Taylor wrote:
J Young wrote:
http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005a/032505/032505q.php
Atheism is its own belief system
New British education framework pulls atheists off pedestal of
neutrality
The curious relationship between church and state in Great Britain
took
a little-noted shift this fall with the release of a new "national
framework" for religious education in British schools. Largely
drowned out in the babel leading up to the U.S. elections, the
British
government for the first time recognized atheism in the new
framework
as a belief system that should be taught alongside "traditional"
faiths to British schoolchildren.
Gee, just goes to show you that even smart people, can be stupid.
How is something everyone is born as, a belief system? How can it be
a
belief system, when you have to be taught, not to have it?
Keep trying Young, one of these days, you might finally be able to
comprehend the simple fact, that atheism is a LACK of belief.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor
A.A #1143 PLONKED by Bob
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
I'll leave you to do your own research asswipe, but the federal courts
have agreed with me time and again.
No they haven't.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
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| User: "Dave Holloway" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism is its own belief system |
24 Mar 2005 06:45:36 PM |
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On 23 Mar 2005 21:44:09 -0800, "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com>
wrote:
http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005a/032505/032505q.php
Atheism is its own belief system
New British education framework pulls atheists off pedestal of
neutrality
The curious relationship between church and state in Great Britain took
a little-noted shift this fall with the release of a new "national
framework" for religious education in British schools. Largely
drowned out in the babel leading up to the U.S. elections, the British
government for the first time recognized atheism in the new framework
as a belief system that should be taught alongside "traditional"
faiths to British schoolchildren.
Oh for the love of everlasting bullfuck, is Jeffrey Young still alive?
Dave
--
From the warped mind of Dave Holloway, a.a.#1184
Quotemeister Emeritus
Director, EAC Mars Division
Atheological Thinking: http://myweb.cableone.net/silentdave
The TGE Project: http://myweb.cableone.net/silentdave/tge.htm
"Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense."
--Chapman Cohen
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| User: "Roedy Green" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism is its own belief system |
25 Mar 2005 03:37:14 AM |
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On 23 Mar 2005 21:44:09 -0800, "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote
or quoted :
Atheism is its own belief system
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god
than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other
possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
~ Stephen Roberts
Republicans claim to believe Bush when he tells them UA Flight 93
was hijacked by Saudi terrorists who were not aboard.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
See http://mindprod.com/iraq.html photos of Bush's war crimes
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| User: "Roedy Green" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism is its own belief system |
24 Mar 2005 01:34:34 AM |
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On 23 Mar 2005 21:44:09 -0800, "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote
or quoted :
The curious relationship between church and state in Great Britain took
a little-noted shift this fall with the release of a new "national
framework" for religious education in British schools. Largely
drowned out in the babel leading up to the U.S. elections, the British
government for the first time recognized atheism in the new framework
as a belief system that should be taught alongside "traditional"
faiths to British schoolchildren.
In that case, you will need words to describe people who don't believe
in:
fairies
leprechauns
elves
alien abductions
ghosts
the risen Elvis
There is more evidence for any of them than for any of the official
religions.
Republicans claim to believe Bush when he tells them UA Flight 93
was hijacked by Saudi terrorists who were not aboard.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
See http://mindprod.com/iraq.html photos of Bush's war crimes
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| User: "JPG" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism is its own belief system |
24 Mar 2005 07:15:06 AM |
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On 23 Mar 2005 21:44:09 -0800, "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005a/032505/032505q.php
Atheism is its own belief system
New British education framework pulls atheists off pedestal of
neutrality
The curious relationship between church and state in Great Britain took
a little-noted shift this fall with the release of a new "national
framework" for religious education in British schools. Largely
drowned out in the babel leading up to the U.S. elections
No it wasn't, not in the UK anyway
, the British
government for the first time recognized atheism in the new framework
as a belief system
So, what's your problem. Atheists believe there are no god(s), this non-belief
may be called a "system". It might be called a philosophy. It is definitely
not a religion as it has no teachings, no dogma, no revelation.
that should be taught alongside "traditional"
faiths to British schoolchildren.
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism is its own belief system |
25 Mar 2005 11:25:33 AM |
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On 23 Mar 2005 21:44:09 -0800, "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005a/032505/032505q.php
Atheism is its own belief system
New British education framework pulls atheists off pedestal of
neutrality
The curious relationship between church and state in Great Britain took
a little-noted shift this fall with the release of a new "national
framework" for religious education in British schools. Largely
drowned out in the babel leading up to the U.S. elections, the British
government for the first time recognized atheism in the new framework
as a belief system that should be taught alongside "traditional"
faiths to British schoolchildren.
Hardly surprising, when the PM, is a superstitious little wank stain.
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