Religions > Atheism > Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"SongBookz" |
| Date: |
21 Nov 2006 10:36:54 PM |
| Object: |
Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
Everyone has endured the accusations of the adherents of the Athiest
religion in these groups, this article is submitted for discussion purposes
since it is topical to those discussions:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20061121/cm_csm/ydsouza
Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history
By Dinesh D'SouzaTue Nov 21, 3:00 AM ET
In recent months, a spate of atheist books have argued that religion
represents, as "End of Faith" author Sam Harris puts it, "the most potent
source of human conflict, past and present."
Columnist Robert Kuttner gives the familiar litany. "The Crusades
slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the
torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did
bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries."
In his bestseller "The God Delusion," Richard Dawkins contends that most of
the world's recent conflicts - in the Middle East, in the Balkans, in
Northern Ireland, in Kashmir, and in Sri Lanka - show the vitality of
religion's murderous impulse.
The problem with this critique is that it exaggerates the crimes attributed
to religion, while ignoring the greater crimes of secular fanaticism. The
best example of religious persecution in America is the Salem witch trials.
How many people were killed in those trials? Thousands? Hundreds? Actually,
fewer than 25. Yet the event still haunts the liberal imagination.
It is strange to witness the passion with which some secular figures rail
against the misdeeds of the Crusaders and Inquisitors more than 500 years
ago. The number sentenced to death by the Spanish Inquisition appears to be
about 10,000. Some historians contend that an additional 100,000 died in
jail due to malnutrition or illness.
These figures are tragic, and of course population levels were much lower at
the time. But even so, they are minuscule compared with the death tolls
produced by the atheist despotisms of the 20th century. In the name of
creating their version of a religion-free utopia, Adolf Hitler, Joseph
Stalin, and Mao Zedong produced the kind of mass slaughter that no
Inquisitor could possibly match. Collectively these atheist tyrants murdered
more than 100 million people.
Moreover, many of the conflicts that are counted as "religious wars" were
not fought over religion. They were mainly fought over rival claims to
territory and power. Can the wars between England and France be called
religious wars because the English were Protestants and the French were
Catholics? Hardly.
The same is true today. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not, at its
core, a religious one. It arises out of a dispute over self-determination
and land. Hamas and the extreme orthodox parties in Israel may advance
theological claims - "God gave us this land" and so forth - but the conflict
would remain essentially the same even without these religious motives.
Ethnic rivalry, not religion, is the source of the tension in Northern
Ireland and the Balkans.
p>Yet today's atheists insist on making religion the culprit. Consider Mr.
Harris's analysis of the conflict in Sri Lanka. "While the motivations of
the Tamil Tigers are not explicitly religious," he informs us, "they are
Hindus who undoubtedly believe many improbable things about the nature of
life and death." In other words, while the Tigers see themselves as
combatants in a secular political struggle, Harris detects a religious
motive because these people happen to be Hindu and surely there must be some
underlying religious craziness that explains their fanaticism.
Harris can go on forever in this vein. Seeking to exonerate secularism and
atheism from the horrors perpetrated in their name, he argues that Stalinism
and Maoism were in reality "little more than a political religion." As for
Nazism, "while the hatred of Jews in Germany expressed itself in a
predominantly secular way, it was a direct inheritance from medieval
Christianity." Indeed, "The holocaust marked the culmination of ... two
thousand years of Christian fulminating against the Jews."
One finds the same inanities in Mr. Dawkins's work. Don't be fooled by this
rhetorical legerdemain. Dawkins and Harris cannot explain why, if Nazism was
directly descended from medieval Christianity, medieval Christianity did not
produce a Hitler. How can a self-proclaimed atheist ideology, advanced by
Hitler as a repudiation of Christianity, be a "culmination" of 2,000 years
of Christianity? Dawkins and Harris are employing a transparent sleight of
hand that holds Christianity responsible for the crimes committed in its
name, while exonerating secularism and atheism for the greater crimes
committed in their name.
Religious fanatics have done things that are impossible to defend, and some
of them, mostly in the Muslim world, are still performing horrors in the
name of their creed. But if religion sometimes disposes people to
self-righteousness and absolutism, it also provides a moral code that
condemns the slaughter of innocents. In particular, the moral teachings of
Jesus provide no support for - indeed they stand as a stern rebuke to - the
historical injustices perpetrated in the name of Christianity.
Atheist hubrisThe crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through
a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of values. Using
the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to displace God
and create a secular utopia here on earth. Of course if some people - the
Jews, the landowners, the unfit, or the handicapped - have to be eliminated
in order to achieve this utopia, this is a price the atheist tyrants and
their apologists have shown themselves quite willing to pay. Thus they
confirm the truth of Fyodor Dostoyevsky's dictum, "If God is not, everything
is permitted."
Whatever the motives for atheist bloodthirstiness, the indisputable fact is
that all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not
managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in
the past few decades.
It's time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that religious belief
has been the greatest source of human conflict and violence. Atheism, not
religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history.
* Dinesh D'Souza is the Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution. His new
book, "The Enemy at Home: The Cultural Left and Its Responsibility for
9/11," will be published in January.
Copyright © 2006 The Christian Science Monitor
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| User: "yahu" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
26 Nov 2006 08:10:44 AM |
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On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 00:19:46 GMT"SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> lost the
following message with
news:C45ah.6485$yf7.5933@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net:
"Yahu" <yahu@elephantineis.eg> wrote in message
news:Xns98865A180CC94darn@217.209.156.205...
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:45:17 GMT"SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> lost
the following message with
news:hg_8h.9048$6t.5963@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com:
<snip>
By the way, I would not want to be associated with you in my basic
philosophies for you see no problem with your god creating malformed
children for you and yours to attend so you can feel good. That by
itself would stop me from ever wanting to associate with the likes of
you in daily
life.
NOWHERE have I said that God created malformed children - "allowed" is
You don't have to, it's implicit in the claims made by a xianity, as well
as the other revealed mythologies in the desert. You see, according to
official rumor, your god did it all and knows everything that is going to
pass. And yet, you deny or limit your god and his ability to create?
another matter. God created two perfect human beings, Adam and Eve,
Actually, no he did not. It was Marduk who created the black haired
people who were the original inhabitants of the earth. A mythology that
predate yours by the way.
through their sin, imperfection entered the world which eventually has
Original sin is a xian concept, it is not found in the Hebrew Bible.
Perchance you would like to explain to your god why it took you and
people like you to find this particular way out of holding your god
accountable for its actions. By the way, there is no original sin of
that stupidity, deliberate self-imposed stupidity and ignorance is the
death knoll of nations. At this stage of the game, it may be the death
knoll of the world. Feel free to the wall in your ignorance & self-pity,
it appears you are not good enough to be a man capable of walking on his
own 2 feet & living a good life helping others without the carrot and
stick up his xianity.
led to many ills in our society like malformed children, disease,
death and atheism and other forms of insanity. It was not God who
created malformity, but man who created it through disobedience.
In a world your god created, imperfection would not have been possible
for that which is perfect would not be able to comprehend a particular
activity/state/concept. Yet, we live in an imperfect world which speaks
volumes about your particular claim for your god, a god you must adore
even though it's history says adulation is not anything is entitled to.
And yet, these malformed children are a blessing to those who take the
time to know them.
Of course they are, they give you a reason to not only do something
worthwhile, but to point out all good you really are. I would have a lot
more respect for you had I found out by accident that you were involved
in taking care of children that your gods could not see fit to permit to
be born fully human and functional. Yet, that information came from you
in is a bit of bragging about how good of a person you really are.
Nothing personal, but a god that is willing to permit a malformed child
to be born, once so malformed that he will be depended upon others to
exist the remainder of its unnatural life, can go suck a bullet for it is
unworthy of life itself. It's not really a very complicated concept,
though I can understand why you would not be able to accept it for
yourself.
As to associating with me in daily life - I imagine few would care to.
I am much more comfortable with my books, music, prayer and
Books are a delight, music can be beneficial to all, prayer, well nothing
works like prayer, exactly like prayer. The reason I would not want to
associate with the likes of you in daily life is because you are
spineless. You are willingly spineless and that is the part that would
not work for me. Your beliefs are so fragile you cannot even question
them. You may pretend to do so, but serious questioning is out of the
question.
meditation than I am with people. I usually keep a "Do not Disturb"
sign taped to my apartment door and enjoy my solitude surrounded by
good books and classical music ... so, if you were tempted to get
friendly, please don't - I don't care to associate with you either.
That doesn't mean that God wouldn't tell me if you were hungry or in
need, He has prompted me to drop a few bags of groceries on people's
doorsteps late at night or meet other needs as I am able - but I'd
just as soon my neighbors were unaware and thought me unfriendly.
My neighbors are very much aware of me, and they know I prefer my
solitude to needless chatter. We meet on the street, we don't stop and
talk, we simply give each other a nod. Should we happen to have
something to bring to the other's attention, of course we would stop and
mention it. But solitude and time to think are two things I cherish.
But the real reason I would disassociate myself from you in real life has
nothing to do with you being a xian but an individual who is incapable of
understanding or caring about the fact that ultimately, like any other
parent, if their gods do exist they are totally responsible for
everything that happens to their children. Every damn one of their
children. So no, it's not the fact that you are xian that is repulsive,
it's your moral/ethical bankruptcy. That you used your support for these
children as evidence of loving god & how wonderful you yourself are, just
adds to the ethical bankruptcy that I perceive you are laden with.
Yahu
--
BACCHUS, n. A convenient deity invented by the ancients as an
excuse for getting drunk. Devil's dictionary
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| User: "Nicola" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
26 Nov 2006 01:27:46 PM |
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On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 00:19:46 GMT, "SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net>
wrote:
"Yahu" <yahu@elephantineis.eg> wrote in message
news:Xns98865A180CC94darn@217.209.156.205...
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:45:17 GMT"SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> lost the
following message with
news:hg_8h.9048$6t.5963@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com:
<snip>
By the way, I would not want to be associated with you in my basic
philosophies for you see no problem with your god creating malformed
children for you and yours to attend so you can feel good. That by itself
would stop me from ever wanting to associate with the likes of you in
daily
life.
NOWHERE have I said that God created malformed children - "allowed" is
another matter. God created two perfect human beings, Adam and Eve, through
their sin, imperfection entered the world which eventually has led to many
ills in our society like malformed children, disease, death and atheism and
other forms of insanity. It was not God who created malformity, but man who
created it through disobedience.
If there were a god and what you say were true, then god could not be
omniscient. Either he knew that they would sin and made them anyway
(in which case god is the sinner), or he did not make them perfect (in
which case he makes mistakes). Whichever option you choose, your own
words condemn god as either evil or incompetent.
Nicola
--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDem
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| User: "Cazador" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
25 Nov 2006 07:36:11 PM |
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SongBookz wrote:
"Yahu" <yahu@elephantineis.eg> wrote in message
news:Xns98865A180CC94darn@217.209.156.205...
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:45:17 GMT"SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> lost the
following message with
news:hg_8h.9048$6t.5963@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com:
<snip>
By the way, I would not want to be associated with you in my basic
philosophies for you see no problem with your god creating malformed
children for you and yours to attend so you can feel good. That by itself
would stop me from ever wanting to associate with the likes of you in
daily
life.
NOWHERE have I said that God created malformed children - "allowed" is
another matter. God created two perfect human beings, Adam and Eve, through
their sin, imperfection entered the world which eventually has led to many
ills in our society like malformed children, disease, death and atheism and
other forms of insanity. It was not God who created malformity, but man who
created it through disobedience.
And yet, these malformed children are a blessing to those who take the time
to know them.
As to associating with me in daily life - I imagine few would care to. I am
much more comfortable with my books, music, prayer and meditation than I am
with people. I usually keep a "Do not Disturb" sign taped to my apartment
door and enjoy my solitude surrounded by good books and classical music ...
so, if you were tempted to get friendly, please don't - I don't care to
associate with you either. That doesn't mean that God wouldn't tell me if
you were hungry or in need, He has prompted me to drop a few bags of
groceries on people's doorsteps late at night or meet other needs as I am
able - but I'd just as soon my neighbors were unaware and thought me
unfriendly.
We all have the right to a reclusive existence.
--
Terrell D Lewis
http://www.songbookz.com
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| User: "Voracious" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murdersof history |
26 Nov 2006 09:14:06 AM |
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SongBookz wrote:
"Yahu" <yahu@elephantineis.eg> wrote in message
news:Xns98865A180CC94darn@217.209.156.205...
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:45:17 GMT"SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> lost the
following message with
news:hg_8h.9048$6t.5963@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com:
<snip>
By the way, I would not want to be associated with you in my basic
philosophies for you see no problem with your god creating malformed
children for you and yours to attend so you can feel good. That by itself
would stop me from ever wanting to associate with the likes of you in
daily
life.
NOWHERE have I said that God created malformed children - "allowed" is
another matter. God created two perfect human beings, Adam and Eve, through
their sin, imperfection entered the world which eventually has led to many
ills in our society like malformed children, disease, death and atheism and
other forms of insanity. It was not God who created malformity, but man who
created it through disobedience.
Yet, "God" in his Omniscience, knew Man would disobey, yet created him
anyway. "God" created a flawed system *knowing* that there would be
corruption! Sort of like a Microsoft operating system!
"God" is therefore responsible for creating the condition(s) in which
imperfection would *knowingly* arise! "God" = "Bill Gates?" ;>)
Voracious
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
26 Nov 2006 02:26:23 PM |
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Voracious wrote:
SongBookz wrote:
"Yahu" <yahu@elephantineis.eg> wrote in message
news:Xns98865A180CC94darn@217.209.156.205...
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:45:17 GMT"SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> lost
the following message with
news:hg_8h.9048$6t.5963@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com:
<snip>
By the way, I would not want to be associated with you in my basic
philosophies for you see no problem with your god creating malformed
children for you and yours to attend so you can feel good. That by
itself would stop me from ever wanting to associate with the likes
of you in daily
life.
NOWHERE have I said that God created malformed children - "allowed"
is another matter. God created two perfect human beings, Adam and
Eve, through their sin, imperfection entered the world which
eventually has led to many ills in our society like malformed
children, disease, death and atheism and other forms of insanity. It was
not God who created malformity, but man who created it
through disobedience.
Yet, "God" in his Omniscience, knew Man would disobey, yet created him
anyway. "God" created a flawed system *knowing* that there would be
corruption! Sort of like a Microsoft operating system!
"God" is therefore responsible for creating the condition(s) in which
imperfection would *knowingly* arise! "God" = "Bill Gates?" ;>)
Hardly. A major study done by IBM well before the PC was around showed that
almost any bug fix in a major program would reveal another bug.
As for this god creating perfect people, it is clear that it did not. Even a
reasonably bright person would, using his free will (Since it's a christian
god, women are not important) would believe this god and would not have
sinned. They could not be perfect and not known the truth of this god's
word.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the massmurders of history |
26 Nov 2006 12:47:18 PM |
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On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 04:36:54 +0000, SongBookz wrote:
Everyone has endured the accusations of the adherents of the Athiest
religion in these groups, this article is submitted for discussion purposes
since it is topical to those discussions:
Speaking of the point I made elsewhere with you, here's the head of this
thread. Posted by *you and cross posted by *you.
Typical. Theists love to cross post into alt.atheism then ***** about
atheists being in the newsgroups to which the theist cross posted the
thread the theist started...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"Creationists criticize evolutionists for the demeaning idea
of 'coming from apes' and say that man is more noble than
that, and then have sermons where man is called a miserable
worm worthy to be burned eternally in hell."
-William Bagley
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
22 Nov 2006 12:28:13 AM |
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On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 04:36:54 GMT, "SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net>
wrote:
Everyone has endured the accusations of the adherents of the Athiest
religion
Oh, shut the ***** up.
in these groups, this article is submitted for discussion purposes
since it is topical to those discussions:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20061121/cm_csm/ydsouza
Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history
By Dinesh D'SouzaTue Nov 21, 3:00 AM ET
D'Souza is a moron.
End of discussion.
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| User: "SongBookz" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
22 Nov 2006 12:43:10 AM |
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"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:6dr7m25g0s04jesuql4bft5r3525iqakn6@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 04:36:54 GMT, "SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net>
wrote:
Everyone has endured the accusations of the adherents of the Athiest
religion
Oh, shut the ***** up.
Am I to assume that these manners are typical of Atheists?
--
Terrell D Lewis
http://www.songbookz.com
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| User: "Brian Westley" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
22 Nov 2006 10:29:27 AM |
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"SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> writes:
"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:6dr7m25g0s04jesuql4bft5r3525iqakn6@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 04:36:54 GMT, "SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net>
wrote:
Everyone has endured the accusations of the adherents of the Athiest
religion
Oh, shut the ***** up.
Am I to assume that these manners are typical of Atheists?
No. Shut the ***** up.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
22 Nov 2006 03:52:16 AM |
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"SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> wrote in message
news:2kS8h.14188$Sw1.4180@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:6dr7m25g0s04jesuql4bft5r3525iqakn6@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 04:36:54 GMT, "SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net>
wrote:
Everyone has endured the accusations of the adherents of the Athiest
religion
Oh, shut the ***** up.
Am I to assume that these manners are typical of Atheists?
Am I to assume that all theists are hypocrital liars just because you are?
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
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| User: "Frank Mayhar" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the massmurders of history |
22 Nov 2006 10:56:44 AM |
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On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 06:43:10 +0000, SongBookz wrote:
"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:6dr7m25g0s04jesuql4bft5r3525iqakn6@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 04:36:54 GMT, "SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net>
wrote:
Everyone has endured the accusations of the adherents of the Athiest
religion
Let's see, how many *****-ups can he do in one sentence. Well, of course
there's the obvious typo, as well as the fact that the word is capitalized
and should not be, so that's a two-fer. Then there's what he intends to
be the phrase "atheist religion," which is an oxymoron, since atheism
doesn't involve religion, pretty much by definition. Plus he's referring
to "adherents" to (only he uses the word "of," which is wrong, one adheres
_to_ something) the "religion," which obviously is impossible since it's
not a "religion" in the first place. Next he claims that these
"adherents" are making "accusations," but he doesn't bother to explain
what these "accusations" refer to, so I guess that we're just supposed to
take that claim on faith, not fucking likely. Finally he claims that
"everyone has endured" these "accusations." Well, even if his claim that
someone is making such "accusations" is true, which I don't grant, they
would hardly be directed at "everyone." I'm part of "everyone" and _I_
certainly haven't had to "endure" such "accusations."
So how many *****-ups is that? I lost count.
Oh, shut the ***** up.
Am I to assume that these manners are typical of Atheists?
When dealing with the typical theist bigoted moron such as yourself, well,
"manners" are not what is called for.
Some of us just don't suffer fools gladly, or at all.
--
Frank Mayhar frank@exit.com http://www.exit.com/
Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/
http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
22 Nov 2006 10:07:30 AM |
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On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 06:43:10 GMT, "SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net>
wrote:
"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:6dr7m25g0s04jesuql4bft5r3525iqakn6@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 04:36:54 GMT, "SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net>
wrote:
Everyone has endured the accusations of the adherents of the Athiest
religion
Oh, shut the ***** up.
Am I to assume that these manners are typical of Atheists?
You may assume that these manners are typical of those, atheist or
not, who are fed up with the willful ignorance and deliberate
obtuseness of a dishonest Usenet troll whose intelligence quotient as
displayed in his posts places him squarely on the trailing edge of the
bell curve.
Atheism is not a religion. It never has been, and no matter how often
you and your dictionary claim otherwise, it never will be. You've been
told this at least a dozen times, both by atheists and by reasonable
theists, yet you either refuse to acknowledge this fact - which makes
you a troll - or you're incapable of comprehending it - which makes
you a brainwashed idiot. In either case, there is little point in
trying any further to educate you on the subject. I can't speak for
any of the other members of this group, of course, but for my part,
I'll waste no time trying to teach a pig to sing.
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| User: "Chris Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
22 Nov 2006 01:49:21 AM |
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SongBookz wrote:
"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:6dr7m25g0s04jesuql4bft5r3525iqakn6@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 04:36:54 GMT, "SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net>
wrote:
Everyone has endured the accusations of the adherents of the Athiest
religion
Oh, shut the ***** up.
Am I to assume that these manners are typical of Atheists?
Only if you lack enough sense to realize that
a) any group is diverse, and generalizing from a relatively small
number of samples is unlikely to give an accurate picture of the whole;
b) disbelief of gods is all that atheists necessarily have in common.
However, you're not likely to get polite responses when you say things
like "Athiest religion". First of all, it's "atheist" (lowercase a; e
before i), and a lack of belief in gods hardly constitutes a religion.
I do not consider theism a religion, either. Both are simply
descriptors of one aspect of any number of larger worldviews.
Taking this back out to your original post, on which I was not
previously inclined to comment, this means that atheism is not itself
responsible for the deaths of millions of people, just like theism is
not itself responsible for the deaths of however many people were
killed at the hands of theists.
This whole "blame it all on atheism/religion" bit is getting tired. It
isn't the lack/presence of belief in gods that we should blame for
murders, genocides, and whatnot. It is the other aspects of the
ideologies. A core tenet of Nazism was the superiority of the Aryan
race, and the abject inferiority of the Jews (among others). This is
one of the aspects we should be blaming, not Hitler's theism, or the
anti-clerical nature of the Nazi movement. Similar claims can be made
regarding the other totalitarian states of the past century, and no
doubt of the various theistic atrocities throughout the ages.
As Sam Harris puts it, the problem is irrational beliefs; certainty in
a proposition that does not correspond to the evidence for that
proposition. So the Communists lacked the god-belief, but they did not
lack for others that are just as preposterous.
And we may now ask, "Why rant against religions and theism, if
atheistic worldviews can provide such harbors for dangerous and
irrational ideas, as well?" And the answer is simple. Because religions
*inherently* harbor irrational ideas. Every Christian I've discussed
the matter with (in real life; people here are nutters) eventually
admits that their belief in God requires a leap of faith. There is no
direct evidence for the existence of God, but they believe it anyway.
This is irrational, whether they are right or wrong. They now have an
irrational worldview, and dangerous beliefs about the world can now be
protected from scrutiny because their God told them it was so. Muslims
can believe that killing a busload of children in the name of Allah,
and unless we apply scrutiny to the idea of Allah in the first place,
there is essentially no foothold to combat this belief. Similarly,
Christians at one point believed that torture could be condoned as a
means of conversion, since the unconverted would be tortured in hell
anyway.
So it's not so much religion, as irrationality that we blame for all
these deaths and atrocities. Religion just provides a hell of a shelter
for irrationality, and as a society we grant an undue degree of respect
for religious beliefs.
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| User: "Cazador" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
23 Nov 2006 02:43:49 PM |
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Chris Johnson wrote:
SongBookz wrote:
"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:6dr7m25g0s04jesuql4bft5r3525iqakn6@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 04:36:54 GMT, "SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net>
wrote:
Everyone has endured the accusations of the adherents of the Athiest
religion
Oh, shut the ***** up.
Am I to assume that these manners are typical of Atheists?
Only if you lack enough sense to realize that
a) any group is diverse, and generalizing from a relatively small
number of samples is unlikely to give an accurate picture of the whole;
b) disbelief of gods is all that atheists necessarily have in common.
However, you're not likely to get polite responses when you say things
like "Athiest religion". First of all, it's "atheist" (lowercase a; e
before i), and a lack of belief in gods hardly constitutes a religion.
I do not consider theism a religion, either. Both are simply
descriptors of one aspect of any number of larger worldviews.
In the first paragraph you speak of "disbelief in gods" as being the
only unifying characteristic of atheists. Looked at closely this
position is profoundly religious. It is so as it requires a leap of
faith which agnostics are unwilling to make. This leap of faith is a
religious or quasi-religous suspension of the critical faculty.
Taking this back out to your original post, on which I was not
previously inclined to comment, this means that atheism is not itself
responsible for the deaths of millions of people, just like theism is
not itself responsible for the deaths of however many people were
killed at the hands of theists.
Scientists look for correlations in the data. The greater they may be
the more likely it is that they are approaching a fundamental
principle. For the most part they function in degrees of inductive
probability, not deuctive certainty. In this sense they would find it
very suggestive to discover such a distinct correlation between atheism
and mass murder. 100,000,000 million deaths in the 20th Century at the
hands of atheists is a startling fact. They might not have all the
causal connections figured out, and there may be other factors to
consider but they're on to something which needs to be studied. This
mode of thinking is natural to human intelligence; It's a mode related
to survival which goes back into the antediluvian mists. If one finds
the fresh track of a sabre tooth tiger in the bush, the beast is likely
but not certainly in the vicinity. How fresh was that track!?
This whole "blame it all on atheism/religion" bit is getting tired. It
isn't the lack/presence of belief in gods that we should blame for
murders, genocides, and whatnot. It is the other aspects of the
ideologies. A core tenet of Nazism was the superiority of the Aryan
race, and the abject inferiority of the Jews (among others). This is
one of the aspects we should be blaming, not Hitler's theism, or the
anti-clerical nature of the Nazi movement. Similar claims can be made
regarding the other totalitarian states of the past century, and no
doubt of the various theistic atrocities throughout the ages.
The point is missed here. Once one admits the close association, the
close correlation, of ideological atheism with mass murder it is
required to follow where that might lead. Why is it so closely
associated with these deaths? What, if any, was the mechanism which
linked them. To me the answer is apparent. Militant atheism was used as
a tool to atomize society, to destroy its traditional moral and ethical
systems so that they could be replaced with doctrines such as those
displayed by Leon Trotsky in his article, "Their Morals and Ours," the
gist of which was to discard traditional systems in favor of "socialist
morality" which in turn ended up being little more than something to be
determined by the leadership. In other words it freed the totalitarian
leadership from traditional moral restraints and political pressures
related to them. It was a technique of social control. Militant atheism
was an important part of the Marxist/Leninist program. It was very
capable of abuse and was abused. On an individual level a man's athiesm
may be meaningless. At the level of the nation state and empire it was
critical in the 20th Century.
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
21 Nov 2006 11:13:06 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet SongBookz
(NOSPAM@NOWAY.net) made the light shine upon us with this:
Everyone has endured the accusations of the adherents of the Athiest
religion in these groups, this article is submitted for discussion
purposes since it is topical to those discussions:
The author claims more people were killed by atheist tyrants than by
Christians. But there are two problems he doesn't mention to avoid self-
incrimination.
1. Numbers don't mean a thing when murder is involved. Why is one
murder so much better than ten? Or 10,000 so much better than
10,000,000?
2. Hitler was not an atheist, this point has been refuted to death.
Move six million murders back to the enemy side.
Three problems, there are THREE PROBLEMS.
3. The atheists mentioned did not kill others in the name of atheism,
did they? The Spanish Inquisition, OTOH, killed in the name of religion
for the crime of heresy. The Muslims today are blowing themselves up in
hopes of taking a few infidels with them.
OK, reality check. Most Christians are nice people. It's the
fundamentalists of any religion that have to be reckoned with.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Proud member of Earthquack's "Ghost fulla holes" convict page
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
06 Dec 2006 03:42:25 PM |
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Uncle Vic wrote:
2. Hitler was not an atheist, this point has been refuted to death.
Move six million murders back to the enemy side.
Er, not to be pedantic or anything, but 13 million people died in the
Holocaust. Six million were Jews, making them the single biggest
group. However, there were seven million others - Gypsies, Bolsheviks,
Slavs, homosexuals, trade unionists, and assorted other people that the
Reich didn't like. Let's not forget that other seven million. Hitler
and his minions deserve all the blame we can lay at their feet.
Just sayin'.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
06 Dec 2006 03:57:07 PM |
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In article <1165441345.610222.142610@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com> "skyeyes" <skyeyes@dakotacom.net> writes:
Uncle Vic wrote:
2. Hitler was not an atheist, this point has been refuted to death.
Move six million murders back to the enemy side.
Er, not to be pedantic or anything, but 13 million people died in the
Holocaust. Six million were Jews, making them the single biggest
group. However, there were seven million others - Gypsies, Bolsheviks,
Slavs, homosexuals, trade unionists, and assorted other people that the
Reich didn't like. Let's not forget that other seven million. Hitler
and his minions deserve all the blame we can lay at their feet.
Just sayin'.
And what so often gets overlooked is: whatever Hitler's beliefs
or lack thereof, those "minions" who pulled the triggers, packed
the boxcars, stoked the ovens, and dropped the pellets were
recruited from a nation that was overwhelmingly Catholic,
Lutheran, and a smaller assortment of other Protestant
denominations.
-- cary
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| User: "David Schwartz" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
21 Nov 2006 11:55:14 PM |
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Uncle Vic wrote:
3. The atheists mentioned did not kill others in the name of atheism,
did they? The Spanish Inquisition, OTOH, killed in the name of religion
for the crime of heresy. The Muslims today are blowing themselves up in
hopes of taking a few infidels with them.
Not only did most atheists not kill in the name of atheism, but many of
them killed in the name of philosophies that are wrong for the same
reasons theism is wrong. That is, the root evil is the same.
It's funny that the author almost says this:
"The crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through
a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of values.
Using
the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to displace
God
and create a secular utopia here on earth. Of course if some people -
the
Jews, the landowners, the unfit, or the handicapped - have to be
eliminated
in order to achieve this utopia, this is a price the atheist tyrants
and
their apologists have shown themselves quite willing to pay."
Most modern atheists would likely point out that those who kill in the
name of religion and those who kill in the name of non-religious goals
suffer from the same flaws. Flaws which religion legitimizes. Those who
think man should be subservient to a superior god are on the same side
as those who think he should be subservient to superior men.
Also, the author is just wrong the religion is not a motivating factor
in things like the Arab/Israeli conflict. The Arabs and Israelis aren't
just fighting over ownership of land, many Arabs want all the Jews
dead, including those that have no interest in any of their land. Many
Islamics side with the Arabs (and supply them with money and weapons)
for reasons largely based on religion. (Why do most Jews support the
Israelis and most Islamics support the Arabs if it's basically a
conflict over land?)
DS
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| User: "SongBookz" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
22 Nov 2006 12:40:44 AM |
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"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote in message
news:1164174914.639012.77060@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Uncle Vic wrote:
3. The atheists mentioned did not kill others in the name of atheism,
did they? The Spanish Inquisition, OTOH, killed in the name of religion
for the crime of heresy. The Muslims today are blowing themselves up in
hopes of taking a few infidels with them.
Not only did most atheists not kill in the name of atheism, but many of
them killed in the name of philosophies that are wrong for the same
reasons theism is wrong. That is, the root evil is the same.
Which points out a major flaw in the article: Atheism is usually just a
doctrine of one's real religion, Humanism, Communism, etc. thus the
"atheism murders" belong in the religion column too.
It's funny that the author almost says this:
"The crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through
a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of values.
Using
the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to displace
God
and create a secular utopia here on earth. Of course if some people -
the
Jews, the landowners, the unfit, or the handicapped - have to be
eliminated
in order to achieve this utopia, this is a price the atheist tyrants
and
their apologists have shown themselves quite willing to pay."
Most modern atheists would likely point out that those who kill in the
name of religion and those who kill in the name of non-religious goals
suffer from the same flaws. Flaws which religion legitimizes. Those who
think man should be subservient to a superior god are on the same side
as those who think he should be subservient to superior men.
Also, the author is just wrong the religion is not a motivating factor
in things like the Arab/Israeli conflict. The Arabs and Israelis aren't
just fighting over ownership of land, many Arabs want all the Jews
dead, including those that have no interest in any of their land. Many
Islamics side with the Arabs (and supply them with money and weapons)
for reasons largely based on religion. (Why do most Jews support the
Israelis and most Islamics support the Arabs if it's basically a
conflict over land?)
To some extent you are right here - the Islamics resent that non-Muslins
were given former Islamic land, but with Hamas, it is a hatred of Jews, not
just Judiasm, thus racism has as much a role as religion. Same with the
reason many Jews support Israel, one can be a Jew and not practice Judiasm,
some Jews support Israel for the same reason some Irish-American support
Ireland, etc.
Things are not always simple, I think that blaming all these things on
religion is actually simplistic - most wars have been fought for:
1 The earliest wars were fought for spoils
2 With the rise of larger empires like the Hittites, Chaldeans and so
forth, wars were fought for territory
3 The first record of a war being fought for religion was the Israeli
conquest of Canaan
4 Then there are the wars fought over ethnic differences
The Israel/Palestinian conflict has elements of at least the last three and
there is occasionally speculation about the first - of how the Arabs paid
little attention to the area until the Jews made the desert green.
--
Terrell D Lewis
http://www.songbookz.com
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
22 Nov 2006 03:51:34 AM |
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"SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> wrote in message
news:MhS8h.14186$Sw1.7801@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote in message
news:1164174914.639012.77060@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Uncle Vic wrote:
3. The atheists mentioned did not kill others in the name of atheism,
did they? The Spanish Inquisition, OTOH, killed in the name of religion
for the crime of heresy. The Muslims today are blowing themselves up in
hopes of taking a few infidels with them.
Not only did most atheists not kill in the name of atheism, but many of
them killed in the name of philosophies that are wrong for the same
reasons theism is wrong. That is, the root evil is the same.
Which points out a major flaw in the article: Atheism is usually just a
doctrine of one's real religion, Humanism, Communism, etc. thus the
"atheism murders" belong in the religion column too.
Wrong - You're opinion isn't fact. Deal.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
22 Nov 2006 01:42:22 AM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet SongBookz
(NOSPAM@NOWAY.net) made the light shine upon us with this:
"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote in message
news:1164174914.639012.77060@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Uncle Vic wrote:
3. The atheists mentioned did not kill others in the name of
atheism, did they? The Spanish Inquisition, OTOH, killed in the
name of religion for the crime of heresy. The Muslims today are
blowing themselves up in hopes of taking a few infidels with them.
Not only did most atheists not kill in the name of atheism, but many
of them killed in the name of philosophies that are wrong for the
same reasons theism is wrong. That is, the root evil is the same.
Which points out a major flaw in the article: Atheism is usually just
a doctrine of one's real religion, Humanism, Communism, etc. thus
the "atheism murders" belong in the religion column too.
Which "atheism murders" are these? Please enlighten us.
It's funny that the author almost says this:
"The crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through
a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of
values. Using
the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to
displace God
and create a secular utopia here on earth. Of course if some people -
the
Jews, the landowners, the unfit, or the handicapped - have to be
eliminated
in order to achieve this utopia, this is a price the atheist tyrants
and
their apologists have shown themselves quite willing to pay."
Most modern atheists would likely point out that those who kill in
the name of religion and those who kill in the name of non-religious
goals suffer from the same flaws. Flaws which religion legitimizes.
Those who think man should be subservient to a superior god are on
the same side as those who think he should be subservient to superior
men.
Also, the author is just wrong the religion is not a motivating
factor in things like the Arab/Israeli conflict. The Arabs and
Israelis aren't just fighting over ownership of land, many Arabs want
all the Jews dead, including those that have no interest in any of
their land. Many Islamics side with the Arabs (and supply them with
money and weapons) for reasons largely based on religion. (Why do
most Jews support the Israelis and most Islamics support the Arabs if
it's basically a conflict over land?)
To some extent you are right here - the Islamics resent that
non-Muslins were given former Islamic land, <snip>
Given by whom? Mr. Invisible, the loving god of the masses? This whole
concept of the "Chosen Ones" is lost on me. How can a society claim to
be the "Chosen Ones" when they can't even supply evidence that the guy
who chose them actually exists?
<snip>
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Proud member of Earthquack's "Ghost fulla holes" convict page
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| User: "SongBookz" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
22 Nov 2006 09:25:00 AM |
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"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9882F126439FCvicman@66.75.164.120...
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet SongBookz
(NOSPAM@NOWAY.net) made the light shine upon us with this:
"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote in message
news:1164174914.639012.77060@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Uncle Vic wrote:
3. The atheists mentioned did not kill others in the name of
atheism, did they? The Spanish Inquisition, OTOH, killed in the
name of religion for the crime of heresy. The Muslims today are
blowing themselves up in hopes of taking a few infidels with them.
Not only did most atheists not kill in the name of atheism, but many
of them killed in the name of philosophies that are wrong for the
same reasons theism is wrong. That is, the root evil is the same.
Which points out a major flaw in the article: Atheism is usually just
a doctrine of one's real religion, Humanism, Communism, etc. thus
the "atheism murders" belong in the religion column too.
Which "atheism murders" are these? Please enlighten us.
It's funny that the author almost says this:
"The crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through
a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of
values. Using
the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to
displace God
and create a secular utopia here on earth. Of course if some people -
the
Jews, the landowners, the unfit, or the handicapped - have to be
eliminated
in order to achieve this utopia, this is a price the atheist tyrants
and
their apologists have shown themselves quite willing to pay."
Most modern atheists would likely point out that those who kill in
the name of religion and those who kill in the name of non-religious
goals suffer from the same flaws. Flaws which religion legitimizes.
Those who think man should be subservient to a superior god are on
the same side as those who think he should be subservient to superior
men.
Also, the author is just wrong the religion is not a motivating
factor in things like the Arab/Israeli conflict. The Arabs and
Israelis aren't just fighting over ownership of land, many Arabs want
all the Jews dead, including those that have no interest in any of
their land. Many Islamics side with the Arabs (and supply them with
money and weapons) for reasons largely based on religion. (Why do
most Jews support the Israelis and most Islamics support the Arabs if
it's basically a conflict over land?)
To some extent you are right here - the Islamics resent that
non-Muslins were given former Islamic land, <snip>
Given by whom? Mr. Invisible, the loving god of the masses? This whole
concept of the "Chosen Ones" is lost on me. How can a society claim to
be the "Chosen Ones" when they can't even supply evidence that the guy
who chose them actually exists?
The Europeans after the breakup of the Ottoman Empire - boy, you do have a
one-track mind.
--
Terrell D Lewis
http://www.songbookz.com
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| User: "leo" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
22 Nov 2006 03:45:23 PM |
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SongBookz ha escrito:
"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9882F126439FCvicman@66.75.164.120...
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet SongBookz
(NOSPAM@NOWAY.net) made the light shine upon us with this:
"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote in message
news:1164174914.639012.77060@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Uncle Vic wrote:
3. The atheists mentioned did not kill others in the name of
atheism, did they? The Spanish Inquisition, OTOH, killed in the
name of religion for the crime of heresy. The Muslims today are
blowing themselves up in hopes of taking a few infidels with them.
Not only did most atheists not kill in the name of atheism, but many
of them killed in the name of philosophies that are wrong for the
same reasons theism is wrong. That is, the root evil is the same.
Which points out a major flaw in the article: Atheism is usually just
a doctrine of one's real religion, Humanism, Communism, etc. thus
the "atheism murders" belong in the religion column too.
Which "atheism murders" are these? Please enlighten us.
It's funny that the author almost says this:
"The crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through
a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of
values. Using
the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to
displace God
and create a secular utopia here on earth. Of course if some people -
the
Jews, the landowners, the unfit, or the handicapped - have to be
eliminated
in order to achieve this utopia, this is a price the atheist tyrants
and
their apologists have shown themselves quite willing to pay."
Most modern atheists would likely point out that those who kill in
the name of religion and those who kill in the name of non-religious
goals suffer from the same flaws. Flaws which religion legitimizes.
Those who think man should be subservient to a superior god are on
the same side as those who think he should be subservient to superior
men.
Also, the author is just wrong the religion is not a motivating
factor in things like the Arab/Israeli conflict. The Arabs and
Israelis aren't just fighting over ownership of land, many Arabs want
all the Jews dead, including those that have no interest in any of
their land. Many Islamics side with the Arabs (and supply them with
money and weapons) for reasons largely based on religion. (Why do
most Jews support the Israelis and most Islamics support the Arabs if
it's basically a conflict over land?)
To some extent you are right here - the Islamics resent that
non-Muslins were given former Islamic land, <snip>
Given by whom? Mr. Invisible, the loving god of the masses? This whole
concept of the "Chosen Ones" is lost on me. How can a society claim to
be the "Chosen Ones" when they can't even supply evidence that the guy
who chose them actually exists?
The Europeans after the breakup of the Ottoman Empire - boy, you do have a
one-track mind.
--
Terrell D Lewis
http://www.songbookz.com
The English Empire was controling Palestine, and let some Jews to enter
in the land.
But it was mostly the jews themselves that were trying to hide in this
land, as a way to retake the lost fatherland in times of the Roman
Empire. More that the Europeans gave the land to jews, they were only
indifferent to the jews taking hold of the land. Later, the jews got
help either from the US but also from European countries, by ways of
trading with them. In the case of US, they had helped the Jews with
credits to buy arms.
So, in eyes of the Arab people, we had helped the Jews to defeat them
in several wars.
Leopoldo
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| User: "JoelKatz" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
22 Nov 2006 11:01:55 AM |
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SongBookz wrote:
To some extent you are right here - the Islamics resent that non-Muslins
were given former Islamic land, but with Hamas, it is a hatred of Jews, not
just Judiasm, thus racism has as much a role as religion. Same with the
reason many Jews support Israel, one can be a Jew and not practice Judiasm,
some Jews support Israel for the same reason some Irish-American support
Ireland, etc.
I think you are missing the point. Even converted Jews are likely to
show increased support for Israel. You can't explain that by reference
to race. Similarly, Hamas sees no difference between ethnic Jews and
religious converts.
I guess you can argue that the root resentment is racist and the
resentment to converts is just a shadow of that root resentment. Much
like someone who hates blacks might hate a white person who fights for
equal rights for blacks (seeing them as a race traitor).
But the same way you can argue that the root resentment is religious.
Simply put, each side hates the other because the other side hates
them. The origin of the hate is historical and fuzzy. I don't think
there's really any way to separate the racist and religious elements.
DS
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| User: "SongBookz" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
22 Nov 2006 11:19:19 AM |
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"JoelKatz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote in message
news:1164214915.256754.189210@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
SongBookz wrote:
To some extent you are right here - the Islamics resent that non-Muslins
were given former Islamic land, but with Hamas, it is a hatred of Jews,
not
just Judiasm, thus racism has as much a role as religion. Same with the
reason many Jews support Israel, one can be a Jew and not practice
Judiasm,
some Jews support Israel for the same reason some Irish-American support
Ireland, etc.
I think you are missing the point. Even converted Jews are likely to
show increased support for Israel. You can't explain that by reference
to race. Similarly, Hamas sees no difference between ethnic Jews and
religious converts.
I guess you can argue that the root resentment is racist and the
resentment to converts is just a shadow of that root resentment. Much
like someone who hates blacks might hate a white person who fights for
equal rights for blacks (seeing them as a race traitor).
But the same way you can argue that the root resentment is religious.
Simply put, each side hates the other because the other side hates
them. The origin of the hate is historical and fuzzy. I don't think
there's really any way to separate the racist and religious elements.
Good points, but both our views are simplistic - but it is definitely more
complicated than simply blaming religion. Hamas also hated Jews who are
Buddhist or Atheist.
--
Terrell D Lewis
http://www.songbookz.com
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| User: "JoelKatz" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
23 Nov 2006 12:18:18 AM |
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SongBookz wrote:
Good points, but both our views are simplistic - but it is definitely more
complicated than simply blaming religion. Hamas also hated Jews who are
Buddhist or Atheist.
You think Hamas would hate people who are ethnically Jewish but known
to be devout Islamics? Somehow I don't think so.
(But then again, even a person who is racist might like a black person
who he knew personally to have traits in common with him. That doesn't
prove he's not racist.)
DS
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| User: "leo" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
22 Nov 2006 04:02:11 PM |
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JoelKatz ha escrito:
SongBookz wrote:
To some extent you are right here - the Islamics resent that non-Muslins
were given former Islamic land, but with Hamas, it is a hatred of Jews, not
just Judiasm, thus racism has as much a role as religion. Same with the
reason many Jews support Israel, one can be a Jew and not practice Judiasm,
some Jews support Israel for the same reason some Irish-American support
Ireland, etc.
I think you are missing the point. Even converted Jews are likely to
show increased support for Israel. You can't explain that by reference
to race. Similarly, Hamas sees no difference between ethnic Jews and
religious converts.
I guess you can argue that the root resentment is racist and the
resentment to converts is just a shadow of that root resentment. Much
like someone who hates blacks might hate a white person who fights for
equal rights for blacks (seeing them as a race traitor).
But the same way you can argue that the root resentment is religious.
Simply put, each side hates the other because the other side hates
them. The origin of the hate is historical and fuzzy. I don't think
there's really any way to separate the racist and religious elements.
DS
you will have reason if both religions were not sopporting the hate of
the other side. We cannot speak of racism here, for they are not
different races anyway. Their differences are mostly religious, and
here is where stands most of the hate.
Of course, both sides want to own the land, and want to chase the other
out. They would be fighting for the land, even if both had the same
religion. There have been some wars among Islamic nations, and there
is not any scarcity of hate among them. Well, small differences in
religious dogma, could breed hate also. That is the case between
Sunnis and shiites. So, religious differences are at the root of much
of the hate among populations of the world. But they are not the only
cause of hate. Leaders with megalomania can artificially breed hate
among nations. It only take some time to produce a "critical mass" and
start a war. And quite often, leaders use religion as an added
argument to farther the reasons for a war or a conquest. In general,
the religious leaders are coward and do not dare to challenge a tyran
that is using their religion. Tha was the case of Pope, Pius XII. His
silence about the nazi atrocities made him guilty of the nazi crimes.
Leopoldo
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| User: "Cazador" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
23 Nov 2006 02:00:58 PM |
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David Schwartz wrote:
Uncle Vic wrote:
3. The atheists mentioned did not kill others in the name of atheism,
did they? The Spanish Inquisition, OTOH, killed in the name of religion
for the crime of heresy. The Muslims today are blowing themselves up in
hopes of taking a few infidels with them.
Not only did most atheists not kill in the name of atheism, but many of
them killed in the name of philosophies that are wrong for the same
reasons theism is wrong. That is, the root evil is the same.
It's funny that the author almost says this:
"The crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through
a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of values.
Using
the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to displace
God
and create a secular utopia here on earth. Of course if some people -
the
Jews, the landowners, the unfit, or the handicapped - have to be
eliminated
in order to achieve this utopia, this is a price the atheist tyrants
and
their apologists have shown themselves quite willing to pay."
Most modern atheists would likely point out that those who kill in the
name of religion and those who kill in the name of non-religious goals
suffer from the same flaws. Flaws which religion legitimizes. Those who
think man should be subservient to a superior god are on the same side
as those who think he should be subservient to superior men.
I think d' Souza's main point is more elementary, that atheism is
*associated* with more killing than is religion. I think this must be
admitted to be factual. Accordingly the real issue is where this truth
leads us.
Also, the author is just wrong the religion is not a motivating factor
in things like the Arab/Israeli conflict. The Arabs and Israelis aren't
just fighting over ownership of land, many Arabs want all the Jews
dead, including those that have no interest in any of their land. Many
Islamics side with the Arabs (and supply them with money and weapons)
for reasons largely based on religion. (Why do most Jews support the
Israelis and most Islamics support the Arabs if it's basically a
conflict over land?)
D' Souza's argument is that the struggle over land is a "but for"
condition, the fundamental source of the struggle which would not
otherwise exist in its present exacerbated form. There have been
differences forever between Arab and Jew but the present situation is
catastrophic in comparison to what has happened in the past. But for
the struggle over real estate which is at the heart of the struggle
between Zionism and Palestinian nationalism, the situation would not
have reached such a white hot intensity. This is not to say that
religion is not a factor. It's just not a but for condition of the
conflict. It is used by the antagonists to mobilize populations but
that will continue to happen only so long as the real estate and
related sovereignty questions remain unresolved. These realities shed a
lot of light on the follies of American policy in the Middle-East over
the last 40 years, follies which are best displayed by the present
Administration.
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
23 Nov 2006 02:10:48 PM |
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On 23 Nov 2006 12:00:58 -0800, "Cazador" <coaster132000@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I think d' Souza's main point is more elementary, that atheism is
*associated* with more killing than is religion. I think this must be
admitted to be factual. Accordingly the real issue is where this truth
leads us.
Except that not believing in the god of somebody else's religion is
not a motivator, justifier or root cause for anything.
You have to look at what people are, not what they aren't, in order to
find motivations.
Atheism no more motivates anybody than not watching baseball, not
collecting stamps etc do.
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| User: "Cazador" |
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| Title: Re: Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history |
23 Nov 2006 02:54:11 PM |
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Christopher A.Lee wrote:
On 23 Nov 2006 12:00:58 -0800, "Cazador" <coaster132000@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I think d' Souza's main point is more elementary, that atheism is
*associated* with more killing than is religion. I think this must be
admitted to be factual. Accordingly the real issue is where this truth
leads us.
Except that not believing in the god of somebody else's religion is
not a motivator, justifier or root cause for anything.
You have to look at what people are, not what they aren't, in order to
find motivations.
Atheism no more motivates anybody than not watching baseball, not
collecting stamps etc do.
Militant atheism as a part of a totalitarian ideology has had political
uses. It became a carefully crafted tool with which to destroy or
neutralize traditional moral and ethical systems--which in turn helped
open the floodgates to mass murder and genocide. It did so by relieving
criminal leaderships from organized opposition to blood stained
policies. I'm prepared to demonstrate this to you using the history of
the Soviet Union as the example.
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