Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"SongBookz"
Date:	21 Nov 2006 10:36:54 PM
Object:	Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history

Everyone has endured the accusations of the adherents of the Athiest
religion in these groups, this article is submitted for discussion purposes
since it is topical to those discussions:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20061121/cm_csm/ydsouza
Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history
By Dinesh D'SouzaTue Nov 21, 3:00 AM ET
In recent months, a spate of atheist books have argued that religion
represents, as "End of Faith" author Sam Harris puts it, "the most potent
source of human conflict, past and present."
Columnist Robert Kuttner gives the familiar litany. "The Crusades
slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the
torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did
bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries."
In his bestseller "The God Delusion," Richard Dawkins contends that most of
the world's recent conflicts - in the Middle East, in the Balkans, in
Northern Ireland, in Kashmir, and in Sri Lanka - show the vitality of
religion's murderous impulse.
The problem with this critique is that it exaggerates the crimes attributed
to religion, while ignoring the greater crimes of secular fanaticism. The
best example of religious persecution in America is the Salem witch trials.
How many people were killed in those trials? Thousands? Hundreds? Actually,
fewer than 25. Yet the event still haunts the liberal imagination.
It is strange to witness the passion with which some secular figures rail
against the misdeeds of the Crusaders and Inquisitors more than 500 years
ago. The number sentenced to death by the Spanish Inquisition appears to be
about 10,000. Some historians contend that an additional 100,000 died in
jail due to malnutrition or illness.
These figures are tragic, and of course population levels were much lower at
the time. But even so, they are minuscule compared with the death tolls
produced by the atheist despotisms of the 20th century. In the name of
creating their version of a religion-free utopia, Adolf Hitler, Joseph
Stalin, and Mao Zedong produced the kind of mass slaughter that no
Inquisitor could possibly match. Collectively these atheist tyrants murdered
more than 100 million people.
Moreover, many of the conflicts that are counted as "religious wars" were
not fought over religion. They were mainly fought over rival claims to
territory and power. Can the wars between England and France be called
religious wars because the English were Protestants and the French were
Catholics? Hardly.
The same is true today. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not, at its
core, a religious one. It arises out of a dispute over self-determination
and land. Hamas and the extreme orthodox parties in Israel may advance
theological claims - "God gave us this land" and so forth - but the conflict
would remain essentially the same even without these religious motives.
Ethnic rivalry, not religion, is the source of the tension in Northern
Ireland and the Balkans.
p>Yet today's atheists insist on making religion the culprit. Consider Mr.
Harris's analysis of the conflict in Sri Lanka. "While the motivations of
the Tamil Tigers are not explicitly religious," he informs us, "they are
Hindus who undoubtedly believe many improbable things about the nature of
life and death." In other words, while the Tigers see themselves as
combatants in a secular political struggle, Harris detects a religious
motive because these people happen to be Hindu and surely there must be some
underlying religious craziness that explains their fanaticism.
Harris can go on forever in this vein. Seeking to exonerate secularism and
atheism from the horrors perpetrated in their name, he argues that Stalinism
and Maoism were in reality "little more than a political religion." As for
Nazism, "while the hatred of Jews in Germany expressed itself in a
predominantly secular way, it was a direct inheritance from medieval
Christianity." Indeed, "The holocaust marked the culmination of ... two
thousand years of Christian fulminating against the Jews."
One finds the same inanities in Mr. Dawkins's work. Don't be fooled by this
rhetorical legerdemain. Dawkins and Harris cannot explain why, if Nazism was
directly descended from medieval Christianity, medieval Christianity did not
produce a Hitler. How can a self-proclaimed atheist ideology, advanced by
Hitler as a repudiation of Christianity, be a "culmination" of 2,000 years
of Christianity? Dawkins and Harris are employing a transparent sleight of
hand that holds Christianity responsible for the crimes committed in its
name, while exonerating secularism and atheism for the greater crimes
committed in their name.
Religious fanatics have done things that are impossible to defend, and some
of them, mostly in the Muslim world, are still performing horrors in the
name of their creed. But if religion sometimes disposes people to
self-righteousness and absolutism, it also provides a moral code that
condemns the slaughter of innocents. In particular, the moral teachings of
Jesus provide no support for - indeed they stand as a stern rebuke to - the
historical injustices perpetrated in the name of Christianity.
Atheist hubrisThe crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through
a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of values. Using
the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to displace God
and create a secular utopia here on earth. Of course if some people - the
Jews, the landowners, the unfit, or the handicapped - have to be eliminated
in order to achieve this utopia, this is a price the atheist tyrants and
their apologists have shown themselves quite willing to pay. Thus they
confirm the truth of Fyodor Dostoyevsky's dictum, "If God is not, everything
is permitted."
Whatever the motives for atheist bloodthirstiness, the indisputable fact is
that all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not
managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in
the past few decades.
It's time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that religious belief
has been the greatest source of human conflict and violence. Atheism, not
religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history.
* Dinesh D'Souza is the Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution. His new
book, "The Enemy at Home: The Cultural Left and Its Responsibility for
9/11," will be published in January.
Copyright � 2006 The Christian Science Monitor
.

User: "Doc Smartass"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	28 Nov 2006 07:14:58 PM

"SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> wrote in
news:sqYah.10467$yE6.2897@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com:

"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:od1om2lsk3t5lvqd0q7r6546b5v4elrcc9@4ax.com...

On 28 Nov 2006 01:41:16 -0800, "thomas p." <tonyofbexar@yahoo.dk>
wrote:

Cazador skrev:

Christopher A.Lee wrote:

snip

Vile nonsense. Political ideology combined with militant atheism
motivated the killings of thousands in the Soviet Union. You are
either ignorant of the history or a person for whom it does not
matter.

Since atheism is not a philosophy of any kind, your claim is
nonsense.

What makes you think I am a believer? My point is that atheism is a
belief system as is religion.

If it is a system, name two beliefs that an atheist must accept to be
an atheist.

They must<SLAP>

Shaddap with the word games. You don't get to define us for us.
--
Doc Smartass
"***** repeated to the limit of infinity asymptotically approaches
the odour of roses." -- Relf's Law
.

User: "Lizzardwoman"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	28 Nov 2006 09:50:11 AM

User: "SongBookz"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	28 Nov 2006 02:46:41 PM

"Lizzardwoman" <lizzardwomanRMOVE@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4t345gF1253isU1@mid.individual.net...

Then they would be agnostics.
.

User: "Lizzardwoman"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	28 Nov 2006 04:37:55 PM

"SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> wrote in message
news:Re1bh.16609$9v5.16255@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
|
| "Lizzardwoman" <lizzardwomanRMOVE@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
| news:4t345gF1253isU1@mid.individual.net...
| >
| > "SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> wrote in message
| > news:sqYah.10467$yE6.2897@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
| > |
| > | "Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
| > | news:od1om2lsk3t5lvqd0q7r6546b5v4elrcc9@4ax.com...
| > | > On 28 Nov 2006 01:41:16 -0800, "thomas p." <tonyofbexar@yahoo.dk>
| > | > wrote:
| > | >
| > | >>
| > | >>Cazador skrev:
| > | >>> Christopher A.Lee wrote:
| > | >>snip
| > | >>
| > | >>
| > | >>> Vile nonsense. Political ideology combined with militant atheism
| > | >>> motivated the killings of thousands in the Soviet Union. You are
| > either
| > | >>> ignorant of the history or a person for whom it does not matter.
| > | >>
| > | >>Since atheism is not a philosophy of any kind, your claim is
nonsense.
| > | >>
| > | >>> What makes you think I am a believer? My point is that atheism is
a
| > | >>> belief system as is religion.
| > | >>
| > | >>If it is a system, name two beliefs that an atheist must accept to
be
| > | >>an atheist.
| > | >
| > |
| > | They must accept the doctrine that there "is no God or gods."
| >
| > Why can't they just doubt all religious claims for lack of proof?
| >
|
| Then they would be agnostics.
I worded that poorly. I actively disbelieve because there is no proof.
Therefore I presently have no doubt that there is no proof for any god.
sharon
.

User: "Cazador"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	28 Nov 2006 07:23:20 PM

Lizzardwoman wrote:

"SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> wrote in message
news:Re1bh.16609$9v5.16255@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
|
| "Lizzardwoman" <lizzardwomanRMOVE@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
| news:4t345gF1253isU1@mid.individual.net...
| >
| > "SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> wrote in message
| > news:sqYah.10467$yE6.2897@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
| > |
| > | "Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
| > | news:od1om2lsk3t5lvqd0q7r6546b5v4elrcc9@4ax.com...
| > | > On 28 Nov 2006 01:41:16 -0800, "thomas p." <tonyofbexar@yahoo.dk>
| > | > wrote:
| > | >
| > | >>
| > | >>Cazador skrev:
| > | >>> Christopher A.Lee wrote:
| > | >>snip
| > | >>
| > | >>
| > | >>> Vile nonsense. Political ideology combined with militant atheism
| > | >>> motivated the killings of thousands in the Soviet Union. You are
| > either
| > | >>> ignorant of the history or a person for whom it does not matter.
| > | >>
| > | >>Since atheism is not a philosophy of any kind, your claim is
nonsense.
| > | >>
| > | >>> What makes you think I am a believer? My point is that atheism is
a
| > | >>> belief system as is religion.
| > | >>
| > | >>If it is a system, name two beliefs that an atheist must accept to
be
| > | >>an atheist.
| > | >
| > |
| > | They must accept the doctrine that there "is no God or gods."
| >
| > Why can't they just doubt all religious claims for lack of proof?
| >
|
| Then they would be agnostics.

I worded that poorly. I actively disbelieve because there is no proof.
Therefore I presently have no doubt that there is no proof for any god.

sharon

A lack of evidence leads to a suspension of judgment. One needs
evidence to disprove something.
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they areantitheists	29 Nov 2006 02:24:53 PM

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:46:41 +0000, SongBookz wrote:

"Lizzardwoman" <lizzardwomanRMOVE@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4t345gF1253isU1@mid.individual.net...

Then they would be agnostics.

Wrong. But at least you're consistent.
Huxley, who coined the term "agnostic" said:
"Agnosticism, in fact, is not a creed, but a method....Positively
the principle may be expressed: In matters of the intellect, follow your
reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any
other consideration. And negatively: In matters of the intellect, do
not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated
or demonstrable."
The concepts are orthogonal. One can be both atheist *and* agnostic. In
fact, that's generally the case. Agnosticism is a rejection of "gnosis,"
the claimed "knowledge" obtained, allegedly, by methods other than reason
and evidence.
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
- Seneca the Younger
.

User: "Kate "
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	28 Nov 2006 11:13:02 PM

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:46:41 GMT, "SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net>
wrote:

"Lizzardwoman" <lizzardwomanRMOVE@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4t345gF1253isU1@mid.individual.net...

Then they would be agnostics.

Agnostism and atheism are overlapping. Athiests just don't believe
for whatever reason, Agnostics don't know because there is no
evidence.
Atheism is about belief, agnosticism is about knowledge.
Next time do a little research before you shove in and prove you don't
know what you are talking about.
.

User: "Robibnikoff"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	29 Nov 2006 08:11:41 AM

"Kate " <cobalt@newscene.com> wrote in message
news:459615b1.3638710031@news-west.newscene.com...

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:46:41 GMT, "SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net>
wrote:

"Lizzardwoman" <lizzardwomanRMOVE@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4t345gF1253isU1@mid.individual.net...

Then they would be agnostics.

Agnostism and atheism are overlapping. Athiests just don't believe
for whatever reason, Agnostics don't know because there is no
evidence.

Atheism is about belief, agnosticism is about knowledge.

Next time do a little research before you shove in and prove you don't
know what you are talking about.

Why should he be different from any other theist that barges into
alt.atheism?
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.

User: "Mani Deli"
Title: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	29 Nov 2006 10:26:27 AM

Most are both.
Most theists here are anti-atheist.
.

User: "Kate "
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	29 Nov 2006 11:40:09 PM

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 11:26:27 -0500, Mani Deli <mani@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

Most are both.

Most theists here are anti-atheist.

I think most of them are trolls.
.

User: "Kate "
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	29 Nov 2006 09:01:01 AM

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:11:41 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Kate " <cobalt@newscene.com> wrote in message
news:459615b1.3638710031@news-west.newscene.com...

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:46:41 GMT, "SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net>
wrote:

"Lizzardwoman" <lizzardwomanRMOVE@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4t345gF1253isU1@mid.individual.net...

Then they would be agnostics.

Agnostism and atheism are overlapping. Athiests just don't believe
for whatever reason, Agnostics don't know because there is no
evidence.

Atheism is about belief, agnosticism is about knowledge.

Next time do a little research before you shove in and prove you don't
know what you are talking about.

Why should he be different from any other theist that barges into
alt.atheism?

They ain't all like that, but there sure are a lot of them with major
personality problems. This one has sure shown his lack of mettle.
.

User: "Cazador"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	28 Nov 2006 03:22:45 PM

Lizzardwoman wrote:

Because they don't wan't to be agnostics. Agnostics admit that they
don't know the ultimate cosmic answers. Atheists prefer to take that
leap and to simply *believe,* i.e., to simply assert that there is no
God anywhere, period. Apparently they like the in-your-face
assertiveness of it. They like the shock value of it. It helps them
beat up on believers. At least that's what's going on here.
Of all the traditional positions on the existence of God, simple
negative assertion, i.e., atheism, is the most shallow and mindless.
.

User: "JoelKatz"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	28 Nov 2006 03:29:26 PM

Cazador wrote:

Because they don't wan't to be agnostics. Agnostics admit that they
don't know the ultimate cosmic answers.

On the contrary, the position that one does not know the ultimate
cosmic answers is atheism. Agnosticism is the position that ultimate
cosmic answers *cannot* be known.

Atheists prefer to take that
leap and to simply *believe,* i.e., to simply assert that there is no
God anywhere, period.

Have you met a single atheist that "simply assert"s that there is no
God anywhere, period? I have not.
I have met many atheists, and the very vast majority of them fall into
three categories. The first category is those who claim to have no idea
what anyone means by the word "god". As such, they do not think they
possess a belief in god because a believe in something meaningless is a
contradiction. The second category is those who have at least a vague
idea of what a god is but see no evidence to believe such a thing
exists. Lacking evidence, they refuse to believe. The third category is
those who believe that to the extent they understand the concept god,
it is logically contradictory, akin to a two-dimensional circles with
five sides. As they know nothing contradictory can exist, they believe
that no gods do or can exist.
Which of those groups "simply assert"s that there is no God anywhere,
period?

Apparently they like the in-your-face
assertiveness of it. They like the shock value of it. It helps them
beat up on believers. At least that's what's going on here.

Apparently you are a theist and a mindreader.
Tell me, how is believing something on the basis of faith different
from "simply assert"ing that something is true?

Of all the traditional positions on the existence of God, simple
negative assertion, i.e., atheism, is the most shallow and mindless.

How is demonstrating that the concept of god is logically contradictory
shallow and mindless? Surely simply choosing to believe something
without evidence (what you call "faith") is more shallow and mindless.
DS
.

User: "SongBookz"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	28 Nov 2006 08:16:52 PM

"JoelKatz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote in message
news:1164749366.693017.260970@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Cazador wrote:

Because they don't wan't to be agnostics. Agnostics admit that they
don't know the ultimate cosmic answers.

On the contrary, the position that one does not know the ultimate
cosmic answers is atheism. Agnosticism is the position that ultimate
cosmic answers *cannot* be known.

Atheists prefer to take that
leap and to simply *believe,* i.e., to simply assert that there is no
God anywhere, period.

Have you met a single atheist that "simply assert"s that there is no
God anywhere, period? I have not.

I have met many atheists, and the very vast majority of them fall into
three categories. The first category is those who claim to have no idea
what anyone means by the word "god". As such, they do not think they
possess a belief in god because a believe in something meaningless is a
contradiction. The second category is those who have at least a vague
idea of what a god is but see no evidence to believe such a thing
exists. Lacking evidence, they refuse to believe. The third category is
those who believe that to the extent they understand the concept god,
it is logically contradictory, akin to a two-dimensional circles with
five sides. As they know nothing contradictory can exist, they believe
that no gods do or can exist.

In these groups, I have yet to meet any of the forms of atheist above, all I
have run across are the antitheists who work in opposition to theism - to
them, atheism is not a "non-event," nor an intellectual position, but an
excuse to "beat up" on theists. Their position is propagandized as being
atheist, but their actions are actually to act in opposition to gods and
theists. Essentially, they are anti-evangelists promoting and proselytizing
an antitheist religion.
--
Terrell D Lewis
http://www.songbookz.com
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they areantitheists	29 Nov 2006 02:39:32 PM

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 02:16:52 +0000, SongBookz wrote:

"JoelKatz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote in message
news:1164749366.693017.260970@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Cazador wrote:

Because they don't wan't to be agnostics. Agnostics admit that they
don't know the ultimate cosmic answers.

On the contrary, the position that one does not know the ultimate
cosmic answers is atheism. Agnosticism is the position that ultimate
cosmic answers *cannot* be known.

Atheists prefer to take that
leap and to simply *believe,* i.e., to simply assert that there is no
God anywhere, period.

Have you met a single atheist that "simply assert"s that there is no
God anywhere, period? I have not.

I have met many atheists, and the very vast majority of them fall into
three categories. The first category is those who claim to have no idea
what anyone means by the word "god". As such, they do not think they
possess a belief in god because a believe in something meaningless is a
contradiction. The second category is those who have at least a vague
idea of what a god is but see no evidence to believe such a thing
exists. Lacking evidence, they refuse to believe. The third category is
those who believe that to the extent they understand the concept god,
it is logically contradictory, akin to a two-dimensional circles with
five sides. As they know nothing contradictory can exist, they believe
that no gods do or can exist.

The simpler explanation, you dolt, is people post on Usenet.
Sheesh.
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
- Seneca the Younger
.

User: "Cazador"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	29 Nov 2006 04:54:56 PM

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
- Seneca the Younger

Yet Seneca displayed a "monotheistic aversion" to the popular
superstitions of his time. (Robertson, "A Short History of Free
Thought" 1957) Context helps.
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they areantitheists	29 Nov 2006 06:18:59 PM

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:54:56 -0800, Cazador wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
- Seneca the Younger

Yet Seneca displayed a "monotheistic aversion" to the popular
superstitions of his time. (Robertson, "A Short History of Free
Thought" 1957) Context helps.

So?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
If their omnipotent, omniscient (so they say) god wants me to
believe in him, then he should know what would prove his
existence to me. He hasn't done so yet, so there is no reason
to believe in him.
-Woden
.

User: "Cazador"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	29 Nov 2006 08:24:06 PM

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:54:56 -0800, Cazador wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
- Seneca the Younger

Yet Seneca displayed a "monotheistic aversion" to the popular
superstitions of his time. (Robertson, "A Short History of Free
Thought" 1957) Context helps.

So?

I shouldn't have to answer THAT.

--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
If their omnipotent, omniscient (so they say) god wants me to
believe in him, then he should know what would prove his
existence to me. He hasn't done so yet, so there is no reason
to believe in him.
-Woden

User: "yahu"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	01 Dec 2006 06:39:01 AM

On 29 Nov 2006 18:24:06 -0800, Cazador wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:54:56 -0800, Cazador wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
- Seneca the Younger

Yet Seneca displayed a "monotheistic aversion" to the popular
superstitions of his time. (Robertson, "A Short History of Free
Thought" 1957) Context helps.

So?

I shouldn't have to answer THAT.

Why not, its you appeall to authority, but then, you never bother too
support your claims.
BTW, Msgr. Bilbo's question stands. To put it another way, whjat the hell
does that have to do with the price of nooky in a Hong Kong whorehouse the
night before the fleet is due in?
My apologies Mr. Bilbo,
yahu
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they areantitheists	01 Dec 2006 07:12:00 AM

On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 06:39:01 -0600, yahu wrote:

On 29 Nov 2006 18:24:06 -0800, Cazador wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:54:56 -0800, Cazador wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
- Seneca the Younger

Yet Seneca displayed a "monotheistic aversion" to the popular
superstitions of his time. (Robertson, "A Short History of Free
Thought" 1957) Context helps.

So?

I shouldn't have to answer THAT.

In a, ahem, nutshell.

My apologies Mr. Bilbo,

None needed.
Myself, I'm amused, if mildly, he's taken to arguing with my sigs...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"...otherwise, we're looking at the potential of this kind
of world:.... a world in which oil reserves are controlled
by radicals in order to extract blackmail from the West..."
-George Bush
Wait... oil reserves?
.

User: "Cazador"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	01 Dec 2006 11:51:18 AM

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 06:39:01 -0600, yahu wrote:

On 29 Nov 2006 18:24:06 -0800, Cazador wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:54:56 -0800, Cazador wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
- Seneca the Younger

Yet Seneca displayed a "monotheistic aversion" to the popular
superstitions of his time. (Robertson, "A Short History of Free
Thought" 1957) Context helps.

So?

I shouldn't have to answer THAT.

In a, ahem, nutshell.

My apologies Mr. Bilbo,

None needed.

Myself, I'm amused, if mildly, he's taken to arguing with my sigs...

Me too. Thanks for them. They tend to be either competent or telling,
like the one below.

--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"...otherwise, we're looking at the potential of this kind
of world:.... a world in which oil reserves are controlled
by radicals in order to extract blackmail from the West..."
-George Bush

Wait... oil reserves?

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they areantitheists	01 Dec 2006 05:40:21 PM

On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 09:51:18 -0800, Cazador wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 06:39:01 -0600, yahu wrote:

On 29 Nov 2006 18:24:06 -0800, Cazador wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:54:56 -0800, Cazador wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
- Seneca the Younger

Yet Seneca displayed a "monotheistic aversion" to the popular
superstitions of his time. (Robertson, "A Short History of Free
Thought" 1957) Context helps.

So?

I shouldn't have to answer THAT.

In a, ahem, nutshell.

My apologies Mr. Bilbo,

None needed.

Myself, I'm amused, if mildly, he's taken to arguing with my sigs...

Me too. Thanks for them. They tend to be either competent or telling,
like the one below.

Um... what?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned
and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and
the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong
its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until
all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic
is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety than ever
before, even in the midst of war. God grant that my suspicions
may prove groundless." -Abraham Lincoln
.

User: "Cazador"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	01 Dec 2006 11:47:44 AM

yahu wrote:

On 29 Nov 2006 18:24:06 -0800, Cazador wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:54:56 -0800, Cazador wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
- Seneca the Younger

Yet Seneca displayed a "monotheistic aversion" to the popular
superstitions of his time. (Robertson, "A Short History of Free
Thought" 1957) Context helps.

So?

I shouldn't have to answer THAT.

The only question up there is "So?"

My apologies Mr. Bilbo,

Apologies for what? Incomprehensibility?

yahu

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they areantitheists	30 Nov 2006 09:10:05 AM

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:24:06 -0800, Cazador wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:54:56 -0800, Cazador wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
- Seneca the Younger

Yet Seneca displayed a "monotheistic aversion" to the popular
superstitions of his time. (Robertson, "A Short History of Free
Thought" 1957) Context helps.

So?

I shouldn't have to answer THAT.

Sheesh.
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"...otherwise, we're looking at the potential of this kind
of world:.... a world in which oil reserves are controlled
by radicals in order to extract blackmail from the West..."
-George Bush
Wait... oil reserves?
.

User: "JoelKatz"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	29 Nov 2006 07:30:37 PM

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

The simpler explanation, you dolt, is people post on Usenet.

Sheesh.

Of course, you won't find the moderates spending time trying to
convince you of their position. And you will find people taking
exaggerated views of their own positions because they may be easier to
defend.
For example, if someone argued that abortion was wrong because the
child was a living human being, how can they say that it's okay to kill
that person to save the mother? How can they weigh one life against the
other? They may really know that it's obviously okay to have an
abortion in that case, but if they can't explain why and know that they
will get picked to pieces on that point, do you think they're going to
admit it?
Atheists posts on USENET to laugh at how stupid theists are. It's the
same thing you would do if you found an adult who seemed to genuinely
believe that the Tooth Fairy was an actual fairy.
DS
.

User: "Christopher A.Lee"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	29 Nov 2006 07:57:01 PM

On 29 Nov 2006 17:30:37 -0800, "JoelKatz" <davids@webmaster.com>
wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

The simpler explanation, you dolt, is people post on Usenet.

Sheesh.

Of course, you won't find the moderates spending time trying to
convince you of their position. And you will find people taking
exaggerated views of their own positions because they may be easier to
defend.

For example, if someone argued that abortion was wrong because the
child was a living human being, how can they say that it's okay to kill
that person to save the mother? How can they weigh one life against the
other? They may really know that it's obviously okay to have an
abortion in that case, but if they can't explain why and know that they
will get picked to pieces on that point, do you think they're going to
admit it?

Atheists posts on USENET to laugh at how stupid theists are. It's the
same thing you would do if you found an adult who seemed to genuinely
believe that the Tooth Fairy was an actual fairy.

Maybe some do. I'm here to discuss the issues and problems of living
in an increasingly polarised and increasingly fundamentalist society.
I never felt the need to get together with other atheists before I
emigrated to the USA.

User: "Cazador"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	29 Nov 2006 10:27:32 PM

Christopher A.Lee wrote:

Atheists posts on USENET to laugh at how stupid theists are.

Clip
That's frank. I too think that attitude motivates the bulk of the
attacks on religionists.

Maybe some do. I'm here to discuss the issues and problems of living
in an increasingly polarised and increasingly fundamentalist society.

Issues and problems on which we might have some common ground.

I never felt the need to get together with other atheists before I
emigrated to the USA.

That can't lead anywhere positive. They're much too marginal and
quirky. The political arena is where it's at. Atheists are powerless
there. The first thing which has to be done is to deflate the political
correctness which paralyses our political class, not just on the
question of the political influence of the arch-conservative Christian
right but also on the influence of foreign powers on the conduct of
American foreign policy.
.

User: "Michelle Malkin"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	30 Nov 2006 01:24:43 AM

"Cazador" <coaster132000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1164860852.892946.270500@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...

Christopher A.Lee wrote:

Atheists posts on USENET to laugh at how stupid theists are.

Clip

That's frank. I too think that attitude motivates the bulk of the
attacks on religionists.

Maybe some do. I'm here to discuss the issues and problems of living
in an increasingly polarised and increasingly fundamentalist society.

Issues and problems on which we might have some common ground.

I never felt the need to get together with other atheists before I
emigrated to the USA.

Considering that there are at least 10 million,
and probably a lot more, atheists, agnostics
and free thinkers in the US, I wouldn't say
that we are powerless politically. Judging
from this newsgroup and atheists I know
personally from the Philadelphia Atheist
Meetup, I'd say that most atheists are
Democrats, followed by a lot of Libertarians,
Independents and some Republicans. In the
last election, I'd guess that most of the
Libertarians and Republicans held their noses
and voted Democratic. Some probably didn't
vote at all. Once thing is certain, most atheists,
agnostics and Freethinkers do vote.
By the way, there are many atheist organizations
all over the world, including the US, and we are
quite capable of working together when
necessary. Never think of us as being marginal,
just because many of us are individualistic. That
would be a MAJOR mistake on your part.
.

User: "Cazador"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	30 Nov 2006 12:06:10 PM

Michelle Malkin wrote:

"Cazador" <coaster132000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1164860852.892946.270500@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...

Christopher A.Lee wrote:

Atheists posts on USENET to laugh at how stupid theists are.

Clip

That's frank. I too think that attitude motivates the bulk of the
attacks on religionists.

Maybe some do. I'm here to discuss the issues and problems of living
in an increasingly polarised and increasingly fundamentalist society.

Issues and problems on which we might have some common ground.

I never felt the need to get together with other atheists before I
emigrated to the USA.

Considering that there are at least 10 million,
and probably a lot more, atheists, agnostics
and free thinkers in the US, I wouldn't say
that we are powerless politically. Judging
from this newsgroup and atheists I know
personally from the Philadelphia Atheist
Meetup, I'd say that most atheists are
Democrats, followed by a lot of Libertarians,
Independents and some Republicans. In the
last election, I'd guess that most of the
Libertarians and Republicans held their noses
and voted Democratic. Some probably didn't
vote at all. Once thing is certain, most atheists,
agnostics and Freethinkers do vote.

By the way, there are many atheist organizations
all over the world, including the US, and we are
quite capable of working together when
necessary. Never think of us as being marginal,
just because many of us are individualistic. That
would be a MAJOR mistake on your part.

Well taken. I shouldn't judge the whole by a few of its parts. Tell me,
please, what impells atheists to band together politically? I've really
never thought of them as a political movement, just as a rather cranky
form of individualist eccentricity. What are the particular political
goals?
10,000,000 is a lot of votes. Can you guys really deliver a sizable
bloc? This country is rapidly going to Hell in a hand basket. I
personally think we're in the midst of the greatest crisis since WWII.
.

User: "SongBookz"
Title: Re: most "atheists" who post in here are not atheists they are antitheists	29 Nov 2006 10:32:41 PM

"Cazador" <coaster132000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1164860852.892946.270500@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...

Christopher A.Lee wrote:

Atheists posts on USENET to laugh at how stupid theists are.

Clip

That's frank. I too think that attitude motivates the bulk of the
attacks on religionists.

Maybe some do. I'm here to discuss the issues and problems of living
in an increasingly polarised and increasingly fundamentalist society.

Issues and problems on which we might have some common ground.

I never felt the need to get together with other atheists before I
emigrated to the USA.

The problem with atheism and politics is that, to the American mind, atheism
is synonymous with Communism. I think there will also be a backlash against
Christian conservativism too which, hopefully, will lead us back to center.
Terrell
.

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