| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Raven" |
| Date: |
05 Oct 2003 10:11:43 PM |
| Object: |
Atheist Arnested for Barking |
After seeing the head lines in todays paper and reading about a homeless
atheist that got arrested for barking out loud at a motorest who did not
stop
and allow him the use of the cross walk i had to readjust my thinking.
The more I engage our concept of consciousness, the more I begin to
doubt it's existence. I know that I think, and I would describe myself
as conscious. I would surely describe an amoeba as not conscious. But
what of a human with Down's Syndrome? Is consciousness a function of
intelligence? On the other hand what is the side effect of
consciousness that is knowable from evidence? Is a dog conscious? Is a
dolphin or a chimpanzee? What constitutes consciousness?
The closer and harder I look, the harder it is to find the line, between
that which is conscious and that which is not, and at that point I begin
to suspect that consciousness *may* be a subjective definition. I
perceive myself, I perceive boundaries between me and you, this and
that, but turning a perception into an axiom seems to be an awful large
leap. Piekoff's objection to God is that consciousness can't proceed
existence. I whole-heartedly agree. However, objectivism doesn't
simply reject this dualistic construction, it seems to instead accept
the converse that existence has spawned this separate thing called
consciousness. In Piekoff's discussion I keep hearing this implication
that consciousness is apart from the order of the universe. This
concept, a duality of material world and consciousness, seems to
contradict the axiom of the primacy of existence.
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| User: "Nvok" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Arnested for Barking |
06 Oct 2003 12:59:30 PM |
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<snipped>
Here is a block of empty space. Use it to break up your unnecessarily long post.
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| User: "theoneflasehaddock" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Arnested for Barking |
06 Oct 2003 03:25:35 PM |
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(Raven) wrote in message news:<DPG24TN737899.9664699074@bogg.dynu.com>...
After seeing the head lines in todays paper and reading about a homeless
atheist that got arrested for barking out loud at a motorest who did not
stop
and allow him the use of the cross walk i had to readjust my thinking.
The more I engage our concept of consciousness, the more I begin to
doubt it's existence. I know that I think, and I would describe myself
as conscious. I would surely describe an amoeba as not conscious. But
what of a human with Down's Syndrome? Is consciousness a function of
intelligence? On the other hand what is the side effect of
consciousness that is knowable from evidence? Is a dog conscious? Is a
dolphin or a chimpanzee? What constitutes consciousness?
The closer and harder I look, the harder it is to find the line, between
that which is conscious and that which is not, and at that point I begin
to suspect that consciousness *may* be a subjective definition. I
perceive myself, I perceive boundaries between me and you, this and
that, but turning a perception into an axiom seems to be an awful large
leap. Piekoff's objection to God is that consciousness can't proceed
existence. I whole-heartedly agree. However, objectivism doesn't
simply reject this dualistic construction, it seems to instead accept
the converse that existence has spawned this separate thing called
consciousness. In Piekoff's discussion I keep hearing this implication
that consciousness is apart from the order of the universe. This
concept, a duality of material world and consciousness, seems to
contradict the axiom of the primacy of existence.
How interesting that you have an AOL address, and yet your post came
throught the dizum.com remailer. Interesting, indeed, little Raven.
-
theoneflasehaddock
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| User: "Goddess of Groundhogs" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Arnested for Barking |
06 Oct 2003 08:01:02 PM |
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theoneflasehaddock poked his/her head out of his hole and screamed
news:aa0c605c.0310061225.7cc9da88@posting.google.com: at the world.
raven101@aol.com (Raven) wrote in message
news:<DPG24TN737899.9664699074@bogg.dynu.com>...
After seeing the head lines in todays paper and reading about a
homeless atheist that got arrested for barking out loud at a
motorest who did not stop
and allow him the use of the cross walk i had to readjust my
thinking. The more I engage our concept of consciousness, the
more I begin to doubt it's existence. I know that I think, and
I
would describe myself as conscious. I would surely describe an
amoeba as not conscious. But what of a human with Down's
Syndrome? Is consciousness a function of intelligence? On the
other hand what is the side effect of consciousness that is
knowable from evidence? Is a dog conscious? Is a dolphin or a
chimpanzee? What constitutes consciousness? The closer and
harder I look, the harder it is to find the line, between that
which is conscious and that which is not, and at that point I
begin to suspect that consciousness *may* be a subjective
definition. I perceive myself, I perceive boundaries between me
and you, this and that, but turning a perception into an axiom
seems to be an awful large leap. Piekoff's objection to God is
that consciousness can't proceed existence. I whole-heartedly
agree. However, objectivism doesn't simply reject this
dualistic
construction, it seems to instead accept the converse that
existence has spawned this separate thing called consciousness.
In Piekoff's discussion I keep hearing this implication that
consciousness is apart from the order of the universe. This
concept, a duality of material world and consciousness, seems to
contradict the axiom of the primacy of existence.
How interesting that you have an AOL address, and yet your post
came throught the dizum.com remailer. Interesting, indeed, little
Raven.
Yea, that caught my attention. Fer real.
If you are who I think you are, Raven, PLEASE email me.
I've been trying to get in touch with you for months.
Look in my header for Realmail.
If, on the other hand, your that fuckwit Zen, ***** off.
-blu*where the ***** did my sig go again*juju-
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| User: "Sean C" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Arnested for Barking |
06 Oct 2003 01:16:20 AM |
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In article <DPG24TN737899.9664699074@bogg.dynu.com>, Raven
<raven101@aol.com> wrote:
After seeing the head lines in todays paper and reading about a homeless
atheist that got arrested for barking out loud at a motorest who did not
stop
and allow him the use of the cross walk i had to readjust my thinking.
The more I engage our concept of consciousness, the more I begin to
doubt it's existence. I know that I think, and I would describe myself
as conscious. I would surely describe an amoeba as not conscious. But
what of a human with Down's Syndrome? Is consciousness a function of
intelligence? On the other hand what is the side effect of
consciousness that is knowable from evidence? Is a dog conscious? Is a
dolphin or a chimpanzee? What constitutes consciousness?
Has a dog Buddha nature?
Sean C
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Arnested for Barking |
09 Oct 2003 07:45:47 AM |
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On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 02:16:20 -0400 in alt.atheism, Sean C (Sean C
<redhawk@hvc.rr.com>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
In article <DPG24TN737899.9664699074@bogg.dynu.com>, Raven
<raven101@aol.com> wrote:
After seeing the head lines in todays paper and reading about a homeless
atheist that got arrested for barking out loud at a motorest who did not
stop
and allow him the use of the cross walk i had to readjust my thinking.
The more I engage our concept of consciousness, the more I begin to
doubt it's existence. I know that I think, and I would describe myself
as conscious. I would surely describe an amoeba as not conscious. But
what of a human with Down's Syndrome? Is consciousness a function of
intelligence? On the other hand what is the side effect of
consciousness that is knowable from evidence? Is a dog conscious? Is a
dolphin or a chimpanzee? What constitutes consciousness?
Has a dog Buddha nature?
"Whoof".
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
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| User: "Nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Arnested for Barking |
06 Oct 2003 10:23:27 AM |
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In <061020030216201946%redhawk@hvc.rr.com> Sean C wrote:
In article <DPG24TN737899.9664699074@bogg.dynu.com>, Raven
<raven101@aol.com> wrote:
After seeing the head lines in todays paper and reading about a
homeless atheist that got arrested for barking out loud at a motorest
who did not stop and allow him the use of the cross walk i had to
readjust my thinking. The more I engage our concept of consciousness,
the more I begin to doubt it's existence. I know that I think, and
I would describe myself as conscious. I would surely describe an
amoeba as not conscious. But what of a human with Down's Syndrome?
Is consciousness a function of intelligence? On the other hand what
is the side effect of consciousness that is knowable from evidence?
Is a dog conscious? Is a dolphin or a chimpanzee? What constitutes
consciousness?
Has a dog Buddha nature?
Sean C
Buddha had a dog. It had a lotus flower tail. Don't ask me why.
Nevermore
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the
World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers -
Total Privacy via Encryption =---
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Arnested for Barking |
06 Oct 2003 02:08:21 AM |
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On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 02:16:20 -0400, Sean C <redhawk@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
In article <DPG24TN737899.9664699074@bogg.dynu.com>, Raven
<raven101@aol.com> wrote:
After seeing the head lines in todays paper and reading about a homeless
atheist that got arrested for barking out loud at a motorest who did not
stop
and allow him the use of the cross walk i had to readjust my thinking.
The more I engage our concept of consciousness, the more I begin to
doubt it's existence. I know that I think, and I would describe myself
as conscious. I would surely describe an amoeba as not conscious. But
what of a human with Down's Syndrome? Is consciousness a function of
intelligence? On the other hand what is the side effect of
consciousness that is knowable from evidence? Is a dog conscious? Is a
dolphin or a chimpanzee? What constitutes consciousness?
Has a dog Buddha nature?
Mu.
Has a cow Buddha nature?
Moo.
;-)
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Arnested for Barking |
06 Oct 2003 05:34:13 PM |
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On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 03:08:21 -0400, raven1
<psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 02:16:20 -0400, Sean C <redhawk@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
In article <DPG24TN737899.9664699074@bogg.dynu.com>, Raven
<raven101@aol.com> wrote:
After seeing the head lines in todays paper and reading about a homeless
atheist that got arrested for barking out loud at a motorest who did not
stop
and allow him the use of the cross walk i had to readjust my thinking.
The more I engage our concept of consciousness, the more I begin to
doubt it's existence. I know that I think, and I would describe myself
as conscious. I would surely describe an amoeba as not conscious. But
what of a human with Down's Syndrome? Is consciousness a function of
intelligence? On the other hand what is the side effect of
consciousness that is knowable from evidence? Is a dog conscious? Is a
dolphin or a chimpanzee? What constitutes consciousness?
Has a dog Buddha nature?
Mu.
Has a cow Buddha nature?
Moo.
;-)
Has a cat Buddha nature?
Mew.
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| User: "theoneflasehaddock" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Arnested for Barking |
06 Oct 2003 03:24:36 PM |
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raven1 <psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote in message news:<r452ov4606ttbgg7ljctnt5da1ibhul3pu@4ax.com>...
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 02:16:20 -0400, Sean C <redhawk@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
In article <DPG24TN737899.9664699074@bogg.dynu.com>, Raven
<raven101@aol.com> wrote:
After seeing the head lines in todays paper and reading about a homeless
atheist that got arrested for barking out loud at a motorest who did not
stop
and allow him the use of the cross walk i had to readjust my thinking.
The more I engage our concept of consciousness, the more I begin to
doubt it's existence. I know that I think, and I would describe myself
as conscious. I would surely describe an amoeba as not conscious. But
what of a human with Down's Syndrome? Is consciousness a function of
intelligence? On the other hand what is the side effect of
consciousness that is knowable from evidence? Is a dog conscious? Is a
dolphin or a chimpanzee? What constitutes consciousness?
Has a dog Buddha nature?
Mu.
Has a cow Buddha nature?
Moo.
;-)
Has a raven Buddha nature?
Has a troll Buddha nature?
Has a remailer twat Buddha nature?
I don't know, but the original poster had all three.
-
theoneflasehaddock
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| User: "Mekkala" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Arnested for Barking |
06 Oct 2003 03:12:41 PM |
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On 05 Oct 2003, (Raven) screwed up his face, groaned,
pushed hard, and farted out the following message in
news:DPG24TN737899.9664699074@bogg.dynu.com:
It's very simple. Consciousness, IMHO, is the state of possessing
stored, retrievable information regarding yourself and your existence.
Thus, an amoeba, not having any type of information storage and
retrieval functions in its physical makeup, is not conscious.
I, on the other hand, not only have a brain that can both store and
retrieve information about myself and my existence, but have just
checked and discovered that such information is indeed stored in my
brain, and thus know myself to be conscious.
You can easily check consciousness in an entity with the ability to
communicate by asking it questions about itself and its existence. You
cannot check whether a dog is conscious, since you can't communicate
with it on that level -- but its behavior seems to indicate that it is.
Of course, all that is subject to accepting my defition of
consciousness. However, you have not defined it, and therefore until
you do I will continue to conduct this discussion according to my own
definition.
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly
realized I was talking to myself!"
--Peter O'Toole.
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| User: "Nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Arnested for Barking |
06 Oct 2003 03:27:44 PM |
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Consciousness, IMHO, is wasted on people who put fart jokes in their
reply line headers; however, amoeba have always struck me as rather
focused and elegant.
Nevermore
In <Xns940C9C563DB56Mekkala@199.45.49.11> Mekkala wrote:
On 05 Oct 2003, (Raven) screwed up his face, groaned,
pushed hard, and farted out the following message in
news:DPG24TN737899.9664699074@bogg.dynu.com:
It's very simple. Consciousness, IMHO, is the state of possessing
stored, retrievable information regarding yourself and your existence.
Thus, an amoeba, not having any type of information storage and
retrieval functions in its physical makeup, is not conscious.
I, on the other hand, not only have a brain that can both store and
retrieve information about myself and my existence, but have just
checked and discovered that such information is indeed stored in my
brain, and thus know myself to be conscious.
You can easily check consciousness in an entity with the ability to
communicate by asking it questions about itself and its existence.
You cannot check whether a dog is conscious, since you can't
communicate with it on that level -- but its behavior seems to
indicate that it is.
Of course, all that is subject to accepting my defition of
consciousness. However, you have not defined it, and therefore until
you do I will continue to conduct this discussion according to my own
definition.
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| User: "Mekkala" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Arnested for Barking |
06 Oct 2003 03:58:09 PM |
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On 06 Oct 2003, Nevermore <burned@thestake.net> screwed up his face,
groaned, pushed hard, and farted out the following message in
news:20031006162739908-0400@news.valley.net:
Consciousness, IMHO, is wasted on people who put fart jokes in their
reply line headers; however, amoeba have always struck me as rather
focused and elegant.
*sigh*
People who are so uptight that they get their panties all in a bunch
over a silly reply header are in for a lot of grief in life.
(Look, I used it again!)
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly
realized I was talking to myself!"
--Peter O'Toole.
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| User: "Nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Arnested for Barking |
06 Oct 2003 04:49:26 PM |
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<sigh> I see the amoeba are still in the lead.
In <Xns940CA40C0B824Mekkala@199.45.49.11> Mekkala wrote:
On 06 Oct 2003, Nevermore <burned@thestake.net> screwed up his face,
groaned, pushed hard, and farted out the following message in
news:20031006162739908-0400@news.valley.net:
Consciousness, IMHO, is wasted on people who put fart jokes in their
reply line headers; however, amoeba have always struck me as rather
focused and elegant.
*sigh*
People who are so uptight that they get their panties all in a bunch
over a silly reply header are in for a lot of grief in life.
(Look, I used it again!)
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| User: "Mekkala" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Arnested for Barking |
07 Oct 2003 10:14:49 AM |
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On 06 Oct 2003, Nevermore <burned@thestake.net> screwed up his face,
groaned, pushed hard, and farted out the following message in
news:20031006174921848-0400@news.valley.net:
<sigh> I see the amoeba are still in the lead.
My God [sic], man! Does it really cause you so much agony to see the
word 'fart'?! I'm so sorry (fart)... Oh! Christ man, I said it ag-
(fart) Oh crap! It just... slipped (fart, fart) Oh God, slipped out
again! Ok, ok, I think I have it under contro- (FART! FARTFARTFART!)
Oh my God this is simply horrible! What shall I do?!
(Translation: lighten the ***** up)
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly
realized I was talking to myself!"
--Peter O'Toole.
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| User: "Relayer" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Arnested for Barking |
06 Oct 2003 12:34:34 AM |
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Raven wrote:
After seeing the head lines in todays paper and reading about a homeless
atheist that got arrested for barking out loud at a motorest who did not
stop
and allow him the use of the cross walk i had to readjust my thinking.
What on earth does his atheism have to do with that? And what does this
have to do with the rest of this post?
The more I engage our concept of consciousness, the more I begin to
doubt it's existence.
Speak for yourself. Oh, you were.
I know that I think, and I would describe myself
as conscious. I would surely describe an amoeba as not conscious.
Why? Was that just a reflex appraisal, or have you put some study into
amoeba?
But
what of a human with Down's Syndrome?
What of them? Are you implying that they are not actually conscious?
Is consciousness a function of
intelligence?
Insofaf as intelligence is the 'faculty of thought an reason' (Anerican
Heritage Dictionary) then yes. I go more ito defining consciousness below.
It is possible to be fully conscious and aware, and yet not to judge or
react. It is a great mental exercise, by the way.
On the other hand what is the side effect of
consciousness that is knowable from evidence?
There's the rub. From Websters:
\Con"scious*ness\, n. 1. The state of being conscious; knowledge of
one's own existence, condition, sensations, mental operations, acts, etc.
So... self awareness. I know of my own, I can only take that of others
as a matter of (sometimes very tenuous)faith. Regardless, it is more
convenient to function assuming the consciousness of others; not doing
so may lead one down the path of the psychopath, and that can lead to
difficulties I'd rather avoid.
Is a dog conscious?
At least as much as you.
Is a
dolphin or a chimpanzee?
Whyever not?
What constitutes consciousness?
See above. Self awareness.
The closer and harder I look, the harder it is to find the line, between
that which is conscious and that which is not, and at that point I begin
to suspect that consciousness *may* be a subjective definition.
IMHO you are only likely to get a sense of the consciousness of
something that you can interact with on some sort of intelligent level.
That rules out half of usenet.
I
perceive myself, I perceive boundaries between me and you, this and
that, but turning a perception into an axiom seems to be an awful large
leap. Piekoff's objection to God is that consciousness can't proceed
existence. I whole-heartedly agree.
You have to exist to be aware of your own existence. So... yep.
However, objectivism doesn't
simply reject this dualistic construction, it seems to instead accept
the converse that existence has spawned this separate thing called
consciousness. In Piekoff's discussion I keep hearing this implication
that consciousness is apart from the order of the universe. This
concept, a duality of material world and consciousness, seems to
contradict the axiom of the primacy of existence.
I don't see that.
R.
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