| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"JPG" |
| Date: |
21 Oct 2004 06:56:17 AM |
| Object: |
Atheist fiction recommendations. |
I have just read "Pavane", by Keith Roberts. Written in the late 60s it is an
alternative history diverging when Queen Elizabeth I is assassinated, bringing
England under the control of the Catholic Church.
Brought up to date it describes how the industrial revolution never happened and
England in the 1960s uses steam locomotives to move goods around, communications
is by giant semaphore stations, and Rome controls all, with the inquisition
still happening.
I quite enjoyed this book as ultimately the forces of freedom (of thought) won.
Are there any others people can recommend that would be a good choice for an
atheist/freethinker?
JPG
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| User: "Marvin" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist fiction recommendations. |
21 Oct 2004 08:50:09 AM |
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"JPG" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:ef8fn057k58dmo8eqhu1r5s1020fj2v4l4@4ax.com...
I have just read "Pavane", by Keith Roberts. Written in the
late 60s it is an
alternative history diverging when Queen Elizabeth I is
assassinated, bringing
England under the control of the Catholic Church.
Brought up to date it describes how the industrial
revolution never happened and
England in the 1960s uses steam locomotives to move goods
around, communications
is by giant semaphore stations, and Rome controls all, with
the inquisition
still happening.
I quite enjoyed this book as ultimately the forces of
freedom (of thought) won.
Are there any others people can recommend that would be a
good choice for an
atheist/freethinker?
JPG
I'm not sure whether it could rightfully be called atheist
fiction, but I think you might appreciate Octavia E. Butler's
_Parable of the Talents_ and _Parable of the Sower_. The
setting is a mid twenty-first century US dealing with the
aftermath of the total distruction of social programs and
worker protections as well as the excesses of a dominant
fundamentalist Christian movement that has reduced the
government to its puppet. My son recommended the books to me,
and he thought I might be turned off by Butler's premise that
the only thing powerful enough to get humanity back on track
is religion, but I was intrigued by the nature of the religion
her protagonist constructs. Feel free to correct me, but I
believe it could fairly be considered a humanist religion,
though the details of the belief system are a bit sketchy.
--
Marvin
To reply, burn off fog.
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist fiction recommendations. |
21 Oct 2004 09:53:42 AM |
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Marvin wrote:
"JPG" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:ef8fn057k58dmo8eqhu1r5s1020fj2v4l4@4ax.com...
I have just read "Pavane", by Keith Roberts. Written in the
late 60s it is an
alternative history diverging when Queen Elizabeth I is
assassinated, bringing
England under the control of the Catholic Church.
Brought up to date it describes how the industrial
revolution never happened and
England in the 1960s uses steam locomotives to move goods
around, communications
is by giant semaphore stations, and Rome controls all, with
the inquisition
still happening.
I quite enjoyed this book as ultimately the forces of
freedom (of thought) won.
Are there any others people can recommend that would be a
good choice for an
atheist/freethinker?
JPG
I'm not sure whether it could rightfully be called atheist
fiction, but I think you might appreciate Octavia E. Butler's
_Parable of the Talents_ and _Parable of the Sower_. The
setting is a mid twenty-first century US dealing with the
aftermath of the total distruction of social programs and
worker protections as well as the excesses of a dominant
fundamentalist Christian movement that has reduced the
government to its puppet. My son recommended the books to me,
and he thought I might be turned off by Butler's premise that
the only thing powerful enough to get humanity back on track
is religion, but I was intrigued by the nature of the religion
her protagonist constructs. Feel free to correct me, but I
believe it could fairly be considered a humanist religion,
though the details of the belief system are a bit sketchy.
Octavia Butler is a great writer, and her two Earthseed books (the ones
you mentioned) are very thought provoking. I enjoyed them a lot.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"The accumulation of all power, legislative,
executive, and judicial in the same hands...
may justly be pronounced the very definition
of tyranny."
- James Madison, _The Federalist_, #47
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist fiction recommendations. |
21 Oct 2004 09:28:04 AM |
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"JPG" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:ef8fn057k58dmo8eqhu1r5s1020fj2v4l4@4ax.com...
I have just read "Pavane", by Keith Roberts. Written in the late 60s it
is an
alternative history diverging when Queen Elizabeth I is assassinated,
bringing
England under the control of the Catholic Church.
Brought up to date it describes how the industrial revolution never
happened and
England in the 1960s uses steam locomotives to move goods around,
communications
is by giant semaphore stations, and Rome controls all, with the
inquisition
still happening.
I quite enjoyed this book as ultimately the forces of freedom (of thought)
won.
Are there any others people can recommend that would be a good choice for
an
atheist/freethinker?
JPG
Not slapping you down, but atheism is not usually about fiction.
--
Freedom of thought entails no "Intellectual Property".
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist fiction recommendations. |
21 Oct 2004 09:35:38 AM |
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Ike wrote:
"JPG" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:ef8fn057k58dmo8eqhu1r5s1020fj2v4l4@4ax.com...
I have just read "Pavane", by Keith Roberts. Written in the late 60s it
is an
alternative history diverging when Queen Elizabeth I is assassinated,
bringing
England under the control of the Catholic Church.
Brought up to date it describes how the industrial revolution never
happened and
England in the 1960s uses steam locomotives to move goods around,
communications
is by giant semaphore stations, and Rome controls all, with the
inquisition
still happening.
I quite enjoyed this book as ultimately the forces of freedom (of thought)
won.
Are there any others people can recommend that would be a good choice for
an
atheist/freethinker?
JPG
Not slapping you down, but atheism is not usually about fiction.
but fiction can be with or without religion, and can be a
useful tool to explore the implications of religious thought.
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist fiction recommendations. |
21 Oct 2004 09:01:35 PM |
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"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:_OPdd.3242$KJ6.2192@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Ike wrote:
"JPG" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:ef8fn057k58dmo8eqhu1r5s1020fj2v4l4@4ax.com...
I have just read "Pavane", by Keith Roberts. Written in the late 60s it
is an
alternative history diverging when Queen Elizabeth I is assassinated,
bringing
England under the control of the Catholic Church.
Brought up to date it describes how the industrial revolution never
happened and
England in the 1960s uses steam locomotives to move goods around,
communications
is by giant semaphore stations, and Rome controls all, with the
inquisition
still happening.
I quite enjoyed this book as ultimately the forces of freedom (of
thought)
won.
Are there any others people can recommend that would be a good choice
for
an
atheist/freethinker?
JPG
Not slapping you down, but atheism is not usually about fiction.
but fiction can be with or without religion, and can be a
useful tool to explore the implications of religious thought.
Ok who needs religious thought?
--
Freedom of thought entails no "Intellectual Property".
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| User: "Woden wodencharternet" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist fiction recommendations. |
21 Oct 2004 09:20:53 PM |
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"Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com> wrote in
news:3SZdd.3810$KJ6.306@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:_OPdd.3242$KJ6.2192@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Ike wrote:
"JPG" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:ef8fn057k58dmo8eqhu1r5s1020fj2v4l4@4ax.com...
I have just read "Pavane", by Keith Roberts. Written in the late
60s it
is an
alternative history diverging when Queen Elizabeth I is
assassinated,
bringing
England under the control of the Catholic Church.
Brought up to date it describes how the industrial revolution never
happened and
England in the 1960s uses steam locomotives to move goods around,
communications
is by giant semaphore stations, and Rome controls all, with the
inquisition
still happening.
I quite enjoyed this book as ultimately the forces of freedom (of
thought)
won.
Are there any others people can recommend that would be a good
choice
for
an
atheist/freethinker?
JPG
Not slapping you down, but atheism is not usually about fiction.
but fiction can be with or without religion, and can be a
useful tool to explore the implications of religious thought.
Ok who needs religious thought?
Yeah, who needs another oxymoron?
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
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| User: "JPG" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist fiction recommendations. |
21 Oct 2004 09:53:13 AM |
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On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:28:04 GMT, "Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com> wrote:
"JPG" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:ef8fn057k58dmo8eqhu1r5s1020fj2v4l4@4ax.com...
I have just read "Pavane", by Keith Roberts. Written in the late 60s it
is an
alternative history diverging when Queen Elizabeth I is assassinated,
bringing
England under the control of the Catholic Church.
Brought up to date it describes how the industrial revolution never
happened and
England in the 1960s uses steam locomotives to move goods around,
communications
is by giant semaphore stations, and Rome controls all, with the
inquisition
still happening.
I quite enjoyed this book as ultimately the forces of freedom (of thought)
won.
Are there any others people can recommend that would be a good choice for
an
atheist/freethinker?
JPG
Not slapping you down, but atheism is not usually about fiction.
I know atheism represents a real-world interpretation but I believe there is a
style of *literary* fiction that atheists can enjoy, even though it may espouse
views contrary to atheism, such as the works of C S Lewis.
That is the difference between atheists and theists, we are able to distinguish
fiction from fact, evidently they can't.
JPG
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| User: "Lisbeth Andersson" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist fiction recommendations. |
21 Oct 2004 02:25:42 PM |
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JPG <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<ef8fn057k58dmo8eqhu1r5s1020fj2v4l4@4ax.com>...
<...>
Are there any others people can recommend that would be a good choice for an
atheist/freethinker?
H Beam Piper: "Gunpowder God", also published as "Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen".
Lisbeth
-----------
The day I don't learn anything new is the day I die.
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| User: "Harry F. Leopold" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist fiction recommendations. |
23 Oct 2004 11:43:10 AM |
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On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:25:42 -0500, Lisbeth Andersson wrote
(in article <ac412eb2.0410211125.af34931@posting.google.com>):
JPG <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:<ef8fn057k58dmo8eqhu1r5s1020fj2v4l4@4ax.com>...
<...>
Are there any others people can recommend that would be a good choice for an
atheist/freethinker?
H Beam Piper: "Gunpowder God", also published as "Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen".
Actually Gunpowder God is a sort of "prequel" to Lord Kalvan. But I agree,
the Gunpowder God stories are great. (I just picked up a bunch of Pipers'
stories recently, rediscovering a lot of old friends once again.)
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
"Nothing can stand up to atheistic critical examination. You guys are the
proctologists of Religion." - angelicusrex
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| User: "Panama Floyd" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist fiction recommendations. |
21 Oct 2004 05:12:35 PM |
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JPG <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<ef8fn057k58dmo8eqhu1r5s1020fj2v4l4@4ax.com>...
I have just read "Pavane", by Keith Roberts. Written in the late 60s it is an
alternative history diverging when Queen Elizabeth I is assassinated, bringing
England under the control of the Catholic Church.
Brought up to date it describes how the industrial revolution never happened and
England in the 1960s uses steam locomotives to move goods around, communications
is by giant semaphore stations, and Rome controls all, with the inquisition
still happening.
I quite enjoyed this book as ultimately the forces of freedom (of thought) won.
Are there any others people can recommend that would be a good choice for an
atheist/freethinker?
JPG
Don't know if you like horror, but I found Simon Clark's "Blood Crazy"
a good read. I don't ususally care for horror at all..but the
"religion" the survivors plan for their post-event world was pretty
cool.
-PF, Atl
aa#2015 Member, KoB!
EAC: Even your cat is on our side.
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| User: "Glenn Arnold" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist fiction recommendations. |
21 Oct 2004 08:25:15 PM |
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JPG wrote:
I have just read "Pavane", by Keith Roberts. Written in the late 60s it is an
alternative history diverging when Queen Elizabeth I is assassinated, bringing
England under the control of the Catholic Church.
Brought up to date it describes how the industrial revolution never happened and
England in the 1960s uses steam locomotives to move goods around, communications
is by giant semaphore stations, and Rome controls all, with the inquisition
still happening.
I quite enjoyed this book as ultimately the forces of freedom (of thought) won.
Are there any others people can recommend that would be a good choice for an
atheist/freethinker?
JPG
Moby *****.
"Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids
and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the
thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky
way? Or is it, that as in essence whiteness is not so much a color as
the visible absence of color, and at the same time the concrete of all
colors; is it for these reasons that there is such a dumb blankness,
full of meaning, in a wide landscape of snows --a colorless, all-color
of atheism from which we shrink?...
And of all these things the Albino whale was the symbol. Wonder
ye then at the fiery hunt?"
Glenn Arnold
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist fiction recommendations. |
21 Oct 2004 05:04:34 PM |
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On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 12:56:17 +0100, JPG <me@privacy.net> wrote:
I have just read "Pavane", by Keith Roberts. Written in the late 60s it is an
alternative history diverging when Queen Elizabeth I is assassinated, bringing
England under the control of the Catholic Church.
Brought up to date it describes how the industrial revolution never happened and
England in the 1960s uses steam locomotives to move goods around
Err, nit-pick here: the invention of the steam engine is normally
considered the starting point of the Industrial Revolution. What
happened in the book to change its course?
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| User: "JPG" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist fiction recommendations. |
22 Oct 2004 04:48:47 AM |
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On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 22:04:34 GMT, raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote:
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 12:56:17 +0100, JPG <me@privacy.net> wrote:
I have just read "Pavane", by Keith Roberts. Written in the late 60s it is an
alternative history diverging when Queen Elizabeth I is assassinated, bringing
England under the control of the Catholic Church.
Brought up to date it describes how the industrial revolution never happened and
England in the 1960s uses steam locomotives to move goods around
Err, nit-pick here: the invention of the steam engine is normally
considered the starting point of the Industrial Revolution. What
happened in the book to change its course?
Tthe book puts the lack of technological progress down to the Vatican. I
remember a bit about internal combustion engines being limited to a certain size
or prohibited by Papal Bull. Wireless communication is used clandestinely in
the later pages of the book, but is considered to be necromancy by the Vatican
and is punishable by the inquisition.
I thoroughly recommend the book, it actually consists of a series of
interconnected stories based loosely around the owners of a freight haulage
company who use steam traction engines to pull road trains. Some of the
descriptions of the modern inquisition (held in Dover Castle) are quite
horrifying.
Amazon reviews:
The late lamented novelist and illustrator Keith Roberts had several claims on
the attention of posterity but none better than this book. 'Pavane' has to be
one of the most painstaking and convincing alternative history stories ever
written. (It also won plaudits from Brian Aldiss and was selected by Anthony
Burgess as one of his '99 Novels: The Best in English Since 1939'.) The prologue
to the book neatly introduces Roberts' other world, describing the bloody
aftermath of Elizabeth I falling to an assassin's bullet in 1588. In the ensuing
chaos, the Armada successfully invade and suppress the forces of the English
Reformation. Thereafter, England remains within the Catholic fold. Most of
'Pavane' is a series of (often beautifully-written) episodes in the history of
this alter-England from 1968 until sometime early in the 21st century. Roberts'
chronicle deftly shows the Church hierarchy and the forces of revolt struggling
through decades of uneasy truce. As the years pass, the power of the Church
comes under attack and an older wisdom begins to re-assert itself. Just when you
think you can see where Roberts' alternative world is going, the ending of the
book throws a very different and thought-provoking slant on this subtly changed
history. Rather unusually for an SF author, Keith Roberts combined a clear and
unpretentious style with a firm grasp of writerly virtues like characterisation
and plot, and, believe me, this unusual combination pays off. (I hate to
disagree with any of the previous reviews, but anybody with an aversion to
fantasy who reads this review might like to note that there aren't actually any
fairies or pixies in 'Pavane' at all - without giving anything away, the 'People
of the Heath' referred to near the end of the book are entirely human.) Finally,
anyone who enjoys 'Pavane' might also like to look out for Roberts' other major
alternative history, 'Weinachtsabend'. This short but powerfully unsettling
novella appears in Roberts' collection 'The Grain Kings' and describes what
replaces the celebration of Christmas in a Nazi-occupied Britain.
I first read this book in 1972 or thereabouts and was immediately entranced by
the author's beautiful style and the story which is, at once, gripping and
romantic. It is a novel made up of shorter stories held together by a common
thread. The technology of the stories is of course "retro" and is created for an
England which has a very different history from the one we know. The Church has
controlled the development of the sciences in the world of Pavane and technology
has progressed at an uneven and majestic pace. But the reader can immediately
relate because Roberts paints such a realistic picture of a world ensnared in
time, caught in the web of the Church's authority. The characters in Pavane are
exquisitely drawn and their roles played out to perfection. Their world is
created so perfectly that you will immediately be caught up in it and greatly
regret when you must leave it, having finished reading the book. If you have a
shred of romance in your soul, you must read Pavane. Unlike most other books I
have read, I have had to experience Pavane several times since 1972 and it never
fails to please me, no matter how many times I read it. I am about to read it
again, for the umpteenth time. Join me
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist fiction recommendations. |
21 Oct 2004 03:25:25 PM |
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On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 12:56:17 +0100, JPG <me@privacy.net> wrote:
I have just read "Pavane", by Keith Roberts. Written in the late 60s it is an
alternative history diverging when Queen Elizabeth I is assassinated, bringing
England under the control of the Catholic Church.
Brought up to date it describes how the industrial revolution never happened and
England in the 1960s uses steam locomotives to move goods around, communications
is by giant semaphore stations, and Rome controls all, with the inquisition
still happening.
I quite enjoyed this book as ultimately the forces of freedom (of thought) won.
Are there any others people can recommend that would be a good choice for an
atheist/freethinker?
It was just discussed to death in a thread above, but Philip Pullman's
trilogy "His Dark Materials" is excellent, thought-provoking fiction.
Also highly recommended is anything by Douglas Adams, Terry Pratchett,
or Neil Gaiman, particularly the hilarious collaboration between the
latter two, "Good Omens". And if you enjoy graphic novels, Alan
Moore's "Watchmen" can't be over-praised.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist fiction recommendations. |
21 Oct 2004 09:39:48 AM |
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On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 12:56:17 +0100, JPG <me@privacy.net> wrote:
I have just read "Pavane", by Keith Roberts. Written in the late 60s it is an
alternative history diverging when Queen Elizabeth I is assassinated, bringing
England under the control of the Catholic Church.
Brought up to date it describes how the industrial revolution never happened and
England in the 1960s uses steam locomotives to move goods around, communications
is by giant semaphore stations, and Rome controls all, with the inquisition
still happening.
I quite enjoyed this book as ultimately the forces of freedom (of thought) won.
Are there any others people can recommend that would be a good choice for an
atheist/freethinker?
Try "A Canticle for Liebowitz" by Walter M. Miller.
JPG
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