Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Sound of Trumpet"
Date: 05 May 2007 12:20:31 PM
Object: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things
http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2007/04/freethinking_ruins_all_things.html
Freethinking Ruins All Things
Slate has started publishing excerpts from Christopher Hitchens' new
book (so very cleverly titled God Is Not Great), the first of which is
here. The argument he advances is certainly not new, nor does Hitchens
say that it is. He takes some satisfaction that his objections have
been recycled time and again. His "mildest" criticism that religion is
man-made is supposed to be the stab to the heart, the "most
devastating" thing one can say about religion. If this is the case,
the religious people of the world can rest easy and return to
quarreling with one another, leaving the pestiferous atheist to abuse
someone else's patience with his tedious declarations of
enlightenment.
At the heart of every freisinning appeal is a lie. They want free
inquiry, Hitchens says, but there is no such thing. Every inquiry must
at least have a purpose or a reason. Inquiry is never really free--it
always has a cost, it always has limits and definitions and it always
entails assumptions. To assume one thing is to exclude another; the
freedom of choice, strictly speaking, is likewise not really free,
because it presupposes the denial of myriad choices, the acceptance of
the costs of the paths not taken, the constant constraints and
finitude that limit the range of choice. The atheists and freethinkers
say they want openmindedness, but their minds are plainly shut off to
the fountains of wisdom of thousands of years because the wisdom
contained in scriptures and hymns--from which virtually all great
Western art and literature derive and to which all of it pays often
unwitting tribute--is expressed in an idiom and attributed to a source
that they reject out of hand because they cannot confirm in their
wretched narrowness of spirit that the Author of life has spoken to
men on the doubtful basis that He has never spoken to them (though it
seems they would not listen to Him if He did).
Freethinkers supposedly want "the pursuit of ideas for their own
sake," but no one pursues ideas simply for their own sake, but in
order to understand, to act or to believe, or to have some combination
of these. Men pursue ideas so that they may understand the world, and
they seek to understand the world to have wisdom. Men desire wisdom in
order to live well, and part of living well is to pursue and know the
Good, and the Good is that which fulfills human nature and causes it
to flourish. The desire to know is a natural desire, one implanted in
us as part of our created being; we yearn to know and to enter into
the unknown because we yearn for unity with the One Who desires that
all things be united in Him. If no religion had ever caused men to
live virtuously and flourish, religion would have disappeared ages
ago. If no religion had produced saints and cultivated the finest
aspects of human nature, very few would adhere themselves to it and
even then it would only be the mad and obsessive. There is nothing
interesting in rehearsing the catalogue of crimes that religious
adherents have committed against each other, since men have always
been slaughtering and oppressing one another and they have tended to
do more of it when they are less in thrall to their religious
tradition than when they are strictly obedient to it. What is
remarkable is how much at least some religions have contributed to the
civilisation and edification of men, which would hardly seem probable
if they were not much more than elaborate exercises in self-deception
and nonsense.
I know that when Hitchens says "'man-made," he means that he thinks
religion is purely and completely the product of the human mind, an
invention, a fraud. He thinks he has the religious fellow cornered by
saying this, as if religious people are unaware that the history of
the religions of the world is also the history of man. The
inextricability of religious practice from human experience over the
millennia is supposed to be proof that there is nothing true in any of
it, as if it were not the remedy for that which ails man or as if it
did not provide something that man requires by nature. But, of course,
religion is man-made. Men build the temples, write the prayers,
organise the rites and offer the oblations and sacrifices. That does
not mean that there is no divinely inspired and true religion. It
means that it is not always immediately self-evident and clear which
is the true religion, and it means that those who have opted for the
sterile, sad path of "freethinking," which is simply to inhabit a
particularly wearisome set of prejudices, have simply lost patience in
trying to discern the truth of the matter. They do not want free
inquiry--they want easy inquiry, an inquiry that never leaves one in
aporia, but always promises explanation and resolution. The typical
freethinker believes that he is at home with uncertainty, and that it
is the religious man who is in dire need of certainty, but the
opposite is quite obviously true: the freethinker cannot really stand
to have loose ends, puzzles or paradoxes. If this, then that is
impossible, the freethinker says. The religious man not only assumes
that paradox will occur, but he takes the paucity of reason to explain
paradox as an indirect confirmation that there are realities that not
even reason, as estimable and valuable as it is, can penetrate or
comprehend. Freethinking can only desecrate, despoil and ruin. It can
create nothing, because it has no vision of the Good, and it will
always be judged as wanting on account of this.
.

User: "S. A. Joyce"

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 07 May 2007 12:20:08 PM
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@emailaccount.com> wrote in message
news:1178385631.902886.180920@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...


http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2007/04/freethinking_ruins_all_things.html


Freethinking Ruins All Things


Slate has started publishing excerpts from Christopher Hitchens' new
book (so very cleverly titled God Is Not Great), the first of which is
here. The argument he advances is certainly not new, nor does Hitchens
say that it is. He takes some satisfaction that his objections have
been recycled time and again. His "mildest" criticism that religion is
man-made is supposed to be the stab to the heart, the "most
devastating" thing one can say about religion. If this is the case,
the religious people of the world can rest easy and return to
quarreling with one another, leaving the pestiferous atheist to abuse
someone else's patience with his tedious declarations of
enlightenment.

At the heart of every freisinning appeal is a lie. They want free
inquiry, Hitchens says, but there is no such thing. Every inquiry must
at least have a purpose or a reason. Inquiry is never really free--it
always has a cost, it always has limits and definitions and it always
entails assumptions. To assume one thing is to exclude another; the
freedom of choice, strictly speaking, is likewise not really free,
because it presupposes the denial of myriad choices, the acceptance of
the costs of the paths not taken, the constant constraints and
finitude that limit the range of choice. The atheists and freethinkers
say they want openmindedness, but their minds are plainly shut off to
the fountains of wisdom of thousands of years because the wisdom
contained in scriptures and hymns--from which virtually all great
Western art and literature derive and to which all of it pays often
unwitting tribute--is expressed in an idiom and attributed to a source
that they reject out of hand because they cannot confirm in their
wretched narrowness of spirit that the Author of life has spoken to
men on the doubtful basis that He has never spoken to them (though it
seems they would not listen to Him if He did).

Freethinkers supposedly want "the pursuit of ideas for their own
sake," but no one pursues ideas simply for their own sake, but in
order to understand, to act or to believe, or to have some combination
of these. Men pursue ideas so that they may understand the world, and
they seek to understand the world to have wisdom. Men desire wisdom in
order to live well, and part of living well is to pursue and know the
Good, and the Good is that which fulfills human nature and causes it
to flourish. The desire to know is a natural desire, one implanted in
us as part of our created being; we yearn to know and to enter into
the unknown because we yearn for unity with the One Who desires that
all things be united in Him. If no religion had ever caused men to
live virtuously and flourish, religion would have disappeared ages
ago. If no religion had produced saints and cultivated the finest
aspects of human nature, very few would adhere themselves to it and
even then it would only be the mad and obsessive. There is nothing
interesting in rehearsing the catalogue of crimes that religious
adherents have committed against each other, since men have always
been slaughtering and oppressing one another and they have tended to
do more of it when they are less in thrall to their religious
tradition than when they are strictly obedient to it. What is
remarkable is how much at least some religions have contributed to the
civilisation and edification of men, which would hardly seem probable
if they were not much more than elaborate exercises in self-deception
and nonsense.

I know that when Hitchens says "'man-made," he means that he thinks
religion is purely and completely the product of the human mind, an
invention, a fraud. He thinks he has the religious fellow cornered by
saying this, as if religious people are unaware that the history of
the religions of the world is also the history of man. The
inextricability of religious practice from human experience over the
millennia is supposed to be proof that there is nothing true in any of
it, as if it were not the remedy for that which ails man or as if it
did not provide something that man requires by nature. But, of course,
religion is man-made. Men build the temples, write the prayers,
organise the rites and offer the oblations and sacrifices. That does
not mean that there is no divinely inspired and true religion. It
means that it is not always immediately self-evident and clear which
is the true religion, and it means that those who have opted for the
sterile, sad path of "freethinking," which is simply to inhabit a
particularly wearisome set of prejudices, have simply lost patience in
trying to discern the truth of the matter. They do not want free
inquiry--they want easy inquiry, an inquiry that never leaves one in
aporia, but always promises explanation and resolution. The typical
freethinker believes that he is at home with uncertainty, and that it
is the religious man who is in dire need of certainty, but the
opposite is quite obviously true: the freethinker cannot really stand
to have loose ends, puzzles or paradoxes. If this, then that is
impossible, the freethinker says. The religious man not only assumes
that paradox will occur, but he takes the paucity of reason to explain
paradox as an indirect confirmation that there are realities that not
even reason, as estimable and valuable as it is, can penetrate or
comprehend. Freethinking can only desecrate, despoil and ruin. It can
create nothing, because it has no vision of the Good, and it will
always be judged as wanting on account of this.

I agree that the title to Hitchens' book might be offensive to some. It's
apparently a take on the Muslim mantra, "Allah hu akbar" ("God is great").
So it arguably reflects a view held as much by religious people who
criticize other people's religions, as by people who consider all religions
equally incredible. That certainly won't put the book on everyone's
must-have list by any means, but it suggests that the potential readership
might be much broader than some suppose.
I must say that your piece is quite entertaining, although some of the
points you raise seem entirely fictitious. In addition to holding some
absurdly incoherent beliefs about non-believers, you seem to be conveniently
overlooking a few things. One of these is that freethinking has permitted
lines of investigation that have effectively combated disease, to the point
that human life expectancy is now double what it was in the Middle Ages.
Before Pasteur, what centuries of traditional belief (that disease is caused
by evil spirits or divine wrath) got us was recurring plagues with no cures
and no prevention in sight. If freethinking is what it takes to fight
disease, end hunger, and make life more agreeable for all concerned, I opt
to go with what works. The neat thing for you is that you can merrily
berate freethinking to your heart's content even as you enjoy its benefits.
However, this does put you in an awkward position. Suppose, for instance,
that you or someone in your family is diagnosed with tuberculosis. Will you
opt for the old treatments that worked well enough a century ago? Will you
forbid the doctors to use modern drugs developed to combat the more
resistant strains of the disease that have evolved since 1900? After all,
if you truly believe evolution is bogus, then you must believe that evolved
forms of TB are bogus. So there's no need for modern drugs to fight it, so
it's all unnecessary effort and expense, right?
--
=SAJ=
[Delete SPAM from address to reply.]
http://tangents.home.att.net/
[I often reply to all newsgroups in the original poster's list. Since I
currently subscribe only to alt.philosophy, any reply to this message should
be directed to that group. Thanks.]
.

User: "Josef Balluch"

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 05 May 2007 03:05:11 PM
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@emailaccount.com> wrote in message
news:1178385631.902886.180920@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...


http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2007/04/freethinking_ruins_all_things.html


Freethinking Ruins All Things

LOL !!
So this clown exercises his free thinking to tell us that free thinking is
bad. Either that or he is expressing his enslaved thoughts.
Regards,
Josef
.

User: "LC"

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 05 May 2007 12:26:16 PM
Fundy spambot "Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@emailaccount.com> wrote in
message news:1178385631.902886.180920@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

His "mildest" criticism that religion is man-made is supposed to be the
stab to the heart, the "most devastating" thing one can say about
religion. If this is the case, the religious people of the world can rest
easy and return to quarreling with one another

Which, of course, they've perfected over the millenia:
"Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other. They slander
each other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot come to any
sort of agreement in their teachings. Each sect brands its own, fills the
head of its own with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of
those it wins over to its side."~ Celsus On the True Doctrine
.
User: "Greywolf"

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 05 May 2007 04:31:40 PM
"LC" <LC_____@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f1iens02ipu@enews2.newsguy.com...


Fundy spambot "Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@emailaccount.com> wrote
in
message news:1178385631.902886.180920@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

His "mildest" criticism that religion is man-made is supposed to be the
stab to the heart, the "most devastating" thing one can say about
religion. If this is the case, the religious people of the world can rest
easy and return to quarreling with one another


Which, of course, they've perfected over the millenia:

"Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other. They
slander
each other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot come to
any
sort of agreement in their teachings. Each sect brands its own, fills the
head of its own with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of
those it wins over to its side."~ Celsus On the True Doctrine


Well I, for one, don't want atheist 'free-thinking' to ruin the 'truth'. So
would I be theologically incorrect if I were to say that:
'God' fathered himself without a mother at first, but later had
supernatural, nonconsensual sex with a 'virgin' mortal betrothed to another
mortal in order to produce a part of himself (or possibly *all* of himself)
in human form on planet earth in order to execute himself and *actually*
'die' via crucifixion in order remove the 'sins' of mankind he created via
the 'evil' he maliciously created and which he infected man with so that
everyone on earth would believe he exists as a deity to be constantly
worshipped and adored for his needless act of human sacrifice without the
slightest tangible proof that he ever was or is!
Have I got that 'right'? I don't want my atheist 'free-thinking' to get in
the way of the truth.
Greywolf
.


User: "655321"

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 05 May 2007 12:27:24 PM
In article <1178385631.902886.180920@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrumpet@emailaccount.com> wrote:

Freethinking Ruins All Things

Yeah... best keep that brain in prison.
--
655321
"We are heroes in error" -- Ahmad Chalabi
.

User: "John Baker"

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 05 May 2007 08:46:43 PM
On 5 May 2007 10:20:31 -0700, Sound of Trumpet
<soundoftrumpet@emailaccount.com> wrote:


http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2007/04/freethinking_ruins_all_things.html


Freethinking Ruins All Things

Of course you'd think that, Strumpet. The very existence of your
hideous death cult depends on ignorance.
.

User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 05 May 2007 01:42:07 PM
On May 5, 10:20 am, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@emailaccount.com>
wrote:

http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2007/04/freethinking_ruins_all_...


...when Hitchens says "'man-made," he means that he thinks
religion is purely and completely the product of the human mind, an
invention, a fraud. He thinks he has the religious fellow cornered by
saying this, as if religious people are unaware that the history of
the religions of the world is also the history of man. The
inextricability of religious practice from human experience over the
millennia is supposed to be proof that there is nothing true in any of
it, as if it were not the remedy for that which ails man or as if it
did not provide something that man requires by nature. But, of course,
religion is man-made. Men build the temples, write the prayers,
organise the rites and offer the oblations and sacrifices. That does
not mean that there is no divinely inspired and true religion.

Religious behavior may have an instinctual component, and if we
succeed in eliminating religious behavior from society, our hardwired
neural structures would re-assert themselves, and we would create
gods, religious institutions and stuff. Should we cut these nerve
cells out of our brains, then, to get rid of this brutish behavior?
Certain religious ideas, specifically, the personal nature of "spirit"
persist in cultures worldwide. There are certain concepts that our
minds easily entertain. Much like language acquisition,
the mind automatically receives certain
concepts more readily than others.
[Instinctual Bias]
Religion ...is the normal product of normal human minds, functioning
in the normal way, and that the normal way is the normal way because
of the evolutionary design of the human mind.
An agent is defined as some entity that is moved or guided by its own
awareness and goals; for us humans, other human beings are among the
most important agents in our environments, but there are also the
various non-human animals.
[This] agency [awareness], probably, evolved hair-triggered in humans
to respond "automatically" under conditions of uncertainty to
potential threats (and opportunities) by intelligent predators (and
protectors).

From this perspective, agency is a sort of "Innate Releasing

Mechanism" (Tinbergen 1951) whose proper evolutionary domain
encompasses animate objects but which inadvertently extends to moving
dots on computer screens, voices in the wind, faces in the clouds, and
virtually any complex design or uncertain circumstance of unknown
origin
This insight into the supernatural as the by-product of a hair-
triggered agency detector was first elaborated by Guthrie (Guthrie
1993; cf. Hume 1957[1756]). We further ground it in the emerging
theory of folkpsychology.
supernatural agents are readily conjured up
because natural selection has trip-wired cognitive
schema for agency detection in the
face of uncertainty.
Uncertainty is omnipresent; so, too, the
hair-triggering of an agency-detection mechanism
that readily promotes supernatural interpretation
and is susceptible to various forms
of cultural manipulation.
Given that the presence of other agents (and what they are doing)
matters to our prospects for survival and reproduction, partially
explains why we are over-sensitive to their presence.
Detecting a predator that is not there
is not a terribly bad thing;
failing to detect a predator that is
there is much more serious.
And something very similar goes for prey: Detecting lunch that isn't
there is much less serious than failing to detect lunch when it is
there. Our capacities for agency detection should be tuned to generate
more false positives than false negatives. For evolutionary reasons,
we should expect to 'detect' some agents which are not there.
The perception of (accidental) patterns of
cues in our environment may be at the root
of the detection of supernatural
agents, of gods.
Cultural manipulation of this modular mechanism and priming facilitate
and direct the process. Because the phenomena created readily activate
intuitively given modular processes, they are more likely to survive
transmission from mind to mind under a wide range of different
environments and learning conditions than entities and information
that are harder to process (Atran 1998, 2001). As a result, they are
more likely to become enduring aspects of human cultures, such as
belief in the supernatural
http://personal.bgsu.edu/~roberth/log2002.html
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/2002/aug02/Sellick.htm
http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/08/our_innate_tend.html
A new theory of cognitive biases, called error management theory
(EMT), proposes that psychological mechanisms are designed to be
predictably biased when the costs of false-positive and false-negative
errors were asymmetrical over evolutionary history. This theory
explains known phenomena such as men's overperception of women's
sexual intent, and it predicts new biases in social inference such as
women's underestimation of men's commitment.
Buss comments on Error Management Theory. In an uncertain world, two
potential errors in thinking: a. partner having affair (but isn't) b.
partner isn't having affair (but is) The cost of making those two
errors are very different. Those making the first error have less cost
(from a reproductive success standpoint) than those who make the
second. Theoretically we evolved toward vigilance and are more likely
to make adaptive error. Explains why men and women sometimes have
delusions that a partner is unfaithful or might be. "It's not paranoia
if they're really out to get you!"
http://www.psychologicalscience.org/media/releases/2002/pr020103.cfm

It
means that it is not always immediately self-evident and clear which
is the true religion, and it means that those who have opted for the
sterile, sad path of "freethinking," which is simply to inhabit a
particularly wearisome set of prejudices, have simply lost patience in
trying to discern the truth of the matter. They do not want free
inquiry--they want easy inquiry, an inquiry that never leaves one in
aporia, but always promises explanation and resolution. The typical
freethinker believes that he is at home with uncertainty, and that it
is the religious man who is in dire need of certainty, but the
opposite is quite obviously true: the freethinker cannot really stand
to have loose ends, puzzles or paradoxes. If this, then that is
impossible, the freethinker says. The religious man not only assumes
that paradox will occur, but he takes the paucity of reason to explain
paradox as an indirect confirmation that there are realities that not
even reason, as estimable and valuable as it is, can penetrate or
comprehend. Freethinking can only desecrate, despoil and ruin. It can
create nothing, because it has no vision of the Good, and it will
always be judged as wanting on account of this.

.
User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 05 May 2007 04:23:01 PM
On May 5, 1:46 pm, Art <n...@zilch.com> wrote:

On 5 May 2007 11:42:07 -0700, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com>
wrote:





On May 5, 10:20 am, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@emailaccount.com>
wrote:

http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2007/04/freethinking_ruins_all_...


...when Hitchens says "'man-made," he means that he thinks
religion is purely and completely the product of the human mind, an
invention, a fraud. He thinks he has the religious fellow cornered by
saying this, as if religious people are unaware that the history of
the religions of the world is also the history of man. The
inextricability of religious practice from human experience over the
millennia is supposed to be proof that there is nothing true in any of
it, as if it were not the remedy for that which ails man or as if it
did not provide something that man requires by nature. But, of course,
religion is man-made. Men build the temples, write the prayers,
organise the rites and offer the oblations and sacrifices. That does
not mean that there is no divinely inspired and true religion.


Religious behavior may have an instinctual component, and if we
succeed in eliminating religious behavior from society, our hardwired
neural structures would re-assert themselves, and we would create
gods, religious institutions and stuff. Should we cut these nerve
cells out of our brains, then, to get rid of this brutish behavior?


God can't be cut out since it's within and forming every atom,
molecule and cell of your body. Brutish behaviour is simply
spiritual ignorance ... which, unfortunately, is too often
fostered by religions. In modern times, it's widely considered
to be "cool" to deny spirituality and the innate wisdom of the cells.
The gods of materialistic reductionism, Darwinism and intellectualism
are worshipped instead. Now, that's brutish :)

I think you mean that "IF my belief that God exists, turns out to be
true, THEN God cannot be cut out since it's within and forming every
atom.." but this argument would be circular and beg the question by
providing the premise as the conclusion without any supporting
arguments. That God is everything may be sufficient for any criteria
it may be necessary, lest you can absolutely eliminate the possibility
that this God is segregated off somewhere and created the universe, or
for that matter whether said God even exists or not.
Basically, an argument that begs the question asks the reader to
simply accept the conclusion without providing real evidence; the
argument either relies on a premise that says the same thing as the
conclusion (which you might hear referred to as "being circular" or
"circular reasoning"), or simply ignores an important (but
questionable) assumption that the argument rests on.
http://www.unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/fallacies.html
Plus, the research of these religious nerve cells doesn't necessary
require any politics or atheist spinning. Nor does Darwin need to be
winning against religion or to have Darwin being worshipped to study
these religious nerve cells and neural structures.

Art-

.
User: "Immortalist"

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 05 May 2007 04:25:30 PM
On May 5, 2:23 pm, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On May 5, 1:46 pm, Art <n...@zilch.com> wrote:





On 5 May 2007 11:42:07 -0700, Immortalist <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com>
wrote:


On May 5, 10:20 am, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@emailaccount.com>
wrote:

http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2007/04/freethinking_ruins_all_...


...when Hitchens says "'man-made," he means that he thinks
religion is purely and completely the product of the human mind, an
invention, a fraud. He thinks he has the religious fellow cornered by
saying this, as if religious people are unaware that the history of
the religions of the world is also the history of man. The
inextricability of religious practice from human experience over the
millennia is supposed to be proof that there is nothing true in any of
it, as if it were not the remedy for that which ails man or as if it
did not provide something that man requires by nature. But, of course,
religion is man-made. Men build the temples, write the prayers,
organise the rites and offer the oblations and sacrifices. That does
not mean that there is no divinely inspired and true religion.


Religious behavior may have an instinctual component, and if we
succeed in eliminating religious behavior from society, our hardwired
neural structures would re-assert themselves, and we would create
gods, religious institutions and stuff. Should we cut these nerve
cells out of our brains, then, to get rid of this brutish behavior?


God can't be cut out since it's within and forming every atom,
molecule and cell of your body. Brutish behaviour is simply
spiritual ignorance ... which, unfortunately, is too often
fostered by religions. In modern times, it's widely considered
to be "cool" to deny spirituality and the innate wisdom of the cells.
The gods of materialistic reductionism, Darwinism and intellectualism
are worshipped instead. Now, that's brutish :)


I think you mean that "IF my belief that God exists, turns out to be
true, THEN God cannot be cut out since it's within and forming every
atom.." but this argument would be circular and beg the question by
providing the premise as the conclusion without any supporting
arguments.
That God is everything may be sufficient for any criteria

I mean "...but it may not be necessary, even if sufficient for the
condition..." here.

it may be necessary, lest you can absolutely eliminate the possibility
that this God is segregated off somewhere and created the universe, or
for that matter whether said God even exists or not.

Basically, an argument that begs the question asks the reader to
simply accept the conclusion without providing real evidence; the
argument either relies on a premise that says the same thing as the
conclusion (which you might hear referred to as "being circular" or
"circular reasoning"), or simply ignores an important (but
questionable) assumption that the argument rests on.

http://www.unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/fallacies.html

Plus, the research of these religious nerve cells doesn't necessary
require any politics or atheist spinning. Nor does Darwin need to be
winning against religion or to have Darwin being worshipped to study
these religious nerve cells and neural structures.



Art-- Hide quoted text -


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.



User: ""

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 06 May 2007 12:55:59 PM
On May 5, 1:20 pm, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@emailaccount.com>
wrote:

http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2007/04/freethinking_ruins_all_...

Freethinking Ruins All Things

http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2005/113-2/crybaby.jpg
-PF, Atl.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
.
User: "Vlad the accountant"

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 07 May 2007 08:49:15 AM
On 6 May, 18:55,
wrote:

On May 5, 1:20 pm, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@emailaccount.com>
wrote:

http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2007/04/freethinking_ruins_all_...


Freethinking Ruins All Things


http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2005/113-2/crybaby.jpg

-PF, Atl.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!

Im just amazed a cretinist manged to fill all that space without cut
and paste...i checked.
.


User: "Tiktaalik"

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 06 May 2007 12:50:22 PM
On May 5, 6:20 pm, Sound off Muppet <soundoftrum...@emailaccount.com>
babbled:
Driveling idiocy snipped.
***** and die you whining hypocritical deadbrained speciesist
bollocks.
"I am in favour of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the
way of a whole human being". (Abraham Lincoln).
.

User: "Uncle Vic"

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 05 May 2007 01:46:45 PM
One fine day in alt.atheism, Sound of Trumpet
<soundoftrumpet@emailaccount.com> bloodied us up with this:

Freethinking Ruins All Things

Poor baby. Move to Iran.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack. Plonked by Fester.
Member Duke Spanking Club.
.
User: "655321"

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 05 May 2007 09:47:37 PM
In article <Xns992777D32F826vicman@66.250.146.128>,
Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com> wrote:

One fine day in alt.atheism, Sound of Trumpet
<soundoftrumpet@emailaccount.com> bloodied us up with this:

Freethinking Ruins All Things


Poor baby. Move to Iran.

Not repressive enough. Saudi Arabia or Alabama would be more Trumpy's
speed.
--
655321
"We are heroes in error" -- Ahmad Chalabi
.

User: "scotty"

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 05 May 2007 06:26:14 PM
On May 5, 2:46 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

One fine day in alt.atheism, Sound of Trumpet
<soundoftrum...@emailaccount.com> bloodied us up with this:

Freethinking Ruins All Things


Poor baby. Move to Iran.

--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack. Plonked by Fester.
Member Duke Spanking Club.

What should I do if God asks me to sacrifice my son?
.
User: "Syd M."

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 06 May 2007 01:58:10 AM
On May 5, 7:26 pm, scotty <bnbk...@comcast.net> wrote:

On May 5, 2:46 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

One fine day in alt.atheism, Sound of Trumpet
<soundoftrum...@emailaccount.com> bloodied us up with this:


Freethinking Ruins All Things


Poor baby. Move to Iran.


--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack. Plonked by Fester.
Member Duke Spanking Club.


What should I do if God asks me to sacrifice my son?

Tell him to go ***** himself.
PDW
.

User: "Uncle Vic"

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 05 May 2007 07:25:19 PM
One fine day in alt.atheism, scotty <bnbkern@comcast.net> bloodied us up
with this:

On May 5, 2:46 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

One fine day in alt.atheism, Sound of Trumpet
<soundoftrum...@emailaccount.com> bloodied us up with this:

Freethinking Ruins All Things


Poor baby. Move to Iran.

--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack. Plonked by Fester.
Member Duke Spanking Club.


What should I do if God asks me to sacrifice my son?


Go to the nearest drug rehab and register.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack. Plonked by Fester.
Member Duke Spanking Club.
.


User: "Hatter"

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 07 May 2007 12:41:38 PM
On May 5, 2:46 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

One fine day in alt.atheism, Sound of Trumpet
<soundoftrum...@emailaccount.com> bloodied us up with this:

Freethinking Ruins All Things


Poor baby. Move to Iran.

Did you see the actual site? This is a red meat, "kill the infidel"
type of Christian. A, Scary, out of touch with reality, nutjob. He
would like to move to iran, to behead everyone who didn't convert.
Hatter
.


User: "SeppoP"

Title: Re: Atheist Freethinking Ruins All Things 05 May 2007 12:29:00 PM
Sound of Trumpet wrote:

http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2007/04/freethinking_ruins_all_things.html


Freethinking Ruins All Things


Slate has started publishing excerpts from Christopher Hitchens' new
book (so very cleverly titled God Is Not Great), the first of which is
here. The argument he advances is certainly not new, nor does Hitchens
say that it is. He takes some satisfaction that his objections have
been recycled time and again. His "mildest" criticism that religion is
man-made is supposed to be the stab to the heart, the "most
devastating" thing one can say about religion. If this is the case,
the religious people of the world can rest easy and return to
quarreling with one another, leaving the pestiferous atheist to abuse
someone else's patience with his tedious declarations of
enlightenment.

At the heart of every freisinning appeal is a lie. They want free
inquiry, Hitchens says, but there is no such thing. Every inquiry must
at least have a purpose or a reason. Inquiry is never really free--it
always has a cost, it always has limits and definitions and it always
entails assumptions. To assume one thing is to exclude another; the
freedom of choice, strictly speaking, is likewise not really free,
because it presupposes the denial of myriad choices, the acceptance of
the costs of the paths not taken, the constant constraints and
finitude that limit the range of choice. The atheists and freethinkers
say they want openmindedness, but their minds are plainly shut off to
the fountains of wisdom of thousands of years because the wisdom
contained in scriptures and hymns--from which virtually all great
Western art and literature derive and to which all of it pays often
unwitting tribute--is expressed in an idiom and attributed to a source
that they reject out of hand because they cannot confirm in their
wretched narrowness of spirit that the Author of life has spoken to
men on the doubtful basis that He has never spoken to them (though it
seems they would not listen to Him if He did).

Freethinkers supposedly want "the pursuit of ideas for their own
sake," but no one pursues ideas simply for their own sake, but in
order to understand, to act or to believe, or to have some combination
of these. Men pursue ideas so that they may understand the world, and
they seek to understand the world to have wisdom. Men desire wisdom in
order to live well, and part of living well is to pursue and know the
Good, and the Good is that which fulfills human nature and causes it
to flourish. The desire to know is a natural desire, one implanted in
us as part of our created being; we yearn to know and to enter into
the unknown because we yearn for unity with the One Who desires that
all things be united in Him. If no religion had ever caused men to
live virtuously and flourish, religion would have disappeared ages
ago. If no religion had produced saints and cultivated the finest
aspects of human nature, very few would adhere themselves to it and
even then it would only be the mad and obsessive. There is nothing
interesting in rehearsing the catalogue of crimes that religious
adherents have committed against each other, since men have always
been slaughtering and oppressing one another and they have tended to
do more of it when they are less in thrall to their religious
tradition than when they are strictly obedient to it. What is
remarkable is how much at least some religions have contributed to the
civilisation and edification of men, which would hardly seem probable
if they were not much more than elaborate exercises in self-deception
and nonsense.

I know that when Hitchens says "'man-made," he means that he thinks
religion is purely and completely the product of the human mind, an
invention, a fraud. He thinks he has the religious fellow cornered by
saying this, as if religious people are unaware that the history of
the religions of the world is also the history of man. The
inextricability of religious practice from human experience over the
millennia is supposed to be proof that there is nothing true in any of
it, as if it were not the remedy for that which ails man or as if it
did not provide something that man requires by nature. But, of course,
religion is man-made. Men build the temples, write the prayers,
organise the rites and offer the oblations and sacrifices. That does
not mean that there is no divinely inspired and true religion. It
means that it is not always immediately self-evident and clear which
is the true religion, and it means that those who have opted for the
sterile, sad path of "freethinking," which is simply to inhabit a
particularly wearisome set of prejudices, have simply lost patience in
trying to discern the truth of the matter. They do not want free
inquiry--they want easy inquiry, an inquiry that never leaves one in
aporia, but always promises explanation and resolution. The typical
freethinker believes that he is at home with uncertainty, and that it
is the religious man who is in dire need of certainty, but the
opposite is quite obviously true: the freethinker cannot really stand
to have loose ends, puzzles or paradoxes. If this, then that is
impossible, the freethinker says. The religious man not only assumes
that paradox will occur, but he takes the paucity of reason to explain
paradox as an indirect confirmation that there are realities that not
even reason, as estimable and valuable as it is, can penetrate or
comprehend. Freethinking can only desecrate, despoil and ruin. It can
create nothing, because it has no vision of the Good, and it will
always be judged as wanting on account of this.

This *really* is the fundamentalist "thinking" in a nutshell.
Fundamentalism is directly threatened by people thinking freely and not controlled
by Taliban preachers.
Religious fundamentalism *requires* ignorance from the adherents, it feeds on ignorance, it breaths ignorance,
it breeds ignorance and cannot survive without ignorance.
That is *the* reason why these dishonest and greedy Taliban preachers keep whining against education and science.
--
Seppo P.
What's wrong with Theocracy? (a Finnish Taliban, Oct 1, 2005)
.


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