| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"johac" |
| Date: |
02 Aug 2004 02:05:50 AM |
| Object: |
Atheist Invocation invokes brimstone |
Check out some of the responses at the bottom.
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/31/Hillsborough/Invocation_invokes_br.sh
tml
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Invocation invokes brimstone
Angry e-mails beset City Hall the day after an atheist opened a
City Council meeting.
By DAVID KARP, Times Staff Writer
Published July 31, 2004
TAMPA - When City Council member John Dingfelder invited an atheist to
give the invocation at this week's council meeting, he said he did not
intend to cause a stir.
"I was honestly hoping it would not be a big deal," he said.
As it turned out, he was wrong.
On Friday, the phone lines at the council offices lit up. E-mails
poured through the city's Web site.
The day before, three of the six council members walked out rather
than listen to an invocation from someone who does not believe in God.
Even before atheist Michael Harvey began, council member Kevin White
moved to cancel the invocation.
When his motion failed 2-4, White and council members Mary Alvarez and
Rose Ferlita left.
The invocation that followed their exit unleased a torrent of emotion.
"You have just lost any chance of getting my vote a second time," one
woman wrote Dingfelder. "I also believe there is good in every soul,
but I would not invite a rapist or thief to my home for dinner to
prove it."
Harvey, the atheist, said people came up to him all day Friday to
congratulate him. That wasn't the case for Ed Golly, chairman of
Atheists of Florida. Someone left a profane-laced message on his
answering machine at home.
"You need to be exterminated," the caller said.
Experts said the outpouring was predictable.
"Any time you talk about that which is close to the heart - that is,
religion and family - all of these things provoke more heat than
light," said James Strange, a religious studies professor at the
University of South Florida.
Dingfelder did not return calls for comment. His cell phone was not
accepting messages - it was full.
The council's custom of opening a meeting with an invocation began so
long ago, no one reached Friday could remember when. This isn't the
first time that an invocation has offended.
In the 1980s, Sandy Freedman, then a council member, objected that
only members of a ministerial association could offer prayers. The
association had no black ministers, and no one from other faiths.
Freedman asked the council chairman if the prayers could be
ecumenical. "He would tell me that he can't pray unless it is in
Christ's name," she said.
Later, council member Linda Saul-Sena changed the policy so that a
different council member could select the clergy every two months.
Council members have invited poets, community leaders and others. One
speaker read from writings of Anne Frank, a girl who kept a diary
while her family hid from the Nazis for 25 months.
Since January, the invocations have included the word "Jesus" four
times.
In May, Gary Schnable, pastor of Word of Life Foursquare Church, gave
the invocation. He thanked God for enlightening people about "innocent
lives killed in the womb" and "alternative lifestyles." No one
objected or ruled him out of order.
Most other government agencies begin with a prayer. The Legislature
opens with a prayer, although they don't pray at committee meetings.
Both houses of Congress have chaplains.
In Pinellas Park, the City Council prays and keeps a Bible on the dais
next to mayor's nameplate.
Other agencies such as Tampa Bay Water, the Hillsborough Aviation
Authority and the Pasco County School Board do not pray. Last year,
the Pasco County Commission dropped a prayer that referred to
"Heavenly Father" and Jesus. Instead, they use a general invocation
that starts, "O, Merciful Creator."
Opponents say prayer at government meetings violates the First
Amendment to the Constitution, which says the government should not
pass laws that establish a religion. But the U.S. Supreme Court in
1983 ruled that the prayers do not violate the separation between
church and state. The court noted that the authors of the First
Amendment authorized Congress to hire chaplains in 1789, three days
after agreeing to the language in the Bill of Rights.
Allowing prayer at a government meeting does not amount to
establishing an official religion for the nation, the court ruled.
Since then, appeals courts have held that governments must open
invocations to a wide range of viewpoints.
This week's controversy caused some to argue that the council should
eliminate the invocation, if members will not listen to unpopular
invocations.
Roy Kaplan, executive director of the National Conference on Community
and Justice, said one way to deal with the demands of diverse
religious opinion would be to switch to a moment of silence for
reflection before beginning the meeting.
"The point is prayer is a private thing, not a public thing," said
Kaplan, whose organization distributes a pamphlet on how to offer
inclusive public prayers. "Having people come in and pray in a
sectarian way is offensive to many people."
Others said that if the council has a prayer, it should be willing to
hear speakers of different faiths - even those inspired by reason and
science.
"I would hope that our public officials would be more civil to the
public. Lord knows, we have to sit through a lot of things we don't
like to hear from them," said lawyer Rochelle Reback.
"The people who walked out probably know for the very first time in
their lives what it is like to be preached to," said Barry Lynn, a
United Church of Christ minister and executive director of Americans
United for the Separation of Church and State.
The invocation had plenty of defenders, however.
"I would have walked out too," said Christopher Gould Sr., general
manager of a Christian radio station, WTBN AM 570 and 910 FM.
"I think there is a constant chipping away at our institutions," he
said. "To allow an atheist the opportunity for an invocation lowers
the standards of what an invocation is."
A CALL TO ACTION
City Council members got a flood of calls and e-mails about Thursday's
meeting. Council members Kevin White, Mary Alvarez and Rose Ferlita
walked out rather than hear an atheist give the invocation. Here's a
sample of the public sentiment expressed in those messages:
"I don't know if anyone on your council professes to be a Christian or
even believe in God, but if you did not protest this decision or walk
out, you will stand before God one day and answer for blaspheming his
name."
* * *
"The behavior of White, Alvarez and Ferlita is typical of hateful
Christians. What they can't understand, they fear. Why are these
people on the City Council? And what's up with White's statement
(that) listening to an atheist even one time could unleash a "snowball
effect' on government? He compared it to having unprotected sex. Very
twisted thinking. I'm not even sure you could call that thinking."
* * *
"I sent an e-mail to the mayor, asking her to reprimand White, Ferlita
and Alvarez. We can not live in an intolerant society. These three are
not representing themselves. They are representing the people of
Tampa."
* * *
"I am horrified that the City Council of Tampa would allow an atheist
to open a meeting. This nation was founded by God. This isn't about
diversity. It's about Satan gaining another foothold."
* * *
"Imagine a man saying, "I just can't sit here and listen to a woman.'
Would Mary Alvarez support it? Imagine a white man saying, "We have
never had people of an African-American group represent Americans, and
I don't think it is appropriate in this setting.' Would Mary Alvarez
be saying he was "brave?' "
* * *
"In no other time more than today do we need our higher power's
guidance to use wisdom in connection with all of our day-to-day
activities. We do not need to bow down to those who are so opposed to
our collective beliefs and kowtow to assuage those few who would
disrupt."
* * *
"Shame, shame on those of you who tried to suppress this act. Shame on
you who found it necessary to leave during the invocation. Mr.
Dingfelder: Continue on, do not be intimidated, and Bravo!"
* * *
"I applaud you (Kevin White) for taking a stand yesterday morning. I
speak to you not as a constituent, but as an employee for the city of
Tampa. It could be difficult to serve a "boss' without faith or vision.
---
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
-The ability to change one's mind, ideas, and opinions when confronted with
new facts is the sign of the rational and intelligent. The inability to do
so is the hallmark of the dimwitted and the fanatic. This applies not only
to science and philosophy, but also to politics.-
.
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| User: "Adam Marczyk" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Invocation invokes brimstone |
02 Aug 2004 06:43:28 PM |
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"johac" <jhachm@ixpresremove.com> wrote in message
news:jhachm-ACF244.00055002082004@news.giganews.com
Check out some of the responses at the bottom.
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/31/Hillsborough/Invocation_invokes_br.sh
tml
---
Invocation invokes brimstone
Angry e-mails beset City Hall the day after an atheist opened a
City Council meeting.
By DAVID KARP, Times Staff Writer
Published July 31, 2004
TAMPA - When City Council member John Dingfelder invited an atheist to
give the invocation at this week's council meeting, he said he did not
intend to cause a stir.
"I was honestly hoping it would not be a big deal," he said.
Good for Michael Harvey, I say, and good for the councilmen who invited him!
This deluge of ignorant threats is bound to follow every time an atheist
speaks out in public, but that's not what's important. What's important is
that people get used to the idea that atheists exist, that we have our own
opinions, and that they can't frighten us into silence. We need more
invocations like this, and we need more atheists speaking out in general.
Some bigots will never change their mind, but we can reach the people who
matter - people whose opinions about atheists, up until now, have been
shaped by people like the ones who wrote in promising hellfire on anyone who
allows an atheist to exercise his constitutional rights. Seeing a real live
atheist and seeing that he's a normal person just like everyone else will do
a lot to change their minds.
[...]
--
"The spiritual man...attacks what he believes | a.a. #2001
to be wrong, though defended by the many, | ebonmuse!hotmail.com
and he is willing to stand for the right | www.ebonmusings.org
against the world." --Robert Green Ingersoll | PGP Key ID: 0x5C66F737
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Invocation invokes brimstone |
02 Aug 2004 11:46:40 PM |
|
|
In article <AkAPc.1709$nC3.1065@news02.roc.ny>,
"Adam Marczyk" <ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote:
"johac" <jhachm@ixpresremove.com> wrote in message
news:jhachm-ACF244.00055002082004@news.giganews.com
Check out some of the responses at the bottom.
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/31/Hillsborough/Invocation_invokes_br.sh
tml
---
Invocation invokes brimstone
Angry e-mails beset City Hall the day after an atheist opened a
City Council meeting.
By DAVID KARP, Times Staff Writer
Published July 31, 2004
TAMPA - When City Council member John Dingfelder invited an atheist to
give the invocation at this week's council meeting, he said he did not
intend to cause a stir.
"I was honestly hoping it would not be a big deal," he said.
Good for Michael Harvey, I say, and good for the councilmen who invited him!
This deluge of ignorant threats is bound to follow every time an atheist
speaks out in public, but that's not what's important. What's important is
that people get used to the idea that atheists exist, that we have our own
opinions, and that they can't frighten us into silence. We need more
invocations like this, and we need more atheists speaking out in general.
Some bigots will never change their mind, but we can reach the people who
matter - people whose opinions about atheists, up until now, have been
shaped by people like the ones who wrote in promising hellfire on anyone who
allows an atheist to exercise his constitutional rights. Seeing a real live
atheist and seeing that he's a normal person just like everyone else will do
a lot to change their minds.
[...]
What gets me is that the fundies are the one's who are always whining
about being 'persecuted' by evil secular humanists and atheists.
Neverf mind that all we want is for them to pay attention to our
Constitution and give us our rights too.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
-The ability to change one's mind, ideas, and opinions when confronted with
new facts is the sign of the rational and intelligent. The inability to do
so is the hallmark of the dimwitted and the fanatic. This applies not only
to science and philosophy, but also to politics.-
.
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| User: "Kathy" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Invocation invokes brimstone |
02 Aug 2004 10:50:25 AM |
|
|
"johac" <jhachm@ixpresremove.com> wrote in message
news:jhachm-ACF244.00055002082004@news.giganews.com...
Check out some of the responses at the bottom.
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/31/Hillsborough/Invocation_invokes_br.shtml
---
Invocation invokes brimstone
Angry e-mails beset City Hall the day after an atheist opened a
City Council meeting.
(snip)
What exactly did he say in his invocation? Nowhere in the article does it
give the text. Did he invoke Satan or something? My guess is not, as an
atheist would not believe in Satan either. What was so offensive about his
speech?
Why do city councils feel the need to parade their religion before meetings
anyway? Local politicians seldom behave in a very Christ-like manner in
their dealings.
Kathy aa #1802
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| User: "Adam Marczyk" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Invocation invokes brimstone |
02 Aug 2004 06:39:35 PM |
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"Kathy" <k.knight@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:5ptPc.1393866$Ar.790496@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com
"johac" <jhachm@ixpresremove.com> wrote in message
news:jhachm-ACF244.00055002082004@news.giganews.com...
Check out some of the responses at the bottom.
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/31/Hillsborough/Invocation_invokes_br.shtml
---
Invocation invokes brimstone
Angry e-mails beset City Hall the day after an atheist opened a
City Council meeting.
(snip)
What exactly did he say in his invocation? Nowhere in the article does it
give the text. Did he invoke Satan or something? My guess is not, as an
atheist would not believe in Satan either. What was so offensive about
his
speech?
If I recall, he called for our leaders to be guided by reason and logic. His
speech wasn't offensive to those people - his existence was.
--
"Knowledge forbidd'n? | a.a. #2001
Suspicious, reasonless. Why should their Lord | ICQ: 8777843
Envy them that? Can it be sin to know, | www.ebonmusings.org
can it be death?" | ebonmuse!hotmail.com
--John Milton, Paradise Lost | PGP: 0x5C66F737
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Invocation invokes brimstone |
02 Aug 2004 11:49:30 PM |
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|
In article
<5ptPc.1393866$Ar.790496@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
"Kathy" <k.knight@rogers.com> wrote:
"johac" <jhachm@ixpresremove.com> wrote in message
news:jhachm-ACF244.00055002082004@news.giganews.com...
Check out some of the responses at the bottom.
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/31/Hillsborough/Invocation_invokes_br.shtml
---
Invocation invokes brimstone
Angry e-mails beset City Hall the day after an atheist opened a
City Council meeting.
(snip)
What exactly did he say in his invocation? Nowhere in the article does it
give the text. Did he invoke Satan or something? My guess is not, as an
atheist would not believe in Satan either. What was so offensive about his
speech?
Why do city councils feel the need to parade their religion before meetings
anyway? Local politicians seldom behave in a very Christ-like manner in
their dealings.
I can't figure out why they need these invocations in the first place.
The council is supposed to be discussing matters of importance to the
city and making policy. What invisible non-existent beings have to do
with that is beyond me.
Kathy aa #1802
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
-The ability to change one's mind, ideas, and opinions when confronted with
new facts is the sign of the rational and intelligent. The inability to do
so is the hallmark of the dimwitted and the fanatic. This applies not only
to science and philosophy, but also to politics.-
.
|
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| User: "LP" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Invocation invokes brimstone |
02 Aug 2004 02:50:06 PM |
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On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 15:50:25 GMT, "Kathy" <k.knight@rogers.com> wrote:
"johac" <jhachm@ixpresremove.com> wrote in message
news:jhachm-ACF244.00055002082004@news.giganews.com...
Check out some of the responses at the bottom.
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/31/Hillsborough/Invocation_invokes_br.shtml
---
Invocation invokes brimstone
Angry e-mails beset City Hall the day after an atheist opened a
City Council meeting.
(snip)
What exactly did he say in his invocation? Nowhere in the article does it
give the text. Did he invoke Satan or something? My guess is not, as an
atheist would not believe in Satan either. What was so offensive about his
speech?
Why do city councils feel the need to parade their religion before meetings
anyway? Local politicians seldom behave in a very Christ-like manner in
their dealings.
Matthew 10:34, "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the
earth: it is not peace I have come to bring, but a sword,"
Luke 12:51 as, "Do you suppose that I am here to bring peace on earth?
No, I tell you, but rather division."
Maybe they have recently read these Jesus quotes in the Bible, and
believe that they are acting in a Christ-like manner.
.
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| User: "W. Syme" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist Invocation invokes brimstone |
02 Aug 2004 02:02:47 AM |
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On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:05:50 -0700, johac <jhachm@ixpresremove.com>
wrote:
Check out some of the responses at the bottom.
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/31/Hillsborough/Invocation_invokes_br.sh
tml
Xtian invocations......."church and state? what do you mean?"
--
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
W. Syme (pseudonym), European, non-native English speaker, "soft" atheist.
Email will not be read.
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