| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Rick" |
| Date: |
22 Sep 2006 12:11:01 AM |
| Object: |
Atheist supports Ratzinger crusade against secularism |
http://www.cathnews.com/news/411/131.php
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has enlisted in his defence of Christianity
against secular Europe, the German philosopher Jürgen Habermas, who said in
an essay published this month that "Christianity, and nothing else, is the
ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights, and democracy, the
benchmarks of Western civilisation".
....
- Rick
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist supports Ratzinger crusade against secularism |
22 Sep 2006 12:21:12 AM |
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"Rick" <pl1_alpha_geek@juNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:lo6dncxvq5H07Y7YnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@giganews.com...
http://www.cathnews.com/news/411/131.php
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has enlisted in his defence of Christianity
against secular Europe, the German philosopher Jürgen Habermas, who said
in
an essay published this month that "Christianity, and nothing else, is the
ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights, and democracy,
the
benchmarks of Western civilisation".
What was he smoking?
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist supports Ratzinger crusade against secularism |
22 Sep 2006 12:25:57 AM |
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"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:iJWdnZ2nEMhe747YnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@io.com...
"Rick" <pl1_alpha_geek@juNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:lo6dncxvq5H07Y7YnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@giganews.com...
http://www.cathnews.com/news/411/131.php
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has enlisted in his defence of Christianity
against secular Europe, the German philosopher Jürgen Habermas, who said
in
an essay published this month that "Christianity, and nothing else, is
the
ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights, and democracy,
the
benchmarks of Western civilisation".
What was he smoking?
;) My words exactly.
--
rb #2187
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist supports Ratzinger crusade against secularism |
22 Sep 2006 04:10:06 AM |
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On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 00:21:12 -0500, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com>
wrote:
"Rick" <pl1_alpha_geek@juNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:lo6dncxvq5H07Y7YnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@giganews.com...
http://www.cathnews.com/news/411/131.php
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has enlisted in his defence of Christianity
against secular Europe, the German philosopher Jürgen Habermas, who said
in
an essay published this month that "Christianity, and nothing else, is the
ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights, and democracy,
the
benchmarks of Western civilisation".
What was he smoking?
Something that must be injected I guess.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist supports Ratzinger crusade against secularism |
22 Sep 2006 07:13:53 AM |
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Jos Flachs schreef:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 00:21:12 -0500, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com>
wrote:
"Rick" <pl1_alpha_geek@juNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:lo6dncxvq5H07Y7YnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@giganews.com...
http://www.cathnews.com/news/411/131.php
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has enlisted in his defence of Christianity
against secular Europe, the German philosopher J=FCrgen Habermas, who =
said
in
an essay published this month that "Christianity, and nothing else, is=
the
ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights, and democrac=
y,
the
benchmarks of Western civilisation".
What was he smoking?
Something that must be injected I guess.
I don't think there is reason to suspect the man used any drugs.
(unlike the pople, who must have dronken some whine)
Although "and nothing else" is of course a gross mistake,
the idea that our modern values have come from a Christian tradition is
not totally without ground. Modern Secular humanism is a spring-off
from Christian Humanism such as Thomas More and Erasmus.
If the figure of Jesus actually existed he could also be counted as a
Jewish humanist along with some of the (other)prophets. Clearly those
people valued treating you fellow human in the right way highly over
any religious practice.
In fact even the Decalogue (1500 BC or thereabout) involves itselve
more with behaviour between human beings that with "JHVH". Then again
there have been Muslim humanists as well and before them Greek and
Roman philospers - some Pagan but some clearly Atheists - who helped
to form modern understanding.
Lets examine the values though:
1=2E Liberty
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
This is clearly a non-religious item, as about all religion see people
as slaves of a God.
The only religion where it plays a role, would be Buddism although
there is mainly means liberty from desire. However by placing a
fictional God before any earthly ruler, monotheism had indeed helped
people to - at least spiritually - free themselves from those rulers.
2=2E Conscience
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
This is found in all religions and the only difference between
religious conscience and personal conscience is that in relgion
conscience is represented by the will of the imaginary God. In fact in
most instances the God and one's conscience are exchangeable.
Of course all religions offer a handle for people without conscience,
to make people shed there inhibitions to go and murder people of a
different believe.
The emperor of Constantinople Ratzinger qouted did not tell any lies,
but he never realized that Christian Kings (Like Charlemagne) also had
brought people to convert by violence also. So his conclusion should
have been Muhammed brought nothing new at all. Again The monotheistic
God was a spiritual predessor of the modern supremacy of human
conscience.
3=2E Human rights
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Those indeed find more support within Chrisitianity than within (most)
other religions
but the Roman Catholic Church can not be proud of that, as human rights
mostly developped
within Protestant communities in there strugle to be free FROM the
Roman Catholic Church.
Freedom of religion being the number one item on the list.
Human rights however were suported better by Moses and Jesus and even
Muhammed,
than they were by Pagans like Greek and Romans. And here we find more
than spiritual support.
Sadly followers of those three prophets have been emphasing religious
practice over human right many a time, but in essence the guidelines
for human rights, can be found in the Bible. Only those who do not
discriminate between the verses may not find it.
(like Fundamentalists who claim every silly Bible word to be of equal
importance,
and some atheists on the other hand who claim every word to be equally
foolish)
4=2E Democracy.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
As for democracy that was invented by pagan Greeks not by any
Christian,
even the anient german "thing" was more democratic than
anything ever found in the Church of Rome.
(and it dates back - again about 1500) to the Hettites)
Of course by embedding the Greek philosphers within Christian
tradition,
it did help keep the Idea of Democracy alive. (The didn't burn all the
books.)
But at the same time much of the Greek traditions have been brought
back
to Western Europe thru contacts with Muslims and Jews.
What Christianity has added (but so did Islam) was the involvement of
the poor.
in the Roman empire it was the slaves who became Christians first.
But when Christian partys voted for the general right to vote for all
men over 22 in the Netherlands, they only did so after the Socialists
agreed to vote for Christian schools to be
financed by the state. Again not so good a record for the Christians.
Conclusion.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
All in all this philospher is only 50% right,
Christianity may do a better than Islam, but the reason is somewhat
circumstancial.
Had Jesus become King of Israel and had Muhammed been beheaded by the
pagan leaders of Mecca, it might have been the other way around.
Christianity did play a part in the evolutions of all these ideas,
but Christian institutions (this by the way Habermas also mentions!)
generally have a bad record, almost always trying to prevent (further)
evolutions.
Peter van Velzen Daengprasert
September 2006
Amstelveen
The Netherlands
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist supports Ratzinger crusade against secularism |
22 Sep 2006 09:01:00 PM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, Rick poured fuel on the fire with
the following:
Atheist supports Ratzinger crusade against secularism
Nope. As the first sentence of the article shows, the Zinger is
borrowing from Habermas.
http://www.cathnews.com/news/411/131.php
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has enlisted in his defence of Christianity
against secular Europe, the German philosopher Jürgen Habermas, ...
There is considerable controversy about this tactic by the Zinger. Some
of the kinder critics see it as mere expediency, while the less kind see
it as being misguided and a sign of weakness. One could even make the
case that this is a sign of desperation.
http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=20037&eng=y
http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=8538&eng=y
Regards,
Josef
The heart bowed down by weight of woe to weakest hope will cling.
-- Alfred Bunn
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: Don't believe the craplick church spin machine. |
22 Sep 2006 06:38:10 PM |
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In article <lo6dncxvq5H07Y7YnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@giganews.com>,=20
pl1_alpha_geek@juNOSPAM.com says...
http://www.cathnews.com/news/411/131.php
=20
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has enlisted in his defence of Christianity
against secular Europe, the German philosopher J=FCrgen Habermas, who sai=
d in
an essay published this month that "Christianity, and nothing else, is th=
e
ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights, and democracy, =
the
benchmarks of Western civilisation".
It is fradulently implied that the quoted material above is from Jurgen=20
Habermas. In fact that was an interpretation written by Sandro Magister. =
=20
http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=3D20037&eng=3Dy
Habermas may have some generous things to say about Aquinas, but he's=20
obviously not a very good student of history if he thinks that the=20
catholic church originated most of the ideas it now possesses. It stole=20
them from pagans and borrowed freely from other cultures, like Judaism,=20
who, in turn, borrowed from many older cultures. The Golden Rule,=20
Charity, Humility, etc are all humanistic principles which have nothing=20
to do with divinity and everything to do with human interactions, and our=
=20
sociobiology. BTW, it seems a common tactic of religious types to find=20
aged secularists in their twighlight dottage and misrepresent them as=20
some kind of new convert to the faith. =20
--=20
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the=20
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be=20
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,=20
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to=20
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist supports Ratzinger crusade against secularism |
29 Sep 2006 06:25:53 PM |
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On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 00:11:01 -0500, "Rick" <pl1_alpha_geek@juNOSPAM.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
http://www.cathnews.com/news/411/131.php
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has enlisted in his defence of Christianity
against secular Europe, the German philosopher Jürgen Habermas, who said in
an essay published this month that "Christianity, and nothing else, is the
ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights, and democracy, the
benchmarks of Western civilisation".
Habermas is a blatant fucking liar.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
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| User: "Glorious Guardian of Good" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist supports Ratzinger crusade against secularism |
22 Sep 2006 02:28:03 PM |
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Rick wrote:
http://www.cathnews.com/news/411/131.php
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has enlisted in his defence of Christianity
against secular Europe, the German philosopher Jürgen Habermas, who said in
an essay published this month that "Christianity, and nothing else, is the
ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights, and democracy, the
benchmarks of Western civilisation".
...
- Rick
*Cardinal* Ratzi? ...the hell?
(checks date of story...)
Why are you cross-posting two-year old news items, Rick?
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| User: "Rick" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist supports Ratzinger crusade against secularism |
22 Sep 2006 08:21:37 PM |
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Glorious Guardian of Good wrote in message <45143943$1_2@x-privat.org>...
Rick wrote:
http://www.cathnews.com/news/411/131.php
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has enlisted in his defence of Christianity
against secular Europe, the German philosopher Jürgen Habermas, who said
in
an essay published this month that "Christianity, and nothing else, is
the
ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights, and democracy,
the
benchmarks of Western civilisation".
...
- Rick
*Cardinal* Ratzi? ...the hell?
(checks date of story...)
Why are you cross-posting two-year old news items,
It was just one item...singular.
Rick?
I got it from:
http://sodsbrood.com/antimani/2006/09/21/the-ultimate-foundation-of-liberty-
conscience-human-rights-and-democracy/
....via:
http://jesuspolitics.typepad.com/jesus_politics/2006/09/the_antimanicha.html
Perhaps you could ask David Wentzel, The Anti-Manichaeist. Don't you think
it's relevant to current events? And I hope you're well read enough to have
seen the latest from Sam Harris:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-harris18sep18,0,1897169.story?coll
=la-opinion-rightrail
Speaking of two-year old news items, do you recall the recent big splash
about Greg Boyd, the megachurch pastor who lost 1,000 members for
criticising conservative politics? The events described in the New York
Times happened over two years ago. Goodstein never mentions that, and at one
point refers to the 4,000 members left behind...the church has actually
grown back pretty close to its original size.
http://tinyurl.com/gvrfu
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/us/30pastor.html?ei=5070&en=95c53c97f780ba
32&ex=1159070400&pagewanted=print
To bring this full circle, Boyd was one of Wentzel's professors at Bethel.
BTW, next time someone brings up the Crusades in the usual "The Christians
Are Terrorists Too" squabble, should I mention that news is over two years
old?
Any more questions?
- Rick
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| User: "Bill Bonde Anyone for tennis, wouldnt that be" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist supports Ratzinger crusade against secularism |
22 Sep 2006 02:55:16 PM |
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Glorious Guardian of Good wrote:
Rick wrote:
http://www.cathnews.com/news/411/131.php
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has enlisted in his defence of Christianity
against secular Europe, the German philosopher Jürgen Habermas, who said in
an essay published this month that "Christianity, and nothing else, is the
ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights, and democracy, the
benchmarks of Western civilisation".
...
- Rick
*Cardinal* Ratzi? ...the hell?
(checks date of story...)
Why are you cross-posting two-year old news items, Rick?
Maybe he just found it. The guy is now the Pope, so it might be a good
idea to read some of his earlier stuff.
--
"You know I have ninety four percent recall of all conversations?"
"Ninety four percent?"
"I've tested myself.", Philip Seymour Hoffman, 'Capote'
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist supports Ratzinger crusade against secularism |
22 Sep 2006 04:40:16 PM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, Glorious Guardian of Good poured
fuel on the fire with the following:
Rick wrote:
http://www.cathnews.com/news/411/131.php
....
*Cardinal* Ratzi? ...the hell?
(checks date of story...)
Why are you cross-posting two-year old news items, Rick?
< chuckle! >
Support for christianity is becoming an increasingly rare and precious
commodity which must be cherished wherever it is to be found.
As stated in the article, Habermas was "enchanted by the seriousness and
consistency of the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas, the opposite of the
feeble thinking that pervades current theology. ... That contemporary
religious leadership lacks an equally solid terrain seems to me an
incontrovertible truth."
It is interesting that the Zinger would draw support from someone who
makes such a criticism. But it is known that the Zinger is himself
dissatisfied with contemporary thinking in the church. Perhaps he wants
to move the church more in line with the thinking of the Dark Ages. His
recent case of foot in mouth disease is just one such indication.
Regards,
Josef
If you eat sausage you are better off not knowing the inner workings of
sausage factories, and if you are a Christian, that of the Christian
church.
-- Rev. Donald Morgan
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: Atheist supports Ratzinger crusade against secularism |
22 Sep 2006 04:10:33 AM |
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Rick wrote:
http://www.cathnews.com/news/411/131.php
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has enlisted in his defence of Christianity
against secular Europe, the German philosopher Jürgen Habermas, who said in
an essay published this month that "Christianity, and nothing else, is the
ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights, and democracy, the
benchmarks of Western civilisation".
...
Crazy.
Christianity is a great religion to throw off. Any country that used to
be Christian and now is not as religious as it was is civilized.
I am in favour of Christianity in the same way I am in favour of the End
Permian Mass Extinction, the Roman Empire, the Black Death and the
Industrial Revolution. I am glad these things happened but more
importantly I glad they happened in my past and not my present.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
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