| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"LmiO www.mantra.com/jai Dr. Jai Maharaj" |
| Date: |
09 Jan 2006 06:25:39 PM |
| Object: |
ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
Atheists and Their Fathers
By Kerby Anderson
www.probe.org
2002
How does one become an atheist? Does a person's
relationship with his earthly father affect his
relationship with his heavenly Father? These are some of
the questions we will explore in this article as we talk
about the book Faith of the Fatherless by Paul Vitz. Vitz
is a psychologist who was an atheist himself until his
late thirties. He began to wonder if psychology played a
role in one's belief about God. After all, secular
psychologists have been saying that a belief in God is
really nothing more than infantile wish fulfillment. Dr.
Vitz wondered if the shoe was on the other foot. Could it
be that atheists are engaged in unconscious wish
fulfillment?
After studying the lives of more than a dozen of the
world's most influential atheists, Dr. Vitz discovered
that they all had one thing in common: defective
relationships with their fathers. The relationship was
defective because the father was either dead, abusive,
weak, or had abandoned the children. When he studied the
lives of influential theists during those same historical
time periods, he found they enjoyed a strong, loving
relationship with a father (or a father substitute if the
father was dead).
For example, Friedrich Nietzche lost his father (who was
a pastor) before his fifth birthday. One biographer wrote
that Nietzche was "passionately attached to his father,
and the shock of losing him was profound." Dr. Vitz
writes that Nietzche had a "strong, intellectually macho
reaction against a dead, very Christian father."
Friedrich Nietzche is best known as the philosopher who
said, "God is dead." It certainly seems possible that his
rejection of God and Christianity was a "rejection of the
weakness of his father."
Contrast Nietzche with the life of Blaise Pascal. This
famous mathematician and religious writer lived at a time
in Paris when there was considerable skepticism about
religion. He nevertheless wrote Les pensées (Thoughts), a
powerful and imaginative defense of Christianity, which
also attacked skepticism. Pascal's father, Etienne, was a
wealthy judge and also an able mathematician. He was
known as a good man with religious convictions. Pascal's
mother died when he was three, so his father gave up his
law practice and home-schooled Blaise and his sisters.
Here we are going to look at the correlation between our
relationship with our earthly father and our heavenly
Father. No matter what our family background, we are
still responsible for the choices we make. Growing up in
an unloving home does not excuse us from rejecting God,
but it does explain why some people reject God. There may
be a psychological component to their commitment to
atheism.
Nietzche and Freud
Friedrich Nietzche is a philosopher who has influenced
everyone from Adolph Hitler to the Columbine killers. His
father was a Lutheran pastor who died of a brain disease
before Nietzche's fifth birthday. He often spoke
positively of his father and said his death was a great
loss, which he never forgot. One biographer wrote that
Nietzche was "passionately attached to his father, and
the shock of losing him was profound." It seems he
associated the general weakness and sickness of his
father with his father's Christianity. Nietzche's major
criticism of Christianity was that it suffers from an
absence, even a rejection, of "life force." The God
Nietzche chose was Dionysius, a strong pagan expression
of life force. It certainly seems possible that his
rejection of God and Christianity was a "rejection of the
weakness of his father."
Nietzche's own philosophy placed an emphasis on the
"superman" along with a denigration of women. Yet his own
search for masculinity was undermined by the domination
of his childhood by his mother and female relatives in a
Christian household. Dr. Vitz says, "It is not
surprising, then, that for Nietzche Christian morality
was something for women." He concludes that Nietzche had
a "strong, intellectually macho reaction against a dead,
very Christian father who was loved and admired but
perceived as sickly and weak."
Sigmund Freud despised his Jewish father, who was a weak
man unable to support his family. Freud later wrote in
two letters that his father was a sexual pervert, and
that the children suffered as a result. Dr. Vitz believes
that Freud's Oedipus Complex (which placed hatred of the
father at the center of his psychology) was an expression
of "his strong unconscious hostility to and rejection of
his own father." His father was involved in a form of
reformed Judaism but was also a weak, passive man with
sexual perversions. Freud's rejection of God and Judaism
seems connected to his rejection of his father.
Both Nietzche and Freud demonstrate the relationship
between our attitudes toward our earthly father and our
heavenly Father. In both cases, there seems to be a
psychological component to their commitment to atheism.
Russell and Hume
Bertrand Russell was one of the most famous atheists of
the last century. Both of Russell's parents lived on the
margin of radical politics. His father died when Bertrand
Russell was four years old, and his mother died two years
earlier. He was subsequently cared for by his rigidly
puritanical grandmother, who was known as "Deadly
Nightshade." She was by birth a Scottish Presbyterian,
and by temperament a puritan. Russell's daughter
Katherine noted that his grandmother's joyless faith was
"the only form of Christianity my father knew well." This
ascetic faith taught that "the life of this world was no
more than a gloomy testing ground for future bliss." She
concluded, "My father threw this morbid belief out the
window."
Dr. Vitz points out that Russell's only other parent
figures were a string of nannies to whom he often grew
quite attached. When one of the nannies left, the eleven-
year-old Bertrand was "inconsolable." He soon discovered
that the way out of his sadness was to retreat into the
world of books.
After his early years of lost loves and later years of
solitary living at home with tutors, Russell described
himself in this way: "My most profound feelings have
remained always solitary and have found in human things
no companionship . . . . The sea, the stars, the night
wind in waste places, mean more to me than even the human
beings I love best, and I am conscious that human
affection is to me at bottom an attempt to escape from
the vain search for God."
Another famous atheist was David Hume. He was born into a
prominent and affluent family. He seems to have been on
good terms with his mother as well as his brother and
sister. He was raised as a Scottish Presbyterian but gave
up his faith and devoted most of his writing to the topic
of religion.
Like the other atheists we have discussed, David Hume
fits the pattern. His father died when he was two years
old. Biographies of his life mention no relatives or
family friends who could serve as father-figures. And
David Hume is known as a man who had no religious beliefs
and spent his life raising skeptical arguments against
religion in any form.
Both Russell and Hume demonstrate the relationship
between our attitudes toward our earthly father and our
heavenly Father. In each case, there is a psychological
component to their commitment to atheism.
Sartre, Voltaire, and Feuerbach
Jean-Paul Sartre was one of the most famous atheists of
the last century. His father died when he was fifteen
months old. He and his mother lived with his maternal
grandparents as his mother cultivated a very intimate
relationship with him. She concentrated her emotional
energy on her son until she remarried when Sartre was
twelve. This idyllic and Oedipal involvement came to an
end, and Sartre strongly rejected his stepfather. In
those formative years, Sartre's real father died, his
grandfather was cool and distant, and his stepfather took
his beloved mother away from him. The adolescent Sartre
concluded to himself, "You know what? God doesn't exist."
Commentators note that Sartre obsessed with fatherhood
all his life and never got over his fatherlessness. Dr.
Vitz concludes that "his father's absence was such a
painful reality that Jean-Paul spent a lifetime trying to
deny the loss and build a philosophy in which the absence
of a father and of God is the very starting place for the
good or authentic life."
Another philosopher during the French Enlightenment
disliked his father so much that he changed his name from
Arouet to Voltaire. The two fought constantly. At one
point Voltaire's father was so angry with his son for his
interest in the world of letters rather than taking up a
career in law that he "authorized having his son sent to
prison or into exile in the West Indies." Voltaire was
not a true atheist, but rather a deist who believed in an
impersonal God. He was a strident critic of religion,
especially Christianity with its understanding of a
personal God.
Ludwig Feuerbach was a prominent German atheist who was
born into a distinguished and gifted German family. His
father was a prominent jurist who was difficult and
undiplomatic with colleagues and family. The dramatic
event in young Ludwig's life must have been his father's
affair with the wife of one his father's friends. They
lived together openly in another town, and she bore him a
son. The affair began when Feuerbach was nine and lasted
for nine years. His father publicly rejected his family,
and years later Feuerbach rejected Christianity. One
famous critic of religion said that Feuerbach was so
hostile to Christianity that he would have been called
the Antichrist if the world had ended then.
Each of these men once again illustrates the relationship
between atheism and their fathers.
Burke and Wilberforce
British statesman Edmund Burke is considered by many as
the founder of modern conservative political thought. He
was partly raised by his grandfather and three
affectionate uncles. He later wrote of his Uncle Garret,
that he was "one of the very best men, I believe that
ever lived, of the clearest integrity, the most genuine
principles of religion and virtue." His writings are in
direct opposition to the radical principles of the French
Revolution. One of his major criticisms of the French
Revolution was its hostility to religion: "We are not
converts of Rousseau; we are not the disciples of
Voltaire; Helevetius has made no progress amongst us.
Atheists are not our preachers." For Burke, God and
religion were important pillars of a just and civil
society.
William Wilberforce was an English statesman and
abolitionist. His father died when he was nine years old,
and he was sent to live with his aunt and uncle. He was
extremely close to his uncle and to John Newton who was a
frequent visitor to their home. Newton was a former slave
trader who converted to Christ and wrote the famous hymn
"Amazing Grace." Wilberforce first heard of the evils of
slavery from Newton's stories and sermons, "even
reverencing him as a parent when [he] was a child."
Wilberforce was an evangelical Christian who went on to
serve in parliament and was instrumental in abolishing
the British slave trade.
As mentioned earlier, Blaise Pascal was a famous
mathematician and religious writer. Pascal's father was a
wealthy judge and also an able mathematician, known as a
good man with religious convictions. Pascal's mother died
when he was three, so his father gave up his law practice
and home-schooled Blaise and his sisters. Pascal went on
to powerfully present a Christian perspective at a time
when there was considerable skepticism about religion in
France.
I believe Paul Vitz provides an important look at
atheists and theists in his book Faith of the Fatherless.
The prominent atheists of the last few centuries all had
defective relationships with their fathers while the
theists enjoyed a strong, loving relationship with a
father or a father substitute. This might be something to
compassionately consider the next time you witness to an
atheist.
http://www.probe.org/docs/atheists.html
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Posted on 4/17/2005 3:15:50 PM by Tailgunner Joe
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-To: Tailgunner Joe
interesting article
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:17:21 PM by 1FASTGLOCK45
(FreeRepublic: More fun than watching Dem'Rats drown
like Turkeys in the rain! ! !)
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-To: Tailgunner Joe
I don't believe in atheists. I think they simply reject,
vice don't believe. The burden is on them to prove
otherwise. Or do they just want me to accept it on faith?
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:25:10 PM by SampleMan
("Yes I am drunk, very drunk. But you madam are ugly,
and tomorrow morning I shall be sober." WSC)
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-To: Tailgunner Joe
"How does one become an atheist?"
Either vaginally or by c-section ;^)
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:27:43 PM by elfman2
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-To: SampleMan
"The burden is on them to prove otherwise. "
Then it's your burden to disprove every religion you
don't believe in.
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:29:39 PM by elfman2
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-To: SampleMan
I don't believe in atheists. I think they simply
reject, vice don't believe. The burden is on them to
prove otherwise.
Actually, it's more difficult to prove a negative,
therefore the burden of proof should be on the faithful.
But please don't bother me, I've already chosen a deity.
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:31:21 PM by Wormwood
(Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!)
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-To: Tailgunner Joe
I don't buy it. I had a great relationship with my dad
growing up and (despite his infuriating adherence to the
Democrats and their ilk) I still do.
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:31:38 PM by Zeroisanumber
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-To: Tailgunner Joe
Any thought on Darwin? Anyone?
He fits this category as well as Voltaire but I
understand his father was largely responsible for much of
his theories on evolution. Without a doubt Darwin is THE
patron saint of atheists. I have not heard about the
nature of their relationship but his father's theories
clearly influenced his work.
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:33:58 PM by Mark in the Old South
(Sister Lucia of Fatima pray for us)
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-To: Tailgunner Joe
I believe most athiests are of the "doubting Thomas"
types. If they cannot touch, smell and taste something,
it must not exist. I personally think it is a lack of
faith that causes most athiests to not believe in God.
Can any of us prove beyond a shadow of doubt that God
exists? I know I can't. But there are enough signs around
me, tangeable and intangeable, and my faith allows me to
believe that he does in fact exist. And for me that's
enough.
The easiest way to put an athiest on the defensive is to
tell them "if you live your life as if there's no God,
you better hope you're correct"
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:34:24 PM by stm
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-To: Wormwood
Ever get a chance to see this?
http://esr.ibiblio.org/index.php?p=135
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:34:58 PM by Zeroisanumber
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-To: elfman2
snicker. They're "born that way," just like queers.
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:35:08 PM by Tailgunner Joe
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-To: elfman2
Then it's your burden to disprove every religion you
don't believe in.
Not really. Its their burden to prove theirs is actually
connected to God. 2 religions Judism and Christianity
are. The rest are not.
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:36:19 PM by Bommer
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-To: Mark in the Old South
"Without a doubt Darwin is THE patron saint of
atheists."
I couldn't care less about him. He's about as relevant to
my life as Orville Wright.
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:36:44 PM by elfman2
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-To: Zeroisanumber
Ever get a chance to see this? See it?
It was my Windows background for months. ;-)
Hail Cthulhu (but at least I ain't no stinkin' athiest,
right?)
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:37:23 PM by Wormwood
(Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!)
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-To: Tailgunner Joe
Note George Soro's is on this list!
THE ATHEIST AND THE MATERIALIST
those who have no need for gods and some who have no need
for the supernatural
Forrest J. Ackerman
Phillip Adams
Brandy Alexandre
Woody Allen
Shulamit Aloni
Thomas J. Altizer
Natalie Angier
Liv Arnesen
Madison Arnold
Peter William Atkins
Russell Baker
Iain M. Banks
Clive Barker
Dan Barker
MC Paul Barman
Dave Barry
Richard Bartle
Steve Benson
Ingmar Bergman
Björk
Bill Blass
Jim Bohanan
Sir Herman Bondi
Pierre Boulez
T. Coraghessan Boyle
Nathaniel Branden
Marlon Brando
Richard Branson
Rodney Brooks
Andrew Brown
Peter Buck
Warren Buffett
John Byrne
Dean Cameron
George Carlin
John Carmack
Adam Carolla
John Carpenter
Asia Carrera
Fidel Castro
***** Cavett
Stephen Chapman
Vic Chesnutt
Noam Chomsky
Mohammed Choukri
Chumbawamba
Paul and Patricia Churchland
Alexander Cockburn
John Conway
Alex Cox
Francis Crick
David Cronenberg
David Cross
Alan Cumming
Justin Currie
Ron Dakron
Julia Darling
William B. Davis
Richard Dawkins
Daniel Dennett
David Deutsch
Ani DiFranco
Micky Dolenz
Amanda Donohoe
Roddy Doyle
Paul Draper
Patrick Duffy
Dean Edell
Paul Edwards
Greg Egan
Barbara Ehrenreich
Paul Ehrlich
Albert Ellis
Warren Ellis
Harlan Ellison
Garth Ennis
Brian Eno
Diane Farr
David Feherty
Jules Feiffer
Larry Fessenden
Harvey Fierstein
Nuno Filipe
Filter
Bob Fingerman
Antony Flew
Larry Flynt
Dario Fo
Dave Foley
James Forman
Jodie Foster
John Fowles
Robin Lane Fox
Kinky Friedman
Janeane Garofalo
Bill Gates
Bob Geldof
Jack Germond
Ira Glass
Jean Luc Godard
Al Goldstein
Nadine Gordimer
Greg Graffin
Spalding Gray
Seth Green
Stephen Greenblatt
Rachel Griffiths
Joe Haldeman
Alan Hale
Kathleen Hanna
Harry Harrison
Nina Hartley
Roy Hattersley
James A. Haught
Bill Hayden
Judith Hayes
Nat Hentoff
Katharine Hepburn
Paul Hester
Christopher Hitchens
General Choi Hong-Hi
Nicholas Humphrey
Derek Humphry
Stephan Jenkins
Penn Jillette
Angelina Jolie
Neil Jordan
Joachim Kahl
Jonathan Katz
Kawaljeet Kaur
Ludovic Kennedy
Margot Kidder
Florence King
Neil Kinnock
W. P. Kinsella
Michael Kinsley
Melvin Konner
Frank Kozik
Kramer
Paul Krassner
Milan Kundera
Paul Kurtz
Ring Lardner Jr.
Mr. Lavanam
Richard Leakey
Alexander I. Lebed
Tom Lehrer
Mike Leigh
Stanislaw Lem
Gerda Lerner
Michael Lewis
Tom Leykis
John Lydon
John Malkovich
Barry Manilow
Shirley Manson
Michael Martin
Nick Mason
John McCarthy
Malachy McCourt
Ian McEwan
Todd McFarlane
Montana McGlynn
Sir Ian McKellen
Alexander McQueen
Jonathan Meades
Antonio Mendoza
Tom Metzger
Arthur Miller
Mike Mills
Marvin Minsky
Warren Mitchell
Momus
John Money
Hans Moravec
Max More
Henry Morgentaler
Desmond Morris
James Morrow
John Mortimer
Frank Mullen
Taslima Nasrin
Ramendra Nath
Ted Nelson
Randy Newman
Mike Nichols
Jack Nicholson
Kai Nielsen
Oscar Niemeyer
Robert Nozick
Gary Numan
Ronald Numbers
Bob Odenkirk
Camille Paglia
Andy Partridge
Robert Patrick
Mark Pauline
Leonard Peikoff
Paul Pfalzner
Julia Phillips
Ferdinand Piech
Katha Pollitt
Paula Poundstone
Vladimir Pozner
Terry Pratchett
Paul Provenza
Ted Rall
James Randi
Ron Reagan Jr.
Christopher Reeve
Rick Reynolds
Griff Rhys-Jones
Mordecai Richler
Matt Ridley
Brian Ritchie
Brad Roberts
Chris Robinson
Neil Rogers
Richard Rorty
Arundhati Roy
Jane Rule
Salman Rushdie
Mona Sahlin
Sebastião Salgado
Robert Sapolsky
José Saramago
Pamela Sargent
John Sayles
Eugenie Scott
Captain Sensible
Nick Seymour
Robert I. Sherman
Michael Shermer
Claude Simon
Slayer
J.J.C. Smart
George H. Smith
Robert Smith
Lee Smolin
Steven Soderbergh
Ed Sorel
Annika Sörenstam
George Soros
Richard Stallman
Peter Steele
Bruce Sterling
Howard Stern
J. Michael Straczynski
Ken Stringfellow
Donald Sutherland
Julia Sweeney
Matthew Sweet
Teller
Studs Terkel
Tool
Linus Torvalds
Ted Turner
Eddie Vedder
Gore Vidal
Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
Sarah Vowell
Matt Wagner
Annika Walter
James Watson
Steven Weinberg
Joss Whedon
Harland Williams
Ian Wilmut
Lewis Wolpert
Steve Wozniak
Bruce Wright
Zarkov
Nick Zedd
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:37:48 PM by Beth528
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-To: Tailgunner Joe
Wonder if this will get some howling from certain
individuals on FR.
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:38:49 PM by Tench_Coxe
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-To: elfman2
I didn't ask you if you cared about him, I don't care
about him, but he pokes a hole in this balloon. I suspect
the article is largely true but perhaps it paints with
too broad a brush.
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:42:01 PM by Mark in the Old South
(Sister Lucia of Fatima pray for us)
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-To: Tailgunner Joe
"snicker. They're "born that way," just like queers."
Fortunately most Christian aren't so unhappy with
themselves that they have to slander others to get
through the day.
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:43:31 PM by elfman2
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-To: Tench_Coxe
You can count on it.
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:43:50 PM by anniegetyourgun
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-To: 1FASTGLOCK45
"interesting article."
I'll second that. I've just sent it around to about 100
friends on my email list, but it's so profound, extensive
(exhaustive!) and so complete that it leaves little room
for commentary. The writer has pretty much covered the
topic.
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:45:25 PM by CHARLITE
(I lost my car keys.....and now I have to walk
everywhere...)
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-To: Bommer
"Not really."
You're right. I was just illustrating one absurd claim
with another.
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:46:02 PM by elfman2
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-To: elfman2
I was only kidding. I don't really think queers are "born
that way" either. I believe in free will, not biological
determinism.
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:47:41 PM by Tailgunner Joe
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-To: 1FASTGLOCK45
good article -thanks.
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:49:46 PM by silverleaf
(Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY
ride.)
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-To: xzins
Ping. Oh, how critical this factor is...as the original
design was intended. Without it, the unpardonable sin
breaks through. (Mal. 4:5-6)
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:49:48 PM by anniegetyourgun
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-To: Tailgunner Joe
No problem.
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:50:51 PM by elfman2
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-To: Beth528
How did they qualify for inclusion on the list?
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:51:17 PM by Sam Cree
(Democrats are herd animals)
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-To: SampleMan
"I don't believe in atheists."
I don't really believe in them either.
Posted on 4/17/2005 3:56:35 PM by jocon307
(Irish grandmother rolls in grave, yet again!)
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-To: Bommer
Are you saying that Hindus and Muslims don't believe in
God?
Posted on 4/17/2005 4:00:50 PM by pa mom
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-To: Sam Cree
http://www.celebatheists.com/
Posted on 4/17/2005 4:03:04 PM by Beth528
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-To: SampleMan
I don't believe in atheists. I think they simply
reject, vice don't believe. The burden is on them to
prove otherwise. Or do they just want me to accept it
on faith?
I've have some serious contact with a few and it's only
my opinion, but it's all being a fear based, knee
jerker... combined with some need to be a Jesus, him, or
her, self, and lead us all into the promised waste lands
of how scared he or she is. ... and "I'll take everyone
to that dark hole I can, so long as I don't have to go
alone" ... thinking.
No logical arguement, no science, no grasp of the obvious
evidence stinging you in the face. Some, I believe, are
ridiculous to make others step up. All their choice. The
rules have been made... the top has been spun... choose
wisely.
Posted on 4/17/2005 4:03:07 PM by USCG SimTech
(Honored to serve since '71)
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-To: pa mom
Hindus are big on gods....lots and lots of 'em.....
Posted on 4/17/2005 4:03:14 PM by anniegetyourgun
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-To: anniegetyourgun
I think there is one God who revealed himself by
different means to different groups. After all, we are
all created in his image. It's not like Hindus have
multiple arms! (Oh yeah, well, their statues do!)
Posted on 4/17/2005 4:08:56 PM by pa mom
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End of forwarded messages from:
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1385620/posts
Jai Maharaj
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The terrorist mission of Jesus stated in the Christian bible:
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peace, but a sword.
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the
daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in
law.
"And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
- Matthew 10:34-36.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
09 Jan 2006 07:42:50 PM |
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<usenet@mantra.com LmiO www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj)> wrote in
message news:20060109TuUdO6090UzWLI@LmiO...
Atheists and Their Fathers
By Kerby Anderson
www.probe.org
2002
How does one become an atheist?
Everyone's born an atheist. Some of us are lucky enough to remain so.
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Science doesn't burn people at the stake for disagreeing - Vic Sagerquist
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
10 Jan 2006 08:35:48 AM |
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"Dr. Jai Maharaj" wrote:
Atheists and Their Fathers
By Kerby Anderson
www.probe.org
2002
How does one become an atheist?
In my case, it was reading the Bible and trying to understand it using reason and
logic. Next question?
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking,
which leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy."
- Robert Anton Wilson
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
10 Jan 2006 11:20:36 AM |
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Gregory Gadow wrote:
"Dr. Jai Maharaj" wrote:
How does one become an atheist?
In my case, it was reading the Bible and trying to understand it using reason and
logic.
.... which induced disbelief in the Biblical God?
Next question?
Whence the disbelief in all gods? (The Biblical God is only one of
innumerable gods that people have had)
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
10 Jan 2006 02:24:15 PM |
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"ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com" wrote:
Gregory Gadow wrote:
"Dr. Jai Maharaj" wrote:
How does one become an atheist?
In my case, it was reading the Bible and trying to understand it using reason and
logic.
... which induced disbelief in the Biblical God?
My spiritual path has taken me mainly through Christian territories, but I spent some
years as a Wiccan and explored to some degree Buddhism, Asetru and Judaism. While it
was my study of the Christian religion and the Bible that led me to non-belief, those
same conclusions were equally valid for all other deities, including the Great Mother
and Freyr, and most spiritual beliefs such as reincarnation.
Next question?
Whence the disbelief in all gods? (The Biblical God is only one of
innumerable gods that people have had)
Culture, mainly. I was raised a Christian, had spent most of my life as a Christian
(more or less) and, at the time I began seriously questioning and evaluating,
considering a path that would have led to ordination in the Episcopal Church of the
United States. But as I said, the conclusions, once reached, were too solid not to
apply them further.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking,
which leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy."
- Robert Anton Wilson
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| User: "Sanitys little helper" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
10 Jan 2006 12:17:32 PM |
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On 10 Jan 2006 09:20:36 -0800, wrote:
Gregory Gadow wrote:
"Dr. Jai Maharaj" wrote:
How does one become an atheist?
In my case, it was reading the Bible and trying to understand it using reason and
logic.
... which induced disbelief in the Biblical God?
Next question?
Whence the disbelief in all gods? (The Biblical God is only one of
innumerable gods that people have had)
Yes. The Biblical god is a perfect illustration of how preposterous the
idea of any deity is.
--
D Silverman FLAHN, SMLAHN
AA #2208, HB #6
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
10 Jan 2006 02:31:29 PM |
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Sanity's little helper wrote:
ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com wrote:
Gregory Gadow wrote:
"Dr. Jai Maharaj" wrote:
How does one become an atheist?
In my case, it was reading the Bible and trying to understand it using reason and
logic.
Whence the disbelief in all gods? (The Biblical God is only one of
innumerable gods that people have had)
Yes. The Biblical god is a perfect illustration of how preposterous the
idea of any deity is.
So, why did Voltaire, Paine, etc. become deists rather than atheists.
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
10 Jan 2006 03:36:34 PM |
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"ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com" wrote:
Sanity's little helper wrote:
ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com wrote:
Gregory Gadow wrote:
"Dr. Jai Maharaj" wrote:
How does one become an atheist?
In my case, it was reading the Bible and trying to understand it using reason and
logic.
Whence the disbelief in all gods? (The Biblical God is only one of
innumerable gods that people have had)
Yes. The Biblical god is a perfect illustration of how preposterous the
idea of any deity is.
So, why did Voltaire, Paine, etc. become deists rather than atheists.
The difference between a deist -- God exists, but because He will not interfere with
existence, there is absolutely nothing that can be done or claimed to prove that He exists
-- and a strong atheist -- there is/are no God/gods -- is vanishingly small and fits
comfortably in a "I will continue to believe against all logic and reason" sized space.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking,
which leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy."
- Robert Anton Wilson
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
10 Jan 2006 04:14:02 PM |
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Gregory Gadow wrote:
"ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com" wrote:
Sanity's little helper wrote:
ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com wrote:
Gregory Gadow wrote:
"Dr. Jai Maharaj" wrote:
How does one become an atheist?
In my case, it was reading the Bible and trying to understand it using reason and
logic.
Whence the disbelief in all gods? (The Biblical God is only one of
innumerable gods that people have had)
Yes. The Biblical god is a perfect illustration of how preposterous the
idea of any deity is.
So, why did Voltaire, Paine, etc. become deists rather than atheists.
The difference between a deist -- God exists, but because He will not interfere with
existence, there is absolutely nothing that can be done or claimed to prove that He exists
-- and a strong atheist -- there is/are no God/gods -- is vanishingly small and fits
comfortably in a "I will continue to believe against all logic and reason" sized space.
Voltaire called himself a "Theist" by which he meant what we mean by
"Deist": His definition of a "Theist" follows:
http://history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/111vol.html
THEIST
[1] THE theist is a man firmly persuaded of the existence of a Supreme
Being as good as He is powerful, who has formed all beings with
extension, vegetating, sentient and reflecting; who perpetuates their
species, who punishes crimes without cruelty, and rewards virtuous
actions with kindness.
[2] The theist does not know how God punishes, how he protects, how he
pardons, for he is not reckless enough to flatter himself that he knows
how God acts, but he knows that God acts and that He is just.
Difficulties against Providence do not shake him in his faith, because
they are merely great difficulties, and not proofs. He submits to this
Providence, although he perceives but a few effects and a few signs of
this Providence: and, judging of the things he does not see by the
things he sees, he considers that this Providence reaches all places
and all centuries.
[3] Reconciled in this principle with the rest of the universe, he does
not embrace any of the sects, all of which contradict each other; his
religion is the most ancient and the most widespread; for the simple
worship of a God has preceded all the systems of the world. He speaks a
language that all peoples understand, while they do not understand one
another. He has brothers from Pekin to Cayenne, and he counts all wise
men as his brethren. He believes that religion does not consist either
in the opinions of an unintelligible metaphysic, or in vain display,
but in worship and justice. The doing of good, there is his service;
being submissive to God, there is his doctrine. The Mahometan cries to
him--" Have a care if you do not make the pilgrimage to Mecca !" " Woe
unto you," says a Recollet, " if you do not make a journey to
Notre-Dame de Lorette! "He laughs at Lorette and at Mecca; but he
succours the needy and defends the oppressed.
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| User: "Sanitys little helper" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
10 Jan 2006 06:22:24 PM |
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On 10 Jan 2006 12:31:29 -0800, wrote:
Sanity's little helper wrote:
wrote:
Gregory Gadow wrote:
"Dr. Jai Maharaj" wrote:
How does one become an atheist?
In my case, it was reading the Bible and trying to understand it using reason and
logic.
Whence the disbelief in all gods? (The Biblical God is only one of
innumerable gods that people have had)
Yes. The Biblical god is a perfect illustration of how preposterous the
idea of any deity is.
So, why did Voltaire, Paine, etc. become deists rather than atheists.
I don't know, and I don't care. I can take personal responsibility for what
I believe.
--
D Silverman FLAHN, SMLAHN
AA #2208, HB #6
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| User: "eyelessgame" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
10 Jan 2006 06:46:53 PM |
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Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
Atheists and Their Fathers
By Kerby Anderson
www.probe.org
2002
After studying the lives of more than a dozen of the
world's most influential atheists, Dr. Vitz discovered
that they all had one thing in common: defective
relationships with their fathers. The relationship was
defective because the father was either dead, abusive,
weak, or had abandoned the children.
Not that he'd be interested in any counterexamples -- these sorts of
apologists for faith seldom are -- but my father was a caring man with
whom I enjoyed a strong relationship; he lived till I was thirty and a
father myself; he was neither abusive nor weak, and was present and
faithfully married to my mother to the day he died.
I was raised Catholic -- my mother's faith -- but as an adult I'm an
atheist, as my father was.
*His* father -- my grandfather -- was a Salvation Army minister, and,
like him, a wonderful man. The only friction between them appeared to
be -- understandably -- the religion issue.
Of course, you should forget the misses and only remember the hits.
Doing otherwise would be bad for the dogma that atheists must hate
their fathers.
eyelessgame
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
09 Jan 2006 06:34:04 PM |
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Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
Atheists and Their Fathers
By Kerby Anderson
www.probe.org
2002
How does one become an atheist? Does a person's
relationship with his earthly father affect his
relationship with his heavenly Father? These are some of
the questions we will explore in this article as we talk
about the book Faith of the Fatherless by Paul Vitz.
It's crap - don't bother.
Mark.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
09 Jan 2006 07:16:27 PM |
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Richo wrote:
Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
Atheists and Their Fathers
By Kerby Anderson
www.probe.org
2002
How does one become an atheist? Does a person's
relationship with his earthly father affect his
relationship with his heavenly Father? These are some of
the questions we will explore in this article as we talk
about the book Faith of the Fatherless by Paul Vitz.
It's crap - don't bother.
Mark.
I'll take your word about it being c**p. Evidently, he argues that
ALL of a dozen influential atheists had uncomfortable relations with
their fathers. However, the reviewer does not tell us how many
atheist-biographies he rejected because they did not support his
hypothesis. Maybe he says more about this in his book, but I would
not believe any such statement by him because -- well, I presume that
my reason is obvious.
However, the funny part is, whether he notices this point or not, if
his evidence actually were correct, it would only help to confirm the
view that (I presume) he wants to refute-namely that people become
theists because they wish to attach themselves to their father-images.
Actually, being an admirer of Freud, I would be at all surprised if it
turned out that this was statistically right.
In any case, I don't plan to read the book, because of a deep,
unconscious wish to protect my mind from bad influences. But if anyone
who reads this also looks at the original text, I like to hear how many
biographies he elected to reject.
In the early 90s, I had dinner with Mortimer Adler, who had once been a
hero of mine. I was disappointed when he mentioned that he had
converted to Catholic. I asked him why, but he only replied, "I don't
think that you would understand." I felt better after hearing this; it
showed that he still retained at least a bit of his previous wisdom.
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
09 Jan 2006 09:33:56 PM |
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wrote:
Richo wrote:
Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
Atheists and Their Fathers
By Kerby Anderson
www.probe.org
2002
How does one become an atheist? Does a person's
relationship with his earthly father affect his
relationship with his heavenly Father? These are some of
the questions we will explore in this article as we talk
about the book Faith of the Fatherless by Paul Vitz.
It's crap - don't bother.
Mark.
I'll take your word about it being c**p.
It has been refuted in detail many times - I lack the energy to do so
again.
It appears in alt atheism about once a fortnight for at least 5 years.
"Argumentum ad nauseum" - post it until your opponents die of the
tedium.
Evidently, he argues that
ALL of a dozen influential atheists had uncomfortable relations with
their fathers. However, the reviewer does not tell us how many
atheist-biographies he rejected because they did not support his
hypothesis.
Well spoted.
Maybe he says more about this in his book, but I would
not believe any such statement by him because -- well, I presume that
my reason is obvious.
However, the funny part is, whether he notices this point or not, if
his evidence actually were correct, it would only help to confirm the
view that (I presume) he wants to refute-namely that people become
theists because they wish to attach themselves to their father-images.
Actually, being an admirer of Freud, I would be at all surprised if it
turned out that this was statistically right.
I doubt he has the wit to notice this little problem.
8-)
Mark.
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| User: "BDK" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
10 Jan 2006 12:56:55 AM |
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In article <20060109TuUdO6090UzWLI@LmiO>, says...
Atheists and Their Fathers
By Kerby Anderson
www.probe.org
2002
How does one become an atheist? Does a person's
relationship with his earthly father affect his
relationship with his heavenly Father?
Snipped a whole lotta previously reposted BS...
Nothing more really needs to be said..
BDK
Who got along fine with his Dad..
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
10 Jan 2006 09:23:24 PM |
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On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:25:39 GMT, LmiO
www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote in alt.atheism
Atheists and Their Fathers
By Kerby Anderson
www.probe.org
2002
How does one become an atheist?
Courage, education, honesty, and thought. Traits you've only dream
about.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
10 Jan 2006 10:01:04 PM |
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stoney wrote:
www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote in alt.atheism
How does one become an atheist?
Courage, education, honesty, and thought. Traits you've only dream
about.
Does he betray any sign of having even dreamt about these?
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| User: "Steve Knight" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
09 Jan 2006 08:19:31 PM |
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On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:25:39 GMT, LmiO
www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote:
How does one become an atheist?
By thinking.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
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| User: "satyr" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
10 Jan 2006 12:39:54 AM |
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On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:25:39 GMT, LmiO
www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote:
I believe Paul Vitz provides an important look at
atheists and theists in his book Faith of the Fatherless.
The prominent atheists of the last few centuries all had
defective relationships with their fathers while the
theists enjoyed a strong, loving relationship with a
father or a father substitute. This might be something to
compassionately consider the next time you witness to an
atheist.
Famous atheist Robert G. Ingersoll's mother died when he was one year
old and he was raised to adulthood by his father, a Presbyterian
minister.
--
satyr #1953
Chairman, EAC Church Taxation Subcommittee
Director, Gideon Bible Alternative Fuel Project
Supervisor, EAC Fossil Casting Lab
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| User: "Sanitys little helper" |
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| Title: Re: ATHEISTS AND THEIR FATHERS by Kerby Anderson |
10 Jan 2006 12:15:02 PM |
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On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:25:39 GMT, Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
Atheists and Their Fathers
It's the Vitz season. Where's me 12 bore?
--
D Silverman FLAHN, SMLAHN
AA #2208, HB #6
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