Religions > Atheism > Atheists are not only excellent teachers of Buddhism...they are also excellent teachers of the principles of Christianity as well!
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"V" |
| Date: |
22 Jun 2007 12:13:05 PM |
| Object: |
Atheists are not only excellent teachers of Buddhism...they are also excellent teachers of the principles of Christianity as well! |
Someone once questioned a statement I had made:
V wrote: "I am grateful for my friends at alt.atheism. And if I
can't study Buddhism with Buddhists after they ban me from their
forums, then I study Buddhism with atheists."
They asked how I can study Buddhism this way.
Well, this is not problem at all.
A Buddhist practice in not in books or limited to any one sangha...a
successful Buddhist practice lies within our hearts.
(ooops...the atheists tell me that the heart is only a blood
pump...and they are right...so let's say the successful Buddhist
practice emanates from the fabric of our very being...but I guess the
atheists will argue we are not made of fabric either!)
Not only are the atheists excellent teachers at Buddhism, they are
also equally excellent teachers of the principles of Christianity.
Let me give you a couple of examples my atheist friends helped me
with, better than any church service I had ever attended in my prior
life when I was Catholic. The atheists were lecturing me on Charity
that day. (If you want the lesson in Buddhism then just substitute
compassion or metta for the word charitable.)
The atheists were not talking about donating money or giving food to
the poor, although such actions also fall under the title of being
charitable. The type of charity I am talking about is that of showing
simple kindness and courtesy to others.
We were discussing logic at alt.atheism and one of the participants
brought up the subject of being more charitable with kindness and
leniency when his feelings got hurt by some abusive words sent his
way.
Being charitable towards others is something we all seem to forget
when our ego gets injected into the equation, and this is especially
prone to happen on the net. When we communicate with emails we
sometimes write things we would never say in person. In addition, when
we write it uses a different part of our brain than when speaking. I
find the truth about 'who a person really is' comes out best when they
write as opposed to speaking. And to top it all off, we see no person
that we are hurting with our words, we only see a screen. If we can
slow down and review or writing for 'humility' and 'reciprocity' we
can sometimes avoid dispensing pain.
When we invest excessive time and energies in acquiring or building
attachments these attachments become veritable extensions of our being
and come to define us for ourselves as well as define who we are for
others. When these attachments take on this role we become susceptible
to pain via these extensions. If the person, place, thing or idea we
are attached to gets rebuked it is a personal rebuke on us, if they
get damaged or defaced so goes the defacement and damage to our very
being.
It is hard to become full detached to ideas, for if we did we would be
like a feather floating wherever the wind blew us and would pick up
any old idea with no firm grounding of what we perceive as right or
wrong. But, we can practice being open minded and look at ideas
without prejudice that we instinctively hit ideas with that does not
emanate from within our mind. We can take that first step in the
opposite direction that we have been heading in for so long by
learning to judge other less.
We especially do this with everyone we meet...they get categorized
with better or lesser than me type of thinking. When we limit
prejudice we can open our minds to truth and peace. And realize that
"All deities reside within the human breast," as Blake wrote and try
to show kindness and leniency towards others just as we would like it
bestowed on us by our judges.
Here is some background material on this topic of charity from the
alt.atheism discussion group.
V:
"How do you use logic to guide your life? I am not specifically
referring to logic in atheism, but logic in everyday life. Is logic
all that is needed in life? Or something else?"
J responds to V:
It's useful for thinking, not as a guide but a tool. Try thinking
without consciously or unconsciously using logic, and see if any
conclusions are justified. To deny logic is self-stultifying. A hammer
without a nail is useless. Logic without thought is useless. Nails
without a project are useless. Thoughts without a project* are
useless. * "project" in this case as used at: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/existentialism/
and other writings on existentialism.
G responds to J:
"You appear to be under the impression that the only use for a hammer
is for striking nails. And you expect everyone to follow the link and
dig through that enormous pile of crap, just to figure out what the
***** you mean? Idiot. If you want people to understand what
definition of a word you're using, there are these things called
"dictionaries"....a number of which are online, even."
J responds to G:
"Of course, analogies are never perfect. I used a hammer two days ago
to help a neighbor get his garage door realigned. Do you think I'm an
idiot? But the analogy serves, for those who are more charitable than
you. Differences of opinion need not include calling people idiots.
<plonk>"
'J' brought up an important reminder to the tool of charitable
reciprocity that we can all apply in our lives to develop inner peace.
Reciprocity of charity is welcome by almost all people. who does not
like kindness bestowed on them? Yes, there are those individuals that
are of a sick mental nature that are hell bend for destruction. But if
we look at examples of flourishing human specimens, then they do not
gravitate towards having hatred and ill will being dished up to them.
When the subject turns to reciprocity, I am reminded of a religious
discussion I attended a few years ago where the group was composed of
a wide spectrum of theist to atheist. The atheists were lecturing on
prejudice and the golden rule that day. When the subject turned
towards morals and ethics, one atheist said he ran his life by the
golden rule. A theist piped up that the golden rule came from the
bible, which made the atheist wince. The atheist seemed to take pride
in his self sufficiency and did not like to run his life by anything
that came out of the bible. When another atheist said the concept of
golden rule came from an earlier source than the bible, then atheist
was relieved.
This was a good reminder to me to examine where my guiding light
resides?
Is it ego based or truth based?
When the guiding light of this atheist was not grounded in the bible
he was happy. But when it came from an area that he did not like, he
was upset. How can the same material be used to build a palace by one
man, yet only build a hovel for another?
By one spiritual practitioner seeing truth and applying it to live a
life at peace. And the other person only seeing prejudice and problems
and doing nothing.
Every religion was made by man and as such every religion is imperfect
as it is run by man. Despite these imperfections, each religion also
has many "perfection's" within it as well. We can still be open to
peace generating tools from any of the religions and spiritual
traditions that are available to us if we are serious about being at
peace. This requires us to run our life by truth and not by prejudice.
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: "Therefore, whatever you want
men to do to you, do also to them" (Matthew 7:12). Nowadays this verse
is commonly referred to as "The Golden Rule," and is more commonly
quoted as: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Here
are some of the earliest sources for this concept of reciprocity
~1970-1640 BCE "Do for one who may do for you, / That you may cause
him thus to do." - The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant 109-110, Ancient
Egypt, tr. R.B. Parkinson.
* ~700 BCE "That nature only is good when it shall not do unto another
whatever is not good for its own self." - Dadistan-i-Dinik 94:5,
Zoroastrianism.
* ? BCE "Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others."
- Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29, Zoroastrianism.
* ~550 BCE "You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your
countrymen. Love your fellow as yourself: I am the LORD." - Tanakh,
new JPS translation, Leviticus 19:18, Judaism.
* ~500 BCE "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find
hurtful." - Udana-Varga 5:18, Buddhism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity
Now, whether you believe in God or believe in Jesus or are an atheist
or Buddhist does this wisdom not apply to you? This truth is universal
in nature as it is based not on being of a certain religion, other
than that of the religion of humanity. In this case, you can adopt a
peace generating tool and apply it to your life irrespective of your
religious beliefs or lack thereof. I had to chuckle one time when an
atheists argued that the golden rule is not perfect, so he said he
does not follow it. When I questioned him about what he does follow as
well as the state of perfection that applied to his life, all he could
do was reply with ad hominem attacks.
If we are waiting for perfection when it comes to spiritual studies we
will always be disappointed. Before applying perfection to anything
outside of us, we should examine the perfection within us. The nature
of humans is that of imperfection, so we must always look towards
direction and forget perfection. I heard a story one time in a Yoga
lecture that illustrates this point. "Range is of the ego - Form is of
the soul." The only thing we need to be concerned with is how is our
form when it comes to our spiritual practice and our life.
Regarding the golden rule? It is more perfect than imperfect, so it is
a most useful tool to live a life at peace by. And when we combine it
with other tools such as universality, natural law, contrast the
greater good with the greater right, etc the synergistic effect is
close to perfection as humans can get with this subject. But it takes
some thinking and one will not see it without an open mind.
Wisdom for living a life at peace is all around us for the taking. I
have no trouble at all studying Christian or Buddhist concepts
wherever I find myself...even when the audience is 100% atheists. Many
of us get blinded with labels and personal prejudices. Whenever we
take it upon ourselves to beat down, we are headed in a direction of
destroying peace. We destroy our own peace as well as others peace. As
such, I practice from many religious and spiritual traditions without
problems or prejudices and readily look for such gifts irrespective of
what label they come under - on the contrary I am most grateful
wherever I find them. If I am not able to use a concept, I leave it
alone, but do not spend my time or energies to beat others down. Do we
like to be beaten down?
I saw some paintings in a Japanese museum that showed a cousin of the
Buddha being of great power and to show his strength he went up to a
baby elephant and pushed it down to the ground. A second painting
showed the Buddha helping this baby elephant back up to his feet and
the Buddha lifted the elephant high up over his head and said, "It is
much better to uplift - than to tear down." Whether this is a true
story or not I do not know. But we can all benefit from uplifting
rather than destroying.
I see this predisposition to destruction many times in responses I
receive from my posts. The critiques offer much in the line of 'no
goods' but they seldom do they offer any substantive tools to finding
peace. Maybe I do not have it '100% right' but I have it 'right
enough' to be able to be at peace if I apply these principles. If I
waited for perfection, I would never act. I use the tools at hand.
Aristotle ~ "It is the mark of an educated mind to rest satisfied with
the degree of precision which the nature of the subject admits and not
to seek exactness where only an approximation is possible."
This being able to 'rest satisfied' is something the perfectionists
lack and why they will never be at peace until they stop collecting
concepts and start using the concepts of peace generations. The
atheist I mentioned above demonstrated this with his blanket dismissal
of the golden rule since it is not 100% perfect. He could offer no
substitutes for the golden rule, all he could do was succumb to
personal attacks on me.
We can examine our writing to see what useful tools for finding peace
we offer to others it also says a lot about our own practice of
generating inner peace. When you practice peace promotion with others
you will reap inner peace promotion. When you practice destroying
others peace, you will reap self destruction of inner peace.
We should always he interested in finding truth and peace. If our way
is not working then some other way may help. It is good to test and
see the results. The bible reminds us of this "Test everything; hold
fast to what is good; abstain from every form of evil," (1 Thess.
5:21) Even if you are an atheist, this concept of testing can be of
help to you. For with such tests, 'the proof of the pudding will be in
the eating' and decisions on how to live will not be left only to your
ego, but will be grounded in peace.
What benefits do we derive by being charitable to others?
As James Allen writes...when we hurt others we also hurt ourselves.
"Every thought seed sown or allowed to fall into the mind, and to take
root there, produces its own, blossoming sooner or later into act, and
bearing its own fruitage of opportunity and circumstance. Good
thoughts bear good fruit, bad thoughts bad fruit....Good thoughts and
actions can never produce bad results. Bad thoughts and actions can
never produce good results. This is but saying that nothing can come
from corn but corn, nothing from nettles but nettles. Men understand
this law in the natural world, and work with it. But few understand it
in the mental and moral world."
When you practice peace promotion with others you will reap inner
peace promotion...when you practice destroying others peace, you will
reap self destruction of inner peace...nothing can come from corn but
corn, nothing from nettles but nettles.
I hope you make it a point to practice charity in your life by not
forgetting to be charitable to others as you would appreciate charity
being bestowed on you.
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists are not only excellent teachers of Buddhism...they are also excellent teachers of the principles of Christianity as well! |
22 Jun 2007 07:00:52 PM |
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On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:13:05 -0700, V <vfr44@aol.com> wrote:
Someone once questioned a statement I had made:
Imagine that!
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists are not only excellent teachers of Buddhism...they arealso excellent teachers of the principles of Christianity as well! |
22 Jun 2007 12:20:12 PM |
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On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:13:05 -0700, V wrote:
Someone once questioned a statement I had made:
But tons of people question your sanity every day.
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys
on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING
like Shakespeare!" - Blair Houghton
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists are not only excellent teachers of Buddhism...they are also excellent teachers of the principles of Christianity as well! |
22 Jun 2007 06:35:04 PM |
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On Jun 22, 1:20?pm, "Mark K. Bilbo" <g...@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:13:05 -0700, V wrote:
Someone once questioned a statement I had made:
But tons of people question your sanity every day.
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys
on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING
like Shakespeare!" - Blair Houghton
That is just fine Mark.
I thank you and others for their concern for my wellbeing.
As I told you we are all our brothers keepers to a degree.
And we are all entitled to our own opinions as well.
When the subject turns opinions I recall Clint Eastwood's famous line
in one of his Dirty Harry series:
"Opinions are like assholes...everyone's got one."
The trouble is when 'opinions' start killing others in the name of
God. Or in the atheist case, when their ego dictates it sans God.
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists are not only excellent teachers of Buddhism...they arealso excellent teachers of the principles of Christianity as well! |
23 Jun 2007 07:38:57 AM |
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On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:35:04 -0700, V wrote:
On Jun 22, 1:20?pm, "Mark K. Bilbo" <g...@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:13:05 -0700, V wrote:
Someone once questioned a statement I had made:
But tons of people question your sanity every day.
That is just fine Mark.
Not when it's damn near universal.
I thank you and others for their concern for my wellbeing.
As I told you we are all our brothers keepers to a degree.
So your version is to ***** on atheists all day.
And we are all entitled to our own opinions as well.
When the subject turns opinions I recall Clint Eastwood's famous line in
one of his Dirty Harry series:
"Opinions are like assholes...everyone's got one."
The trouble is when 'opinions' start killing others in the name of God.
Or in the atheist case, when their ego dictates it sans God.
More insults from Mister Peace hisownsealf.
Get fucked you vile little man.
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"Warned you we tried! Listen you did not! Now screwed
we will all be!"
http://www.sequentialpictures.com/moviestarwarsepisode3.html
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| User: "Bill M" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists are not only excellent teachers of Buddhism...they are also excellent teachers of the principles of Christianity as well! |
23 Jun 2007 01:05:06 PM |
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"V" has a poorly functioning brain.
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
news:K46dnZo4vrj8ieDbnZ2dnUVZ_rDinZ2d@giganews.com...
On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:35:04 -0700, V wrote:
On Jun 22, 1:20?pm, "Mark K. Bilbo" <g...@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:13:05 -0700, V wrote:
Someone once questioned a statement I had made:
But tons of people question your sanity every day.
That is just fine Mark.
Not when it's damn near universal.
I thank you and others for their concern for my wellbeing.
As I told you we are all our brothers keepers to a degree.
So your version is to ***** on atheists all day.
And we are all entitled to our own opinions as well.
When the subject turns opinions I recall Clint Eastwood's famous line in
one of his Dirty Harry series:
"Opinions are like assholes...everyone's got one."
The trouble is when 'opinions' start killing others in the name of God.
Or in the atheist case, when their ego dictates it sans God.
More insults from Mister Peace hisownsealf.
Get fucked you vile little man.
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"Warned you we tried! Listen you did not! Now screwed
we will all be!"
http://www.sequentialpictures.com/moviestarwarsepisode3.html
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists are not only excellent teachers of Buddhism...they arealso excellent teachers of the principles of Christianity as well! |
23 Jun 2007 03:17:33 PM |
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On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 14:05:06 -0400, Bill M wrote:
"V" has a poorly functioning brain.
V has a brain?
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys
on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING
like Shakespeare!" - Blair Houghton
.
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| User: "bushhelpscorporationsdestroyamerica" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists are not only excellent teachers of Buddhism...they are also excellent teachers of the principles of Christianity as well! |
23 Jun 2007 03:21:07 PM |
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On Jun 23, 1:17 pm, "Mark K. Bilbo" <g...@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 14:05:06 -0400, Bill M wrote:
"V" has a poorly functioning brain.
V has a brain?
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys
on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING
like Shakespeare!" - Blair Houghton
v sucks jesus ***** in hell and mark dido likes jesus ***** too
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| User: "Reverend Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists are not only excellent teachers of Buddhism...they are also excellent teachers of the principles of Christianity as well! |
24 Jun 2007 09:54:57 PM |
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V <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in
news:1182532385.315163.195320@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
Someone once questioned a statement I had made:
V wrote: "I am grateful for my friends at alt.atheism. And if I
can't study Buddhism with Buddhists after they ban me from their
forums, then I study Buddhism with atheists."
They asked how I can study Buddhism this way.
Well, this is not problem at all.
A Buddhist practice in not in books or limited to any one sangha...a
successful Buddhist practice lies within our hearts.
Nah, it lies within right effort, right mindfulness and right
concentration.
Being charitable towards others is something we all seem to forget
when our ego gets injected into the equation, and this is especially
prone to happen on the net. When we communicate with emails we
sometimes write things we would never say in person. In addition, when
we write it uses a different part of our brain than when speaking. I
find the truth about 'who a person really is' comes out best when they
write as opposed to speaking. And to top it all off, we see no person
that we are hurting with our words, we only see a screen. If we can
slow down and review or writing for 'humility' and 'reciprocity' we
can sometimes avoid dispensing pain.
Funny you should bring up the word "ego". Your posts all reek of you
flaunting yours. And speaking of charity, wouldn't it be charitable of
you to stop posting to alt.atheism?
When we invest excessive time and energies in acquiring or building
attachments these attachments become veritable extensions of our being
and come to define us for ourselves as well as define who we are for
others. When these attachments take on this role we become susceptible
to pain via these extensions. If the person, place, thing or idea we
are attached to gets rebuked it is a personal rebuke on us, if they
get damaged or defaced so goes the defacement and damage to our very
being.
Like for example your attachment to posting to alt.atheism even though
you are aware that it causes suffering for those who read.
*snip*
--
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm
not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein
Remove pants to email me.
http://www.apatheticagnostic.com/
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http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists are not only excellent teachers of Buddhism...they are also excellent teachers of the principles of Christianity as well! |
02 Jul 2007 10:50:38 AM |
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On Jun 24, 10:54?pm, Reverend Dave <reverend_d...@ministerpants.com>
wrote:
V <v...@aol.com> wrote innews:1182532385.315163.195320@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
Someone once questioned a statement I had made:
V wrote: "I am grateful for my friends at alt.atheism. And if I
can't study Buddhism with Buddhists after they ban me from their
forums, then I study Buddhism with atheists."
They asked how I can study Buddhism this way.
Well, this is not problem at all.
A Buddhist practice in not in books or limited to any one sangha...a
successful Buddhist practice lies within our hearts.
Nah, it lies within right effort, right mindfulness and right
concentration.
Being charitable towards others is something we all seem to forget
when our ego gets injected into the equation, and this is especially
prone to happen on the net. When we communicate with emails we
sometimes write things we would never say in person. In addition, when
we write it uses a different part of our brain than when speaking. I
find the truth about 'who a person really is' comes out best when they
write as opposed to speaking. And to top it all off, we see no person
that we are hurting with our words, we only see a screen. If we can
slow down and review or writing for 'humility' and 'reciprocity' we
can sometimes avoid dispensing pain.
Funny you should bring up the word "ego". Your posts all reek of you
flaunting yours. And speaking of charity, wouldn't it be charitable of
you to stop posting to alt.atheism?
When we invest excessive time and energies in acquiring or building
attachments these attachments become veritable extensions of our being
and come to define us for ourselves as well as define who we are for
others. When these attachments take on this role we become susceptible
to pain via these extensions. If the person, place, thing or idea we
are attached to gets rebuked it is a personal rebuke on us, if they
get damaged or defaced so goes the defacement and damage to our very
being.
Like for example your attachment to posting to alt.atheism even though
you are aware that it causes suffering for those who read.
*snip*
--
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm
not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein
Remove pants to email me.
http://www.apatheticagnostic.com/
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----http://www.newsfeeds.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Spiritual growth is like first aid...it sometimes causes pain to heal
Reverend Dave.
All quotes are from alt.atheism
V wrote:
"I am grateful for my friends at alt.atheism. And if I can't study
Buddhism with Buddhists after they ban me from their forums, then I
study Buddhism with atheists." One atheist asked how I can study
Buddhism this way? Well, this is not problem at all. A Buddhist
practice in not in books or limited to any one sangha...a successful
Buddhist practice lies within our hearts.
Reverend Dave:
Nah, (Buddhism) lies within right effort, right mindfulness and right
concentration. Funny you (V) should bring up the word "ego". Your
posts all reek of you flaunting yours. And speaking of charity,
wouldn't it be charitable of you to stop posting to alt.atheism? Like
for example your attachment to posting to alt.atheism even though you
are aware that it causes suffering for those who read.
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
V:
Thank you for your reply Reverend Dave, I appreciate your comments. I
am eager to answer your questions as well as comment on your
'simplified approach' to Buddhism. And I hope after reading this my
posts 'will reek a little less' and not be so offensive to you.
In your reply you claim I cause people suffering from asking if they
would like some medicine or if they would like their wounds cleaned or
would like a splinter removed from their foot?
I am sorry if such questions cause people suffering. It is not my
intention to hurt others by having my own opinion and offering help to
the needy.
I argue with no one. If I have the truth, I keep it and use it and
share it. If you do not want it that is OK, I make no demands you
adopt it. If I am wrong and you have the truth I adopt it readily and
now I have the truth as well. Wherever the truth is - that is where I
go.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=532.0
We all know there are a wide range of people and mental conditions
that make up society. Some of these people would not be happy unless I
was dead. So, instead of trying to please personalties - we can be
much better off if we just try to please truth. This is where the sage
advice of 'principles before personalties' comes in handy Reverend
Dave. That way we can leave our egos checked at the door and we all
both have a right to exist in peace.
I'm afraid you are confusing right effort with overblown ego Reverend
Dave. I am never dogmatic about anything I write. I always give others
the right to exist as they wish.
But I do offer some tools for them to get better...but again only if
they wish.
That is not ego my friend...it is humanity.
Are we not put on this earth to try and help each other Reverend Dave?
Isn't that why you went into the ministry, to offer comfort and
spiritual guidance to mankind?
No?
Then are we put here to hurt, injure and kill each other Reverend
Dave?
Now, no one can force another to offer help. Nor can any agree on how
much or how little help to offer if one does in fact offer help.
In trying to balance the approach to helping others, I find 'the
golden rule' a good place to start.
See:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/125b41aa8fd2b87b/cf400bdf88ba1701?lnk=gst&q=conundrum&rnum=7&hl=en#cf400bdf88ba1701
Humans are one of the few species that has to be persuaded to not self-
destruct. All other species work towards the flourishing of their
species...unless they come under the control of humans. Then the
animals start to self-destruct as well.
I'd say you are right as well as wrong in your evaluation of my
efforts at causing others suffering.
But this pain is a good one as they are growth pains to bring about a
new life.
Spiritual growth is like first aid...it sometimes causes pain to heal
Reverend Dave.
But I wonder what sort of 'reverend' you are, for any monastic or
preacher worth his salt would not need to be lectured on such basics
of the spiritual life.
They know 'the spiritual journey is as walking on a razor's edge' as
the Upanishads remind us.
Let me give you an example we all can relate to.
When you take drugs away from an addict or alcohol away from an
alcoholic, it does cause suffering in the beginning. But once they
detox from drugs, alcohol (or hatred in the spiritually sick atheist's
case) they loose the old drug based delusional state of mind that once
ruled them and are now open to a new life based on inner peace.
For further discussion of the mind manacled atheist see:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=509.0
In addition, I force my posts on no one Reverend Dave. I am an
ordinary member at alt.atheism and am free to post as I please. Others
are free to respond as they please. And the only decision others have
about my posts is whether to read them and reply or not? "With the
same material one man builds a palace and another only a hovel."
Russell Cromwell.
The parable of the arrow can also be a help to you Reverend Dave with
pointing you in the right direction.
See:
http://www.csis.hku.hk/~bruce/water75.html
And for others that already seem to posses all the knowledge they
need, they can just skip over my posts without any problem. I do no
damage by asking if they are thirsty.
What I do with the multitude of posts that I come across that offer me
little in the area of peace promotion?
I just go onto the next post and leave it in peace.
I suggest you and others do the same and do not let your peace be
disturbed by what anyone writes.
I can tell you I don't.
See my post on justified anger and releasing it Reverend Dave:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=613.0
Sure tearing others down appeals to one's ego and pride, but so did
torturing insects when we were kids Reverend Dave. When we grow up we
need a different way to find self worth.
As you instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds
and water these seeds within you as well.
As you give so you receive.
Is that from the bible or karma?
No, it is just universal law Reverend Dave.
Do we like to be beaten down?
Whenever we take it upon ourselves to beat down others, we are headed
in a direction of destroying peace. We destroy our own peace as well
as others peace. It takes no energy from me to pass something by and
leave it alone in peace. But it takes my energy as well as my peace to
pick something up to destroy it.
When I posted this paragraph earlier Reverend Dave, an atheist piped
to accuse me of hypocrisy, telling me that I destroy a potato when I
pick it up to eat it.
Natural law dictates I must eat, but there is no law that says I must
spew venom from my mouth to destroy others.
If atheists can get over fishing for red herrings and get onto bigger
fish to fry they will see a world of difference in their peace
practice Reverend Dave.
The destruction of inner peace by destroying potatoes comes about when
I destroy my neighbors crop field of potatoes by poisoning them to
bankrupt him in order to take over his farmland...it does not come
about by eating a potato.
The God of Nature gives me potatoes to eat, the God of inner Peace
tells me to not eat potatoes in excess or to destroy others if I wish
to be at peace. I cannot see either God, I know not how they work, I
just know they are.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=342.0
If you have trouble with your own ego demanding you control others
Reverend Dave, remember no one says we have to be the humblest think
on this earth. The only question is did we 'make an effort to be
humble today' if we wish to be truth based and at peace?
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=529.0
I heard a story one time in a Yoga lecture that illustrates this point
of our direction with humility reverend. "Range is of the ego - Form
is of the soul." The only thing we need to be concerned with is how is
our form when it comes to our practice Reverend Dave.
Drawing from secular humanism as well as theist based spiritual
traditions I do ask if other humans I come into contact with would
like a drink and if they are thirsty if they look parched.
I would do the same for a dog, so I would offer no less for you
Reverend Dave.
Lets ask some 'H word' questions to look at our motivational
foundation Reverend Dave.
Do we 'Hurt' others out of 'Hatred' or are our actions fueled by the
need to 'Help Humanity' from our basis of 'Humility' within Reverend
Dave?
When you claim I have a big ego, you again may be confused and instead
of looking at right effort and right actions, you see nothing but
personalities here as our directions both differ.
You see in your limited use of the eightfold path you left out the
most important part of the equation...rightness of direction in our
actions as they affect others.
Funny thing happened to me Reverend Dave, as I was writing this post,
both members of my family asked me separately what I was writing.
I told them I was replying to a 'Reverend Dave' on the topic of
spiritual sickness.
They both asked the same thing - 'Is Reverend Dave a real Reverend?'
I answered them, "I don't know, since he is not one for right speech."
This is the problem Reverend Dave with the spiritually sick, mind
manacled, defiance based atheists. Sure they have plenty of right
concentration, right mindfulness and right effort...but all their
right concentration, right mindfulness and right effort are based in
hatred, lies and sickness.
When we are pointed in the WRONG DIRECTION via our Wrong Actions,
Wrong Speech, Wrong Livelihood, Wrong Intention and Wrong View we can
do great harm to others.
Socrates expressed this in Plato's Crito:
"My friend Crito, your zeal is invaluable, if a right one; but if
wrong, the greater the zeal the greater the evil..."
When you conveniently skirted over the other 5 components of the
eightfold path, you gave away your own direction and hate based agenda
Reverend Dave.
Honor dies were interest lies Reverend Dave and the interest of
atheist is the destruction of religion through their ego based
foundation of hatred and ill will.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=470.0
http://www.churcharson.com/act_now/
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/588a8ee1562bdf70/a0360253fa900f98?lnk=gst&q=finding+comic+relief&rnum=1&hl=en#a0360253fa900f98
The eightfold path is a matched set and the ONLY way it works is as a
matched set Reverend Dave.
1. Right View
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech
4. Right Action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort
7. Right Mindfulness
8. Right Concentration
Let me leave you with my discussion of a similar topic from an earlier
post.
Maybe something in it for you Reverend Dave. And if you start
practicing the 'entire eightfold path' with a goal to 'bring inner
peace to you and to all mankind,' I guarantee you will make great
progress on your spiritual journey Reverend Dave.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=4.0
If you have any further questions Reverend Dave, feel free to write me
direct at
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
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| User: "Reverend Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists are not only excellent teachers of Buddhism...they are also excellent teachers of the principles of Christianity as well! |
09 Jul 2007 12:06:18 AM |
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V <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in
news:1183391438.137384.10450@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
On Jun 24, 10:54?pm, Reverend Dave <reverend_d...@ministerpants.com>
wrote:
V <v...@aol.com> wrote
innews:1182532385.315163.195320@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
- snip -
Spiritual growth is like first aid...it sometimes causes pain to heal
Reverend Dave.
All quotes are from alt.atheism
V wrote:
"I am grateful for my friends at alt.atheism. And if I can't study
Buddhism with Buddhists after they ban me from their forums, then I
study Buddhism with atheists." One atheist asked how I can study
Buddhism this way? Well, this is not problem at all. A Buddhist
practice in not in books or limited to any one sangha...a successful
Buddhist practice lies within our hearts.
Reverend Dave:
Nah, (Buddhism) lies within right effort, right mindfulness and right
concentration. Funny you (V) should bring up the word "ego". Your
posts all reek of you flaunting yours. And speaking of charity,
wouldn't it be charitable of you to stop posting to alt.atheism? Like
for example your attachment to posting to alt.atheism even though you
are aware that it causes suffering for those who read.
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
V:
Thank you for your reply Reverend Dave, I appreciate your comments. I
am eager to answer your questions as well as comment on your
'simplified approach' to Buddhism. And I hope after reading this my
posts 'will reek a little less' and not be so offensive to you.
In your reply you claim I cause people suffering from asking if they
would like some medicine or if they would like their wounds cleaned or
would like a splinter removed from their foot?
No, I didn't claim that. This is your distortion of what I said.
I am sorry if such questions cause people suffering. It is not my
intention to hurt others by having my own opinion and offering help to
the needy.
It's only your opinion.
I argue with no one.
Some would disagree.
If I have the truth, I keep it and use it and
share it. If you do not want it that is OK, I make no demands you
adopt it. If I am wrong and you have the truth I adopt it readily and
now I have the truth as well. Wherever the truth is - that is where I
go.
So what you are saying is that the truth you hold is the truth until
someone comes along and shows you a better truth? This would in turn make
your original truth a falsehood. So how will you know when you've
attained "absolute truth"? That's quite a conundrum you've created for
yourself.
-snip-
We all know there are a wide range of people and mental conditions
that make up society. Some of these people would not be happy unless I
was dead.
Speaking of mental conditions, you do realize that imagining that "people
would not be happy unless I was dead" suggests a possible persecution
complex.
- overblown self-justification ramblings snipped -
The eightfold path is a matched set and the ONLY way it works is as a
matched set Reverend Dave.
1. Right View
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech
4. Right Action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort
7. Right Mindfulness
8. Right Concentration
If you are talking about attaining enlightenment this is true however
it's not really practical for most people to jump in and practice the
entire path all at once. Most zen teachers like to start with mindfulness
and work from there. I suppose I could get into a long drawn out
explanation of why this is so but to an expert on Buddhism such as
yourself the answer should be obvious.
Let me leave you with my discussion of a similar topic from an earlier
post.
Maybe something in it for you Reverend Dave. And if you start
practicing the 'entire eightfold path' with a goal to 'bring inner
peace to you and to all mankind,' I guarantee you will make great
progress on your spiritual journey Reverend Dave.
I can certainly see why you were banned from Buddhist groups. By and
large Buddhists don't proselytise as you do, and generally don't speak
ill of other people's actions.
Which brings us to what this is really all about - right speech. And what
exactly is right speech?
- not telling lies
- avoiding backbiting and slander, talk that may bring about hatred,
enmity disunity and disharmony among individuals or groups of people
- avoiding rude, impolite, malicious and abusive language
- avoiding idle, useless, foolish babble and gossip
It's pretty obvious from your posts that you are not really following
right speech. Your post concerning "Plumpers" (among others) suggests
idle, useless, foolish babble. In other posts you deliberately incite
people to attack you, possibly so you can feel persecuted. You attack
atheists, display your hatred for them and distort the truth about them.
You distort what other people say in your responses for your own selfish,
egotistical purposes and self-justification.
Long story short, from a Buddhist perspective you're creating bad karma
for everyone who responds to you. This in turn compounds your own bad
karma for each and every person you annoy.
As for my credentials as a minister that you seem to be so concerned
about, I was ordained by The Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic
Agnostic (we don't know and we don't care).
- snip -
--
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm
not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein
Remove pants to email me.
http://www.apatheticagnostic.com/
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