| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Another Apostate" |
| Date: |
02 Jun 2004 01:37:18 PM |
| Object: |
Atheists in prison |
Regarding studies like this:
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
This seems to indicate that we have a much lower rate of incarceration as a
percentage of the population that theists. Not that this would surprise me.
Does anyone know if these studies include atheists who had conversions to
religion while in prison or those who only profess a religious belief to
gain early parole?
--
Another Apostate
anotherapo@hotmail.com
aa #2182 EAC Director of Covert Operations and Black Helicopter Pilot
"If you are ethical only because you believe in God, you are buying your
ticket to heaven or trying to tear up your ticket to hell. In either case,
you are just being a shrewd profiteer, nothing else. The idea of being
ethical is to be ethical for no reason except that that is the way to be if
you want the world to run smoothly. I think that people who say virtue is
its own reward or honesty is the best policy have the right idea."
-Isaac Asimov
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists in prison |
02 Jun 2004 03:30:00 PM |
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"Another Apostate" <AnotherApo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:y7pvc.17844$DG4.5151@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
Regarding studies like this:
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
This seems to indicate that we have a much lower rate of incarceration as
a
percentage of the population that theists. Not that this would surprise
me.
Does anyone know if these studies include atheists who had conversions to
religion while in prison or those who only profess a religious belief to
gain early parole?
Converted? Sheesh, they prolly we're those wimpy agnostics then. ; )
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| User: "TCS" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists in prison |
02 Jun 2004 03:37:40 PM |
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"Another Apostate" <AnotherApo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:y7pvc.17844$DG4.5151@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
Regarding studies like this:
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
This seems to indicate that we have a much lower rate of incarceration as
a
percentage of the population that theists. Not that this would surprise
me.
Does anyone know if these studies include atheists who had conversions to
religion while in prison or those who only profess a religious belief to
gain early parole?
How would you be able to tell the difference?
Parole board: "You're not just telling us you're a christian to gain early
release, are you?"
Convert: "Oh no! I'd never lie about a thing like that!"
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| User: "Another Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists in prison |
02 Jun 2004 03:57:43 PM |
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"TCS" <The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> wrote in message
news:slrncbsekk.je2.The-Central-Scrutinizer@linux.client.comcast.net...
"Another Apostate" <AnotherApo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:y7pvc.17844$DG4.5151@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
Regarding studies like this:
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
This seems to indicate that we have a much lower rate of incarceration
as
a
percentage of the population that theists. Not that this would surprise
me.
Does anyone know if these studies include atheists who had conversions
to
religion while in prison or those who only profess a religious belief
to
gain early parole?
How would you be able to tell the difference?
Parole board: "You're not just telling us you're a christian to gain
early
release, are you?"
Convert: "Oh no! I'd never lie about a thing like that!"
I was hoping to find a better study to throw at those who would say that
xtians are more moral than non-believers.
Regards.
--
Another Apostate
anotherapo@hotmail.com
aa #2182 EAC Director of Covert Operations and Black Helicopter Pilot
"If you are ethical only because you believe in God, you are buying your
ticket to heaven or trying to tear up your ticket to hell. In either case,
you are just being a shrewd profiteer, nothing else. The idea of being
ethical is to be ethical for no reason except that that is the way to be if
you want the world to run smoothly. I think that people who say virtue is
its own reward or honesty is the best policy have the right idea."
-Isaac Asimov
.
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| User: "WhackAGod" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists in prison |
02 Jun 2004 04:02:52 PM |
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"Another Apostate" <AnotherApo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bbrvc.17874$DG4.16212@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
"TCS" <The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> wrote in message
news:slrncbsekk.je2.The-Central-Scrutinizer@linux.client.comcast.net...
I was hoping to find a better study to throw at those who would say that
xtians are more moral than non-believers.
I don't think there will be a better study. Getting accurate religious data
from inmates is difficult and paired with stronger correlations it seems to
be a waste of time.
Conversely, they have no data to support their conclusion either.
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| User: "Spooked " |
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| Title: Re: Atheists in prison |
02 Jun 2004 04:43:17 PM |
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"WhackAGod" <ff0011k@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote:
"Another Apostate" <AnotherApo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bbrvc.17874$DG4.16212@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
"TCS" <The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> wrote in message
news:slrncbsekk.je2.The-Central-Scrutinizer@linux.client.comcast.net...
I was hoping to find a better study to throw at those who would say that
xtians are more moral than non-believers.
I don't think there will be a better study. Getting accurate religious data
from inmates is difficult and paired with stronger correlations it seems to
be a waste of time.
Conversely, they have no data to support their conclusion either.
I have an employee. He has no educational rite. He is very
intelligent. He gives no *****. His theory: "***** 'em, three hots
and a cot, don't matter to me". There's a freedom this man enjoys and
I almost envy him.
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| User: "WhackAGod" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists in prison |
02 Jun 2004 02:44:13 PM |
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"Another Apostate" <AnotherApo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:y7pvc.17844$DG4.5151@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
Regarding studies like this:
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
This seems to indicate that we have a much lower rate of incarceration as
a
percentage of the population that theists. Not that this would surprise
me.
Does anyone know if these studies include atheists who had conversions to
religion while in prison or those who only profess a religious belief to
gain early parole?
Here is an article that discusses the prison data. It's main point it that
it is hard to draw any clear conclusion other than most religious groups are
represented in prison. The author also indicates other factors such as
education and employment correlate much better then religous viewpoint to
incarceration.
http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html
.
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| User: "Editor of EvilBible.com" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists in prison |
02 Jun 2004 05:37:52 PM |
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"WhackAGod" <ff0011k@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:h6qvc.160008$WA4.41868@twister.nyc.rr.com...
"Another Apostate" <AnotherApo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:y7pvc.17844$DG4.5151@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
Regarding studies like this:
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
This seems to indicate that we have a much lower rate of incarceration
as
a
percentage of the population that theists. Not that this would surprise
me.
Does anyone know if these studies include atheists who had conversions
to
religion while in prison or those who only profess a religious belief to
gain early parole?
Here is an article that discusses the prison data. It's main point it
that
it is hard to draw any clear conclusion other than most religious groups
are
represented in prison. The author also indicates other factors such as
education and employment correlate much better then religous viewpoint to
incarceration.
http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html
This link is a joke. No one in their right mind would group "unknown / no
response" (20% of the total) with the atheist group, or any group at all!
The page is a good example of the writings of a Christian liar. I would
think that a grade school kid would be able to spot this lie within a couple
of minutes. What's your excuse?
.
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| User: "WhackAGod" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists in prison |
02 Jun 2004 07:41:31 PM |
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"Editor of EvilBible.com" <Dont_Reply@Here.com> wrote in message
news:gLydnWdZKYBAyyPd4p2dnA@adelphia.com...
"WhackAGod" <ff0011k@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:h6qvc.160008$WA4.41868@twister.nyc.rr.com...
"Another Apostate" <AnotherApo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:y7pvc.17844$DG4.5151@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
Regarding studies like this:
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
This seems to indicate that we have a much lower rate of incarceration
as
a
percentage of the population that theists. Not that this would
surprise
me.
Does anyone know if these studies include atheists who had conversions
to
religion while in prison or those who only profess a religious belief
to
gain early parole?
Here is an article that discusses the prison data. It's main point it
that
it is hard to draw any clear conclusion other than most religious groups
are
represented in prison. The author also indicates other factors such as
education and employment correlate much better then religous viewpoint
to
incarceration.
http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html
This link is a joke. No one in their right mind would group "unknown / no
response" (20% of the total) with the atheist group, or any group at all!
The page is a good example of the writings of a Christian liar. I would
think that a grade school kid would be able to spot this lie within a
couple
of minutes. What's your excuse?
Actually, there are 3 tables in the web page, if you choose to read the
entire article. Two of them bundle atheist with unknown or other, while the
third separates atheist as its own entry. All 3 tables put the unknowns
around 20% of the total.
The main points are:
1) With 20% unknown it's difficult to make any conclusive statements whether
any group is more or less represented in prison
2) Since there are factors that correlate better with criminal behavior
(such as income) focusing on religion viewpoint is not valuable.
3) Since the prison system rewards religious behavior, responses may be what
the parole board wants to hear.
I think these 3 points make any conclusion about religion and incarceration
shaky at best.
.
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| User: "Another Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists in prison |
02 Jun 2004 08:12:50 PM |
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"WhackAGod" <ff0011k@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:%suvc.161088$WA4.17253@twister.nyc.rr.com...
"Editor of EvilBible.com" <Dont_Reply@Here.com> wrote in message
news:gLydnWdZKYBAyyPd4p2dnA@adelphia.com...
"WhackAGod" <ff0011k@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:h6qvc.160008$WA4.41868@twister.nyc.rr.com...
"Another Apostate" <AnotherApo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:y7pvc.17844$DG4.5151@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
Regarding studies like this:
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
This seems to indicate that we have a much lower rate of
incarceration
as
a
percentage of the population that theists. Not that this would
surprise
me.
Does anyone know if these studies include atheists who had
conversions
to
religion while in prison or those who only profess a religious
belief
to
gain early parole?
Here is an article that discusses the prison data. It's main point it
that
it is hard to draw any clear conclusion other than most religious
groups
are
represented in prison. The author also indicates other factors such
as
education and employment correlate much better then religous viewpoint
to
incarceration.
http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html
This link is a joke. No one in their right mind would group "unknown /
no
response" (20% of the total) with the atheist group, or any group at
all!
The page is a good example of the writings of a Christian liar. I would
think that a grade school kid would be able to spot this lie within a
couple
of minutes. What's your excuse?
Actually, there are 3 tables in the web page, if you choose to read the
entire article. Two of them bundle atheist with unknown or other, while
the
third separates atheist as its own entry. All 3 tables put the unknowns
around 20% of the total.
The main points are:
1) With 20% unknown it's difficult to make any conclusive statements
whether
any group is more or less represented in prison
2) Since there are factors that correlate better with criminal behavior
(such as income) focusing on religion viewpoint is not valuable.
3) Since the prison system rewards religious behavior, responses may be
what
the parole board wants to hear.
I think these 3 points make any conclusion about religion and
incarceration
shaky at best.
Agreed.
--
Another Apostate
anotherapo@hotmail.com
aa #2182 EAC Director of Covert Operations and Black Helicopter Pilot
"If you are ethical only because you believe in God, you are buying your
ticket to heaven or trying to tear up your ticket to hell. In either case,
you are just being a shrewd profiteer, nothing else. The idea of being
ethical is to be ethical for no reason except that that is the way to be if
you want the world to run smoothly. I think that people who say virtue is
its own reward or honesty is the best policy have the right idea."
-Isaac Asimov
.
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| User: "Editor of EvilBible.com" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists in prison |
03 Jun 2004 03:52:56 PM |
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"WhackAGod" <ff0011k@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:%suvc.161088$WA4.17253@twister.nyc.rr.com...
"Editor of EvilBible.com" <Dont_Reply@Here.com> wrote in message
news:gLydnWdZKYBAyyPd4p2dnA@adelphia.com...
"WhackAGod" <ff0011k@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:h6qvc.160008$WA4.41868@twister.nyc.rr.com...
"Another Apostate" <AnotherApo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:y7pvc.17844$DG4.5151@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
Regarding studies like this:
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
This seems to indicate that we have a much lower rate of
incarceration
as
a
percentage of the population that theists. Not that this would
surprise
me.
Does anyone know if these studies include atheists who had
conversions
to
religion while in prison or those who only profess a religious
belief
to
gain early parole?
Here is an article that discusses the prison data. It's main point it
that
it is hard to draw any clear conclusion other than most religious
groups
are
represented in prison. The author also indicates other factors such
as
education and employment correlate much better then religous viewpoint
to
incarceration.
http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html
This link is a joke. No one in their right mind would group "unknown /
no
response" (20% of the total) with the atheist group, or any group at
all!
The page is a good example of the writings of a Christian liar. I would
think that a grade school kid would be able to spot this lie within a
couple
of minutes. What's your excuse?
Actually, there are 3 tables in the web page, if you choose to read the
entire article. Two of them bundle atheist with unknown or other, while
the
third separates atheist as its own entry. All 3 tables put the unknowns
around 20% of the total.
The main points are:
1) With 20% unknown it's difficult to make any conclusive statements
whether
any group is more or less represented in prison
2) Since there are factors that correlate better with criminal behavior
(such as income) focusing on religion viewpoint is not valuable.
3) Since the prison system rewards religious behavior, responses may be
what
the parole board wants to hear.
I think these 3 points make any conclusion about religion and
incarceration
shaky at best.
I agree that it is had to draw any firm scientific conclusions from this
data. However, that does not excuse the blatant lies and deception that
occur on this page. It is absolutely inexcusable to group the "unknown / no
response" groups with atheists! (And he did it twice!) Clearly this was
done with the immoral intention of deceiving people into thinking that there
are more atheists in jail than there really are.
Another very obvious lie on that page is the claim that gays and lesbians
are more likely to be pedophiles. Let me quote from this page:
-----------------------------
"GLBT [Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transsexual] status, on the other hand,
has not been shown to correlate generally to incarceration rate, although it
is highly correlated with pedophilia. According to gay researchers Karla Jay
and Allen Young, 73 percent of the gay men they report having engaged in sex
with boys 16 to 19 years of age or younger; 86 percent of convicted child
molesters who molested boys describe themselves as homosexual or bisexual."
------------------------------
In most of the world, and most of the states in the US, it is perfectly
legal to have sex with people who are 16 or older
http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm. Somehow this simple fact is
lost on the idiot who wrote this page and describes sex with 16 to 19 year
olds as "pedophilia". I suspect that if I took a survey of heterosexual
men, I would probably get similar numbers (73%) who had sex with females
aged 16 to 19 or younger. If someone wants to do an internet search, I
would appreciate it.
The last line in the quote is even funnier. It is a well known fact that
males are much more likely to be sexual offenders than females. I think the
numbers are around 90% or more. Is it any surprise that men who were caught
having *sex with boys* described themselves as homosexual or bisexual? What
did the author of this page think they were going to say, "sorry officer I
thought that he was a girl"?
Like I always say, if you have to lie to defend your opinion, your opinion
is probably wrong. This guy lied three times on one web page. That tells
me his opinion belongs in the trashcan of stupid ideas.
.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists in prison |
03 Jun 2004 01:07:05 AM |
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Another Apostate wrote:
Regarding studies like this:
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
This seems to indicate that we have a much lower rate of incarceration as a
percentage of the population that theists. Not that this would surprise me.
Does anyone know if these studies include atheists who had conversions to
religion while in prison or those who only profess a religious belief to
gain early parole?
Aren't you confusing atheists with 'non believers' the latter being the large
bulk of people who have no time for religion, no time to discuss religion, and
walk away laughing if the subject is broached? Atheists study humanity from
both the religious and humanistic point of view and draw their locical
conclusions.
The 'non believers' in jail are just waiting to get out to go to a ball game,
get a beer and a woman!
Bob
Hong kong
"I have something to say to the religionist who feels atheists never say
anything positive: You are an intelligent human being. Your life is valuable
for its own sake. You are not second-class in the universe, deriving meaning
and purpose from some other mind. You are not inherently evil--you are
inherently human, possessing the positive rational potential to help make this
a world of morality, peace and
joy. Trust yourself."
[Dan Barker, Losing Faith in Faith]
--
Another Apostate
anotherapo@hotmail.com
aa #2182 EAC Director of Covert Operations and Black Helicopter Pilot
"If you are ethical only because you believe in God, you are buying your
ticket to heaven or trying to tear up your ticket to hell. In either case,
you are just being a shrewd profiteer, nothing else. The idea of being
ethical is to be ethical for no reason except that that is the way to be if
you want the world to run smoothly. I think that people who say virtue is
its own reward or honesty is the best policy have the right idea."
-Isaac Asimov
.
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| User: "John M Price PhD" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists in prison |
03 Jun 2004 12:39:07 PM |
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In alt.atheism article <y7pvc.17844$DG4.5151@fe2.columbus.rr.com> Another Apostate <AnotherApo@hotmail.com> wrote:
: Regarding studies like this:
: http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
: This seems to indicate that we have a much lower rate of incarceration as a
: percentage of the population that theists. Not that this would surprise me.
: Does anyone know if these studies include atheists who had conversions to
: religion while in prison or those who only profess a religious belief to
: gain early parole?
This is not a study, but rather a reporting of the findings looking only
at the data on the intake forms.
There was a discussion of this a bit ago in sppm:
SPPM1021020105508-24443@psychcentral.com
Personally, I would not use the unknown in any further analysis, dumping
it as a nonresponse. Essentially all surveys have a response failure
rate, and this one is rather low. We do not know what the unknown means
to the person, nor do we know what a no response behavior indicates. We
cannot use it.
That said, I think the data are clear, ceteris paribus. Applying these
numbers and comparing them to population statistics is probably an OK
thing to do, providing the question is pretty close. (Just how far off
can you be when you are asked what religion are you?) If dealing with a
checkbox survey, collapsing the prison data (open response) into those
categories is also possible.
Have fun with the math! (Recommended test: Chi-square) (Recommended
procedure: SPSS Crosstabs)
(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.
--
John M. Price, PhD
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
.... But as records of courts and justice are admissible, it can
easily be proved that powerful and malevolent magicians once existed
and were a scourge to mankind. The evidence (including confession)
upon which certain women were convicted of witchcraft and executed was
without a flaw; it is still unimpeachable. The judges' decisions based
on it were sound in logic and in law. Nothing in any existing court
was ever more thoroughly proved than the charges of witchcraft and
sorcery for which so many suffered death. If there were no witches,
human testimony and human reason are alike destitute of value.
-- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
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| User: "W. Syme" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists in prison |
03 Jun 2004 03:36:48 AM |
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On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 18:37:18 GMT, "Another Apostate"
<AnotherApo@hotmail.com> wrote:
This seems to indicate that we have a much lower rate of incarceration as a
percentage of the population that theists. Not that this would surprise me.
That surprises you? Didn't you know that atheism increases together
with education?
--
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
W. Syme (pseudonym), European, non-native English speaker, "soft" atheist.
Email will not be read.
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| User: "Another Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: Atheists in prison |
03 Jun 2004 09:21:54 AM |
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"W. Syme" <Winston.Syme.superstitions@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:4abbf3322251ec6046468b0c6979a43c@news.1usenet.com...
On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 18:37:18 GMT, "Another Apostate"
<AnotherApo@hotmail.com> wrote:
This seems to indicate that we have a much lower rate of incarceration as
a
percentage of the population that theists. Not that this would surprise
me.
That surprises you? Didn't you know that atheism increases together
with education?
I think you misunderstood. I does not surprise me at all. The more I studied
science and critical thinking, the less I believed in god. The eventual
outcome for me was atheism.
Regards.
--
Another Apostate
anotherapo@hotmail.com
aa #2182 EAC Director of Covert Operations and Black Helicopter Pilot
"If you are ethical only because you believe in God, you are buying your
ticket to heaven or trying to tear up your ticket to hell. In either case,
you are just being a shrewd profiteer, nothing else. The idea of being
ethical is to be ethical for no reason except that that is the way to be if
you want the world to run smoothly. I think that people who say virtue is
its own reward or honesty is the best policy have the right idea."
-Isaac Asimov
.
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