| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"david ford" |
| Date: |
05 Aug 2004 07:32:15 AM |
| Object: |
Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
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| User: "Fatman" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
05 Aug 2004 10:49:50 AM |
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"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.0408050441.69e92e12@posting.google.com...
Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
So, this article says they were essentially breaking the law. Aren't
Christians supposed to obey authority?
Christian churches are allowed in China, but have to obey the law. Are
Protestant Christians above the law?
Fatman.
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
05 Aug 2004 12:51:17 PM |
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Użytkownik "Fatman" <me@privacy.net> napisał w wiadomości
news:2nf3qaF8mkkU1@uni-berlin.de...
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.0408050441.69e92e12@posting.google.com...
Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
So, this article says they were essentially breaking the law. Aren't
Christians supposed to obey authority?
Christian churches are allowed in China, but have to obey the law. Are
Protestant Christians above the law?
Fatman.
china ought to obey the law, in terms of the universal declaration of human
rights.
especially the bit where it says:
? ? ? ?
1.. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
2.. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
?, ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
if you are happy with china's human rights record (I think it was called 'wo
mei wong chi ni wong chi wo') then you can always go live there.
best,
djj
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| User: "Fatman" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
05 Aug 2004 01:51:59 PM |
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"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:cetsjq$ve3$0@pita.alt.net...
Użytkownik "Fatman" <me@privacy.net> napisał w wiadomości
news:2nf3qaF8mkkU1@uni-berlin.de...
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.0408050441.69e92e12@posting.google.com...
Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
So, this article says they were essentially breaking the law. Aren't
Christians supposed to obey authority?
Christian churches are allowed in China, but have to obey the law. Are
Protestant Christians above the law?
Fatman.
china ought to obey the law, in terms of the universal declaration of
human
rights.
especially the bit where it says:
? ? ? ?
1.. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
2.. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
?
?, ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
if you are happy with china's human rights record (I think it was called
'wo
mei wong chi ni wong chi wo') then you can always go live there.
best,
djj
I fail to see how my statement implies my endorsement of human rights
violations by the Chinese Government. The church leaders were not arrested
simply because they were church leaders, as the headline would imply.
To quote from the article:
"The U.S.-based persecution monitor said the "co-workers meeting" was held
to train and encourage Christian workers in China's western frontier
province, the home of the mostly Muslim Uighur people." (note mention of
large Muslim population)
Which was followed shortly by:
"In China, it is illegal to cross a provincial border to hold religious
meetings without approval from the Religious Affairs Bureau and the
state-sponsored Three-Self Patriotic Movement church." (note mention of law
broken)
and yet again:
"The Chinese government considers all Protestant churches outside the
official government-controlled Three-Self Patriotic Movement to be
subversive." (note unsanctioned group going into a region with very
different religious views can be seen as subversive.)
Christians constantly break out their bibles and quote from it as guide on
how they should act. I was just pointing out there is a passage about
obeying authority (Romans 13:1-7 for you bible readers) which was clearly
ignored.
Fatman
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
06 Aug 2004 06:09:32 AM |
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Użytkownik "Fatman" <me@privacy.net> napisał w wiadomości
news:2nfefqFd5hiU1@uni-berlin.de...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:cetsjq$ve3$0@pita.alt.net...
Christians constantly break out their bibles and quote from it as guide on
how they should act. I was just pointing out there is a passage about
obeying authority (Romans 13:1-7 for you bible readers) which was clearly
ignored.
Fatman
what we have to remember is that authority is authority, but comes in at
different levels.
as long as a lower authority co-operates with the higher authority, the the
man at the bottom has no conflict of interest.
to take a non-religious analogy, when you are at work you are given a boss
ans you know that your boss also has a boss, and maybe he also has a boss,
which might be the shareholders or the public interest.
as long as your boss and everyone along the chain of authority are not
working against what the ultimate boss, the shareholders and the public
interest want, and as long as your boss isn't working against what his boss
wants, then you don't have a conflict of interest.
when your boss makes you do something, howvwer, that you know his boss
wouldn't want, or his boss does agree but you know it's not what the
shareholders would agree to, etc, then you have a conflict of interest.
what does common loyalty demand in thiese circumstances?
the eastern system and the feudalist system say 'my boss is my boss. his
boss is not my boss, therefore i do not pull rank on my boss and i just do
what he asks me to do'. the western system says, no, you don't do that, you
whistle blow.
the loyalty of every person is to the end recipient of loyalty, namely the
shareholders and the public interest, and our loyalty to the intermediate
recipient of loyalty is conditional on his loyalty to the ultimate recipient
of loyalty, in our system.
and i would say that this is a quite good analogy for how to behave when
national governments vary from the ordinances of god. we are loyal to the
national leader as long as he himself is loyal to god. i for example am not
a socialist, but as long as tony blair is prime minister of my first country
and alexander kwasniewski is president of my adopted country and they rule
by conscience trying to do what is right in the sight of god, they both have
my loyalty and i would not think of practicising civil disobedience
vis-a-vis the uk or poland.
it would be different if these people had sought to prevent the bible being
distributed, for instance. if they did that then i would not hesitate to do
the same sort of smuggling of bibles into these places as i did into the
soviet union during communism.
best,
djj
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| User: "Fatman" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
06 Aug 2004 11:23:51 AM |
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"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:cevpek$3v0$0@pita.alt.net...
Użytkownik "Fatman" <me@privacy.net> napisał w wiadomości
news:2nfefqFd5hiU1@uni-berlin.de...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:cetsjq$ve3$0@pita.alt.net...
what we have to remember is that authority is authority, but comes in at
different levels.
But the bible claims authority is divinely granted.
as long as a lower authority co-operates with the higher authority, the
the
man at the bottom has no conflict of interest.
So far, the article doesn't show a conflict with "upper management" if one
is to claim the Christian god is such. There were two options the clergy
could have taken. The first is to go through proper channels and either be
granted or denied permission (an option apparently not taken).
The second, openly violate the "law of the land" without even trying to do
it the proper way. They chose the less honorable way. Would the Christian
god condone this action? (especially if that god views Protestants as
heretics and Catholics as the "true" faith?)
to take a non-religious analogy, when you are at work you are given a boss
ans you know that your boss also has a boss, and maybe he also has a boss,
which might be the shareholders or the public interest.
as long as your boss and everyone along the chain of authority are not
working against what the ultimate boss, the shareholders and the public
interest want, and as long as your boss isn't working against what his
boss
wants, then you don't have a conflict of interest.
when your boss makes you do something, howvwer, that you know his boss
wouldn't want, or his boss does agree but you know it's not what the
shareholders would agree to, etc, then you have a conflict of interest.
what does common loyalty demand in thiese circumstances?
Depends on the severity of the demand based on your value system. The same
could also be argued in reverse. You could view your direct boss going
against the wishes of the higher(est) boss, yet you feel (s)he is right.
Where do your loyalties go there? I know Christians are under the assumption
their god in infallible, but you see many instances of Christians morphing
their god to suit their own personal adjenda. If they did not, then you
wouldn't have all the various branches of the same religion. All of them
claiming to be doing "God's will on Earth".
the eastern system and the feudalist system say 'my boss is my boss. his
boss is not my boss, therefore i do not pull rank on my boss and i just do
what he asks me to do'. the western system says, no, you don't do that,
you
whistle blow.
the loyalty of every person is to the end recipient of loyalty, namely the
shareholders and the public interest, and our loyalty to the intermediate
recipient of loyalty is conditional on his loyalty to the ultimate
recipient
of loyalty, in our system.
and i would say that this is a quite good analogy for how to behave when
national governments vary from the ordinances of god. we are loyal to the
national leader as long as he himself is loyal to god. i for example am
not
a socialist, but as long as tony blair is prime minister of my first
country
and alexander kwasniewski is president of my adopted country and they rule
by conscience trying to do what is right in the sight of god, they both
have
my loyalty and i would not think of practicising civil disobedience
vis-a-vis the uk or poland.
Aren't revolutions against monarchy in violation to God's will? Can you say
the French and American revolutions were because the crown was acting
ungodly? How about the 30 years war, was that justifyable? Wasn't the
countries involved Christian monarchies? Why would the Christian god say "
it would be different if these people had sought to prevent the bible
being
distributed, for instance.
That would be a different topic of discussion.
if they did that then i would not hesitate to do
the same sort of smuggling of bibles into these places as i did into the
soviet union during communism.
And you would be in violation of the law in that land. If you knowingly
violate those laws and accept the risks involved, should you be heralded as
a victim when caught? The unfortunate reality is that we as humans grant
each other "human rights" based on a sliding scale that evolves with the
culture. Some systems view the common man as a faceless worker bee. Others
view other races or cultures as sub-human. Some strive to treat all with
high value and worth. Each feels they are in the best interest of that
society (or ruler).
best,
djj
My original point was merely to point out how victimless the original
poster's champions were. That also can be viewed on sliding scale depending
on each persons individual point of view.
Sorry for all the noise in various other newsgroups other than alt.atheism
(my primary one). I usually respond to the thread un-trimmed in hopes to get
a response from the original poster, but unfortunately that hardly is the
case. I think I have said all I need to on this topic.
Fatman,
just giving my skinny on it.
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
06 Aug 2004 04:57:36 PM |
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Użytkownik "Fatman" <me@privacy.net> napisał w wiadomości
news:2nhq65F13u2tU1@uni-berlin.de...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:cevpek$3v0$0@pita.alt.net...
Użytkownik "Fatman" <me@privacy.net> napisał w wiadomości
news:2nfefqFd5hiU1@uni-berlin.de...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:cetsjq$ve3$0@pita.alt.net...
what we have to remember is that authority is authority, but comes in at
different levels.
But the bible claims authority is divinely granted.
so is the authority of a boss granted by his boss, in my non-religious
analogy, but it is never an unconditional authority. where in scripture do
we see that the civil authorities have a right to repress the people of god
with impunity? the closest verses you could get to supporting your view are
where christ states to pilate that his authority to crucify him was granted
by god '..therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin' but
note he doesn't say pilate is not reprehensible for what he does. he simply
says judas is worse, which is not saying much, actually. it also shows that
god has given government the right to use the death penalty, if they use it
in justice. paul bears this out also when he says the magistrate 'bears not
the sword in vain'.
as long as a lower authority co-operates with the higher authority, the
the
man at the bottom has no conflict of interest.
So far, the article doesn't show a conflict with "upper management" if one
is to claim the Christian god is such. There were two options the clergy
could have taken. The first is to go through proper channels and either be
granted or denied permission (an option apparently not taken).
The second, openly violate the "law of the land" without even trying to do
it the proper way. They chose the less honorable way. Would the Christian
god condone this action? (especially if that god views Protestants as
heretics and Catholics as the "true" faith?)
you see, we went through all this registration and non-registration business
of churches in the soviet union. what happens is that we have to accept that
the church reports its activities to some atheist, and some atheist decides
what we do and what we don't do, and is in control of the way we worship
god. this is putting a man, and at that a non-believing man, as our master
in the place of god and is never tolerable to us, so people who could have
registered their churches, and ceased any evangelism as part of the bargain
whereby they could continue to gather together, chose not to, and faced the
gulags and the psychiatric prisons instead.
probably many here will never really understand their mindset, but it is not
their gain not to have understood it.
to take a non-religious analogy, when you are at work you are given a
boss
ans you know that your boss also has a boss, and maybe he also has a
boss,
which might be the shareholders or the public interest.
as long as your boss and everyone along the chain of authority are not
working against what the ultimate boss, the shareholders and the public
interest want, and as long as your boss isn't working against what his
boss
wants, then you don't have a conflict of interest.
when your boss makes you do something, howvwer, that you know his boss
wouldn't want, or his boss does agree but you know it's not what the
shareholders would agree to, etc, then you have a conflict of interest.
what does common loyalty demand in thiese circumstances?
Depends on the severity of the demand based on your value system. The same
could also be argued in reverse. You could view your direct boss going
against the wishes of the higher(est) boss, yet you feel (s)he is right.
in this case you pick the lower boss. and this is like the people who went
along with pastors who registered their churches in the soviet union,
preferring the route of lower conflict even though they were not allowed to
invite their kids to go along with them, but make sure they went to
'pionery' instead.
Where do your loyalties go there? I know Christians are under the
assumption
their god in infallible, but you see many instances of Christians morphing
their god to suit their own personal adjenda. If they did not, then you
wouldn't have all the various branches of the same religion. All of them
claiming to be doing "God's will on Earth".
the reason we have various branches in for instance protestant christianity
is that the emphasis was placed in our faith on the individual and his or
her interpretation of the benchmark bible that we all agreed the cannon of
fifteen hundred years ago, at the time when there were no catholics and
protestants.
this is of course at the same time a weakness, if you consider that there is
strength in unity, but also a very positive point, and i would offer you the
proposition that the modern view of democracy, especially anglo-american
views of democracy, devolve very much out of the protestant emphasis on the
individual. it's no coincidence that protestant countries were the places
where the main championing of modern democracy took place.
the eastern system and the feudalist system say 'my boss is my boss. his
boss is not my boss, therefore i do not pull rank on my boss and i just
do
what he asks me to do'. the western system says, no, you don't do that,
you
whistle blow.
the loyalty of every person is to the end recipient of loyalty, namely
the
shareholders and the public interest, and our loyalty to the
intermediate
recipient of loyalty is conditional on his loyalty to the ultimate
recipient
of loyalty, in our system.
and i would say that this is a quite good analogy for how to behave when
national governments vary from the ordinances of god. we are loyal to
the
national leader as long as he himself is loyal to god. i for example am
not
a socialist, but as long as tony blair is prime minister of my first
country
and alexander kwasniewski is president of my adopted country and they
rule
by conscience trying to do what is right in the sight of god, they both
have
my loyalty and i would not think of practicising civil disobedience
vis-a-vis the uk or poland.
Aren't revolutions against monarchy in violation to God's will? Can you
say
the French and American revolutions were because the crown was acting
ungodly? How about the 30 years war, was that justifyable? Wasn't the
countries involved Christian monarchies? Why would the Christian god say "
i'm not sure you wrote everything you had in mind, as that ends rather
mid-sentence. probably you were interrupted. but guessing the intention of
what you have started to argue, i would say that there are revolutions and
there are revolutions, and by their fruits you will know them. revolutions
have been led by people both of more christian intent, such as the english
revolution of the roundheads and the mutiny of the american colonies which
heralded the birth of the usa, and of less christian intent, such as danton,
lenin, and many others. wherever the people feel that they are ruled fairly
by a ruler who loves them, it is hard to get them to revolt, and people have
gladly endured all manner of hardships for kings and princes whom they
believed had their interests at heart, witness the way england rushed to pay
richard the lionheart's ransome, but hated king john. this is essential the
matter that niccolo macciavelli harps on in il principe, and if ou read
kinds, samual and chronicles you will pretty much find the same material
there, but from an higher perspective.
it would be different if these people had sought to prevent the bible
being
distributed, for instance.
That would be a different topic of discussion.
if they did that then i would not hesitate to do
the same sort of smuggling of bibles into these places as i did into the
soviet union during communism.
And you would be in violation of the law in that land. If you knowingly
violate those laws and accept the risks involved, should you be heralded
as
a victim when caught?
well i was caught, given a hard time and sent home early and the british
council gave me a right ticking off, marxist run organisation that they were
at that time, and told me i would be for it when i got back to cambridge. i
was therefore not a little worried that i might have some explaining to do
when i got there. but oddly, the expected harsh words never materialised,
and i was amazed to find i'd been allotted the best room in the college. and
then i'll never forget dear old ned goy, the then head of serbo-croat
studies, and how he cheered me up by telling me how he himself had in
similar circs been escorted out of tito's yugoslavia, and gave me all the
goss on all the slavonic dept. members who had also been put on planes by
the diplomatic service and made to leave various communist countries in
'disgrace'. and then the penny dropped why no one was giving me any grief
about it.
The unfortunate reality is that we as humans grant
each other "human rights" based on a sliding scale that evolves with the
culture. Some systems view the common man as a faceless worker bee. Others
view other races or cultures as sub-human. Some strive to treat all with
high value and worth. Each feels they are in the best interest of that
society (or ruler).
best,
djj
My original point was merely to point out how victimless the original
poster's champions were. That also can be viewed on sliding scale
depending
on each persons individual point of view.
Sorry for all the noise in various other newsgroups other than alt.atheism
(my primary one). I usually respond to the thread un-trimmed in hopes to
get
a response from the original poster, but unfortunately that hardly is the
case. I think I have said all I need to on this topic.
Fatman,
just giving my skinny on it.
well, nothing in usenet ever stays on topic, so don't sweat it.
and it's not like we've been talking about something banal that people read
all the time. i hope some people will agree it was worth the crosspost.
djj
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
05 Aug 2004 01:52:20 PM |
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Uncle Davey wrote:
Użytkownik "Fatman" <me@privacy.net> napisał w wiadomości
news:2nf3qaF8mkkU1@uni-berlin.de...
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.0408050441.69e92e12@posting.google.com...
Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
So, this article says they were essentially breaking the law. Aren't
Christians supposed to obey authority?
Christian churches are allowed in China, but have to obey the law. Are
Protestant Christians above the law?
Fatman.
china ought to obey the law, in terms of the universal declaration of human
rights.
It would be nice if the USA did as well.
http://www.hrw.org/doc/?t=usa
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
06 Aug 2004 06:30:53 AM |
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Użytkownik "Jez" <iced_spear@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:41128345$0$2920$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
Uncle Davey wrote:
Użytkownik "Fatman" <me@privacy.net> napisał w wiadomości
news:2nf3qaF8mkkU1@uni-berlin.de...
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.0408050441.69e92e12@posting.google.com...
Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
So, this article says they were essentially breaking the law. Aren't
Christians supposed to obey authority?
Christian churches are allowed in China, but have to obey the law. Are
Protestant Christians above the law?
Fatman.
china ought to obey the law, in terms of the universal declaration of
human
rights.
It would be nice if the USA did as well.
http://www.hrw.org/doc/?t=usa
and then there's
http://www.usenetposts.com/art8.htm
djj
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| User: "tim gueguen" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
05 Aug 2004 10:53:50 PM |
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"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.0408050441.69e92e12@posting.google.com...
Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
These people were not arrested in the name of atheism. China is an
authoritarian state that claims to be Communist while in reality operates
more and more as a capitalist state. Ergo your argument is nonsense.
tim gueguen 101867
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| User: "Dave Thompson" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
05 Aug 2004 12:36:30 PM |
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"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.0408050441.69e92e12@posting.google.com...
Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
This is an example of a totalitarian state. It doesn't matter if it was a
communist country, and China is certainly not what you call an Atheocracy.
It is more of an example of a state controlling religion. Religion is
allowed there, but all churches and organization are headed by a party
official. Where some countries can be held as an example of what happens
when the church controls the government, China is an example of what happens
when the state controls the church. Be happy we live in a country where both
are seperate and quit whining.
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
05 Aug 2004 03:18:25 PM |
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http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
This is an example of a totalitarian state. It doesn't matter if it was a
communist country, and China is certainly not what you call an Atheocracy.
It is more of an example of a state controlling religion. Religion is
allowed there, but all churches and organization are headed by a party
official. Where some countries can be held as an example of what happens
when the church controls the government, China is an example of what happens
when the state controls the church. Be happy we live in a country where both
are seperate and quit whining.
However we are very quickly leaping towards that sort of totalitarianism, where
the state decides which churches are permitted and which are not. Modern
neo-conservatism is very much like Chinese communism, particularly in relation
to their attitudes regarding governmental power.
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Department of Applied Rattan Use
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking, which
leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy." - Robert Anton
Wilson
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
05 Aug 2004 08:58:35 AM |
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"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.0408050441.69e92e12@posting.google.com...
Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
Truth be told, if Justice was to be done in the US, and if all the
unscrupulous preachers were pinched by cops, there'd be a helluva lot more
than just 100 of 'em arrested.
Between all the child abusers and skimming of church finances and outright
fraud, ya, a whole lot of 'em belong in the pokey . . .
-Tock
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| User: "Hypatia Kosh" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
06 Aug 2004 04:33:40 PM |
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<tock@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<MarQc.408$Mn2.272@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com>...
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:b1c67abe.0408050441.69e92e12@posting.google.com...
Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
Truth be told, if Justice was to be done in the US, and if all the
unscrupulous preachers were pinched by cops, there'd be a helluva lot more
than just 100 of 'em arrested.
Between all the child abusers and skimming of church finances and outright
fraud, ya, a whole lot of 'em belong in the pokey . . .
-Tock
Someone had to say it! Agreed. And it's about time churches started
paying their taxes like any other (dis)honest business.
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| User: "R.Schenck" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
05 Aug 2004 07:08:30 PM |
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(david ford) on 05 Aug 2004 posted
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
why no concern when the falung gon were being rounded up? Are you also a
'free tibet' supporter?
Also, isn't there a different greek word for the governement type that
china has now? Teleocracy no? Governement by a specific set of
ideas/precepts?
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| User: "John Wilkins" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
05 Aug 2004 07:28:21 PM |
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R.Schenck <nygdan_morteauxspam@yahoo.com> wrote:
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) on 05 Aug 2004 posted
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
why no concern when the falung gon were being rounded up? Are you also a
'free tibet' supporter?
Also, isn't there a different greek word for the governement type that
china has now? Teleocracy no? Governement by a specific set of
ideas/precepts?
It's a stock standard oligarchy, supported by an ideology, but if you
want to give it a name, ideocracy will do.
--
John Wilkins
john_SPAM@wilkins.id.au http://wilkins.id.au
"Men mark it when they hit, but do not mark it when they miss"
- Francis Bacon
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| User: "Mitchell Coffey" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
09 Aug 2004 01:15:20 AM |
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(John Wilkins) wrote in message news:<1gi3ea4.zrxszdfv9fotN%>...
R.Schenck <nygdan_morteauxspam@yahoo.com> wrote:
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) on 05 Aug 2004 posted
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
why no concern when the falung gon were being rounded up? Are you also a
'free tibet' supporter?
Also, isn't there a different greek word for the governement type that
china has now? Teleocracy no? Governement by a specific set of
ideas/precepts?
It's a stock standard oligarchy, supported by an ideology, but if you
want to give it a name, ideocracy will do.
It is with great pain and fear for the future that I witness my own
country continue its grotesque slide into coprocephalocracy.
Mitchell Coffey
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| User: "John Wilkins" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
09 Aug 2004 01:25:19 AM |
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Mitchell Coffey <MitCoffey@aol.com> wrote:
john_SPAM@wilkins.id.au (John Wilkins) wrote:
R.Schenck <nygdan_morteauxspam@yahoo.com> wrote:
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) on 05 Aug 2004 posted
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
why no concern when the falung gon were being rounded up? Are you also a
'free tibet' supporter?
Also, isn't there a different greek word for the governement type that
china has now? Teleocracy no? Governement by a specific set of
ideas/precepts?
It's a stock standard oligarchy, supported by an ideology, but if you
want to give it a name, ideocracy will do.
It is with great pain and fear for the future that I witness my own
country continue its grotesque slide into coprocephalocracy.
Spengler might finally be right...
--
John Wilkins
john_SPAM@wilkins.id.au http://wilkins.id.au
"Men mark it when they hit, but do not mark it when they miss"
- Francis Bacon
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
06 Aug 2004 09:10:49 AM |
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R.Schenck wrote:
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) on 05 Aug 2004 posted
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
why no concern when the falung gon were being rounded up? Are you also a
'free tibet' supporter?
Was Tibet free while ruled by the monks ?
No ! There were terrible atrocities there....
Having to give their food away...not allowed medical treatment, Tibet
under religious rule was a nightmare for the poor.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
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| User: "John Thomas Grisham" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
05 Aug 2004 04:10:09 PM |
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(david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0408050441.69e92e12@posting.google.com>...
Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
The people of China do not live in the same context of civilization
that most of the world does.
Prior to WWII, they still had a God/King, rule through association by
a living deity, like Japan... like the Caesars... like the Pharoahs.
Japan was transformed by the industrialization of the 20th century.
The Caesars gave way to the Popes. The Pharoahs died off before the
Caesars. In China, the God/King became Mao and Mao is dead.
The promise of the Cultural Revolution was to create a modern
self-ruling Chinese people in a single generation. The politics was
the dictatorship of the Proletariat that would lead the people into a
humble atheistic industrial society, in which, the state eventually
plays no role. The problem with communism is that the dictatorship
works, but the whole "wasting away of the state" part doesn't ever
happen (Assuming we're not talking about economic collapse like the
Soviets). What's worse is that in China, they actually succeeded in
creating a modern self-ruling Chinese people, but the leaders were
unwilling to hand over the government to them. So through attrition,
new leaders have slowly come up as patrons to old leaders and
everything the Cultural Revolution accomplished has been undone.
Sad, really!
China now has a government of patronage. Those who rule do so because
they were chosen by Mao or chosen by someone chosen by Mao. To make
this last into the future (as Mao becomes legendary), China has become
a bureaucracy and bureaucracies don't waste away. This reinvents the
God/King paradigm without a living God/King. The bureaucracy is the
God/King of unquestionable authority and even better... it's immortal.
But to legitimize the need for all this, they need enemies of the
God/King bureaucracy and they're cutting their teeth on Christians and
foreigners. Don't worry! They'll eventually move on to doing much
worse as the bureaucracy continues to need to legitimize its spending,
policies and existence.
JTG 8/5/04
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
05 Aug 2004 09:48:45 PM |
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On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 21:10:09 +0000 (UTC),
John Thomas Grisham <jgrisham@scu.k12.ca.us> wrote:
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0408050441.69e92e12@posting.google.com>...
Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
The people of China do not live in the same context of civilization
that most of the world does.
Prior to WWII, they still had a God/King, rule through association by
a living deity, like Japan... like the Caesars... like the Pharoahs.
Japan was transformed by the industrialization of the 20th century.
The Caesars gave way to the Popes. The Pharoahs died off before the
Caesars. In China, the God/King became Mao and Mao is dead.
Like the Divine Right of kings, or the Papacy?
<snip>
--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
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| User: "John Thomas Grisham" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
06 Aug 2004 10:46:41 AM |
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AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<slrnch5su0.g1v.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net>...
On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 21:10:09 +0000 (UTC),
John Thomas Grisham <jgrisham@scu.k12.ca.us> wrote:
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0408050441.69e92e12@posting.google.com>...
Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
The people of China do not live in the same context of civilization
that most of the world does.
Prior to WWII, they still had a God/King, rule through association by
a living deity, like Japan... like the Caesars... like the Pharoahs.
Japan was transformed by the industrialization of the 20th century.
The Caesars gave way to the Popes. The Pharoahs died off before the
Caesars. In China, the God/King became Mao and Mao is dead.
Like the Divine Right of kings, or the Papacy?
Communism filled the roll of the Papacy in China and they're
developing the Divine Right of Bureaucracy.
JTG 8/6/04
<snip>
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: TQOFM |
07 Aug 2004 04:02:19 AM |
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For our theist quote of the month, I'd like to submit:
On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:46:41 +0000 (UTC), (John
Thomas Grisham) wrote:
<quote>
Communism filled the roll of the Papacy in China and they're
developing the Divine Right of Bureaucracy.
<unquote>
Any seconds?
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: TQOFM |
07 Aug 2004 10:39:44 AM |
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Jos Flachs wrote:
For our theist quote of the month, I'd like to submit:
On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:46:41 +0000 (UTC), (John
Thomas Grisham) wrote:
<quote>
Communism filled the roll of the Papacy in China and they're
developing the Divine Right of Bureaucracy.
<unquote>
Any seconds?
This might be missed.
Please review Nemo's rules for nomination:
(begin quote)
Here are the rules for the Quote of the Month Contests.
RULES
1. Only atheists and agnostics may participate in the contests.
2. A quote is a valid entry for the contests if:
a. The quote is a brief piece of text;
b. The quote has recently been written in alt.atheism (verifiable);
c. Nomination of the quote is made by an atheist or agnostic
in alt.atheism
d. Nomination of the quote is supported by at least one other
atheist or agnostic in alt.atheism;
e. The quote is not nominated or seconded by the person who wrote
it
in
the first place (no one is allowed to nominate him- or herself,
but a person
can vote for the quote he or she wrote.)
3. There will be two categories: 'Atheist Quote of the Month'
and 'Theist Quote of the Month'. The category for which a
quote must be nominated must be mentioned by the atheist or
agnostic who wants to nominate it.
If a quote is miscategorized (e.g. an atheist quote is mistakenly
nominated in the Theist QOTM category), the quote will be re-directed
to appear in the correct category, with approriate notification.
4. Nominations can be made until five days before the first of the
next month. If quotes are nominated after this period, they will be
considered as entries for the contest of the next month.
* When making a nomination, please use this format for the
subject
line:
"aa - <A or T as applicable>QOTM Nomination (was: <original thread
name>)"
5. Each atheist or agnostic who visits alt.atheism has one vote to
cast for each category (two votes total).
6. Voting starts 5 days before the end of the month. During the
month,
votes will be ignored. This way, all nominees will have equal chance
of
winning.
7. The two winning quotes will be published in the QOTM Archive.
SUMMARY
A nomination must contain the following information:
1. The lines of the quote.
2. Who wrote it.
3. Who nominates or seconds the nomination of this quote (that's
you!)
4. Which category this nomination is for.
5. The word "nomination" MUST appear somewhere in the subject line!
6. The original thread title must appear in the subject line.
Publish the nomination or support for a nomination in a designated
thread, preferably called "[T/A]QoTM Nomination for [month]." You can
also e-mail it to me (see below).
(end quote)
--
John Popelish
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| User: "*nemo*" |
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| Title: Re: TQOFM |
08 Aug 2004 04:32:48 AM |
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In article <4114F7C0.B68BB560@rica.net>,
John Popelish <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote:
Jos Flachs wrote:
For our theist quote of the month, I'd like to submit:
On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:46:41 +0000 (UTC), (John
Thomas Grisham) wrote:
<quote>
Communism filled the roll of the Papacy in China and they're
developing the Divine Right of Bureaucracy.
<unquote>
Any seconds?
This might be missed.
I haven't missed it... I keep an eye out for misspellings and other such
quirks. But I have noted that no one has seconded the quote ... so far...
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
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| User: "Dixit" |
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| Title: Re: TQOFM |
07 Aug 2004 07:58:08 AM |
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Jos Flachs wrote:
For our theist quote of the month, I'd like to submit:
On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:46:41 +0000 (UTC), (John
Thomas Grisham) wrote:
<quote>
Communism filled the roll of the Papacy in China and they're
developing the Divine Right of Bureaucracy.
<unquote>
Any seconds?
No. It's not nice to make fun of other peoplezez religionz even if we
does hatez 'em, my precious. 8^)
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| User: "Virgil" |
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| Title: Re: TQOFM |
07 Aug 2004 02:40:16 PM |
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In article <Al4Rc.260307$Oq2.176530@attbi_s52>, Dixit <dix@nospam.com>
wrote:
Jos Flachs wrote:
For our theist quote of the month, I'd like to submit:
On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:46:41 +0000 (UTC), (John
Thomas Grisham) wrote:
<quote>
Communism filled the roll of the Papacy in China and they're
developing the Divine Right of Bureaucracy.
<unquote>
Any seconds?
No. It's not nice to make fun of other peoplezez religionz even if we
does hatez 'em, my precious. 8^)
Remarkable how often Septic (of the Magically Invisible Space Pixies)
complains about other people invading what he regards as his own
private prerogatives.
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
06 Aug 2004 11:22:08 AM |
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On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:46:41 +0000 (UTC),
John Thomas Grisham <jgrisham@scu.k12.ca.us> wrote:
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<slrnch5su0.g1v.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net>...
On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 21:10:09 +0000 (UTC),
John Thomas Grisham <jgrisham@scu.k12.ca.us> wrote:
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0408050441.69e92e12@posting.google.com>...
Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
The people of China do not live in the same context of civilization
that most of the world does.
Prior to WWII, they still had a God/King, rule through association by
a living deity, like Japan... like the Caesars... like the Pharoahs.
Japan was transformed by the industrialization of the 20th century.
The Caesars gave way to the Popes. The Pharoahs died off before the
Caesars. In China, the God/King became Mao and Mao is dead.
Like the Divine Right of kings, or the Papacy?
Communism filled the roll of the Papacy in China and they're
developing the Divine Right of Bureaucracy.
I think it's still far too early to really judge where China is going. The
older generation of Communists is waning, and the technocrats are firmly in
control now. I can understand some of the caution. Clearly a meltdown in
China like there was in the Soviet Union would be a bad thing.
I don't think China is going to become some beacon of freedom and prosperity
any time in the near future, but I do think that the new leadership is
willing to dole out baubles just to retain control. They're interested in
winning the war, and seem willing to lose minor battles. Communism is dead
in China, that's for certain.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
05 Aug 2004 07:15:02 PM |
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On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 21:10:09 +0000 (UTC), (John
Thomas Grisham) wrote:
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0408050441.69e92e12@posting.google.com>...
Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
The people of China do not live in the same context of civilization
that most of the world does.
Prior to WWII,
1911, but who's counting.
they still had a God/King, rule through association by
a living deity, like Japan... like the Caesars... like the Pharoahs.
Japan was transformed by the industrialization of the 20th century.
The Caesars gave way to the Popes. The Pharoahs died off before the
Caesars.
Nope.
In China, the God/King became Mao and Mao is dead.
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
Do in order to understand.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
05 Aug 2004 08:55:32 AM |
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On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 12:32:15 +0000 in episode
<b1c67abe.0408050441.69e92e12@posting.google.com> we saw our hero
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford):
Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
You mean an example of what happens when there is no separation between
church and state.
The PRC and the Islamic Republic of Iran have in common that their
governments *have positions on religion. As opposed to what the founders
of the US envisioned, a government that is totally separate from and has
no regard of religion.
Notice the pattern?
Entangled: oppression.
Separated: freedom.
It's just not that difficult.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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| User: "Alexander" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders |
05 Aug 2004 09:08:04 AM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.08.05.14.04.33.367049@org.webmaster...
On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 12:32:15 +0000 in episode
<b1c67abe.0408050441.69e92e12@posting.google.com> we saw our hero
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford):
Atheocracy at work: China arrests 100 church leaders
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39520
You mean an example of what happens when there is no separation between
church and state.
The PRC and the Islamic Republic of Iran have in common that their
governments *have positions on religion. As opposed to what the founders
of the US envisioned, a government that is totally separate from and has
no regard of religion.
Notice the pattern?
Entangled: oppression.
Separated: freedom.
It's just not that difficult.
Weeeeeeell - we don't have any separation of Church and state in the UK.
The church is the state in certain regards, especially some constitutional
matters. We don't technically have the right to freedom of expression,
assembly or freedom of speech enshrined anywhere, but I can't really say I
feel especially oppressed.
Similar situation in most other parts of europe as well. I don't think it's
as simple as saying there is a wall of separation that promotes religious
and ideological tolerance
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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