| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"david ford" |
| Date: |
24 Nov 2004 07:11:57 AM |
| Object: |
Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to have conducted lethal gas
experiments on political prisoners in the 1970s that were still
happening as recently as 2002.
In 10 hours of interviews Monday, three North Koreans detailed
chilling experiments in which prisoners were placed in glass chambers
and exposed to chemicals that killed them within hours, said Rabbi
Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a
Jewish human rights group based in Los Angeles.
Mr. Cooper said the accounts came from North Koreans now living in
South Korea and who purportedly were involved in the experiments.
"The openness and the specificity of the description of these murders
was quite remarkable," Mr. Cooper said. "On the other hand, the lack
of any inkling of remorse on the part of the individuals decades later
-- this kind of action I found to be quite shocking.
"The attitude of the scientists ... was these were political
prisoners, they were as good as dead anyway, and therefore, utilizing
them for experiments held really no moral implications whatsoever."
Mr. Cooper said the interviews were arranged by other human rights
activists in Seoul, not by the South Korean government.
None of the three North Koreans were present at the press conference,
and few other details were released about them.
In a meeting later with South Korean Foreign Ministry officials, Mr.
Cooper said, "there was absolutely no attempt to deny these kinds of
activities on the part of the South Korean official I met. He did say
it was unfortunate."
Mr. Cooper detailed an account from a 31-year-old North Korean chemist
who said he was involved in one of two parallel groups involved in
experiments.
The chemist's group experimented on animals, and recorded data on a
chart.
The defector told Mr. Cooper that if the experiments were successful,
"we then turned over the results to our colleagues, and they were
experimenting on human guinea pigs."
Two of the North Koreans Mr. Cooper spoke with were sources for two
presentations by the British Broadcasting Corp. (BBC) earlier this
year.
Those programs featured interviews with North Koreans who said
chemical experiments were conducted on humans, as well as documents
that were said to have been smuggled from inside the country.
Pyongyang denied the reports.
The experiments are on a different scale and for different reasons
than those of the Nazis, Mr. Cooper said. But the reports underscore
the importance of incorporating human rights issues into discussions
with North Korea, he said.
South Korea has avoided direct confrontation with North Korea on human
rights issues. The North Korean Human Rights Act, signed into law in
October by President Bush, was criticized by several members of the
ruling Uri Party, who saw the measure as antagonistic and a threat to
reconciliation between the Koreas at a time when economic cooperation
is increasing.
.
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
24 Nov 2004 06:53:18 PM |
|
|
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-b1c67abe.0411240525.66b6d2d4@posting.google.com...
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to have conducted lethal gas
experiments on political prisoners in the 1970s that were still
happening as recently as 2002.
Are you trying to blame us atheists for gassing political prisoners in NK?
You are as insane as you look.
.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
24 Nov 2004 02:43:53 PM |
|
|
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-b1c67abe.0411240525.66b6d2d4@posting.google.com...
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to have conducted lethal gas
experiments on political prisoners in the 1970s that were still
happening as recently as 2002.
Hey, our religious administration has a bunch of experimental subjects held
in Guantanimo, just begging for use.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
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| User: "Kermit" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
25 Nov 2004 04:54:44 AM |
|
|
(david ford) wrote in message news:<dford3-b1c67abe.0411240525.66b6d2d4@posting.google.com>...
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to have conducted lethal gas
experiments on political prisoners in the 1970s that were still
happening as recently as 2002.
In 10 hours of interviews Monday, three North Koreans detailed
chilling experiments in which prisoners were placed in glass chambers
and exposed to chemicals that killed them within hours, said Rabbi
Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a
Jewish human rights group based in Los Angeles.
Mr. Cooper said the accounts came from North Koreans now living in
South Korea and who purportedly were involved in the experiments.
"The openness and the specificity of the description of these murders
was quite remarkable," Mr. Cooper said. "On the other hand, the lack
of any inkling of remorse on the part of the individuals decades later
-- this kind of action I found to be quite shocking.
"The attitude of the scientists ... was these were political
prisoners, they were as good as dead anyway, and therefore, utilizing
them for experiments held really no moral implications whatsoever."
Mr. Cooper said the interviews were arranged by other human rights
activists in Seoul, not by the South Korean government.
None of the three North Koreans were present at the press conference,
and few other details were released about them.
In a meeting later with South Korean Foreign Ministry officials, Mr.
Cooper said, "there was absolutely no attempt to deny these kinds of
activities on the part of the South Korean official I met. He did say
it was unfortunate."
Mr. Cooper detailed an account from a 31-year-old North Korean chemist
who said he was involved in one of two parallel groups involved in
experiments.
The chemist's group experimented on animals, and recorded data on a
chart.
The defector told Mr. Cooper that if the experiments were successful,
"we then turned over the results to our colleagues, and they were
experimenting on human guinea pigs."
Two of the North Koreans Mr. Cooper spoke with were sources for two
presentations by the British Broadcasting Corp. (BBC) earlier this
year.
Those programs featured interviews with North Koreans who said
chemical experiments were conducted on humans, as well as documents
that were said to have been smuggled from inside the country.
Pyongyang denied the reports.
The experiments are on a different scale and for different reasons
than those of the Nazis, Mr. Cooper said. But the reports underscore
the importance of incorporating human rights issues into discussions
with North Korea, he said.
South Korea has avoided direct confrontation with North Korea on human
rights issues. The North Korean Human Rights Act, signed into law in
October by President Bush, was criticized by several members of the
ruling Uri Party, who saw the measure as antagonistic and a threat to
reconciliation between the Koreas at a time when economic cooperation
is increasing.
So... are you saying that anyone who studies science speaks Korean?
Kermit
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| User: "Boikat" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
25 Nov 2004 05:14:44 AM |
|
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"Kermit" <unrestrained_hand@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2b38d8c5.0411250308.4a463369@posting.google.com...
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote in message
news:<dford3-b1c67abe.0411240525.66b6d2d4@posting.google.com>...
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to have conducted lethal gas
experiments on political prisoners in the 1970s that were still
happening as recently as 2002.
In 10 hours of interviews Monday, three North Koreans detailed
chilling experiments in which prisoners were placed in glass chambers
and exposed to chemicals that killed them within hours, said Rabbi
Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a
Jewish human rights group based in Los Angeles.
Mr. Cooper said the accounts came from North Koreans now living in
South Korea and who purportedly were involved in the experiments.
"The openness and the specificity of the description of these murders
was quite remarkable," Mr. Cooper said. "On the other hand, the lack
of any inkling of remorse on the part of the individuals decades later
-- this kind of action I found to be quite shocking.
"The attitude of the scientists ... was these were political
prisoners, they were as good as dead anyway, and therefore, utilizing
them for experiments held really no moral implications whatsoever."
Mr. Cooper said the interviews were arranged by other human rights
activists in Seoul, not by the South Korean government.
None of the three North Koreans were present at the press conference,
and few other details were released about them.
In a meeting later with South Korean Foreign Ministry officials, Mr.
Cooper said, "there was absolutely no attempt to deny these kinds of
activities on the part of the South Korean official I met. He did say
it was unfortunate."
Mr. Cooper detailed an account from a 31-year-old North Korean chemist
who said he was involved in one of two parallel groups involved in
experiments.
The chemist's group experimented on animals, and recorded data on a
chart.
The defector told Mr. Cooper that if the experiments were successful,
"we then turned over the results to our colleagues, and they were
experimenting on human guinea pigs."
Two of the North Koreans Mr. Cooper spoke with were sources for two
presentations by the British Broadcasting Corp. (BBC) earlier this
year.
Those programs featured interviews with North Koreans who said
chemical experiments were conducted on humans, as well as documents
that were said to have been smuggled from inside the country.
Pyongyang denied the reports.
The experiments are on a different scale and for different reasons
than those of the Nazis, Mr. Cooper said. But the reports underscore
the importance of incorporating human rights issues into discussions
with North Korea, he said.
South Korea has avoided direct confrontation with North Korea on human
rights issues. The North Korean Human Rights Act, signed into law in
October by President Bush, was criticized by several members of the
ruling Uri Party, who saw the measure as antagonistic and a threat to
reconciliation between the Koreas at a time when economic cooperation
is increasing.
So... are you saying that anyone who studies science speaks Korean?
No, silly, he's clearly saying that no theocracy has ever done anything like
murdering it's citizens for any scientific experiment. Any thocracy that
did anything like that, well, it wasn't for scientific reasons, and the main
point is that the N Korean government is ahteistic (Though the article never
delves into that aspect), so by implication, a theocracy is much better, and
much less likely to do "scientific experiments" on it's citizens. After
all, ethnic purging, via genocide, based upon religious affiliations is
something *totally* different!
Boikat
--
<42><
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| User: "Kermit" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
25 Nov 2004 11:00:55 PM |
|
|
"Boikat" <boikat@bellsouthnospam.net> wrote in message news:<aijpd.104031$Tq1.34361@bignews1.bellsouth.net>...
"Kermit" <unrestrained_hand@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2b38d8c5.0411250308.4a463369@posting.google.com...
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote in message
news:<dford3-b1c67abe.0411240525.66b6d2d4@posting.google.com>...
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to have conducted lethal gas
experiments on political prisoners in the 1970s that were still
happening as recently as 2002.
In 10 hours of interviews Monday, three North Koreans detailed
chilling experiments in which prisoners were placed in glass chambers
and exposed to chemicals that killed them within hours, said Rabbi
Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a
Jewish human rights group based in Los Angeles.
Mr. Cooper said the accounts came from North Koreans now living in
South Korea and who purportedly were involved in the experiments.
"The openness and the specificity of the description of these murders
was quite remarkable," Mr. Cooper said. "On the other hand, the lack
of any inkling of remorse on the part of the individuals decades later
-- this kind of action I found to be quite shocking.
"The attitude of the scientists ... was these were political
prisoners, they were as good as dead anyway, and therefore, utilizing
them for experiments held really no moral implications whatsoever."
Mr. Cooper said the interviews were arranged by other human rights
activists in Seoul, not by the South Korean government.
None of the three North Koreans were present at the press conference,
and few other details were released about them.
In a meeting later with South Korean Foreign Ministry officials, Mr.
Cooper said, "there was absolutely no attempt to deny these kinds of
activities on the part of the South Korean official I met. He did say
it was unfortunate."
Mr. Cooper detailed an account from a 31-year-old North Korean chemist
who said he was involved in one of two parallel groups involved in
experiments.
The chemist's group experimented on animals, and recorded data on a
chart.
The defector told Mr. Cooper that if the experiments were successful,
"we then turned over the results to our colleagues, and they were
experimenting on human guinea pigs."
Two of the North Koreans Mr. Cooper spoke with were sources for two
presentations by the British Broadcasting Corp. (BBC) earlier this
year.
Those programs featured interviews with North Koreans who said
chemical experiments were conducted on humans, as well as documents
that were said to have been smuggled from inside the country.
Pyongyang denied the reports.
The experiments are on a different scale and for different reasons
than those of the Nazis, Mr. Cooper said. But the reports underscore
the importance of incorporating human rights issues into discussions
with North Korea, he said.
South Korea has avoided direct confrontation with North Korea on human
rights issues. The North Korean Human Rights Act, signed into law in
October by President Bush, was criticized by several members of the
ruling Uri Party, who saw the measure as antagonistic and a threat to
reconciliation between the Koreas at a time when economic cooperation
is increasing.
So... are you saying that anyone who studies science speaks Korean?
No, silly, he's clearly saying that no theocracy has ever done anything like
murdering it's citizens for any scientific experiment. Any thocracy that
did anything like that, well, it wasn't for scientific reasons, and the main
point is that the N Korean government is ahteistic (Though the article never
delves into that aspect), so by implication, a theocracy is much better, and
much less likely to do "scientific experiments" on it's citizens. After
all, ethnic purging, via genocide, based upon religious affiliations is
something *totally* different!
Boikat
Ah.
And IIRC most religious crusades were concerned about the people they
were killing; the poor heretics needed to be converted at any cost, or
they would be lost in the afterlife.
While we cold-hearted atheists/scientists/liberals/humanists/educated
elite apparently only kill when we want to get them out of the way.
That, and we all speak Korean.
Kermit
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| User: "BDK" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
25 Nov 2004 09:00:14 AM |
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In article <dford3-b1c67abe.0411240525.66b6d2d4
@posting.google.com>, says...
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to have conducted lethal gas
experiments on political prisoners in the 1970s that were still
happening as recently as 2002.
In 10 hours of interviews Monday, three North Koreans detailed
chilling experiments in which prisoners were placed in glass chambers
and exposed to chemicals that killed them within hours, said Rabbi
Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a
Jewish human rights group based in Los Angeles.
Mr. Cooper said the accounts came from North Koreans now living in
South Korea and who purportedly were involved in the experiments.
"The openness and the specificity of the description of these murders
was quite remarkable," Mr. Cooper said. "On the other hand, the lack
of any inkling of remorse on the part of the individuals decades later
-- this kind of action I found to be quite shocking.
"The attitude of the scientists ... was these were political
prisoners, they were as good as dead anyway, and therefore, utilizing
them for experiments held really no moral implications whatsoever."
Mr. Cooper said the interviews were arranged by other human rights
activists in Seoul, not by the South Korean government.
None of the three North Koreans were present at the press conference,
and few other details were released about them.
In a meeting later with South Korean Foreign Ministry officials, Mr.
Cooper said, "there was absolutely no attempt to deny these kinds of
activities on the part of the South Korean official I met. He did say
it was unfortunate."
Mr. Cooper detailed an account from a 31-year-old North Korean chemist
who said he was involved in one of two parallel groups involved in
experiments.
The chemist's group experimented on animals, and recorded data on a
chart.
The defector told Mr. Cooper that if the experiments were successful,
"we then turned over the results to our colleagues, and they were
experimenting on human guinea pigs."
Two of the North Koreans Mr. Cooper spoke with were sources for two
presentations by the British Broadcasting Corp. (BBC) earlier this
year.
Those programs featured interviews with North Koreans who said
chemical experiments were conducted on humans, as well as documents
that were said to have been smuggled from inside the country.
Pyongyang denied the reports.
The experiments are on a different scale and for different reasons
than those of the Nazis, Mr. Cooper said. But the reports underscore
the importance of incorporating human rights issues into discussions
with North Korea, he said.
South Korea has avoided direct confrontation with North Korea on human
rights issues. The North Korean Human Rights Act, signed into law in
October by President Bush, was criticized by several members of the
ruling Uri Party, who saw the measure as antagonistic and a threat to
reconciliation between the Koreas at a time when economic cooperation
is increasing.
And of course, this has nothing to do with atheism, just
a commie loon dictator...
BDK
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
25 Nov 2004 01:37:46 AM |
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In article <dford3-b1c67abe.0411240525.66b6d2d4@posting.google.com>,
(david ford) wrote:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to have conducted lethal gas
experiments on political prisoners in the 1970s that were still
happening as recently as 2002.
Let's see. North Koreans gas political prisoners. North Koreans are
Communists. Communists are atheists. Therefore, all atheists are North
Korean Communists who gas political prisoners.
Is that what you are trying to tell us? Nice logic, kid.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Which raises the question: Can a people that believes more fervently
in theVirgin Birth than in evolution still be called an Enlightened
nation?-Garry Wills, New York Times 11/04/04
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| User: "RHertz" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
25 Nov 2004 09:45:08 AM |
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"johac" <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote in message
news:jhachm-331747.23511424112004@news.giganews.com...
| Is that what you are trying to tell us? Nice logic, kid.
You are attempting to use logic with a religionist, which is a complete
waste of time.
--
================================
Evolution: Making life better for over 4 billion years.
.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
26 Nov 2004 01:18:28 AM |
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|
In article <co4vep$np1$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>,
"RHertz" <rhertz@aol.com> wrote:
"johac" <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote in message
news:jhachm-331747.23511424112004@news.giganews.com...
| Is that what you are trying to tell us? Nice logic, kid.
You are attempting to use logic with a religionist, which is a complete
waste of time.
I know, but I'm hoping that maybe just once a thin beam of light might
penetrate that foggy morass that they call their brains.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Which raises the question: Can a people that believes more fervently
in theVirgin Birth than in evolution still be called an Enlightened
nation?-Garry Wills, New York Times 11/04/04
.
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| User: "catshark" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
26 Nov 2004 02:28:40 PM |
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On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 07:18:28 +0000 (UTC), johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:
In article <co4vep$np1$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>,
"RHertz" <rhertz@aol.com> wrote:
"johac" <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote in message
news:jhachm-331747.23511424112004@news.giganews.com...
| Is that what you are trying to tell us? Nice logic, kid.
You are attempting to use logic with a religionist, which is a complete
waste of time.
I know, but I'm hoping that maybe just once a thin beam of light might
penetrate that foggy morass that they call their brains.
Careful now. I know many "religionists" who would have no trouble seeing
the illogic of Ford's comparison and have quite something other than a
foggy morass for a brain. At the very least, confusing Ford with all
theists is as bad as Ford confusing North Korea with all "atheocratic"
countries.
--
---------------
J. Pieret
---------------
In the name of the bee
And of the butterfly
And of the breeze, amen
- Emily Dickinson -
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
27 Nov 2004 02:05:39 AM |
|
|
In article <a05fq05ipkl9fecmrb2hl1jpe0jbk4lid8@4ax.com>,
catshark <catshark@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 07:18:28 +0000 (UTC), johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:
In article <co4vep$np1$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>,
"RHertz" <rhertz@aol.com> wrote:
"johac" <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote in message
news:jhachm-331747.23511424112004@news.giganews.com...
| Is that what you are trying to tell us? Nice logic, kid.
You are attempting to use logic with a religionist, which is a complete
waste of time.
I know, but I'm hoping that maybe just once a thin beam of light might
penetrate that foggy morass that they call their brains.
Careful now. I know many "religionists" who would have no trouble seeing
the illogic of Ford's comparison and have quite something other than a
foggy morass for a brain. At the very least, confusing Ford with all
theists is as bad as Ford confusing North Korea with all "atheocratic"
countries.
Ok. Religionists like Ford then.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Which raises the question: Can a people that believes more fervently
in theVirgin Birth than in evolution still be called an Enlightened
nation?-Garry Wills, New York Times 11/04/04
.
|
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| User: "Robin Levett" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
28 Nov 2004 11:40:53 AM |
|
|
johac wrote:
In article <a05fq05ipkl9fecmrb2hl1jpe0jbk4lid8@4ax.com>,
catshark <catshark@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 07:18:28 +0000 (UTC), johac <jhachm@ixpres.com>
wrote:
In article <co4vep$np1$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>,
"RHertz" <rhertz@aol.com> wrote:
"johac" <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote in message
news:jhachm-331747.23511424112004@news.giganews.com...
| Is that what you are trying to tell us? Nice logic, kid.
You are attempting to use logic with a religionist, which is a
complete waste of time.
I know, but I'm hoping that maybe just once a thin beam of light might
penetrate that foggy morass that they call their brains.
Careful now. I know many "religionists" who would have no trouble seeing
the illogic of Ford's comparison and have quite something other than a
foggy morass for a brain. At the very least, confusing Ford with all
theists is as bad as Ford confusing North Korea with all "atheocratic"
countries.
Ok. Religionists like Ford then.
I'm not sure they do, you know - not all of them, anyway...
--
Robin Levett
rlevett@rlevett.ibmuklunix.net (unmunge by removing big blue - don't yahoo)
.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
25 Nov 2004 09:02:31 PM |
|
|
johac wrote:
In article <dford3-b1c67abe.0411240525.66b6d2d4@posting.google.com>,
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to have conducted lethal gas
experiments on political prisoners in the 1970s that were still
happening as recently as 2002.
Let's see. North Koreans gas political prisoners. North Koreans are
Communists. Communists are atheists. Therefore, all atheists are North
Korean Communists who gas political prisoners.
Is that what you are trying to tell us? Nice logic, kid.
So if NK kills political prisoners its bad, but if the US kills millions by
desroying anation's water supply that'sOK and we can vote for the SOBs
that do this with clear consience.
http://www.progressive.org/0801issue/nagy0901.html
The Secret Behind the Sanctions
How the U.S. Intentionally Destroyed Iraq's Water Supply
by Thomas J. Nagy
Over the last two years, I've discovered documents of the
Defense Intelligence Agency proving beyond a doubt that,
contrary to the Geneva Convention, the U.S. government
intentionally used sanctions against Iraq to degrade the
country's water supply after the Gulf War. The United
States knew the cost that civilian Iraqis, mostly children,
would pay, and it went ahead anyway.
The primary document, "Iraq Water Treatment Vulnerabilities,"
is dated January 22, 1991. It spells out how sanctions will
prevent Iraq from supplying clean water to its citizens.
"Iraq depends on importing specialized equipment and some
chemicals to purify its water supply, most of which is heavily
mineralized and frequently brackish to saline," the document
states. "With no domestic sources of both water treatment
replacement parts and some essential chemicals, Iraq will
continue attempts to circumvent United Nations Sanctions
to import these vital commodities. Failing to secure
supplies will result in a shortage of pure drinking water
for much of the population. This could lead to increased
incidences, if not epidemics, of disease."
The document goes into great technical detail about the sources
and quality of Iraq's water supply. The quality of untreated
water "generally is poor," and drinking such water "could
result in diarrhea," the document says. It notes that Iraq's
rivers "contain biological materials, pollutants, and are
laden with bacteria. Unless the water is purified with chlorine,
epidemics of such diseases as cholera, hepatitis, and typhoid
could occur."
The document notes that the importation of chlorine "has been
embargoed" by sanctions. "Recent reports indicate the chlorine
supply is critically low."
Food and medicine will also be affected, the document states.
"Food processing, electronic, and, particularly, pharmaceutical
plants require extremely pure water that is free from biological
contaminants," it says.
The document addresses possible Iraqi countermeasures to obtain
drinkable water despite sanctions.
"Iraq conceivably could truck water from the mountain reservoirs
to urban areas. But the capability to gain significant quantities
is extremely limited," the document states. "The amount of pipe on
hand and the lack of pumping stations would limit laying pipelines
to these reservoirs. Moreover, without chlorine purification, the
water still would contain biological pollutants. Some affluent
Iraqis could obtain their own minimally adequate supply of good
quality water from Northern Iraqi sources. If boiled, the water
could be safely consumed. Poorer Iraqis and industries requiring
large quantities of pure water would not be able to meet their needs."
The document also discounted the possibility of Iraqis using rainwater.
"Precipitation occurs in Iraq during the winter and spring, but
it falls primarily in the northern mountains," it says. "Sporadic
rains, sometimes heavy, fall over the lower plains. But Iraq could
not rely on rain to provide adequate pure water."
As an alternative, "Iraq could try convincing the United Nations or
individual countries to exempt water treatment supplies from sanctions
for humanitarian reasons," the document says. "It probably also is
attempting to purchase supplies by using some sympathetic countries
as fronts. If such attempts fail, Iraqi alternatives are not adequate
for their national requirements."
In cold language, the document spells out what is in store: "Iraq
will suffer increasing shortages of purified water because of the
lack of required chemicals and desalination membranes. Incidences of
disease, including possible epidemics, will become probable unless
the population were careful to boil water."
The document gives a timetable for the destruction of Iraq's water
supplies. "Iraq's overall water treatment capability will suffer a
slow decline, rather than a precipitous halt," it says. "Although
Iraq is already experiencing a loss of water treatment capability,
it probably will take at least six months (to June 1991) before the
system is fully degraded."
This document, which was partially declassified but unpublicized in 1995,
can be found on the Pentagon's web site at www.gulflink.osd.mil.
(I disclosed this document last fall. But the news media showed little
interest in it. The only reporters I know of who wrote lengthy stories
on it were Felicity Arbuthnot in the Sunday Herald of Scotland, who broke
the story, and Charlie Reese of the Orlando Sentinel, who did a follow-up.)
Recently, I have come across other DIA documents that confirm the Pentagon's
monitoring of the degradation of Iraq's water supply. These documents have
not been publicized until now.
The first one in this batch is called "Disease Information," and is also
dated January 22, 1991. At the top, it says, "Subject: Effects of Bombing
on Disease Occurrence in Baghdad." The analysis is blunt: "Increased
incidence of diseases will be attributable to degradation of normal
preventive medicine, waste disposal, water purification/ distribution,
electricity, and decreased ability to control disease outbreaks. Any
urban area in Iraq that has received infrastructure damage will have
similar problems."
The document proceeds to itemize the likely outbreaks. It mentions "acute
diarrhea" brought on by bacteria such as E. coli, shigella, and salmonella,
or by protozoa such as giardia, which will affect "particularly children,"
or by rotavirus, which will also affect "particularly children," a phrase
it puts in parentheses. And it cites the possibilities of typhoid and
cholera
outbreaks.
The document warns that the Iraqi government may "blame the United States
for public health problems created by the military conflict."
The second DIA document, "Disease Outbreaks in Iraq," is dated February 21,
1990, but the year is clearly a typo and should be 1991. It states:
"Conditions
are favorable for communicable disease outbreaks, particularly in major
urban areas affected by coalition bombing." It adds: "Infectious disease
prevalence in major Iraqi urban areas targeted by coalition bombing
(Baghdad,
Basrah) undoubtedly has increased since the beginning of Desert Storm. . . .
Current public health problems are attributable to the reduction of normal
preventive medicine, waste disposal, water purification and distribution,
electricity, and the decreased ability to control disease outbreaks."
This document lists the "most likely diseases during next sixty-ninety days
(descending order): diarrheal diseases (particularly children); acute
respiratory illnesses (colds and influenza); typhoid; hepatitis A
(particularly
children); measles, diphtheria, and pertussis (particularly children);
meningitis, including meningococcal (particularly children); cholera
(possible,
but less likely)."
Like the previous document, this one warns that the Iraqi government might
"propagandize increases of endemic diseases."
The third document in this series, "Medical Problems in Iraq," is dated
March
15, 1991. It says: "Communicable diseases in Baghdad are more widespread
than
usually observed during this time of the year and are linked to the poor
sanitary conditions (contaminated water supplies and improper sewage
disposal)
resulting from the war. According to a United Nations Children's Fund
(UNICEF)/World Health Organization report, the quantity of potable water is
less than 5 percent of the original supply, there are no operational water
and
sewage treatment plants, and the reported incidence of diarrhea is four
times
above normal levels. Additionally, respiratory infections are on the rise.
Children particularly have been affected by these diseases."
Perhaps to put a gloss on things, the document states, "There are
indications
that the situation is improving and that the population is coping with the
degraded conditions." But it adds: "Conditions in Baghdad remain favorable
for
communicable disease outbreaks."
The fourth document, "Status of Disease at Refugee Camps," is dated May
1991.
The summary says, "Cholera and measles have emerged at refugee camps.
Further
infectious diseases will spread due to inadequate water treatment and poor
sanitation."
The reason for this outbreak is clearly stated again. "The main causes of
infectious diseases, particularly diarrhea, dysentery, and upper respiratory
problems, are poor sanitation and unclean water. These diseases primarily
afflict the old and young children."
The fifth document, "Health Conditions in Iraq, June 1991," is still heavily
censored. All I can make out is that the DIA sent a source "to assess health
conditions and determine the most critical medical needs of Iraq. Source
observed that Iraqi medical system was in considerable disarray, medical
facilities had been extensively looted, and almost all medicines were in
critically short supply."
In one refugee camp, the document says, "at least 80 percent of the
population"
has diarrhea. At this same camp, named Cukurca, "cholera, hepatitis type B,
and
measles have broken out."
The protein deficiency disease kwashiorkor was observed in Iraq "for the
first
time," the document adds. "Gastroenteritis was killing children. . . . In
the
south, 80 percent of the deaths were children (with the exception of Al
Amarah,
where 60 percent of deaths were children)."
The final document is "Iraq: Assessment of Current Health Threats and
Capabilities," and it is dated November 15, 1991. This one has a distinct
damage-control feel to it. Here is how it begins: "Restoration of Iraq's
public
health services and shortages of major medical materiel remain dominant
international concerns. Both issues apparently are being exploited by Saddam
Hussein in an effort to keep public opinion firmly against the U.S. and its
Coalition allies and to direct blame away from the Iraqi government."
It minimizes the extent of the damage. "Although current countrywide
infectious
disease incidence in Iraq is higher than it was before the Gulf War, it is
not
at the catastrophic levels that some groups predicted. The Iraqi regime will
continue to exploit disease incidence data for its own political purposes."
And it places the blame squarely on Saddam Hussein. "Iraq's medical supply
shortages are the result of the central government's stockpiling, selective
distribution, and exploitation of domestic and international relief medical
resources." It adds: "Resumption of public health programs . . . depends
completely on the Iraqi government."
As these documents illustrate, the United States knew sanctions had the
capacity
to devastate the water treatment system of Iraq. It knew what the
consequences
would be: increased outbreaks of disease and high rates of child mortality.
And
it was more concerned about the public relations nightmare for Washington
than
the actual nightmare that the sanctions created for innocent Iraqis.
The Geneva Convention is absolutely clear. In a 1979 protocol relating to
the
"protection of victims of international armed conflicts," Article 54, it
states: "It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove, or render useless
objects
indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, such as
foodstuffs,
crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies, and irrigation
works, for the specific purpose of denying them for their sustenance value
to
the civilian population or to the adverse Party, whatever the motive,
whether
in order to starve out civilians, to cause them to move away, or for any
other
motive."
But that is precisely what the U.S. government did, with malice
aforethought. It
"destroyed, removed, or rendered useless" Iraq's "drinking water
installations
and supplies." The sanctions, imposed for a decade largely at the
insistence of
the United States, constitute a violation of the Geneva Convention. They
amount
to a systematic effort to, in the DIA's own words, "fully degrade" Iraq's
water
sources.
At a House hearing on June 7, Representative Cynthia McKinney, Democrat of
Georgia, referred to the document "Iraq Water Treatment Vulnerabilities" and
said: "Attacking the Iraqi public drinking water supply flagrantly targets
civilians and is a violation of the Geneva Convention and of the fundamental
laws of civilized nations."
Over the last decade, Washington extended the toll by continuing to withhold
approval for Iraq to import the few chemicals and items of equipment it
needed
in order to clean up its water supply.
Last summer, Representative Tony Hall, Democrat of Ohio, wrote to
then-Secretary
of State Madeleine Albright "about the profound effects of the increasing
deterioration of Iraq's water supply and sanitation systems on its
children's
health." Hall wrote, "The prime killer of children under five years of
age--diarrheal diseases--has reached epidemic proportions, and they now
strike
four times more often than they did in 1990. . . . Holds on contracts for
the
water and sanitation sector are a prime reason for the increases in sickness
and death. Of the eighteen contracts, all but one hold was placed by the
U.S.
government. The contracts are for purification chemicals, chlorinators,
chemical dosing pumps, water tankers, and other equipment. . . . I urge you
to
weigh your decision against the disease and death that are the unavoidable
result of not having safe drinking water and minimum levels of sanitation."
For more than ten years, the United States has deliberately pursued a
policy of
destroying the water treatment system of Iraq, knowing full well the cost in
Iraqi lives. The United Nations has estimated that more than 500,000 Iraqi
children have died as a result of sanctions, and that 5,000 Iraqi children
continue to die every month for this reason.
No one can say that the United States didn't know what it was doing.
See for Yourself
All the DIA documents mentioned in this article were found at the
Department of
Defense's Gulflink site.
To read or print documents:
1.go to www.gulflink.osd.mil
2.click on "Declassified Documents" on the left side of the front page
3.the next page is entitled "Browse Recently Declassified Documents"
4.click on "search" under "Declassifed Documents" on the left side of that
page
5.the next page is entitled "Search Recently Declassified Documents"
6.enter search terms such as "disease information effects of bombing"
7.click on the search button
8.the next page is entitled "Data Sources"
9.click on DIA
10.click on one of the titles
Its not the best-organized site on the Internet, but I have found
the folks at Gulflink to be helpful and responsive.
Thomas J. Nagy
Thomas J. Nagy teaches at the School of Business and Public Management
at George Washington University.
--
Kerry - two medals a silver and bronze star.
Bush? Well they don't give medals
for going AWOL, missing your medical and
getting grounded or falling off of a bar stool.
Kerry - a hero, Bush - a zero
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
26 Nov 2004 01:11:31 AM |
|
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In article <co6741$k7a@library2.airnews.net>,
wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
johac wrote:
In article <dford3-b1c67abe.0411240525.66b6d2d4@posting.google.com>,
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to have conducted lethal gas
experiments on political prisoners in the 1970s that were still
happening as recently as 2002.
Let's see. North Koreans gas political prisoners. North Koreans are
Communists. Communists are atheists. Therefore, all atheists are North
Korean Communists who gas political prisoners.
Is that what you are trying to tell us? Nice logic, kid.
So if NK kills political prisoners its bad, but if the US kills millions by
desroying anation's water supply that'sOK and we can vote for the SOBs
that do this with clear consience.
Some people believe that if atheists do something bad, it is bad because
they are atheists. If xtians do something as bad or worse, it is good
because they are xtians. If millions of Iraqis died because we destroyed
their water supply, it must be 'God's Will'.
http://www.progressive.org/0801issue/nagy0901.html
<snip article>
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Which raises the question: Can a people that believes more fervently
in theVirgin Birth than in evolution still be called an Enlightened
nation?-Garry Wills, New York Times 11/04/04
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
25 Nov 2004 09:27:44 PM |
|
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wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote in
news:co6741$k7a@library2.airnews.net:
johac wrote:
In article <dford3-b1c67abe.0411240525.66b6d2d4@posting.google.com>,
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
----
N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
----
SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to have conducted lethal
gas experiments on political prisoners in the 1970s that were still
happening as recently as 2002.
Let's see. North Koreans gas political prisoners. North Koreans are
Communists. Communists are atheists. Therefore, all atheists are
North Korean Communists who gas political prisoners.
Is that what you are trying to tell us? Nice logic, kid.
So if NK kills political prisoners its bad, but if the US kills
millions by desroying anation's water supply that'sOK and we can vote
for the SOBs that do this with clear consience.
http://www.progressive.org/0801issue/nagy0901.html
The Secret Behind the Sanctions
How the U.S. Intentionally Destroyed Iraq's Water Supply
by Thomas J. Nagy
These are, of course, the same sanctions that were supposed to be
"containing" Saddam, and that we lifted them by finally invading and
disposing of Saddam's regime.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Save Your Dixie Cups, The South Will Rise Again!
.
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| User: "Charles & Mambo" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
25 Nov 2004 10:26:00 PM |
|
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Fred Stone wrote:
These are, of course, the same sanctions that were supposed to be
"containing" Saddam, and that we lifted them by finally invading and
disposing of Saddam's regime.
Give it a rest, will you? Fucking white trash.
--
Come down off the cross
We can use the wood
Tom Waits, Come On Up To The House
.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
26 Nov 2004 03:40:52 AM |
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Fred Stone wrote:
wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote in
news:co6741$k7a@library2.airnews.net:
johac wrote:
In article <dford3-b1c67abe.0411240525.66b6d2d4@posting.google.com>,
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
----
N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
----
SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to have conducted lethal
gas experiments on political prisoners in the 1970s that were still
happening as recently as 2002.
Let's see. North Koreans gas political prisoners. North Koreans are
Communists. Communists are atheists. Therefore, all atheists are
North Korean Communists who gas political prisoners.
Is that what you are trying to tell us? Nice logic, kid.
So if NK kills political prisoners its bad, but if the US kills
millions by desroying anation's water supply that'sOK and we can vote
for the SOBs that do this with clear consience.
http://www.progressive.org/0801issue/nagy0901.html
The Secret Behind the Sanctions
How the U.S. Intentionally Destroyed Iraq's Water Supply
by Thomas J. Nagy
These are, of course, the same sanctions that were supposed to be
"containing" Saddam, and that we lifted them by finally invading and
disposing of Saddam's regime.
Of course killing 2 millon Iraqis is OK,
Destroying their water systems a war crime is OK if you
blather how bad
Saddam was.
Not.
And its OK to vote for scumbags that supported Saddam all
thoes years he was killing people.
When did they start caring about that? When Saddam had no
WMDs and their lies needed cover.
We sure didn't care as long it was killing Iraqis.
That was good when we do it, bad whenSaddam does it.
We killed far more thanhim, but that's good.
It would kill you to say "It was evil to bomb their water supplies."
Wouldn't it?
It would kill you to admit we did evil.
That killing tow millions with sanctions we knew would kill many was evil.
You are not going to admit to that truth are you?
We killed far more than Saddam did, callously, knowingly,
and its no secret.
And you don't even care. Not even a little bit.
All you care about this is mentioning it to get Bush of the hook for being
the biggest liar on two legs in Washington.
Too bad we weren't moral enough to end this years ago when we liberals
started complaining bitterly about these sanctions and war crimes.
Two million dead Iraqis, mostly children didn't do anything.
Reagan, Bush, the Congress and Saddam. All evil no difference betweenthem.
Baathists and Republicans, one and the same, all evil.
All that time, all those deaths, not one GOP leader stood
up and said, this is evil we should not do this.
Not one.
And you don't want to admit it.
Moral failure.
--
Kerry - two medals a silver and bronze star.
Bush? Well they don't give medals
for going AWOL, missing your medical and
getting grounded or falling off of a bar stool.
Kerry - a hero, Bush - a zero
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "A. Carlson" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
24 Nov 2004 02:28:47 PM |
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On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:11:57 +0000 (UTC), (david
ford) wrote:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
<<Clip details of gassing prisoners>>
You do realize of course that Nazi Germany was religious, don't you?
Anti-Semitism, which has distinctly religious roots, was used to great
effect by the Nazi regime to influence a population that was split
about evenly between Catholics and Protestants.
Alex
.
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| User: "tim gueguen" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
24 Nov 2004 02:40:56 PM |
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"A. Carlson" <amcarls@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:g7s9q0l3kmd7al6m5fv5dvhq66m505hfo0@4ax.com...
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:11:57 +0000 (UTC), (david
ford) wrote:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
<<Clip details of gassing prisoners>>
You do realize of course that Nazi Germany was religious, don't you?
Anti-Semitism, which has distinctly religious roots, was used to great
effect by the Nazi regime to influence a population that was split
about evenly between Catholics and Protestants.
And it could be claimed that North Koreans are religious. Only the
religious figure they worship is not God, or the traditional deities of
Korea, but the late "Great Leader" Kim Il Sung.
tim gueguen 101867
.
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| User: "A. Carlson" |
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| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
24 Nov 2004 05:09:12 PM |
|
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On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:40:56 +0000 (UTC), tim gueguen
<tgueguen@shaw.ca> wrote:
"A. Carlson" <amcarls@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:g7s9q0l3kmd7al6m5fv5dvhq66m505hfo0@4ax.com...
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:11:57 +0000 (UTC), (david
ford) wrote:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
<<Clip details of gassing prisoners>>
You do realize of course that Nazi Germany was religious, don't you?
Anti-Semitism, which has distinctly religious roots, was used to great
effect by the Nazi regime to influence a population that was split
about evenly between Catholics and Protestants.
And it could be claimed that North Koreans are religious. Only the
religious figure they worship is not God, or the traditional deities of
Korea, but the late "Great Leader" Kim Il Sung.
And now they worship his only begotten son, "Dear Leader" Kim Jong Il.
(I love listening to their propaganda radio broadcasts on shortwave)
Alex
.
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| User: "Bobby D. Bryant" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
24 Nov 2004 08:43:30 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, (david ford) wrote:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to have conducted lethal gas
experiments on political prisoners in the 1970s that were still
happening as recently as 2002.
Re your subject line, are you unaware of the experiments the USA has
conducted on its own unwitting soldiers?
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
.
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| User: "Georgia on my Mind" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
25 Nov 2004 03:55:47 AM |
|
|
"Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:co27fp$nnh$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, (david ford) wrote:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to have conducted lethal gas
experiments on political prisoners in the 1970s that were still
happening as recently as 2002.
Re your subject line, are you unaware of the experiments the USA has
conducted on its own unwitting soldiers?
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
Not to mention the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, which was conducted on
unsuspecting civilians, and spanned thirty years.
--
Georgia on my Mind
(the ÿ is back, and a wayfarer still)
.
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| User: "Chris Thompson" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
24 Nov 2004 11:06:41 AM |
|
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(Bobby D. Bryant) wrote in
news:co27fp$nnh$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu:
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, (david ford) wrote:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to have conducted
lethal gas experiments on political prisoners in the 1970s that were
still happening as recently as 2002.
Re your subject line, are you unaware of the experiments the USA has
conducted on its own unwitting soldiers?
And also the UK, which happens to have an established religion, IIANM.
Chris
.
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|
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| User: "david ford" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
25 Nov 2004 04:44:39 PM |
|
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AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<slrncqc4cd.qb.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net>...
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 david ford < > wrote:
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<slrncq9jlr.17d.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net>...
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 Chris Thompson <rockwallaby@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote:
bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu (Bobby D. Bryant) wrote in news:co27fp$nnh$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu:
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, (david ford) wrote:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on prisoners
By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to have conducted
lethal gas experiments on political prisoners in the 1970s that were
still happening as recently as 2002.
Re your subject line, are you unaware of the experiments the USA has
conducted on its own unwitting soldiers?
And also the UK, which happens to have an established religion, IIANM.
And Canada as well.
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=department/press/chem_dnd_back
or
http://tinyurl.com/5ybmf
Ah well, another rhetorical ploy backfires on David Ford.
Do you agree with Bell that [Bell]"beetles and daisies... are much
more complicated than anything that human ingenuity has so far managed
to devise"?
Catshark already busted your quote mining.
Sounds serious.
I take it thought that you back
away from your premise on this thread, and are trying to switch topics.
Your rhetorical games never end, David.
I guess not.
Aaron, do you agree with Bell that [Bell]"beetles and daisies... are much
more complicated than anything that human ingenuity has so far managed
to devise"?
Do you think beetles and daisies have the (false) appearance of having
been the workproduct of mind/ intelligence?
Bell, Graham. 1997. _Selection: The Mechanism of Evolution_ (USA:
Chapman & Hall), 699pp. From the back cover:
Graham Bell is Molson Professor of Genetics and the Director of
the Redpath Museum at McGill University in Montreal. He is a
Fellow of the Royal Society of Canada, and a member of the
Society for the Study of Evolution, the European Society for
Evolutionary Biology, and the Linnean Society. His previous
books include _The Masterpiece of Nature_, an extensive account
of the evolutionary biology of sex.
On xvii:
Although we are now well into the second century of Darwinism,
the theory that Darwin and Wallace announced in 1858 has not yet
made much progress beyond a small coterie of professional
biologists. The reason is that it is jarringly unfamiliar to our
normal experience of how things come to be. Few of us would be
able to design a light bulb or a lathe, still fewer the computer and
its attendant software with which this sentence is being written.
But we all have a clear idea of what is meant by "design", and we
readily, too readily, transfer this notion to the natural world. A
light bulb or a lathe are prefigured in the mind, and constructed
according to a plan. It is entirely reasonable to assume that
beetles
and daisies must be constructed after the same fashion, especially
because they are much more complicated than anything that human
ingenuity has so far managed to devise. There is, however, a
second route to complex organization, through the selection of
random variants that propagate nearly exact copies of themselves.
It is of very little consequence in our daily lives, because if
[sic] is so much more laborious and expensive than deliberate
design.
However, it is another way of constructing things. Indeed, so far
as I know, it is the only other way of constructing things that we
have ever been able to imagine.
<snip>
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| User: "Chris Thompson" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
25 Nov 2004 05:00:27 PM |
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(david ford) wrote in
news:dford3-b1c67abe.0411251458.7eded865@posting.google.com:
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<slrncqc4cd.qb.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net>...
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 david ford < > wrote:
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<slrncq9jlr.17d.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net>...
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 Chris Thompson <rockwallaby@REMOVEhotmail.com>
wrote:
bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu (Bobby D. Bryant) wrote in
news:co27fp$nnh$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu:
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, (david ford) wrote:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
---------------------------------------------------------------
------- ----- N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on
prisoners By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
---------------------------------------------------------------
------- ----- SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to
have conducted lethal gas experiments on political prisoners
in the 1970s that were still happening as recently as 2002.
Re your subject line, are you unaware of the experiments the
USA has conducted on its own unwitting soldiers?
And also the UK, which happens to have an established religion,
IIANM.
And Canada as well.
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?
source=department/press/ch
em_dnd_back or
http://tinyurl.com/5ybmf
Ah well, another rhetorical ploy backfires on David Ford.
Do you agree with Bell that [Bell]"beetles and daisies... are much
more complicated than anything that human ingenuity has so far
managed to devise"?
Catshark already busted your quote mining.
Sounds serious.
I take it thought that you back
away from your premise on this thread, and are trying to switch
topics.
Your rhetorical games never end, David.
I guess not.
Aaron, do you agree with Bell that [Bell]"beetles and daisies... are
much more complicated than anything that human ingenuity has so far
managed to devise"?
Please explain why you think this is at all relevant.
Chris
.
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|
| User: "david ford" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
26 Nov 2004 10:50:53 AM |
|
|
Chris Thompson <rockwallaby@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Xns95ACB973CBFFDrockwallabyhotmailco@207.69.189.191>...
(david ford) wrote in news:dford3-b1c67abe.0411251458.7eded865@posting.google.com:
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<slrncqc4cd.qb.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net>...
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 david ford < > wrote:
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<slrncq9jlr.17d.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net>...
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 Chris Thompson <rockwallaby@REMOVEhotmail.com>
wrote:
bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu (Bobby D. Bryant) wrote in
news:co27fp$nnh$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu:
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, (david ford) wrote:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-5086r.htm
The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
---------------------------------------------------------------
------- ----- N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on
prisoners By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
---------------------------------------------------------------
------- ----- SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to
have conducted lethal gas experiments on political prisoners
in the 1970s that were still happening as recently as 2002.
Re your subject line, are you unaware of the experiments the
USA has conducted on its own unwitting soldiers?
And also the UK, which happens to have an established religion,
IIANM.
And Canada as well.
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?
source=department/press/ch
em_dnd_back or
http://tinyurl.com/5ybmf
Ah well, another rhetorical ploy backfires on David Ford.
Do you agree with Bell that [Bell]"beetles and daisies... are much
more complicated than anything that human ingenuity has so far
managed to devise"?
Catshark already busted your quote mining.
Sounds serious.
I take it thought that you back
away from your premise on this thread, and are trying to switch
topics.
Your rhetorical games never end, David.
I guess not.
Aaron, do you agree with Bell that [Bell]"beetles and daisies... are
much more complicated than anything that human ingenuity has so far
managed to devise"?
Please explain why you think this is at all relevant.
Please explain why you think I should explain why I think this is at all relevant.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Chris Thompson" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
26 Nov 2004 12:12:49 PM |
|
|
(david ford) wrote in
news:dford3-b1c67abe.0411260904.380715ef@posting.google.com:
Chris Thompson <rockwallaby@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<Xns95ACB973CBFFDrockwallabyhotmailco@207.69.189.191>...
(david ford) wrote in
news:dford3-b1c67abe.0411251458.7eded865@posting.google.com:
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<slrncqc4cd.qb.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net>...
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 david ford < > wrote:
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:
<slrncq9jlr.17d.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net>...
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 Chris Thompson
<rockwallaby@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote:
bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu (Bobby D. Bryant) wrote in
news:co27fp$nnh$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu:
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, (david ford) wrote:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-
5086r.h
tm The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
---------------------------------------------------------------
------- ----- N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on
prisoners By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
---------------------------------------------------------------
------- ----- SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to
have conducted lethal gas experiments on political
prisoners in the 1970s that were still happening as
recently as 2002.
Re your subject line, are you unaware of the experiments the
USA has conducted on its own unwitting soldiers?
And also the UK, which happens to have an established
religion, IIANM.
And Canada as well.
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?
source=department/press/ch
em_dnd_back or
http://tinyurl.com/5ybmf
Ah well, another rhetorical ploy backfires on David Ford.
Do you agree with Bell that [Bell]"beetles and daisies... are
much more complicated than anything that human ingenuity has so
far managed to devise"?
Catshark already busted your quote mining.
Sounds serious.
I take it thought that you back
away from your premise on this thread, and are trying to switch
topics.
Your rhetorical games never end, David.
I guess not.
Aaron, do you agree with Bell that [Bell]"beetles and daisies...
are much more complicated than anything that human ingenuity has so
far managed to devise"?
Please explain why you think this is at all relevant.
Please explain why you think I should explain why I think this is at
all relevant.
Common courtesy springs to mind.
.
|
|
|
| User: "david ford" |
|
| Title: Re: Atheocracy's Science Experiments |
29 Nov 2004 08:10:42 PM |
|
|
Chris Thompson <rockwallaby@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Xns95AD88BD4AE60rockwallabyhotmailco@207.69.189.191>...
(david ford) wrote in news:dford3-b1c67abe.0411260904.380715ef@posting.google.com:
Chris Thompson <rockwallaby@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Xns95ACB973CBFFDrockwallabyhotmailco@207.69.189.191>...
(david ford) wrote in news:dford3-b1c67abe.0411251458.7eded865@posting.google.com:
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<slrncqc4cd.qb.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net>...
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 david ford < > wrote:
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news: <slrncq9jlr.17d.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net>...
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 Chris Thompson <rockwallaby@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote:
bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu (Bobby D. Bryant) wrote in news:co27fp$nnh$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu:
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, (david ford) wrote:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041124-121316-
5086r.h
tm The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
---------------------------------------------------------------
------- ----- N. Koreans detail deadly experiments on
prisoners By Jeremy Kirk
Published November 24, 2004
---------------------------------------------------------------
------- ----- SEOUL -- North Korean scientists are said to
have conducted lethal gas experiments on political
prisoners in the 1970s that were still happening as
recently as 2002.
Re your subject line, are you unaware of the experiments the
USA has conducted on its own unwitting soldiers?
And also the UK, which happens to have an established
religion, IIANM.
And Canada as well.
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?
source=department/press/ch
em_dnd_back or
http://tinyurl.com/5ybmf
Ah well, another rhetorical ploy backfires on David Ford.
Do you agree with Bell that [Bell]"beetles and daisies... are
much more complicated than anything that human ingenuity has so
far managed to devise"?
Catshark already busted your quote mining.
Sounds serious.
I take it thought that you back
away from your premise on this thread, and are trying to switch
topics.
Your rhetorical games never end, David.
I guess not.
Aaron, do you agree with Bell that [Bell]"beetles and daisies...
are much more complicated than anything that human ingenuity has so
far managed to devise"?
Please explain why you think this is at all relevant.
Please explain why you think I should explain why I think this is at
all relevant.
Common courtesy springs to mind.
Does this remark by Aaron comport with [CT]"common courtesy"?:
[AC]"I have too much on my plate right now to have some theistic
***** [i.e. df] trying to bait me"
If "no," do you think Aaron should do anything, and if so, what?
Ref for the Aaron quote:
Do you think that the nanotools 1999 Paul Davies mentions exhibit the
(false) appearance of having been the product of mind/ intelligence?;
was Jesus Christ a [AC]"liar" engaging in [AC]"deceit" when he claimed
to be God?
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0411271726.32201267%40posting.google.com
.
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