| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"ohoe" |
| Date: |
24 Apr 2004 09:32:12 PM |
| Object: |
Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
Athiest nations are historically documented failures
By Bruce Christensen
March 18, 2004
Dr. Duva: You want an atheist nation. The world has tried that:
Russia, China, Pre-WWII Germany, Vietnam, North Korea, Cambodia, Laos,
Nigeria, Cuba, Nicaragua and Columbia. What has happened in those
countries? Corrupt men have been allowed to perform atrocities and no
one has been in a position to stop them. Is that what you want for our
country? I don't think so. But why would you support a change that has
historically never worked in implementation? It would appear it is
because you disagree with the basis of our society, which is centered
in a belief in God.
The root problem with an atheist society is that there is no common
ground upon which to build said society. Mutual advantage does work to
an extent, but it is even more vicious than our capitalist society
that works to its own advantage. Because without fear of God, what
reason is there not to murder, steal, lie, cheat, etc? Fear of
retribution by individuals in the society and fear of retribution by
the state society. But what if the person is a high-ranking official
in that state? They control the state/society, and so they need merely
to remove individuals opposed to them, and they can then perform said
atrocities unchecked. Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Tse-tung and Hitler come to
mind. Without a basic set of moral beliefs upon which to base a
society, the leaders of such a nation have no fear of offending a
higher power -- and the people are not motivated to revolt because
risking their lives is risking all, as there is nothing else, whereas
those who believe in God believe that they may risk their lives, but
they do not feel that they are risking their eternal welfare.
All of the other societal issues go away once the people are content
with their standing with God. Abortion, sexual aberration, unwed
pregnancy, and homosexuality become non-issues, because those who
truly believe in God believe in abstinence before marriage (one of
God's institutions) and fidelity after marriage, which means that a
home will exist where a child can be welcomed to the world. Drugs,
overeating, and other psychological forms of pleasure-seeking will
become unnecessary, as people will no longer feel a need to
artificially boost their psychological state, being already happy in
their view of the world.
Now people aren't perfect, so these problems will exist and will be
largely caused by fear that they may not be happy after this life is
over, so they might as well get as much pleasure as they can while
they are here. But if that one single issue were resolved, then what
other problems would a society have? Envying, theft, lying, lawsuits,
etc. would be unnecessary because either parties would live without
offending each other, or those who were wronged would say to
themselves something like, "Let God judge between me and thee." They
would leave justice to God and live to the best of their situation.
Utopian, I know. Isn't it wonderful? That is our hope for America and
for the entire world. It would eliminate competition, rather than
making it more brutal, as state-sponsored atheism has in the past.
Why? Because people would have choices. They could do wrong, but they
could choose not to. Those that have no sense of right or wrong can
only choose to help themselves.
Now let me save those of you, who would respond to the contrary, the
need for rebuttal. First, an argument could be made that this is
America, not China, Germany, or any other of those countries listed at
the beginning of this article. That is correct. We live in a different
land with different people. But with such a broad range of peoples
included in the examples, do you suppose America could succeed where
so many others have failed? This is an amazing country, but removing
the backbone of belief in God, it would likely not have the strength.
Not to mention that the majority of the theistic people, which
includes many of the best and brightest, would leave rather than see
America so disgraced.
Second, a society could be built with common ideals that do not
require a belief in God. Belief in personal freedom or liberty will
not do, as each person would reject the society's right to infringe on
such, which is necessary to regulate the society. A desire to work
together for common benefit is not enough; it has no defense against
betrayal inside the society, because each member would be justified in
doing what would help that individual, the true basis of common
benefit. Desire to live good lives even fails without a reference
definition of what a 'good' life is. Belief in God gives all of these
matters a natural incentive or disincentive and no other belief does
so in a similar manner.
Third, my argument that positive belief of eternal standing in
relation to God will remedy all other problems is without basis in
fact. I have already allowed that there will likely be some in any
human society that feel that they will not be judged favorably in the
afterlife or that they will not be happy in that state. This will keep
some problems from being remedied. But ultimately, it will be better
than the alternative of an atheistic society, which will breed
problems as people blindly seek happiness and, not knowing where to
find it, seek pleasure instead.
http://www.arbiteronline.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/03/18/40596fef51609
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| User: "sol" |
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| Title: Re: Czech Communists murdered 250,000 Sudeten German Christians was: Re: The world's most atheist nation is not failure ( Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures) |
29 Apr 2004 07:52:57 AM |
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What are you talking about? The communists were not in power in 1945 when
reprisals against Sudeten Germans and other German civilians took place. In
any case, the reprisals were conducted by Czech Christians against German
Christians, so just what is your point?
And your figures are way wrong. Obviously, because the reprisals by Czechs
against the German civilian population took place in the chaotic last days
of the war, it is difficult to estimate how many were murdered, but the
estimates I saw were about 20,000 maximum, compared to 100,000 Czech
civilians killed during the war by German forces. In either case though,
both nations were Christian at the time.
Communists did not take over Czechoslovakia until 1948, by which time there
were no Sudeten Germans left.
"easttrader67" <easttrader67@metacrawler.com> wrote in message
news:f190360e.0404290417.20349a7a@posting.google.com...
dathi3@hotmail.com (DaThi) wrote in message
news:<bc252fb2.0404271720.620c63e4@posting.google.com>...
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:<1doo801r1hu41mh3otlk56k82nhnamm579@4ax.com>...
Lo, many moons past, on Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:08:41 +0100, a stranger
called by some "Malcolm" <malcolm@55bank.freeserve.co.uk> came forth
and told this tale in alt.atheism
The other factor is that the Czech republic has only recently emerged
from
communism. The communist economic policies were disastrous, but their
social
policies were much more moderate. In particular sexual licence was
discouraged. The Czechs haven't had time for the negative effects of
Western
permissiveness to work through. For instance it takes a generation or
two
until the divorce rate begins to influence the academic performance
of
schools.
You have got to be kidding me. The Czech Republic (and Czechoslovakia
before) were long bastions of liberal thought and action.. Where the
hell do you think the term Bohemian comes from? Prague is the
Berkeley of Europe. More accurately, Berkeley is the Prague of the
Americas.
Excellent comparison! The Czechs are as communist as the
"progressives" from Berkeley, but, unlike them, they had an
opportunity to put their beliefs into practice.
The Sudeten Germans were Christian people who peacefully lived in
Bohemia for thousands of years, until 1945. If you have strong
stomach, read what happened to them.
first of all Sudeten Germans are Christian , thats the only think You
are right.
They didnt live there for "thousands of years", but beside this their
behaviour(of course not all of them but definitely a very high
percentage) during WWII was in no way "peacefull".
Just to mention something like that shows extreme high degree of
ignorance.
Anyway, there is no justification for violence against German
civilians after WWII but it was nothing about religion, there was
absence of any moral on both sides. You just have to know some hard
historic facts, in case You really try to prove something.
The same horrors happened to Russian and Ukrainian Christians - and
will happen to American Christians too, if the university liberals,
leftists and marxists will ever get to power.
I am christian, but we seem not to share the same religion. There is
no evidence, that "university liberals" are more dangerous than people
like You.
they are probably more educated, but that seems not to be a big
achievement.
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| User: "blackpanther69" |
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| Title: Re: Czech Communists murdered 250,000 Sudeten German Christians was: Re: The world's most atheist nation is not failure ( Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures) |
22 May 2004 11:42:12 PM |
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They deserved worse!
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| User: "ShrikeBack" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
25 Apr 2004 02:29:56 PM |
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(ohoe) wrote in message news:<a5a860fc.0404241832.2f13fbe9@posting.google.com>...
Athiest nations are historically documented failures
By Bruce Christensen
It is not their love for us, but the impotence of their love
for us that prevents modern Christians from burning us at
the stake.
-Nietzsche
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| User: "Elysium" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
01 May 2004 05:11:24 AM |
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(ohoe) wrote in message news:<a5a860fc.0404241832.2f13fbe9@posting.google.com>...
Athiest nations are historically documented failures
The core of your argument, seemingly, is that nations can only be
successful with a moral foundation based on some kind of divine being.
While I don't wish to go into the historical arguments, which have
been raised elsewhere, I do wish to point out that any form of divine
mandate will necessarily be interpreted by the people on the ground,
as it were. Since your God is unlikely to step and take the reins of
government himself, he must necessarily rely on human intermediaries.
These will be governing according to internal beliefs about what is
right and wrong, which are derived from placing moral value on the
commandments of a God. Any such assignment of moral value is
necessarily done by reference to an external factor, such as for some
atheists supposed human rights. And this is the crucial part: all such
assignments are carried out by the individual, and are thus derived
from their choices to place moral value on particular rules or things.
It is therefore the case that both an atheistic or religious nation
would be based on the choices of their leaders, and so any attempt to
claim that one system is better than the other is to simply
demonstrate one's own moral choices, rendering your argument invalid.
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| User: "Iain" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
27 Apr 2004 07:37:31 AM |
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(ohoe) wrote in message news:<a5a860fc.0404241832.2f13fbe9@posting.google.com>...
Athiest nations are historically documented failures
When I think of atheist nations, I think of Japan, Britain and France.
As for your revealing insight, if only the 9/11 terrorists hadn't been
atheists they'd have been too afraid of God to....oh wait...they
weren't atheist at all were they?
<snip abstract ignorant mislead irrelevant idiocy>
~Iain
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| User: "Tracy White" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
25 Apr 2004 01:22:53 AM |
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Dr. Duva: You want an atheist nation. The world has tried that:
Russia, China, Pre-WWII Germany, Vietnam, North Korea, Cambodia, Laos,
Nigeria, Cuba, Nicaragua and Columbia. What has happened in those
countries? Corrupt men have been allowed to perform atrocities and no
one has been in a position to stop them. Is that what you want for our
Indead. Let's talk about Torquemada then, or perhaps the Salem witch
trials. Evil exists in all men, and membership in the Christian
religeon is not a guarenteed shield against corruption.
All nations fail, no matter the foundation. The populace may remain,
but no government can survive forever.
The root problem with an atheist society is that there is no common
ground upon which to build said society. Mutual advantage does work to
And what of a diverse society? Is there a common ground between
buddhists, Christian, Muslim, a Wiccan? I would say that there is
plenty of common ground between atheists and non-atheists. All want
to live their lives, to prosper, maybe raise a family... I cannot see
how you can say there is no common ground.
mind. Without a basic set of moral beliefs upon which to base a
society, the leaders of such a nation have no fear of offending a
Here again, these leaders have moral beliefs. Corrupt ones. But we
have evidence of men in the church abusing their power even though
they are men of God. Their morals are corrupt to. Once again, belief
in God does not guarentee protection from corruption.
etc. would be unnecessary because either parties would live without
offending each other, or those who were wronged would say to
themselves something like, "Let God judge between me and thee." They
would leave justice to God and live to the best of their situation.
Utopian, I know. Isn't it wonderful? That is our hope for America and
for the entire world. It would eliminate competition, rather than
This is not our hope for America. It is not our hope for the entire
world. It is your wish, your desire, and you seek to push this idea on
others. You are competing your idea, I might add, instead of
practicing what you preach and letting God be the judge. Competition
is necessary. It can be taken too far, yes. But without it we are
relagated to the status of jellyfish; simply floating in the sea, not
striving to do better, because we need not compete to do so.
Why? Because people would have choices. They could do wrong, but they
could choose not to. Those that have no sense of right or wrong can
only choose to help themselves.
People have choices now. They can do right or wrong. They can choose
not to now, without your silly sermon on how we can reach utopia on
earth.
definition of what a 'good' life is. Belief in God gives all of these
matters a natural incentive or disincentive and no other belief does
so in a similar manner.
Complete claptrap. I have lived my thirty-two years without belief in
God, and my morals and ethics are quite a bit better than many
believers in God that I have had the circumstances to meet. I choose
to do good because it is the RIGHT thing to do. I choose not to kill
or harm the man that stole from me because it was not my right to take
his life. Are you going to state that these ethics are false because
they are not based in a belief in God?
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
26 Apr 2004 06:33:10 PM |
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Tracy White wrote:
Complete claptrap. I have lived my thirty-two years without belief in
God, and my morals and ethics are quite a bit better than many
believers in God that I have had the circumstances to meet. I choose
to do good because it is the RIGHT thing to do. I choose not to kill
or harm the man that stole from me because it was not my right to take
his life. Are you going to state that these ethics are false because
they are not based in a belief in God?
Without an authoritative foundation, how do you determine right
from wrong? For instance: aside from whatever rights you
imagine for yourself, how do you know it is morally right not to
harm the man that steals from you?
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
27 Apr 2004 06:32:05 AM |
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In alt.atheism on Mon, 26 Apr 2004 23:33:10 GMT, Roy Jose Lorr
<mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> let us all know that:
Tracy White wrote:
Complete claptrap. I have lived my thirty-two years without belief in
God, and my morals and ethics are quite a bit better than many
believers in God that I have had the circumstances to meet. I choose
to do good because it is the RIGHT thing to do. I choose not to kill
or harm the man that stole from me because it was not my right to take
his life. Are you going to state that these ethics are false because
they are not based in a belief in God?
Without an authoritative foundation, how do you determine right
from wrong? For instance: aside from whatever rights you
imagine for yourself, how do you know it is morally right not to
harm the man that steals from you?
If someone steals from you, that person has initiated force
against you/ If that person gets hurt in the processes of you getting
your stuff back, then it happens.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "grungo" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
26 Apr 2004 07:43:05 PM |
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Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<408D9C2F.EF3606D5@worldnet.att.net>:
Tracy White wrote:
Complete claptrap. I have lived my thirty-two years without belief in
God, and my morals and ethics are quite a bit better than many
believers in God that I have had the circumstances to meet. I choose
to do good because it is the RIGHT thing to do. I choose not to kill
or harm the man that stole from me because it was not my right to take
his life. Are you going to state that these ethics are false because
they are not based in a belief in God?
Without an authoritative foundation, how do you determine right
from wrong?
How do you determine what is an "authoritative foundation"?
Look at http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm - which one of
the multitude of holy books there is the true revelation
from god ?
For instance: aside from whatever rights you
imagine for yourself, how do you know it is morally right not to
harm the man that steals from you?
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
27 Apr 2004 06:37:26 AM |
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"grungo" <grungo@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:o4br80lhivlo4og5col2a06f13pj4i93ec@4ax.com...
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<408D9C2F.EF3606D5@worldnet.att.net>:
Tracy White wrote:
Complete claptrap. I have lived my thirty-two years without belief in
God, and my morals and ethics are quite a bit better than many
believers in God that I have had the circumstances to meet. I choose
to do good because it is the RIGHT thing to do. I choose not to kill
or harm the man that stole from me because it was not my right to take
his life. Are you going to state that these ethics are false because
they are not based in a belief in God?
Without an authoritative foundation, how do you determine right
from wrong?
How do you determine what is an "authoritative foundation"?
Look at http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm - which one of
the multitude of holy books there is the true revelation
from god ?
Well, all the Crowley ones of course !!
http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/index.htm
:)
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
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| User: "Mary Hogan" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
26 Apr 2004 08:15:13 PM |
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When the doctor pronounces you terminally ill with two weeks to
live....then...ask me that question.
"grungo" <grungo@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:o4br80lhivlo4og5col2a06f13pj4i93ec@4ax.com...
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<408D9C2F.EF3606D5@worldnet.att.net>:
Tracy White wrote:
Complete claptrap. I have lived my thirty-two years without belief in
God, and my morals and ethics are quite a bit better than many
believers in God that I have had the circumstances to meet. I choose
to do good because it is the RIGHT thing to do. I choose not to kill
or harm the man that stole from me because it was not my right to take
his life. Are you going to state that these ethics are false because
they are not based in a belief in God?
Without an authoritative foundation, how do you determine right
from wrong?
How do you determine what is an "authoritative foundation"?
Look at http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm - which one of
the multitude of holy books there is the true revelation
from god ?
For instance: aside from whatever rights you
imagine for yourself, how do you know it is morally right not to
harm the man that steals from you?
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.
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| User: "Mary Hogan" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
26 Apr 2004 08:16:36 PM |
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How do you determine what is an "authoritative foundation"?
Yours is silt...mine is rock!
"Mary Hogan" <hoogy@zoominternet.net> wrote in message
news:408db420_3@corp.newsgroups.com...
When the doctor pronounces you terminally ill with two weeks to
live....then...ask me that question.
"grungo" <grungo@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:o4br80lhivlo4og5col2a06f13pj4i93ec@4ax.com...
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<408D9C2F.EF3606D5@worldnet.att.net>:
Tracy White wrote:
Complete claptrap. I have lived my thirty-two years without belief in
God, and my morals and ethics are quite a bit better than many
believers in God that I have had the circumstances to meet. I choose
to do good because it is the RIGHT thing to do. I choose not to kill
or harm the man that stole from me because it was not my right to
take
his life. Are you going to state that these ethics are false because
they are not based in a belief in God?
Without an authoritative foundation, how do you determine right
from wrong?
How do you determine what is an "authoritative foundation"?
Look at http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm - which one of
the multitude of holy books there is the true revelation
from god ?
For instance: aside from whatever rights you
imagine for yourself, how do you know it is morally right not to
harm the man that steals from you?
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
27 Apr 2004 06:37:56 AM |
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"Mary Hogan" <hoogy@zoominternet.net> wrote in message
news:408db473$1_3@corp.newsgroups.com...
How do you determine what is an "authoritative foundation"?
Yours is silt...mine is rock!
Crack is no good for ya love.......
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.
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| User: "Tracy White" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
28 Apr 2004 12:52:46 AM |
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Yours is silt...mine is rock!
You avoid answering questions and try and change the topic. You insult
others. I'm done with you.
Have the best day ever!
.
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| User: "Mary Hogan" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
26 Apr 2004 06:55:52 PM |
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Tracy
You ought to at least find out about the Torah.... Even if you aren't a
Jew...I'm not a Jew...but...
Chabad 90210 http://www.beverlyhillschabad.com/torah-chumash/torah.htm
Just listen to Rabbi Shusterman...go to Torah and start at the
beginning...you are going to hear real beginners and a few....level growers
there...
At least learn..
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:408D9C2F.EF3606D5@worldnet.att.net...
Tracy White wrote:
Complete claptrap. I have lived my thirty-two years without belief in
God, and my morals and ethics are quite a bit better than many
believers in God that I have had the circumstances to meet. I choose
to do good because it is the RIGHT thing to do. I choose not to kill
or harm the man that stole from me because it was not my right to take
his life. Are you going to state that these ethics are false because
they are not based in a belief in God?
Without an authoritative foundation, how do you determine right
from wrong? For instance: aside from whatever rights you
imagine for yourself, how do you know it is morally right not to
harm the man that steals from you?
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.
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| User: "grungo" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
26 Apr 2004 07:41:52 PM |
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"Mary Hogan" <hoogy@zoominternet.net> wrote in article
<408da187$1_3@corp.newsgroups.com>:
Tracy
You ought to at least find out about the Torah.... Even if you aren't a
Jew...I'm not a Jew...but...
Chabad 90210 http://www.beverlyhillschabad.com/torah-chumash/torah.htm
Just listen to Rabbi Shusterman...go to Torah and start at the
beginning...you are going to hear real beginners and a few....level growers
there...
At least learn..
You ought to find out about Oahspe, even if you aren't a
Kosmist.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/oah/index.htm
At least learn ! It's a word of god - first one written on a
typewriter !
(who said that old Jehovah is against progress?)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/oah/oah/index.htm
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:408D9C2F.EF3606D5@worldnet.att.net...
Tracy White wrote:
Complete claptrap. I have lived my thirty-two years without belief in
God, and my morals and ethics are quite a bit better than many
believers in God that I have had the circumstances to meet. I choose
to do good because it is the RIGHT thing to do. I choose not to kill
or harm the man that stole from me because it was not my right to take
his life. Are you going to state that these ethics are false because
they are not based in a belief in God?
Without an authoritative foundation, how do you determine right
from wrong? For instance: aside from whatever rights you
imagine for yourself, how do you know it is morally right not to
harm the man that steals from you?
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.
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| User: "Mary Hogan" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
26 Apr 2004 06:37:39 PM |
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You forgot one critical thing...it is based on levels of getting to know
God...
This is your life..it is not a test with a bell curve.
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:408D9C2F.EF3606D5@worldnet.att.net...
Tracy White wrote:
Complete claptrap. I have lived my thirty-two years without belief in
God, and my morals and ethics are quite a bit better than many
believers in God that I have had the circumstances to meet. I choose
to do good because it is the RIGHT thing to do. I choose not to kill
or harm the man that stole from me because it was not my right to take
his life. Are you going to state that these ethics are false because
they are not based in a belief in God?
Without an authoritative foundation, how do you determine right
from wrong? For instance: aside from whatever rights you
imagine for yourself, how do you know it is morally right not to
harm the man that steals from you?
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
26 Apr 2004 06:42:10 PM |
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On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 19:37:39 -0400, "Mary Hogan"
<hoogy@zoominternet.net> wrote:
You forgot one critical thing...it is based on levels of getting to know
God...
Why the heck would we want to get to know the voices in your head?
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| User: "Mary Hogan" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
26 Apr 2004 07:09:26 PM |
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Because....I know what I'm talking about... Your anger is futile... It
doesn't get you anything but more embedded in your body...ouch!!
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:qh7r80l4q79ic2vcg9dodvs9kla6s5ph7p@4ax.com...
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 19:37:39 -0400, "Mary Hogan"
<hoogy@zoominternet.net> wrote:
You forgot one critical thing...it is based on levels of getting to know
God...
Why the heck would we want to get to know the voices in your head?
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
27 Apr 2004 06:36:07 AM |
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"Mary Hogan" <hoogy@zoominternet.net> wrote in message
news:408da4b5_3@corp.newsgroups.com...
Because....I know what I'm talking about... Your anger is futile... It
doesn't get you anything but more embedded in your body...ouch!!
Well I don't mind being 'Embedded in my body'
Where the ***** else would I be ???
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
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| User: "CKOMOROX" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
27 Apr 2004 07:44:14 PM |
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"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:408e459a$0$608$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Mary Hogan" <hoogy@zoominternet.net> wrote in message
news:408da4b5_3@corp.newsgroups.com...
Because....I know what I'm talking about... Your anger is futile... It
doesn't get you anything but more embedded in your body...ouch!!
Well I don't mind being 'Embedded in my body'
Where the ***** else would I be ???
Maybe she was thinking about her *****?
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
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| User: "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
25 Apr 2004 02:00:39 PM |
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Tracy White wrote:
Referring to proudly Atheist states.
Here again, these leaders have moral beliefs. Corrupt ones. But we
have evidence of men in the church abusing their power even though
they are men of God. Their morals are corrupt to. Once again, belief
in God does not guarentee protection from corruption.
That is of course true.
However
Can you provide counter examples?
i.e. a proudly atheistic state whose system is not riddled by
corruption.
Note that this is not the same as giving an example of a freedom
of choice, or theocratic state that you consider filled with corruption.
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| User: "Tracy White" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
26 Apr 2004 05:45:28 PM |
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i.e. a proudly atheistic state whose system is not riddled by
corruption.
Not a one. But I'm no expert or researcher on atheistic states.
How about a counter-counter example; can you name a proudly theistic
state whose system is not riddled by corruption?
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| User: "Kingssman" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
26 Apr 2004 11:20:50 PM |
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(Tracy White) wrote in message news:<f13d5e6.0404261445.66ee7eb5@posting.google.com>...
i.e. a proudly atheistic state whose system is not riddled by
corruption.
Not a one. But I'm no expert or researcher on atheistic states.
How about a counter-counter example; can you name a proudly theistic
state whose system is not riddled by corruption?
We had an example, The Taliban. They were a completely theistic
state, heck they forced people to pray, if you didn't follow their
religion, you were killed.
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| User: "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
27 Apr 2004 01:46:09 AM |
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Kingssman wrote:
whitet@blarg.net (Tracy White) wrote in message news:<f13d5e6.0404261445.66ee7eb5@posting.google.com>...
i.e. a proudly atheistic state whose system is not riddled by
corruption.
Not a one. But I'm no expert or researcher on atheistic states.
How about a counter-counter example; can you name a proudly theistic
state whose system is not riddled by corruption?
We had an example, The Taliban. They were a completely theistic
state, heck they forced people to pray, if you didn't follow their
religion, you were killed.
Does the answer to the 'is not riddled by corruption' part simply
depend on the fact that the state does not exist anymore?
i.e. didn't apply, while they did form an existing state? ;)
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| User: "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
26 Apr 2004 09:37:05 PM |
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Tracy White wrote:
i.e. a proudly atheistic state whose system is not riddled by
corruption.
Not a one. But I'm no expert or researcher on atheistic states.
How about a counter-counter example; can you name a proudly theistic
state whose system is not riddled by corruption?
I would wish to claim 'The Vatican'. However even they
are not as pure as the driven snow.
However the opposite, i.e. purity was never claimed for
non Atheist states. And also because Atheism is the end
point of a continuum and corruption is also a continuum
a counter-counter example would be irrelevant to the
thesis that all proudly atheistic states end up corrupt.
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| User: "Mary Hogan" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
26 Apr 2004 05:51:17 PM |
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What happens to an atheist when he dies.... You don't even want to
know...just the process of death is incredible..the soul has become so
embedded in the body..it will be like pulling a painful tooth out...for
weeks and months...just to let the neshama free. I would not want to be an
atheist at the time of death... Because when the spirit it finally
free...the atheist is faced only with himself...at his ugliest.... The sign
posted is....Hope died here!!!
"Tracy White" <whitet@blarg.net> wrote in message
news:f13d5e6.0404261445.66ee7eb5@posting.google.com...
i.e. a proudly atheistic state whose system is not riddled by
corruption.
Not a one. But I'm no expert or researcher on atheistic states.
How about a counter-counter example; can you name a proudly theistic
state whose system is not riddled by corruption?
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| User: "DeMaisonneuve" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
29 Apr 2004 11:20:00 PM |
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"Mary Hogan" <hoogy@zoominternet.net> wrote in message
news:408d9264_3@corp.newsgroups.com...
What happens to an atheist when he dies.... You don't even want to
know...just the process of death is incredible..the soul has become so
embedded in the body..it will be like pulling a painful tooth out...for
weeks and months...just to let the neshama free. I would not want to be
an
atheist at the time of death... Because when the spirit it finally
free...the atheist is faced only with himself...at his ugliest.... The
sign
posted is....Hope died here!!!
Why do you think that an atheist is ugly? Do you feel that your beliefs
makes you more clever? And by the way, what shadow of a demonstration do you
have to support the hypothesis of a spirit separated from the body.
Scientifics made experiments on the brain and demonstrated that by putting
an electric signal on a specific area of the brain, this generated the
feeling of a mystic experience on the subject. So, all that you feel that
makes you believe in the existence of a god is simply generated by your
brain. When you die, your brain stop working, and you just vanish. Sorry to
break your illusions and hopes.
"Tracy White" <whitet@blarg.net> wrote in message
news:f13d5e6.0404261445.66ee7eb5@posting.google.com...
i.e. a proudly atheistic state whose system is not riddled by
corruption.
Not a one. But I'm no expert or researcher on atheistic states.
How about a counter-counter example; can you name a proudly theistic
state whose system is not riddled by corruption?
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
30 Apr 2004 12:06:01 AM |
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"Mary Hogan" <hoogy@zoominternet.net> wrote in message
news:408d9264_3@corp.newsgroups.com...
What happens to an atheist when he dies.... You don't even want to
know...just the process of death is incredible..the soul has become so
embedded in the body..it will be like pulling a painful tooth out...for
weeks and months...just to let the neshama free.
It's hard to get the slippery neshama we had when I was a kid.
Back in the good old days the stuff was even slicker. Mark Twain committed
sins until his neshama was fat and slow, then he cornered it behind a door
and killed it. (With apologies to Mr. Clemmons.)
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| User: "Roger Andrews" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
28 Apr 2004 09:00:16 AM |
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"Mary Hogan" <hoogy@zoominternet.net> wrote in message news:<408d9264_3@corp.newsgroups.com>...
What happens to an atheist when he dies.... You don't even want to
know...just the process of death is incredible..the soul has become so
embedded in the body..it will be like pulling a painful tooth out...for
weeks and months...just to let the neshama free. I would not want to be an
atheist at the time of death... Because when the spirit it finally
free...the atheist is faced only with himself...at his ugliest.... The sign
posted is....Hope died here!!!
"Tracy White" <whitet@blarg.net> wrote in message
news:f13d5e6.0404261445.66ee7eb5@posting.google.com...
i.e. a proudly atheistic state whose system is not riddled by
corruption.
Not a one. But I'm no expert or researcher on atheistic states.
How about a counter-counter example; can you name a proudly theistic
state whose system is not riddled by corruption?
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And your evidence for this statement would be....?
Roger
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