| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"ohoe" |
| Date: |
24 Apr 2004 09:32:12 PM |
| Object: |
Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
Athiest nations are historically documented failures
By Bruce Christensen
March 18, 2004
Dr. Duva: You want an atheist nation. The world has tried that:
Russia, China, Pre-WWII Germany, Vietnam, North Korea, Cambodia, Laos,
Nigeria, Cuba, Nicaragua and Columbia. What has happened in those
countries? Corrupt men have been allowed to perform atrocities and no
one has been in a position to stop them. Is that what you want for our
country? I don't think so. But why would you support a change that has
historically never worked in implementation? It would appear it is
because you disagree with the basis of our society, which is centered
in a belief in God.
The root problem with an atheist society is that there is no common
ground upon which to build said society. Mutual advantage does work to
an extent, but it is even more vicious than our capitalist society
that works to its own advantage. Because without fear of God, what
reason is there not to murder, steal, lie, cheat, etc? Fear of
retribution by individuals in the society and fear of retribution by
the state society. But what if the person is a high-ranking official
in that state? They control the state/society, and so they need merely
to remove individuals opposed to them, and they can then perform said
atrocities unchecked. Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Tse-tung and Hitler come to
mind. Without a basic set of moral beliefs upon which to base a
society, the leaders of such a nation have no fear of offending a
higher power -- and the people are not motivated to revolt because
risking their lives is risking all, as there is nothing else, whereas
those who believe in God believe that they may risk their lives, but
they do not feel that they are risking their eternal welfare.
All of the other societal issues go away once the people are content
with their standing with God. Abortion, sexual aberration, unwed
pregnancy, and homosexuality become non-issues, because those who
truly believe in God believe in abstinence before marriage (one of
God's institutions) and fidelity after marriage, which means that a
home will exist where a child can be welcomed to the world. Drugs,
overeating, and other psychological forms of pleasure-seeking will
become unnecessary, as people will no longer feel a need to
artificially boost their psychological state, being already happy in
their view of the world.
Now people aren't perfect, so these problems will exist and will be
largely caused by fear that they may not be happy after this life is
over, so they might as well get as much pleasure as they can while
they are here. But if that one single issue were resolved, then what
other problems would a society have? Envying, theft, lying, lawsuits,
etc. would be unnecessary because either parties would live without
offending each other, or those who were wronged would say to
themselves something like, "Let God judge between me and thee." They
would leave justice to God and live to the best of their situation.
Utopian, I know. Isn't it wonderful? That is our hope for America and
for the entire world. It would eliminate competition, rather than
making it more brutal, as state-sponsored atheism has in the past.
Why? Because people would have choices. They could do wrong, but they
could choose not to. Those that have no sense of right or wrong can
only choose to help themselves.
Now let me save those of you, who would respond to the contrary, the
need for rebuttal. First, an argument could be made that this is
America, not China, Germany, or any other of those countries listed at
the beginning of this article. That is correct. We live in a different
land with different people. But with such a broad range of peoples
included in the examples, do you suppose America could succeed where
so many others have failed? This is an amazing country, but removing
the backbone of belief in God, it would likely not have the strength.
Not to mention that the majority of the theistic people, which
includes many of the best and brightest, would leave rather than see
America so disgraced.
Second, a society could be built with common ideals that do not
require a belief in God. Belief in personal freedom or liberty will
not do, as each person would reject the society's right to infringe on
such, which is necessary to regulate the society. A desire to work
together for common benefit is not enough; it has no defense against
betrayal inside the society, because each member would be justified in
doing what would help that individual, the true basis of common
benefit. Desire to live good lives even fails without a reference
definition of what a 'good' life is. Belief in God gives all of these
matters a natural incentive or disincentive and no other belief does
so in a similar manner.
Third, my argument that positive belief of eternal standing in
relation to God will remedy all other problems is without basis in
fact. I have already allowed that there will likely be some in any
human society that feel that they will not be judged favorably in the
afterlife or that they will not be happy in that state. This will keep
some problems from being remedied. But ultimately, it will be better
than the alternative of an atheistic society, which will breed
problems as people blindly seek happiness and, not knowing where to
find it, seek pleasure instead.
http://www.arbiteronline.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/03/18/40596fef51609
.
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| User: "David Galehouse" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
24 Apr 2004 09:50:40 PM |
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"ohoe" <ohoe4@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a5a860fc.0404241832.2f13fbe9@posting.google.com...
Athiest nations are historically documented failures
By Bruce Christensen
March 18, 2004
How about just having a nation where individual religious beliefs are left
to individuals as was intended by our founding fathers? LOL! We don't need
to have an Atheist nation or a Christian nation or a Jewish nation. This
argument is so stupid it's almost laughable! Just more ***** from our own
budding "Taliban" movement known as Christian Fundamentalism.
.
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| User: "Bill Case" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
28 Apr 2004 08:33:02 PM |
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"David Galehouse" <David.A.Galehouse@lexis-nexis.com> wrote in message
news:c6f921$f0u$5@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com...
"ohoe" <ohoe4@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a5a860fc.0404241832.2f13fbe9@posting.google.com...
Athiest nations are historically documented failures
By Bruce Christensen
March 18, 2004
How about just having a nation where individual religious beliefs are left
to individuals as was intended by our founding fathers? LOL! We don't need
to have an Atheist nation or a Christian nation or a Jewish nation. This
argument is so stupid it's almost laughable! Just more ***** from our
own
budding "Taliban" movement known as Christian Fundamentalism.
One of the characteristics of Christian Fundamentalists is that they aren't
bright enough to frame good arguments. Their whole culture is unthinking,
and when they get into positions of power, the bad habits assert themselves.
The US is going through some of that now.
.
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| User: "Peacenik" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
25 Apr 2004 04:37:49 PM |
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"ohoe" <ohoe4@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a5a860fc.0404241832.2f13fbe9@posting.google.com...
Athiest nations are historically documented failures
By Bruce Christensen
March 18, 2004
Dr. Duva: You want an atheist nation. The world has tried that:
Russia, China, Pre-WWII Germany, Vietnam, North Korea, Cambodia, Laos,
Nigeria, Cuba, Nicaragua and Columbia.
You're confusing atheism with Communism. Those were/are Communist countries.
The exception is Nazi Germany, which was a VERY religious country.
--
Peacenik
.
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| User: "Peacenik" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
25 Apr 2004 04:52:20 PM |
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"Peacenik" <criskity999@com999cast.removeallnines.net> wrote in message
news:NcWic.21207$cF6.868304@attbi_s04...
"ohoe" <ohoe4@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a5a860fc.0404241832.2f13fbe9@posting.google.com...
Athiest nations are historically documented failures
By Bruce Christensen
March 18, 2004
Dr. Duva: You want an atheist nation. The world has tried that:
Russia, China, Pre-WWII Germany, Vietnam, North Korea, Cambodia, Laos,
Nigeria, Cuba, Nicaragua and Columbia.
You're confusing atheism with Communism. Those were/are Communist
countries.
The exception is Nazi Germany, which was a VERY religious country.
And by the way, Vietnam, Cambodia, Burma and Laos are strongly Buddhist
countries.
Vietnam is also the second most Catholic country in Asia, second only to the
Philippines. And Caodaiism is a burgeoning religion in Vietnam.
I visited Laos last year. Still a very Communist country. A common sight
there is monks walking around in saffron robes. The local people there
openly burn incest and pray to the Buddha. Practically everyone you meet
there is Buddhist. Temples are everywhere, and people openly worship there,
and Buddha images are considered very sacred and visitors must be respectful
in the presence of Buddha images.
Interesting example of an "atheist" country, huh?
--
Peacenik
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
26 Apr 2004 07:00:16 PM |
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Peacenik wrote:
"ohoe" <ohoe4@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a5a860fc.0404241832.2f13fbe9@posting.google.com...
Athiest nations are historically documented failures
By Bruce Christensen
March 18, 2004
Dr. Duva: You want an atheist nation. The world has tried that:
Russia, China, Pre-WWII Germany, Vietnam, North Korea, Cambodia, Laos,
Nigeria, Cuba, Nicaragua and Columbia.
You're confusing atheism with Communism. Those were/are Communist countries.
The exception is Nazi Germany, which was a VERY religious country.
Are you saying, the people of those countries were not religious prior
to the commies taking them over?
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "torch" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
25 Apr 2004 01:56:22 AM |
|
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"ohoe" <ohoe4@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a5a860fc.0404241832.2f13fbe9@posting.google.com...
Athiest nations are historically documented failures
By Bruce Christensen
March 18, 2004
Dr. Duva: You want an atheist nation. The world has tried that:
Russia, China, Pre-WWII Germany, Vietnam, North Korea, Cambodia, Laos,
Nigeria, Cuba, Nicaragua and Columbia. What has happened in those
countries? Corrupt men have been allowed to perform atrocities and no
one has been in a position to stop them. Is that what you want for our
country? I don't think so. But why would you support a change that has
historically never worked in implementation? It would appear it is
because you disagree with the basis of our society, which is centered
in a belief in God.
The root problem with an atheist society is that there is no common
ground upon which to build said society. Mutual advantage does work to
an extent, but it is even more vicious than our capitalist society
that works to its own advantage. Because without fear of God, what
reason is there not to murder, steal, lie, cheat, etc? Fear of
retribution by individuals in the society and fear of retribution by
the state society. But what if the person is a high-ranking official
in that state? They control the state/society, and so they need merely
to remove individuals opposed to them, and they can then perform said
atrocities unchecked. Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Tse-tung and Hitler come to
mind. Without a basic set of moral beliefs upon which to base a
society, the leaders of such a nation have no fear of offending a
higher power -- and the people are not motivated to revolt because
risking their lives is risking all, as there is nothing else, whereas
those who believe in God believe that they may risk their lives, but
they do not feel that they are risking their eternal welfare.
All of the other societal issues go away once the people are content
with their standing with God. Abortion, sexual aberration, unwed
pregnancy, and homosexuality become non-issues, because those who
truly believe in God believe in abstinence before marriage (one of
God's institutions) and fidelity after marriage, which means that a
home will exist where a child can be welcomed to the world. Drugs,
overeating, and other psychological forms of pleasure-seeking will
become unnecessary, as people will no longer feel a need to
artificially boost their psychological state, being already happy in
their view of the world.
Now people aren't perfect, so these problems will exist and will be
largely caused by fear that they may not be happy after this life is
over, so they might as well get as much pleasure as they can while
they are here. But if that one single issue were resolved, then what
other problems would a society have? Envying, theft, lying, lawsuits,
etc. would be unnecessary because either parties would live without
offending each other, or those who were wronged would say to
themselves something like, "Let God judge between me and thee." They
would leave justice to God and live to the best of their situation.
Utopian, I know. Isn't it wonderful? That is our hope for America and
for the entire world. It would eliminate competition, rather than
making it more brutal, as state-sponsored atheism has in the past.
Why? Because people would have choices. They could do wrong, but they
could choose not to. Those that have no sense of right or wrong can
only choose to help themselves.
Now let me save those of you, who would respond to the contrary, the
need for rebuttal. First, an argument could be made that this is
America, not China, Germany, or any other of those countries listed at
the beginning of this article. That is correct. We live in a different
land with different people. But with such a broad range of peoples
included in the examples, do you suppose America could succeed where
so many others have failed? This is an amazing country, but removing
the backbone of belief in God, it would likely not have the strength.
Not to mention that the majority of the theistic people, which
includes many of the best and brightest, would leave rather than see
America so disgraced.
Second, a society could be built with common ideals that do not
require a belief in God. Belief in personal freedom or liberty will
not do, as each person would reject the society's right to infringe on
such, which is necessary to regulate the society. A desire to work
together for common benefit is not enough; it has no defense against
betrayal inside the society, because each member would be justified in
doing what would help that individual, the true basis of common
benefit. Desire to live good lives even fails without a reference
definition of what a 'good' life is. Belief in God gives all of these
matters a natural incentive or disincentive and no other belief does
so in a similar manner.
Third, my argument that positive belief of eternal standing in
relation to God will remedy all other problems is without basis in
fact. I have already allowed that there will likely be some in any
human society that feel that they will not be judged favorably in the
afterlife or that they will not be happy in that state. This will keep
some problems from being remedied. But ultimately, it will be better
than the alternative of an atheistic society, which will breed
problems as people blindly seek happiness and, not knowing where to
find it, seek pleasure instead.
http://www.arbiteronline.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/03/18/40596fef51609#
I should resist the temptation to reply to this post on the basis that you,
being of a theistic frame of mind, are incapable of understanding the
corruption that has been introduced into your abilities to argue any point
in a rational way but I just want to make a couple of points.
This is the way a theist develops his world view - first establish what you
believe, second, look for evidence that supports that belief and
conveniently overlook all other evidence to the contrary, third, dress the
explanation up in pseudo-intellectual, psuedo-scientific language and hope
the rest of the world is as stupid as you.
Here is what you conveniently left out of your evidence.
The Islamic state seems to be the perfect theistic state model that you seem
to be arguing for - why do you not mention the success or failure of these
in your argument?
Nigeria, Nicaragua and Columbia are deeply religious.
Pre WW11 Germany was not an atheist society - it was predominantly
christian, including Hitler, and guilty of the worst atrocity in human
history
Communist states failed because they were built upon an unproven dogma that
required unquestioning adherence by citizens regardless of the mounting
evidence that they doing something very stupid.(ring any bells?)
Succesful societies have these features in common - they are democratic,
they protect the freedom of the individual, there is seperation between
church and state, they embrace the concept of personal wealth.
I suspect that one of the causes of failed states, atrocities, dictators etc
is stupid people like you who get themelves into a position to act out thier
stupid ideas on the rest of us.
.
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| User: "LP" |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
25 Apr 2004 07:10:57 AM |
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 07:56:22 +0100, "torch" <torch@torch.com> wrote:
"ohoe" <ohoe4@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a5a860fc.0404241832.2f13fbe9@posting.google.com...
Athiest nations are historically documented failures
By Bruce Christensen
March 18, 2004
Dr. Duva: You want an atheist nation. The world has tried that:
Russia, China, Pre-WWII Germany, Vietnam, North Korea, Cambodia, Laos,
Nigeria, Cuba, Nicaragua and Columbia. What has happened in those
countries?
I should resist the temptation to reply to this post on the basis that you,
being of a theistic frame of mind, are incapable of understanding the
corruption that has been introduced into your abilities to argue any point
in a rational way but I just want to make a couple of points.
Nice reply.
I, for one, am glad you didn't resist the temptation to reply.
The person you responded to will probably be unable to comprehend
why the facts you pointed out show how absurd his ridiculous claims
are. Nonetheless, the points you made are still valuable to those who
have not been totally blinded by their religion.
This is the way a theist develops his world view - first establish what you
believe, second, look for evidence that supports that belief and
conveniently overlook all other evidence to the contrary, third, dress the
explanation up in pseudo-intellectual, psuedo-scientific language and hope
the rest of the world is as stupid as you.
Here is what you conveniently left out of your evidence.
The Islamic state seems to be the perfect theistic state model that you seem
to be arguing for - why do you not mention the success or failure of these
in your argument?
Nigeria, Nicaragua and Columbia are deeply religious.
Pre WW11 Germany was not an atheist society - it was predominantly
christian, including Hitler, and guilty of the worst atrocity in human
history
Communist states failed because they were built upon an unproven dogma that
required unquestioning adherence by citizens regardless of the mounting
evidence that they doing something very stupid.(ring any bells?)
Succesful societies have these features in common - they are democratic,
they protect the freedom of the individual, there is seperation between
church and state, they embrace the concept of personal wealth.
I suspect that one of the causes of failed states, atrocities, dictators etc
is stupid people like you who get themelves into a position to act out thier
stupid ideas on the rest of us.
.
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| User: "Jim F." |
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| Title: Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures |
24 Apr 2004 09:38:21 PM |
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"ohoe" <ohoe4@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a5a860fc.0404241832.2f13fbe9@posting.google.com...
Athiest nations are historically documented failures
Articles which mispell 'atheist' as 'athiest' are certainly historically
documented failures.
By Bruce Christensen
.
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| User: "grungo" |
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| Title: The world's most atheist nation is not failure ( Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures) |
25 Apr 2004 12:51:20 PM |
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(ohoe) wrote in article
<a5a860fc.0404241832.2f13fbe9@posting.google.com>:
Athiest nations are historically documented failures
By Bruce Christensen
http://www.arbiteronline.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/03/18/40596fef51609
March 18, 2004
Dr. Duva: You want an atheist nation. The world has tried that:
Really ? Let's look how atheist are these nations:
All data from the notorious atheist den called World
Christian Database
http://www.worldchristiandatabase.org/wcd/default.asp
Russia,
Atheists: 5.18%
Bahais: 0.01%
Buddhists: 0.40%
Christians: 57.91%
Ethnoreligionists: 0.77%
Hindus: 0.53%
Jews: 0.17%
Muslims: 7.57%
Nonreligious: 27.47%
China,
Atheists: 7.97%
Buddhists: 8.52%
Chinese Universists: 29.01%
Christians: 6.98%
Ethnoreligionists: 4.39%
Muslims: 1.52%
Neoreligionists: 0.03%
Nonreligious: 41.61%
Taoists: 0.03%
Pre-WWII Germany,
Atheists: 2.18%
Bahais: 0.02%
Buddhists: 0.10%
Chinese Universists: 0.01%
Christians: 75.70%
Hindus: 0.06%
Jews: 0.12%
Muslims: 4.44%
Neoreligionists: 0.07%
Nonreligious: 17.30%
Vietnam,
Atheists: 6.97%
Bahais: 0.44%
Buddhists: 49.10%
Chinese Universists: 1.00%
Christians: 8.62%
Ethnoreligionists: 8.68%
Hindus: 0.05%
Muslims: 0.72%
Neoreligionists: 11.23%
Nonreligious: 13.54%
North Korea,
Atheists: 15.58%
Buddhists: 1.52%
Chinese Universists: 0.06%
Christians: 2.09%
Ethnoreligionists: 12.28%
Muslims: 0.01%
Neoreligionists: 12.88%
Nonreligious: 55.58%
Cambodia,
Atheists: 0.25%
Bahais: 0.12%
Buddhists: 85.97%
Chinese Universists: 2.95%
Christians: 1.21%
Ethnoreligionists: 4.75%
Hindus: 0.24%
Muslims: 2.20%
Neoreligionists: 0.31%
Nonreligious: 2.33%
Laos,
Atheists: 1.13%
Bahais: 0.02%
Buddhists: 48.82%
Chinese Universists: 1.51%
Christians: 2.76%
Ethnoreligionists: 41.06%
Hindus: 0.12%
Muslims: 0.36%
Neoreligionists: 0.17%
Nonreligious: 4.27%
Taoists: 0.02%
Nigeria,
Atheists: 0.04%
Bahais: 0.02%
Buddhists: 0.01%
Christians: 46.88%
Ethnoreligionists: 10.65%
Muslims: 42.09%
Neoreligionists: 0.02%
Nonreligious: 0.29%
Cuba,
Atheists: 5.78%
Bahais: 0.01%
Buddhists: 0.05%
Chinese Universists: 0.19%
Christians: 52.77%
Hindus: 0.21%
Muslims: 0.08%
Neoreligionists: 0.01%
Nonreligious: 23.71%
Spiritists: 17.18%
Nicaragua and
Atheists: 0.05%
Bahais: 0.19%
Buddhists: 0.11%
Chinese Universists: 0.04%
Christians: 96.28%
Ethnoreligionists: 0.47%
Muslims: 0.03%
Neoreligionists: 0.02%
Nonreligious: 1.34%
Spiritists: 1.45%
Columbia.
Atheists: 0.20%
Bahais: 0.15%
Chinese Universists: 0.01%
Christians: 96.72%
Ethnoreligionists: 0.62%
Hindus: 0.02%
Jews: 0.02%
Muslims: 0.11%
Neoreligionists: 0.01%
Nonreligious: 1.16%
Spiritists: 0.96%
What has happened in those
countries?
Obviously, they got too much religion.
Look at a real atheist nation :
--------------------------------------------
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/009710.htm
Czech Republic: Most Atheist Country in Europe?
The Czech Republic may be a great place to live for atheists
- even those Czechs who aren't atheist are, by and large,
disdainful of organized religion. A recent poll found that
only 33.6% of Czechs belong to a religion and only 11.7%
attend services once a month or more. That's the lowest rate
for any country in Europe aside from Estonia.
More importantly, perhaps, is the fact that Czechs are quite
proud of this. The LA Times quotes Lawrence Cada:
"There's a hostility toward what religion did to them in the
past. The Czechs say they're the most atheist country in
Europe, and they say it with some pride This is how Western
civilization may look in 50 years, because people here
believe they live a full life without any religion."
Roman Catholicism is the traditional religion of this
region, but people aren't giving it much attention. They see
it as a religion of oppression and there aren't enough
priests to meet what little demand there is for them - it
isn't uncommon or one priest to have to travel to nine
parishes to celebrate Mass. According to psychiatrist Libor
Growsky:
"I'm a nonbeliever. It's connected to our history. Religion
limited the freedom of the people. I don't see a difference
between the Communists and the Catholics. They each want
people to comply with their ideals My sense of morality
comes from literature and my family."
Perhaps the most telling symbol of this is St. Vitus
Cathedral, the Gothic centerpiece of Hradcany Castle. The
Roman Catholic Church wants to regain control of it. The
government, however, views it as a museum for the past and
wants to keep it that way. A fitting state of affairs, it
seems to me.
--------------------------------------------
Is Czech republic a failure? Doesn't seem so - here are just
a few statistics, comparing godless Czechs with neighboring
95% Catholic Poles and the most godly people of the world,
Americans:
Crime: Murder
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap
41. Czech Republic 0.01 per 1000 people
19. Poland 0.05 per 1000 people
23. United States 0.04 per 1000 people
Crime: Rape
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_cap
40. Czech Republic 0.04 per 1000 people
29. Poland 0.06 per 1000 people
9. United States 0.30 per 1000 people
Crime: Robbery
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rob_cap
38. Czech Republic 0.39 per 1000 people
11. United States 1.41 per 1000 people
12. Poland 1.38 per 1000 people
Health: HIV/AIDS adult prevalence rate
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_hiv_aid_adu_pre_rat&int=-1
148. Czech Republic less than 0.1% (2001 est.)
65. United States 0.6% (2001 est.)
111. Poland 0.1% - note: no country specific models provided
(2001 est.)
Health: Infant mortality rate
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_inf_mor_rat&int=-1
199. Czech Republic 5.46
168. Poland 9.17
184. United States 6.69
Education: Scientific literacy
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/edu_sci_lit
11. Czech Republic 511
14. United States 499
21. Poland 483
.
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| User: "E.E.Bud Keith" |
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| Title: Re: The world's most atheist nation is not failure ( Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures) |
25 Apr 2004 12:53:01 PM |
|
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"grungo" <grungo@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:ijun805jisgns0gcbj99tq4smruqojbfva@4ax.com...
ohoe4@hotmail.com (ohoe) wrote in article
<a5a860fc.0404241832.2f13fbe9@posting.google.com>:
Athiest nations are historically documented failures
By Bruce Christensen
http://www.arbiteronline.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/03/18/40596fef51609
March 18, 2004
Dr. Duva: You want an atheist nation. The world has tried that:
Really ? Let's look how atheist are these nations:
All data from the notorious atheist den called World
Christian Database
http://www.worldchristiandatabase.org/wcd/default.asp
Russia,
Atheists: 5.18%
Bahais: 0.01%
Buddhists: 0.40%
Christians: 57.91%
Ethnoreligionists: 0.77%
Hindus: 0.53%
Jews: 0.17%
Muslims: 7.57%
Nonreligious: 27.47%
China,
Atheists: 7.97%
Buddhists: 8.52%
Chinese Universists: 29.01%
Christians: 6.98%
Ethnoreligionists: 4.39%
Muslims: 1.52%
Neoreligionists: 0.03%
Nonreligious: 41.61%
Taoists: 0.03%
Pre-WWII Germany,
Atheists: 2.18%
Bahais: 0.02%
Buddhists: 0.10%
Chinese Universists: 0.01%
Christians: 75.70%
Hindus: 0.06%
Jews: 0.12%
Muslims: 4.44%
Neoreligionists: 0.07%
Nonreligious: 17.30%
Vietnam,
Atheists: 6.97%
Bahais: 0.44%
Buddhists: 49.10%
Chinese Universists: 1.00%
Christians: 8.62%
Ethnoreligionists: 8.68%
Hindus: 0.05%
Muslims: 0.72%
Neoreligionists: 11.23%
Nonreligious: 13.54%
North Korea,
Atheists: 15.58%
Buddhists: 1.52%
Chinese Universists: 0.06%
Christians: 2.09%
Ethnoreligionists: 12.28%
Muslims: 0.01%
Neoreligionists: 12.88%
Nonreligious: 55.58%
Cambodia,
Atheists: 0.25%
Bahais: 0.12%
Buddhists: 85.97%
Chinese Universists: 2.95%
Christians: 1.21%
Ethnoreligionists: 4.75%
Hindus: 0.24%
Muslims: 2.20%
Neoreligionists: 0.31%
Nonreligious: 2.33%
Laos,
Atheists: 1.13%
Bahais: 0.02%
Buddhists: 48.82%
Chinese Universists: 1.51%
Christians: 2.76%
Ethnoreligionists: 41.06%
Hindus: 0.12%
Muslims: 0.36%
Neoreligionists: 0.17%
Nonreligious: 4.27%
Taoists: 0.02%
Nigeria,
Atheists: 0.04%
Bahais: 0.02%
Buddhists: 0.01%
Christians: 46.88%
Ethnoreligionists: 10.65%
Muslims: 42.09%
Neoreligionists: 0.02%
Nonreligious: 0.29%
Cuba,
Atheists: 5.78%
Bahais: 0.01%
Buddhists: 0.05%
Chinese Universists: 0.19%
Christians: 52.77%
Hindus: 0.21%
Muslims: 0.08%
Neoreligionists: 0.01%
Nonreligious: 23.71%
Spiritists: 17.18%
Nicaragua and
Atheists: 0.05%
Bahais: 0.19%
Buddhists: 0.11%
Chinese Universists: 0.04%
Christians: 96.28%
Ethnoreligionists: 0.47%
Muslims: 0.03%
Neoreligionists: 0.02%
Nonreligious: 1.34%
Spiritists: 1.45%
Columbia.
Atheists: 0.20%
Bahais: 0.15%
Chinese Universists: 0.01%
Christians: 96.72%
Ethnoreligionists: 0.62%
Hindus: 0.02%
Jews: 0.02%
Muslims: 0.11%
Neoreligionists: 0.01%
Nonreligious: 1.16%
Spiritists: 0.96%
What has happened in those
countries?
Obviously, they got too much religion.
Look at a real atheist nation :
--------------------------------------------
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/009710.htm
Czech Republic: Most Atheist Country in Europe?
The Czech Republic may be a great place to live for atheists
- even those Czechs who aren't atheist are, by and large,
disdainful of organized religion. A recent poll found that
only 33.6% of Czechs belong to a religion and only 11.7%
attend services once a month or more. That's the lowest rate
for any country in Europe aside from Estonia.
More importantly, perhaps, is the fact that Czechs are quite
proud of this. The LA Times quotes Lawrence Cada:
"There's a hostility toward what religion did to them in the
past. The Czechs say they're the most atheist country in
Europe, and they say it with some pride This is how Western
civilization may look in 50 years, because people here
believe they live a full life without any religion."
Roman Catholicism is the traditional religion of this
region, but people aren't giving it much attention. They see
it as a religion of oppression and there aren't enough
priests to meet what little demand there is for them - it
isn't uncommon or one priest to have to travel to nine
parishes to celebrate Mass. According to psychiatrist Libor
Growsky:
"I'm a nonbeliever. It's connected to our history. Religion
limited the freedom of the people. I don't see a difference
between the Communists and the Catholics. They each want
people to comply with their ideals My sense of morality
comes from literature and my family."
Perhaps the most telling symbol of this is St. Vitus
Cathedral, the Gothic centerpiece of Hradcany Castle. The
Roman Catholic Church wants to regain control of it. The
government, however, views it as a museum for the past and
wants to keep it that way. A fitting state of affairs, it
seems to me.
--------------------------------------------
Is Czech republic a failure? Doesn't seem so - here are just
a few statistics, comparing godless Czechs with neighboring
95% Catholic Poles and the most godly people of the world,
Americans:
Crime: Murder
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap
41. Czech Republic 0.01 per 1000 people
19. Poland 0.05 per 1000 people
23. United States 0.04 per 1000 people
Crime: Rape
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_cap
40. Czech Republic 0.04 per 1000 people
29. Poland 0.06 per 1000 people
9. United States 0.30 per 1000 people
Crime: Robbery
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rob_cap
38. Czech Republic 0.39 per 1000 people
11. United States 1.41 per 1000 people
12. Poland 1.38 per 1000 people
Health: HIV/AIDS adult prevalence rate
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_hiv_aid_adu_pre_rat&int=-1
148. Czech Republic less than 0.1% (2001 est.)
65. United States 0.6% (2001 est.)
111. Poland 0.1% - note: no country specific models provided
(2001 est.)
Health: Infant mortality rate
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_inf_mor_rat&int=-1
199. Czech Republic 5.46
168. Poland 9.17
184. United States 6.69
Education: Scientific literacy
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/edu_sci_lit
11. Czech Republic 511
14. United States 499
21. Poland 483
Which proves what,. you are able to gather statistics? Now if you were
only able to interpret them. Raw numbers prove nothing if you ignore every
other aspect of the particular society.
.
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| User: "torch" |
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| Title: Re: The world's most atheist nation is not failure ( Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures) |
25 Apr 2004 02:22:39 PM |
|
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"E.E.Bud Keith" <budk101@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:q5idndHjd-ZsZxbdRVn-vw@comcast.com...
"grungo" <grungo@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:ijun805jisgns0gcbj99tq4smruqojbfva@4ax.com...
ohoe4@hotmail.com (ohoe) wrote in article
<a5a860fc.0404241832.2f13fbe9@posting.google.com>:
Athiest nations are historically documented failures
By Bruce Christensen
http://www.arbiteronline.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/03/18/40596fef51609
March 18, 2004
Dr. Duva: You want an atheist nation. The world has tried that:
Really ? Let's look how atheist are these nations:
All data from the notorious atheist den called World
Christian Database
http://www.worldchristiandatabase.org/wcd/default.asp
Russia,
Atheists: 5.18%
Bahais: 0.01%
Buddhists: 0.40%
Christians: 57.91%
Ethnoreligionists: 0.77%
Hindus: 0.53%
Jews: 0.17%
Muslims: 7.57%
Nonreligious: 27.47%
China,
Atheists: 7.97%
Buddhists: 8.52%
Chinese Universists: 29.01%
Christians: 6.98%
Ethnoreligionists: 4.39%
Muslims: 1.52%
Neoreligionists: 0.03%
Nonreligious: 41.61%
Taoists: 0.03%
Pre-WWII Germany,
Atheists: 2.18%
Bahais: 0.02%
Buddhists: 0.10%
Chinese Universists: 0.01%
Christians: 75.70%
Hindus: 0.06%
Jews: 0.12%
Muslims: 4.44%
Neoreligionists: 0.07%
Nonreligious: 17.30%
Vietnam,
Atheists: 6.97%
Bahais: 0.44%
Buddhists: 49.10%
Chinese Universists: 1.00%
Christians: 8.62%
Ethnoreligionists: 8.68%
Hindus: 0.05%
Muslims: 0.72%
Neoreligionists: 11.23%
Nonreligious: 13.54%
North Korea,
Atheists: 15.58%
Buddhists: 1.52%
Chinese Universists: 0.06%
Christians: 2.09%
Ethnoreligionists: 12.28%
Muslims: 0.01%
Neoreligionists: 12.88%
Nonreligious: 55.58%
Cambodia,
Atheists: 0.25%
Bahais: 0.12%
Buddhists: 85.97%
Chinese Universists: 2.95%
Christians: 1.21%
Ethnoreligionists: 4.75%
Hindus: 0.24%
Muslims: 2.20%
Neoreligionists: 0.31%
Nonreligious: 2.33%
Laos,
Atheists: 1.13%
Bahais: 0.02%
Buddhists: 48.82%
Chinese Universists: 1.51%
Christians: 2.76%
Ethnoreligionists: 41.06%
Hindus: 0.12%
Muslims: 0.36%
Neoreligionists: 0.17%
Nonreligious: 4.27%
Taoists: 0.02%
Nigeria,
Atheists: 0.04%
Bahais: 0.02%
Buddhists: 0.01%
Christians: 46.88%
Ethnoreligionists: 10.65%
Muslims: 42.09%
Neoreligionists: 0.02%
Nonreligious: 0.29%
Cuba,
Atheists: 5.78%
Bahais: 0.01%
Buddhists: 0.05%
Chinese Universists: 0.19%
Christians: 52.77%
Hindus: 0.21%
Muslims: 0.08%
Neoreligionists: 0.01%
Nonreligious: 23.71%
Spiritists: 17.18%
Nicaragua and
Atheists: 0.05%
Bahais: 0.19%
Buddhists: 0.11%
Chinese Universists: 0.04%
Christians: 96.28%
Ethnoreligionists: 0.47%
Muslims: 0.03%
Neoreligionists: 0.02%
Nonreligious: 1.34%
Spiritists: 1.45%
Columbia.
Atheists: 0.20%
Bahais: 0.15%
Chinese Universists: 0.01%
Christians: 96.72%
Ethnoreligionists: 0.62%
Hindus: 0.02%
Jews: 0.02%
Muslims: 0.11%
Neoreligionists: 0.01%
Nonreligious: 1.16%
Spiritists: 0.96%
What has happened in those
countries?
Obviously, they got too much religion.
Look at a real atheist nation :
--------------------------------------------
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/009710.htm
Czech Republic: Most Atheist Country in Europe?
The Czech Republic may be a great place to live for atheists
- even those Czechs who aren't atheist are, by and large,
disdainful of organized religion. A recent poll found that
only 33.6% of Czechs belong to a religion and only 11.7%
attend services once a month or more. That's the lowest rate
for any country in Europe aside from Estonia.
More importantly, perhaps, is the fact that Czechs are quite
proud of this. The LA Times quotes Lawrence Cada:
"There's a hostility toward what religion did to them in the
past. The Czechs say they're the most atheist country in
Europe, and they say it with some pride This is how Western
civilization may look in 50 years, because people here
believe they live a full life without any religion."
Roman Catholicism is the traditional religion of this
region, but people aren't giving it much attention. They see
it as a religion of oppression and there aren't enough
priests to meet what little demand there is for them - it
isn't uncommon or one priest to have to travel to nine
parishes to celebrate Mass. According to psychiatrist Libor
Growsky:
"I'm a nonbeliever. It's connected to our history. Religion
limited the freedom of the people. I don't see a difference
between the Communists and the Catholics. They each want
people to comply with their ideals My sense of morality
comes from literature and my family."
Perhaps the most telling symbol of this is St. Vitus
Cathedral, the Gothic centerpiece of Hradcany Castle. The
Roman Catholic Church wants to regain control of it. The
government, however, views it as a museum for the past and
wants to keep it that way. A fitting state of affairs, it
seems to me.
--------------------------------------------
Is Czech republic a failure? Doesn't seem so - here are just
a few statistics, comparing godless Czechs with neighboring
95% Catholic Poles and the most godly people of the world,
Americans:
Crime: Murder
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap
41. Czech Republic 0.01 per 1000 people
19. Poland 0.05 per 1000 people
23. United States 0.04 per 1000 people
Crime: Rape
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_cap
40. Czech Republic 0.04 per 1000 people
29. Poland 0.06 per 1000 people
9. United States 0.30 per 1000 people
Crime: Robbery
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rob_cap
38. Czech Republic 0.39 per 1000 people
11. United States 1.41 per 1000 people
12. Poland 1.38 per 1000 people
Health: HIV/AIDS adult prevalence rate
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_hiv_aid_adu_pre_rat&int=-1
148. Czech Republic less than 0.1% (2001 est.)
65. United States 0.6% (2001 est.)
111. Poland 0.1% - note: no country specific models provided
(2001 est.)
Health: Infant mortality rate
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_inf_mor_rat&int=-1
199. Czech Republic 5.46
168. Poland 9.17
184. United States 6.69
Education: Scientific literacy
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/edu_sci_lit
11. Czech Republic 511
14. United States 499
21. Poland 483
Which proves what,. you are able to gather statistics? Now if you were
only able to interpret them. Raw numbers prove nothing if you ignore every
other aspect of the particular society.
So why dont you give us your interpretation of these statistics?? . I
suspect you will just ignore them, but dont worry, thats all part of the
theistic mindset - only acknowledge evidence that supports your stupid
beliefs - ignore anything that challenges them.
.
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| User: "John M Price PhD" |
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| Title: Re: The world's most atheist nation is not failure ( Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures) |
25 Apr 2004 02:29:43 PM |
|
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In alt.atheism article <q5idndHjd-ZsZxbdRVn-vw@comcast.com> E.E.Bud Keith <budk101@comcast.net> wrote:
[snip excelent data]
: > Which proves what,. you are able to gather statistics? Now if you were
: only able to interpret them.
Go ahead - we are waiting for your erudite (yeah, right...)
interpretation. Bet you don't have one.
Raw numbers
Those were not 'raw numbers'. Take a methods course in sociology,
otherwise you advertise your ignorance. (Oops - you already did that!)
prove nothing if you ignore every
: other aspect of the particular society.
Which aspect of society was not covered that you consider so important?
Covered was crime, HIV rate, belief rate, etc. in a natural experiment of
the Czech Republic, and those were compared with the most religious nation
on earth. The Czechs did better.
What data do you have that contradicts these findings?
(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.
--
John M. Price, PhD
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
The universal chaos has within it a diverse anarchy
giving rise to order and pattern.
- unknown
.
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| User: "Malcolm" |
|
| Title: Re: The world's most atheist nation is not failure ( Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures) |
25 Apr 2004 04:08:41 PM |
|
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"John M Price PhD" <jmprice@calweb.com> wrote in message
In alt.atheism article <q5idndHjd-ZsZxbdRVn-vw@comcast.com> E.E.Bud Keith
<budk101@comcast.net> wrote:
Which aspect of society was not covered that you consider so
important?
Covered was crime, HIV rate, belief rate, etc. in a natural
experiment of the Czech Republic, and those were compared with
the most religious nation on earth. The Czechs did better.
One thing that wasn't mentioned was population size. If we took, say, the
ten thousand or so residents of the City of London and made them into an
independent state they would be easily the richest in terms of GDP per
capita on Earth. This doesn't mean very much. We can't conclude that these
Londoners have a superior genetic makeup, or a better culture, or higher
technology than the rest of us. All it means is that we have taken a small,
highly skewed sample of Britons. Similarly, comparing a continental nation
like the USA to a small central Eurpean republic doesn't necessarily tell
you anything useful.
What data do you have that contradicts these findings?
The other factor is that the Czech republic has only recently emerged from
communism. The communist economic policies were disastrous, but their social
policies were much more moderate. In particular sexual licence was
discouraged. The Czechs haven't had time for the negative effects of Western
permissiveness to work through. For instance it takes a generation or two
until the divorce rate begins to influence the academic performance of
schools.
The other problem with the interpretation of the data is that it is assumed
that there is a causal link between atheism and the various positive social
characteristics of the Czech republic. As anyone who has studied even basic
statistics knows, this does not necessarily follow. For instance education
and a good standard of living may cause people to reduce their religious
activity rather than the other way round.
.
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| User: "marus" |
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| Title: Re: The world's most atheist nation is not failure ( Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures) |
25 Apr 2004 04:49:57 PM |
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And now you are interpreting the data and manipulating the way you would
like to see them, i.e. you are overlooking the comparison to Poland, which
happen to be a small country. And guess what, it also just recently emerged
from communism as Czech Republic.
Also you graciously overlooked that the statistics are calculated per 1,000
people, so they are averaged and therefore reflect the size of population.
Hm, maybe you should consider more education in math, statistics or do more
research.
"Malcolm" <malcolm@55bank.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c6h99m$vqe$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
"John M Price PhD" <jmprice@calweb.com> wrote in message
In alt.atheism article <q5idndHjd-ZsZxbdRVn-vw@comcast.com> E.E.Bud
Keith
<budk101@comcast.net> wrote:
Which aspect of society was not covered that you consider so
important?
Covered was crime, HIV rate, belief rate, etc. in a natural
experiment of the Czech Republic, and those were compared with
the most religious nation on earth. The Czechs did better.
One thing that wasn't mentioned was population size. If we took, say, the
ten thousand or so residents of the City of London and made them into an
independent state they would be easily the richest in terms of GDP per
capita on Earth. This doesn't mean very much. We can't conclude that these
Londoners have a superior genetic makeup, or a better culture, or higher
technology than the rest of us. All it means is that we have taken a
small,
highly skewed sample of Britons. Similarly, comparing a continental nation
like the USA to a small central Eurpean republic doesn't necessarily tell
you anything useful.
What data do you have that contradicts these findings?
The other factor is that the Czech republic has only recently emerged from
communism. The communist economic policies were disastrous, but their
social
policies were much more moderate. In particular sexual licence was
discouraged. The Czechs haven't had time for the negative effects of
Western
permissiveness to work through. For instance it takes a generation or two
until the divorce rate begins to influence the academic performance of
schools.
The other problem with the interpretation of the data is that it is
assumed
that there is a causal link between atheism and the various positive
social
characteristics of the Czech republic. As anyone who has studied even
basic
statistics knows, this does not necessarily follow. For instance education
and a good standard of living may cause people to reduce their religious
activity rather than the other way round.
.
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| User: "Malcolm" |
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| Title: Re: The world's most atheist nation is not failure ( Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures) |
27 Apr 2004 04:47:33 PM |
|
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"marus" <marus@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Also you graciously overlooked that the statistics are calculated per >
1,000 people, so they are averaged and therefore reflect the size of
population.
I'm not quite such a simpleton. Imagine we have a big bag of 50% red beans
and 50% white beans. Now we take out ten scoops of 100 beans, and ten scoops
of 10 beans. Which set will have a scoop with the biggest proportion of red
beans? The ten beans, of course. The chance of getting 100% red beans is
about 1 in 1000 if we take ten beans. If we take a hundred the chance of
100% red is approximately zero.
Now you might object that the Czech republic, with 10 million citizens,
still has a big enough population to dilute any such effects. However no-one
is arguing that the distribution of atheists is random. However the
distribution of factors that lead to atheism may be random. For instance,
both the Unites States and the Czech republic make Budweiser beer. For the
US it is a small industry in terms of total GDP, for the Czechs a rather
larger one. If there is something about working in a brewer that disposes to
atheism, then the Czech republic will be far more affected. Similarly the
Czech have fewer bishops than the Americans. If the effectiveness of the
bishop is important, then the Czech republic might have a bad selection, for
purely statistical reasons.
Hm, maybe you should consider more education in math, statistics > or do
more research.
Typical atheist arrogance.
.
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| User: "John M Price PhD" |
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| Title: Re: The world's most atheist nation is not failure ( Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures) |
27 Apr 2004 05:39:15 PM |
|
|
In alt.atheism article <c6h99m$vqe$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> Malcolm <malcolm@55bank.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
: "John M Price PhD" <> wrote in message
: > In alt.atheism article <q5idndHjd-ZsZxbdRVn-vw@comcast.com> E.E.Bud Keith
: <budk101@comcast.net> wrote:
: >
: > Which aspect of society was not covered that you consider so
: > important?
: > Covered was crime, HIV rate, belief rate, etc. in a natural
: > experiment of the Czech Republic, and those were compared with
: > the most religious nation on earth. The Czechs did better.
: >
: One thing that wasn't mentioned was population size.
Do you think that has an effect on credulity or atheism? Or perhaps
violence. Generally, when folk do such comparisons, they tend to degate
it for the latter (look to the muder rates of US to other nations, or, for
that matter, Seattle -v- Vancouver).
If we took, say, the
: ten thousand or so residents of the City of London and made them into an
: independent state they would be easily the richest in terms of GDP per
: capita on Earth. This doesn't mean very much. We can't conclude that these
: Londoners have a superior genetic makeup, or a better culture, or higher
: technology than the rest of us.
No, but alas, they'd have the highest GDP, or did you mean SES. This is,
though, an unnatural segregation. Natural boundries such as nations,
states, counties, cities are usually the norm, though segregating in terms
of SES is common.
All it means is that we have taken a small,
: highly skewed sample of Britons.
Unless you have them all in one neighborhood, you have done something
entirely different than this study.
Similarly, comparing a continental nation
: like the USA to a small central Eurpean republic doesn't necessarily tell
: you anything useful.
: > What data do you have that contradicts these findings?
: >
: The other factor is that the Czech republic has only recently emerged from
: communism. The communist economic policies were disastrous, but their social
: policies were much more moderate. In particular sexual licence was
: discouraged. The Czechs haven't had time for the negative effects of Western
: permissiveness to work through. For instance it takes a generation or two
: until the divorce rate begins to influence the academic performance of
: schools.
True, though I wonder if the so called permissiveness of the US is only a
problem due to the eratic implementation of sex ed here. In my mom's
State, Arizona, they voted down a bill which would require that sex
education would be required to be medically accurate! Here, the factors
of teen STDs and pregnancy is much higher than in Europe where a more
permissive and educated tack to sexual behavior is taken. Teen pregnancy
is the fastest road to poverty. Pity the religious folk here don't
understand that contraception not only prevents teen pregnancy, STDs but
also abortions.
As to divorce, the rates are highest in the bible belt of the US, the same
place where the school performance is pretty poor. I see this as an
interesting relationship, but see the bible training more an influence on
schooling that the divorce rate, but I haven't seen any path analytic
papers. If you have one, let me know.
: The other problem with the interpretation of the data is that it is assumed
: that there is a causal link between atheism and the various positive social
: characteristics of the Czech republic. As anyone who has studied even basic
: statistics knows, this does not necessarily follow.
Correlation is not causation. The best that can be done is to only imply
causation, and that with some rather strict rules and procedures. Even
then all it says is that your model isn't incorrect, not that the model
*is* correct.
For instance education
: and a good standard of living may cause people to reduce their religious
: activity rather than the other way round.
From what I have seen in other studies, education (especially in the
sciences) and intelligence do decrease religious behavior. A good
standard of living would leave folk in a more rationally hopeful place,
rather than wondering where the next meal is coming from.
(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.
--
John M. Price, PhD
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason
is like administering medicine to the dead.
- Thomas Paine, in "The Age of Reason"
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| User: "Jack Stone" |
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| Title: Re: The world's most atheist nation is not failure ( Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures) |
02 May 2004 06:03:55 PM |
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"John M Price PhD" <jmprice@calweb.com> wrote
In my mom's
State, Arizona, they voted down a bill which would require that sex
education would be required to be medically accurate! Here, the factors
of teen STDs and pregnancy is much higher than in Europe where a more
permissive and educated tack to sexual behavior is taken. Teen pregnancy
is the fastest road to poverty.
But it does produce enough volunteers for the US armed forces, at least so
far :-)
--
Jack Stone
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Lepsi pivo v zaludku nezli voda na plicich."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
''
"It's better to have beer in the stomach than water in the lungs."
J. Cimrman
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| User: "Malcolm" |
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| Title: Re: The world's most atheist nation is not failure ( Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures) |
28 Apr 2004 06:13:58 PM |
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"John M Price PhD" <jmprice@calweb.com> wrote in message
: One thing that wasn't mentioned was population size.
Do you think that has an effect on credulity or atheism? Or
perhaps violence.
Not per se. However we would expect both the most religious and the most
atheist countries to be small countries, likewise the most law-abiding and
the most violent.
[ city of London ]
No, but alas, they'd have the highest GDP, or did you mean SES. > This
is, though, an unnatural segregation. Natural boundries such as
nations, states, counties, cities are usually the norm, though
segregating in terms of SES is common.
The City of London is a geographical area, the square mile, which contains
St Paul's Cathederal, the Stock Exchange, and many banks and other financial
instituations. Many people work there but few live there - the odd caretaker
and a few people who are so rich they can afford a flat at premium rate
office rentals.
It has a special legal status, since it is run by the corporation of the
City of London rather than by a council, as are the other London boroughs.
It is not technically a separate nation, but it is easy to see how it could
have gained that status (like the Channel islands or the Isle of Man) had
British constitutional history taken a slightly different course.
Unless you have them all in one neighborhood, you have done
something entirely different than this study.
We're talking about the residents of the square mile of the City of London.
Pity the religious folk here don't understand that contraception not
only prevents teen pregnancy, STDs but
also abortions.
Contraception doesn't prevent abortions. If you double up, eg use a condom
in conjunction with a pill, then the effectiveness of contraception is about
100%. However the abortion rate is between one in four and one in three
pregancies. An awful lot of people don't use contraception responsibly.
but see the bible training more an influence on
schooling that the divorce rate, but I haven't seen any path analytic
papers. If you have one, let me know.
You can't apply this sort of statisitical technique to complex behaviour of
a human population.
From what I have seen in other studies, education (especially in the
sciences) and intelligence do decrease religious behavior. A good
standard of living would leave folk in a more rationally hopeful
place, rather than wondering where the next meal is coming from.
Well the most religious nation in the world, as well as the best educated,
is certainly the Vatican City State. Go figure.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: The world's most atheist nation is not failure ( Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures) |
25 Apr 2004 08:12:42 PM |
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Lo, many moons past, on Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:08:41 +0100, a stranger
called by some "Malcolm" <malcolm@55bank.freeserve.co.uk> came forth
and told this tale in alt.atheism
The other factor is that the Czech republic has only recently emerged from
communism. The communist economic policies were disastrous, but their social
policies were much more moderate. In particular sexual licence was
discouraged. The Czechs haven't had time for the negative effects of Western
permissiveness to work through. For instance it takes a generation or two
until the divorce rate begins to influence the academic performance of
schools.
You have got to be kidding me. The Czech Republic (and Czechoslovakia
before) were long bastions of liberal thought and action.. Where the
hell do you think the term Bohemian comes from? Prague is the
Berkeley of Europe. More accurately, Berkeley is the Prague of the
Americas.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
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| User: "Jack Stone" |
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| Title: Re: The world's most atheist nation is not failure ( Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures) |
02 May 2004 05:58:04 PM |
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"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:1doo801r1hu41mh3otlk56k82nhnamm579@4ax.com...
Lo, many moons past, on Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:08:41 +0100, a stranger
called by some "Malcolm" <malcolm@55bank.freeserve.co.uk> came forth
and told this tale in alt.atheism
The other factor is that the Czech republic has only recently emerged
from
communism. The communist economic policies were disastrous, but their
social
policies were much more moderate. In particular sexual licence was
discouraged. The Czechs haven't had time for the negative effects of
Western
permissiveness to work through. For instance it takes a generation or two
until the divorce rate begins to influence the academic performance of
schools.
You have got to be kidding me. The Czech Republic (and Czechoslovakia
before) were long bastions of liberal thought and action.. Where the
hell do you think the term Bohemian comes from? Prague is the
Berkeley of Europe. More accurately, Berkeley is the Prague of the
Americas.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Wow ! As a Czech, I take that as an insult :-) Czech lands may have been
always liberal and free in thoughts, even when oppressed by regimes. But
comparison to nutty Berkeley? NO WAY! The only one who can be compared with
Berkeley is Vaclav Havel, and he's fortunately gone from politics in this
country.
--
Jack Stone
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Lepsi pivo v zaludku nezli voda na plicich."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
''
"It's better to have beer in the stomach than water in the lungs."
J. Cimrman
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| User: "Zdislav V. Kovarik" |
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| Title: Re: The world's most atheist nation is not failure ( Re: Athiestnations are historically documented failures) |
03 May 2004 01:31:53 PM |
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On Mon, 3 May 2004, Jack Stone wrote:
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:1doo801r1hu41mh3otlk56k82nhnamm579@4ax.com...
[...]
You have got to be kidding me. The Czech Republic (and Czechoslovakia
before) were long bastions of liberal thought and action.. Where the
hell do you think the term Bohemian comes from? Prague is the
Berkeley of Europe. More accurately, Berkeley is the Prague of the
Americas.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Wow ! As a Czech, I take that as an insult :-) Czech lands may have been
always liberal and free in thoughts, even when oppressed by regimes. But
comparison to nutty Berkeley? NO WAY! The only one who can be compared with
Berkeley is Vaclav Havel, and he's fortunately gone from politics in this
country.
--
There is a connection between Czech and Berkeley: the Czech
expression for "from Berkeley" is "zbrkly".
And "Bohemia"?
It's been around.
Originally "Boiohaemum" (sp?), the ancient Roman name for the
home of the Keltic tribe of Boii, later transferred to the region
regardless of its inhabitants (mainly Germanic and Slavic).
One theory has it that at the time the Romanys migrated westwards
and reached France, they told the locals that they were coming
from (the region of) Bohemia. That's how the carefree lifestyle
"Bohemian" got its name.
(Other Romanys told elsewhere that they were coming from Egypt,
hence the corrupted name "Gypsies".)
American airheads went further: years ago, I saw a book "Bohemia"
which reported mainly on San Francisco lifestyles, and had no clue
about that region somewhere in the jungles of Central Europe.
Incidentally, one of the TV serials (Dynasty or Dallas, who cares)
places some of its episodes in a mythical country "Moldavia",
apparently unaware of Moldavian reality.
Quiz question: What country has Nicolas Bourbaki as a member
of its Royal Academy?
Cheers, Slavek(ZVK)
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| User: "tortrix" |
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| Title: Re: The world's most atheist nation is not failure ( Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures) |
03 May 2004 08:28:16 PM |
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"Zdislav V. Kovarik" <kovarik@mcmaster.ca> wrote in message > Quiz question: >What country has Nicolas Bourbaki as a member
of its Royal Academy?
That's easy: France.
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| User: "Zdislav V. Kovarik" |
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| Title: Re: The world's most atheist nation is not failure ( Re: Athiestnations are historically documented failures) |
04 May 2004 01:12:00 PM |
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On Mon, 3 May 2004, tortrix wrote:
"Zdislav V. Kovarik" <kovarik@mcmaster.ca> wrote in message
Quiz question:
What country has Nicolas Bourbaki as a member
of its Royal Academy?
That's easy: France.
Wrong - it was a trick question. The country is a mythical
kingdom of Poldavia, and Prof. Bourbaki's employer is
l'Institut de Mathematique de l'Universite de Nancago.
More in
www.ams.org/notices/200309/fea-schwartz.pdf
Cheers, Slavek(ZVK)
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| User: "Paul JK" |
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| Title: Re: The world's most atheist nation is not failure ( Re: Athiest nations are historically documented failures) |
04 May 2004 12:28:03 AM |
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"Zdislav V. Kovarik" <kovarik@mcmaster.ca> wrote in message news:<Pine.WNT.4.58.0405031405470.-422991@satori.mcmaster.ca>...
On Mon, 3 May 2004, Jack Stone wrote:
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:1doo801r1hu41mh3otlk56k82nhnamm579@4ax.com...
[...]
You have got to be kidding me. The Czech Republic (and Czechoslovakia
before) were long bastions of liberal thought and action.. Where the
hell do you think the term Bohemian comes from? Prague is the
Berkeley of Europe. More accurately, Berkeley is the Prague of the
Americas.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Wow ! As a Czech, I take that as an insult :-) Czech lands may have been
always liberal and free in thoughts, even when oppressed by regimes. But
comparison to nutty Berkeley? NO WAY! The only one who can be compared with
Berkeley is Vaclav Havel, and he's fortunately gone from politics in this
country.
--
There is a connection between Czech and Berkeley: the Czech
expression for "from Berkeley" is "zbrkly".
And "Bohemia"?
It's been around.
Originally "Boiohaemum" (sp?), the ancient Roman name for the
home of the Keltic tribe of Boii, later transferred to the region
regardless of its inhabitants (mainly Germanic and Slavic).
I seem to remember seeing it spelled "Boihomene", but I've
seen (and also created myself) many many other spellings. :-)
One theory has it that at the time the Romanys migrated westwards
and reached France, they told the locals that they were coming
from (the region of) Bohemia. That's how the carefree lifestyle
"Bohemian" got its name.
(Other Romanys told elsewhere that they were coming from Egypt,
hence the corrupted name "Gypsies".)
American airheads went further: years ago, I saw a book "Bohemia"
which reported mainly on San Francisco lifestyles, and had no clue
about that region somewhere in the jungles of Central Europe.
Incidentally, one of the TV serials (Dynasty or Dallas, who cares)
places some of its episodes in a mythical country "Moldavia",
apparently unaware of Moldavian reality.
It all started with old Puck in Midsommer Night's Dream
visiting ocean beaches in Bohemia during his flights around Earth.
(just noticed that Merkins prefer to spell it Dreame)
Paul.
Quiz question: What country has Nicolas Bourbaki as a member
of its Royal Academy?
I don't know who that is.
I claim I have the right also not to know things.
:-)
Paul JK
Cheers, Slavek(ZVK)
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| User: "grungo" |
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| Title: Re: The world's most atheist nation is not failure |
26 Apr 2004 07:43:08 PM |
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John M Price PhD <jmprice@calweb.com> wrote in article
<408c11a7$0$7523$d368eab@news.calweb.com>:
In alt.atheism article <q5idndHjd-ZsZxbdRVn-vw@comcast.com> E.E.Bud Keith <budk101@comcast.net> wrote:
[snip excelent data]
: > Which proves what,. you are able to gather statistics? Now if you were
: only able to interpret them.
Go ahead - we are waiting for your erudite (yeah, right...)
interpretation. Bet you don't have one.
Raw numbers
Those were not 'raw numbers'. Take a methods course in sociology,
otherwise you advertise your ignorance. (Oops - you already did that!)
prove nothing if you ignore every
: other aspect of the particular society.
Which aspect of society was not covered that you consider so important?
Covered was crime, HIV rate, belief rate, etc. in a natural experiment of
the Czech Republic, and those were compared with the most religious nation
on earth. The Czechs did better.
What data do you have that contradicts these findings?
(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.
BTW, the LA Times article quoted above is here:
Where Nothing Is Sacred
Many Czechs avoid organized religion. With communism and
strained ties to the church as a past, the future of belief
is iffy.
By Jeffrey Fleishman
Times Staff Writer
July 14, 2003
PRAGUE, Czech Republic - Saints peek out from alleys. Angels
fleck the skyline. In stone and marble, blackened and
grizzled, God's mysteries reside in this city's baroque
architecture. But try finding him in the skeptical Czech
soul.
"People don't know about God anymore," said Olga
Kopecka-Valeska, a writer and former religious radio
broadcaster. "They don't know what Christmas is about. They
are lost in art galleries when they see paintings of Jesus
Christ.
"One girl looked at a picture of the Crucifixion and asked,
'Who did that to him?' Her friend responded, 'The
Communists.' "
Recalcitrant and suspicious, Czechs are not entirely
godless. They just don't much care for organized religion.
Unlike its neighbor Poland, where Roman Catholicism and
nationalism are inseparable, the Czech Republic never forged
its identity around a church. Czechs are aloof when it comes
to matters of the divine and many view Catholicism -- the
predominant religion -- as a centuries-old oppressor that
was muffled by communism and then further diminished by the
baubles of capitalism.
Stir in a little anti-authority surrealism from novelist
Franz Kafka. Add a bit of musing by absurdist playwright and
former President Vaclav Havel. Count the budding Buddhists
on Wenceslas Square, or visit the sun worshipers of Bohemia.
And it becomes even more apparent that the spiritual
landscape in this castled nation of 10.2 million is not
rooted in stained-glass sanctity.
"There's a hostility toward what religion did to them in the
past," said Lawrence Cada, a Marianist brother from
Cleveland who is on a scouting mission to determine whether
the Catholic order should expand here. "The Czechs say
they're the most atheist country in Europe, and they say it
with some pride This is how Western civilization may look in
50 years, because people here believe they live a full life
without any religion."
A poll done by the European Values Study, a
Netherlands-based organization that tracks religious and
moral attitudes, found that fewer Czechs claim allegiance to
organized religion than any other people in Europe, except
Estonians, who are still trying to move beyond their Soviet
past. Only 33.6% of Czechs belong to a religious
denomination and only 11.7% attend services once a month or
more.
The Czech Roman Catholic Church has about 3 million
followers and the next largest, the Evangelical Church of
Czech Brethren, has about 200,000.
The countries bordering the Czech Republic are more
attentive to their deity. Nearly 96% of Poles belong to a
religion and 78% attend services regularly. The numbers for
Germany are 77% and 30%; for Austria, 88% and 42.5%. For
Slovakia, which with the Czech Republic once formed
Czechoslovakia, the statistics are 76.8% and 50%.
"I don't have confidence in the church. What can it do for
me?" said Daniel Petrzilka, an Internet programmer wearing a
T-shirt that read, "One Man Army."
"I don't need a church for God," he added. "I believe in
bits and pieces of different religions. I believe in
reincarnation, Christmas and nature. It's more liberalized."
The Catholic Church is not reaching hundreds of thousands of
young people like Petrzilka. The average age of priests is
67, and only 50% of the country's 3,000 parishes have clergy
in residence. It is not uncommon on weekends for one pastor
to travel to nine different churches to celebrate Mass. The
appeal of Pope John Paul II also has declined: In 1990,
300,000 Czechs attended the pope's Mass; fewer than 100,000
turned out seven years later.
"The churches don't know how to get closer to the daily
lives of the people," said Msgr. Daniel Herman, spokesman
for the nation's Catholic Bishops' Conference. "After so
long of being separated from the people, the church became a
kind of ghetto. After the persecution and brainwashing of
communism they live a horizontal life. There's no vertical
dimension of spirituality."
*
Blame it in part on a bloody religious history that reflects
the Czech disdain for authority. In the early 1400s, Jan
Hus, rector at Prague University, challenged the Vatican by
suggesting that lay Catholics be given wine as well as bread
during Communion. The practice is common today but was
considered heresy at the time.
Hus was burned at the stake on July 6, 1415. His followers
were enraged, and under the banner of the Hussite movement,
whose church today has 100,000 members, Czechs went to war
with the Catholic Church. Hus' challenge to the church
predates the Europe-wide Protestant reformation inspired a
century later by Martin Luther. The Czechs -- paying homage
to Hus' defiance -- built a monument to him in Prague's Old
Town Square, not far from markers commemorating the
Protestant noblemen hanged during the Hussite war.
Spiritual tumult raged generation after generation, and
Czechs came to regard the Catholic Church as a proxy for the
Austrian Hapsburgs who crushed their rebellions. When the
Hapsburg Empire collapsed after World War I, an
anti-Catholic backlash again swept the nation. This became
overshadowed by World War II and 40 years of Soviet
domination.
Czechs remain divided on the Catholic Church's role during
communism: Some say the church resisted Communist attempts
to weaken it; others say they allowed it to be manipulated
by Communist leaders.
"After all that history," said Jirina Siklova, a sociologist
and former dissident, "the Czechs are now in the midst of a
spiritual and moral hangover."
Pavel R. Rican, a religion professor at Prague's Charles
University, believes such torpor permeates all of Europe.
"I see empty churches in Germany and the Netherlands," he
said. "This is a European trend. I'm interested in what
comes after. The French philosopher Voltaire was in search
of the 'new sacred.' The 'old sacred' has vanished."
*
Up in the hills across the Vlata River, Milos Rejchrt, a
Protestant minister, sat in his kitchen, sipping white wine
at dusk. A balding man with a round face, Rejchrt enjoys
theological conundrums. Sometimes, he said, he senses a
rejuvenation of spirituality among Czechs. At other moments,
he sees political corruption and inklings of a society with
a diminishing moral code. Like many former dissidents, he
wonders where things are headed more than 13 years after the
fall of communism.
"There's religious promiscuity in the widest sense," he
said. "People will be Catholic one day, Protestant the next
and then a Buddhist. Tradition is gone. Religion is living
on the reserves of the past. We have inertia. When faith is
separated from its religious sources, it dries up But what
happens on the judgment day when the final judge demands
account?"
Rejchrt doesn't answer.
"In my case," he said, "I need to be a minister. I know it's
important to the future."
Moored neither to religious fervor nor national pride, the
Czech present, according to many here, is adrift. There is a
sense of emptiness, but not despair. Brooding is leavened
with keen satirical humor. One minister, with a fondness for
metaphor, said the Czechs have pedestals, but they're
searching for the ideals to place upon them.
"Society has gotten to the point where it believes in
nothing," said Siklova, the sociologist. "The Czechs even
stopped identifying with their government and their army.
The invisible hand of the capitalist market has taken over.
There's an aggressive drive for the accumulation of capital
and not a lot of ethics."
On the Charles Bridge, one of Prague | | | | |
