Religions > Atheism > Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com?
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jim Spaza" |
| Date: |
10 Jun 2005 04:20:04 PM |
| Object: |
Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
This challenge was issued by GlennGlenn (655321) -- aa#825.
What is wrong with the Christian apologetic website
www.answersingenesis.com ???
Please be courteous and specific.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
06 Jul 2005 04:36:42 PM |
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JHC wrote:
"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:m8n8c1ht802c1dh1l6g1f51iek5lgj17m6@4ax.com...
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:19:32 -0700, in rec.photo.digital , "JHC"
<jhc@nospam.net> in <F7mdnRmiDvtd2FnfRVn-hg@comcast.com> wrote:
"Jim Spaza" <spaza9@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1120156442.415923.232410@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
... atheists believe that there is definitely no
Supreme Being ...
That's a straw man, atheism is not a religious belief like Christianity or
Islam for example, "Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in
the
existence of gods." -- http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html
You have gone beyond that, you have asserted that there is no God.
Where have I ever asserted that, liar? Got proof? Post a link or admit you
are lying.
Anyway, 'There is no God' is not an assertion, it is the denial (the
negation in logic) of one.
You are just trying to shift the burden of proof to the atheists who have
nothing (no thing) to prove, you do.
If I may jump in here. Matt, JHC, if you please: Define "god." In
order to have a lucid and coherent argument, you must define the
parameters of the argument, as well as the subject of the argument.
What is a "god" anyway?
Until that time, you're going to continue this semantic finger-pointing
and never have any progress.
So, JHC, you first. What is a "god"?
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, *
* the non-existence of Zeus or Thor - but they *
* have few followers now." Arthur C. Clarke *
****************************************************
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
06 Jul 2005 04:59:34 PM |
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On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:32:40 -0700, in rec.photo.digital , "JHC"
<jhc@nospam.net> in <gb2dnb4l_spq0FHfRVn-3g@comcast.com> wrote:
"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:m8n8c1ht802c1dh1l6g1f51iek5lgj17m6@4ax.com...
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:19:32 -0700, in rec.photo.digital , "JHC"
<jhc@nospam.net> in <F7mdnRmiDvtd2FnfRVn-hg@comcast.com> wrote:
"Jim Spaza" <spaza9@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1120156442.415923.232410@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
... atheists believe that there is definitely no
Supreme Being ...
That's a straw man, atheism is not a religious belief like Christianity or
Islam for example, "Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in
the
existence of gods." -- http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html
You have gone beyond that, you have asserted that there is no God.
Where have I ever asserted that, liar? Got proof? Post a link or admit you
are lying.
I am sorry, I did not mean you in particular, I was referring to the
non-existent person under discussion who says "there is not God".
Anyway, 'There is no God' is not an assertion, it is the denial (the
negation in logic) of one.
You are just trying to shift the burden of proof to the atheists who have
nothing (no thing) to prove, you do.
Atheists are a large diverse group. There are those who hold strong
atheism positions, the one you assert there. There are those who hold
weak atheism positions.
--
Matt Silberstein
I needed a drink, I needed a lot of life insurance, I needed a vacation, I needed a home in the country. What I had was a coat, a hat and a gun.
Raymond Chandler
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
30 Jun 2005 05:20:58 PM |
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In alt.atheism On 30 Jun 2005 11:34:02 -0700, "Jim Spaza"
<> let us all know that:
Attila wrote:
On 28 Jun 2005 08:43:36 -0700, in alt.abortion with
message-id <1119973416.475096.107790@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
wrote:
I will assert that anyone can ask any g(G)od(s) for anything. Whether
those or other g(G)od(s) will respond in some way is a different
question.
True. The Bible says that God is omniscient and can hear and see
everything that a person does, says, and even thinks.
Since you have yet to prove your bible is valid why should anyone pay
any attention to your comments? Why do you keep referring to an
unproven source?
For the same reason that atheists believe that there is definitely no
Supreme Being, I have trusted in my judgment as you have in yours.
No, you trust in a rationalization. We trust in reality.
The
difference is that one doesn't need infinite knowledge of the cosmos to
be a Christian and believe the Bible. But to be an atheist...to assert
that one has 100% infallible knowledge of every aspect of the universe
Atheists don't need to assert that, unless you want to say
that you need 100% infallible knowledge to assert that there are no
square circles. Want to do that? Didn't think so.
In any event, the Bible is a proven source of wisdom
No, it's not.
It is accurate
about human nature,
No, it's not.
history,
No, it's not.
and how people should relate to each
other.
Not that, either.
[snip]
* If you read the Bible, you'll be able to see how God takes those who
trust in Him and heals their lives and has them fulfull their destiny.
Being "saved" is more than just going to Heaven when you die. God will
actively direct the earthly existence of everyone who accepts Jesus as
Lord.
But that would violate free will.
If God doesn't exist, at least as described by the Bible, then these
will not come true no matter how long one waits for a response. Please
keep in mind that God knows what is in your heart.
Blood.
We run into trouble when we simply ask God for things
that are outside of His will and do not study the Bible to see how God
responds.
You have yet to prove any god exists, you have yet to validate your
bible, and if your god is able to do anything how can anything be
''outside of his will'?
I tried to get you to read the Bible and see if obeying the Bible would
result in a better life for you.
How do you know that he hasn't?
Have you seriously never talked to someone who has stopped being a
Christian? I am somewhat surprised. I know plenty of people who have
had various beliefs, including various forms of Christianity, and
stopped when their prayers were ignored. In fact, your claim is rather
unusual because usually I see the response that you just have to
believe harder.
I have never seriously spoken with anyone who has stopped being a
Christian. Actually, the term "Christian" means that one has trusted
in what Jesus did on the cross for that person's sins as opposed to
someone who simply says that the God of the Bible is real and shows up
in church sometimes.
I guess I don't fit your definition because I said 'this does not make
sense ' as soon as I was old enough to recognize what did not make
sense.
Well, you can be a Christian without understanding a great deal about
God.
And no xer even understand what god is. No xer can coherently
define god. Ergo, no xer knows what s/he is talking about when s/he
says "god".
I would never tell someone to simply believe "harder". I would tell
them that God loves them and has a plan for them...regardless of what
they have done, how they might have messed up their lives, and how much
they might want something in particular.
Yet you can't prove any god exists. You are obviously speculating far
beyond your knowledge.
True, to a point. I can't prove to you any supernatural events or
entities, at least, not over the internet. I am obviously speculating
in a way, but not beyond my knowledge. I am speculating beyond my
experience, which is a component of faith.
And faith is not an epistemic means.
Don
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
30 Jun 2005 10:28:02 PM |
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Jim Spaza wrote:
Attila wrote:
On 28 Jun 2005 08:43:36 -0700, in alt.abortion with
message-id <1119973416.475096.107790@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
wrote:
I will assert that anyone can ask any g(G)od(s) for anything. Whether
those or other g(G)od(s) will respond in some way is a different
question.
True. The Bible says that God is omniscient and can hear and see
everything that a person does, says, and even thinks.
Since you have yet to prove your bible is valid why should anyone pay
any attention to your comments? Why do you keep referring to an
unproven source?
For the same reason that atheists believe
Sorry. We don't believe. Rest of post snipped because the beginning is
false. Thanks for playing.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
30 Jun 2005 08:07:50 PM |
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On 30 Jun 2005 11:34:02 -0700, "Jim Spaza" <> in
alt.abortion with message-id
<1120156442.415923.232410@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Attila wrote:
On 28 Jun 2005 08:43:36 -0700, in alt.abortion with
message-id <1119973416.475096.107790@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
wrote:
I will assert that anyone can ask any g(G)od(s) for anything. Whether
those or other g(G)od(s) will respond in some way is a different
question.
True. The Bible says that God is omniscient and can hear and see
everything that a person does, says, and even thinks.
Since you have yet to prove your bible is valid why should anyone pay
any attention to your comments? Why do you keep referring to an
unproven source?
For the same reason that atheists believe that there is definitely no
Supreme Being, I have trusted in my judgment as you have in yours.
Exactly where have I made such an assertion?
The
difference is that one doesn't need infinite knowledge of the cosmos to
be a Christian and believe the Bible.
No, simply the ability to speculate far beyond your knowledge.
But to be an atheist...to assert
that one has 100% infallible knowledge of every aspect of the universe
to KNOW that there is no such thing as God ANYWHERE...that requires
infinite knowledge.
That is not the position of all atheists, Personally, I cannot prove
any such statement so I would never make it. I can conclude that the
complete lack of any evidence that any god exists certainly strongly
indicates no god exists but i cannot prove it.
Thus, the atheist inherently assumes that he/she
has god-like insight and cannot be wrong.
Not at all.
Because of atheism's own
inherent illogic, it's easier to believe the Bible.
Not really.
In any event, the Bible is a proven source of wisdom.
Not really - especially when measured against other religions. They
can all say that to some extent.
It is accurate
about human nature, history, and how people should relate to each
other.
Not really. Much of it's "history" has not been independently
verified, and the same relationship suggestions can be found in many
religions.
It is more accurate in these regards than all of the self-help,
pop-psychology books put together.
Which has nothing to do with any of it's supernatural aspects, even if
what you say is true.
Why shouldn't I then trust the
Bible about the supernatural accounts?
Why should you? Or anyone else? What proof is there that it is true?
Does the fact that Atlanta exists and the Civil War was fought make
every word in Gone With The Wind absolute truth?
Plenty of people, plenty of Christians even, have prayed and not
gotten results. (Of course there is always the out that God answer all
prayer, sometimes the answer is "no". But that is certainly
untestable.) In fact, plenty of praying believing Christians have
prayed and then killed and been killed by other praying believing
Christians. This is not a particularly successful test.
There are actually some guarantees in the Bible that can be tested like
anything else.
Such as what? Be specific, and explain how a given result can have no
other explanation.
OK.
"Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty
things, which thou knowest not." - Jeremiah 33:3
Meaningless. Are you saying that ever single time this will occur?
Without fail?
"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in
mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I
will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing,
that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it]." - Malachi
3:10
Meaningless. Are you saying that ever single time this will occur?
Without fail?
* Please note that there is some discussion as to whether or not this
Malachi verse is only for the Jewish people.
And the greatest promise of all time...
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." -
Romans 10:13
Prove that.
* If you read the Bible, you'll be able to see how God takes those who
trust in Him and heals their lives and has them fulfull their destiny.
Being "saved" is more than just going to Heaven when you die. God will
actively direct the earthly existence of everyone who accepts Jesus as
Lord.
Prove it.
If God doesn't exist, at least as described by the Bible, then these
will not come true no matter how long one waits for a response.
Does that not frequently happen? Especially since there is no way to
identify most of the terms used. Exactly how do you prove these
things actually happen?
Please
keep in mind that God knows what is in your heart.
Which god? There seems to be so many.
If you pray to Him
as you would jokingly cast a spell or pray to "whomever may be
listening", I doubt God will respond. Don't pray halfway.
And exactly where is this halfway found? Specifically can exactly the
same result be observed every time, like turning a light bulb on and
off?
We run into trouble when we simply ask God for things
that are outside of His will and do not study the Bible to see how God
responds.
You have yet to prove any god exists, you have yet to validate your
bible, and if your god is able to do anything how can anything be
''outside of his will'?
I tried to get you to read the Bible and see if obeying the Bible would
result in a better life for you. You refused to even crack open the
book much less try one or two of the tidbits of wisdom.
That is correct. And will remain so until I see proof some god
exists.
Do you ever say anything that makes any sense?
Yes. You just don't like my conclusions.
They don't make sense.
Have you seriously never talked to someone who has stopped being a
Christian? I am somewhat surprised. I know plenty of people who have
had various beliefs, including various forms of Christianity, and
stopped when their prayers were ignored. In fact, your claim is rather
unusual because usually I see the response that you just have to
believe harder.
I have never seriously spoken with anyone who has stopped being a
Christian. Actually, the term "Christian" means that one has trusted
in what Jesus did on the cross for that person's sins as opposed to
someone who simply says that the God of the Bible is real and shows up
in church sometimes.
I guess I don't fit your definition because I said 'this does not make
sense ' as soon as I was old enough to recognize what did not make
sense.
Well, you can be a Christian without understanding a great deal about
God. The thief on the cross next to Jesus accepted Him as Lord and was
saved...and the thief didn't understand much at all about Jesus.
Prove any of this actually happened.
I would not hazard a guess as to what didn't make sense to you without
your mentioning the reasons yourself.
It does not make sense to speculate far beyond knowledge and accept
that speculation as truth.
I would never tell someone to simply believe "harder". I would tell
them that God loves them and has a plan for them...regardless of what
they have done, how they might have messed up their lives, and how much
they might want something in particular.
Yet you can't prove any god exists. You are obviously speculating far
beyond your knowledge.
True, to a point. I can't prove to you any supernatural events or
entities, at least, not over the internet. I am obviously speculating
in a way, but not beyond my knowledge. I am speculating beyond my
experience, which is a component of faith.
And totally irrelevant because that has no meaning for anyone but you.
Yes, God wants people to have faith in Him. Yes, faith in God is
indeed tied to God's responce. However, I would NEVER tell someone
that the reason God didn't respond, or didn't respond the way that
person wanted, is because they didn't believe "harder". It's not very
helpful. And, unless that person told me or God gave me some divine
revelation, I wouldn't know the circumstances surrounding their
relationship with God. In that case, it's better to remain silent and
be there to console the person.
Yet you can't prove any god exists. You are obviously speculating far
beyond your knowledge.
Yes, you said that already.
And it seems it must be repeated.
Ah, so that is not a test. I suppose those who found God and then went
back to their addiction just did not believe hard enough.
No, sir. Even devout Christians are tempted to do evil things all the
time. It's not like a person accepts Jesus as Lord and then all of
life suddenly becomes easy and profitable. It is just that living the
life that God wants to you has now become possible whereas, prior to
accepting Jesus, life is a crap shoot where all you have is your own
willpower and five senses.
If a person becomes "saved", "born again", "accepts Jesus", etc...if
the person now has a relationship with God accordingly to His plan as
laid out in the Bible, then that person has the complete freedom to
choose good over evil in EVERY circumstance. He may not protected from
all evil possibilities, but has the strength and opportunity to always
choose the right thing to do.
Some Christians still choose to use their own abilities to do the right
thing, such as avoid drug addiction, instead of praying to God for
strength and choosing to live their lives wisely. In my opinion based
on the Bible, it is not God's plan for a recovering alcoholic to fill
his refrigerator with beer, have bottles of Jack Daniels whiskey out in
the open, and hang around bars. Why would that person blame God for
not responding when he has purposefully surrounded himself with
temptation. God will provide the open door; it is out responsibility
to choose to walk through it (and avoid the doors that we try to open
ourselves).
Sorry to be so long-winded. It's difficult to describe God's will as
specified in the Bible in a paragraph or two.
Yet you can't prove any god exists. You are obviously speculating far
beyond your knowledge.
Yes, you said that already.
And it seems it must be repeated.
I think you behavior is better than most I see in these forums, both
theists and non-theists.
Thank you for the compliment. At least, I am doing something right
here.
I would disagree. I have seen you do nothing right - just lie a lot.
Ouch. That's a little rude, don't you think?
Not nearly as rude as insulting my intelligence by trying to get me to
accept that which you cannot even prove as true.
Can't we have a friendly
discussion without accusations? If you are correct in your assessment
of the universe, then why not help others, who do not share your view,
to see things the way that you do? Thanks.
I am only asking a few basic questions, such as requests to prove any
god exists and to prove the content of religious books is in fact
true.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
30 Jun 2005 03:58:44 PM |
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On 30 Jun 2005 11:34:02 -0700, in rec.photo.digital , "Jim Spaza"
<> in
<1120156442.415923.232410@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Attila wrote:
On 28 Jun 2005 08:43:36 -0700, in alt.abortion with
message-id <1119973416.475096.107790@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
wrote:
I will assert that anyone can ask any g(G)od(s) for anything. Whether
those or other g(G)od(s) will respond in some way is a different
question.
True. The Bible says that God is omniscient and can hear and see
everything that a person does, says, and even thinks.
Since you have yet to prove your bible is valid why should anyone pay
any attention to your comments? Why do you keep referring to an
unproven source?
For the same reason that atheists believe that there is definitely no
Supreme Being, I have trusted in my judgment as you have in yours. The
difference is that one doesn't need infinite knowledge of the cosmos to
be a Christian and believe the Bible. But to be an atheist...to assert
that one has 100% infallible knowledge of every aspect of the universe
to KNOW that there is no such thing as God ANYWHERE...that requires
infinite knowledge. Thus, the atheist inherently assumes that he/she
has god-like insight and cannot be wrong. Because of atheism's own
inherent illogic, it's easier to believe the Bible.
It does not take an infinite amount of information to refute a
specific assertion of a specific deity. For example, there is no
visible God moving the Moon or the Sun. For another, more relevant
example, there is no non-deceptive God (with deceptive gods all best
are off) who created the Earth recently or who Flooded the world and
kill all land animals (except those few preserved in a boat) in the
last, say, 150,000 years. It does not take an infinite amount of
knowledge to support that conclusion.
In any event, the Bible is a proven source of wisdom. It is accurate
about human nature, history, and how people should relate to each
other. It is more accurate in these regards than all of the self-help,
pop-psychology books put together. Why shouldn't I then trust the
Bible about the supernatural accounts?
For several reasons. First, this accuracy is in significant dispute. I
bet you I can find 20 apparently (from any external evidence)
believing Christians who disagree on some of those claims. These would
be people who do think that the Bible is the Word of God.
Second, accurate history and accurate psychology are well within the
capability of humans and certainly within the capability of beings far
less powerful than Universe creators.
I suspect that your reasoning when the other way. You believe in God
and so found the Bible accurate.
Plenty of people, plenty of Christians even, have prayed and not
gotten results. (Of course there is always the out that God answer all
prayer, sometimes the answer is "no". But that is certainly
untestable.) In fact, plenty of praying believing Christians have
prayed and then killed and been killed by other praying believing
Christians. This is not a particularly successful test.
There are actually some guarantees in the Bible that can be tested like
anything else.
Such as what? Be specific, and explain how a given result can have no
other explanation.
OK.
"Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty
things, which thou knowest not." - Jeremiah 33:3
Again, I know people who have called and gotten only silence as the
response.
"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in
mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I
will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing,
that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it]." - Malachi
3:10
And, yet, Christians have starved while believing.
* Please note that there is some discussion as to whether or not this
Malachi verse is only for the Jewish people.
Jews have starved as well.
And the greatest promise of all time...
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." -
Romans 10:13
And how do you test this "saved" quality? What can we do here to
determine if someone is saved or not?
[snip]
[snip]
Yet you can't prove any god exists. You are obviously speculating far
beyond your knowledge.
Yes, you said that already.
Repetition is good for the soul.
Oh, wait, that is confession. I have to pay more attention to those TV
ads.
I think you behavior is better than most I see in these forums, both
theists and non-theists.
Thank you for the compliment. At least, I am doing something right
here.
I would disagree. I have seen you do nothing right - just lie a lot.
I have seen him disagree and assert his belief. But lie? Not that I
have seen. I have seen him show more intellectual openness and honesty
than the "atheists" on this thread.
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
I needed a drink, I needed a lot of life insurance, I needed a vacation, I needed a home in the country. What I had was a coat, a hat and a gun.
Raymond Chandler
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| User: "Jim Spaza" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
01 Jul 2005 03:57:31 PM |
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Matt Silberstein wrote:
On 30 Jun 2005 11:34:02 -0700, in rec.photo.digital , "Jim Spaza"
< > in
<1120156442.415923.232410@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Attila wrote:
On 28 Jun 2005 08:43:36 -0700, in alt.abortion with
message-id <1119973416.475096.107790@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
wrote:
I will assert that anyone can ask any g(G)od(s) for anything. Whether
those or other g(G)od(s) will respond in some way is a different
question.
True. The Bible says that God is omniscient and can hear and see
everything that a person does, says, and even thinks.
Since you have yet to prove your bible is valid why should anyone pay
any attention to your comments? Why do you keep referring to an
unproven source?
For the same reason that atheists believe that there is definitely no
Supreme Being, I have trusted in my judgment as you have in yours. The
difference is that one doesn't need infinite knowledge of the cosmos to
be a Christian and believe the Bible. But to be an atheist...to assert
that one has 100% infallible knowledge of every aspect of the universe
to KNOW that there is no such thing as God ANYWHERE...that requires
infinite knowledge. Thus, the atheist inherently assumes that he/she
has god-like insight and cannot be wrong. Because of atheism's own
inherent illogic, it's easier to believe the Bible.
It does not take an infinite amount of information to refute a
specific assertion of a specific deity. For example, there is no
visible God moving the Moon or the Sun. For another, more relevant
example, there is no non-deceptive God (with deceptive gods all best
are off) who created the Earth recently or who Flooded the world and
kill all land animals (except those few preserved in a boat) in the
last, say, 150,000 years. It does not take an infinite amount of
knowledge to support that conclusion.
True, if the religioun asserted ot be accurate made physically
verifiable promises which could be tested.
In any event, the Bible is a proven source of wisdom. It is accurate
about human nature, history, and how people should relate to each
other. It is more accurate in these regards than all of the self-help,
pop-psychology books put together. Why shouldn't I then trust the
Bible about the supernatural accounts?
For several reasons. First, this accuracy is in significant dispute. I
bet you I can find 20 apparently (from any external evidence)
believing Christians who disagree on some of those claims. These would
be people who do think that the Bible is the Word of God.
Unfortunately, you are correct. While most differences in opinions
concerning the Bible among professing Christians have to do with
someone's lack of Bible study, language analysis, and personal biases,
there are still a few objective disagreements among those who study and
pray a great deal. My own opinion is that God designed the Bible as a
historical account to be studied in a personal way, not as a scientific
manual whose facts can be assimilated objectively and merely taught as
pure fact. Such a design necessitates the individual person delving
into the Bible for themselves just as, in my opinion, God desires to
have individual relationships with each person themself, rather than
through an organization such as a church.
Second, accurate history and accurate psychology are well within the
capability of humans and certainly within the capability of beings far
less powerful than Universe creators.
It is just that I have never read such insightful analyses of the human
condition from any other book. And the Bible was "completed" almost
2,000 years ago. To me, that seems to be such a long time before
modern psychology was ever considered much less published and verified.
I suspect that your reasoning when the other way. You believe in God
and so found the Bible accurate.
Actually, I did first believe in God, but not necessarily exactly like
the Bible described. I really didn't know for certain. It all started
when I looked at the universe and its 70,000,000,000 (or how many ever)
stars, life on this planet, and how all existence has a beginning and
an end. I figured that only a Supreme Being could create such a
system. And this was before I really learned about subatomic
particles, organic chemistry, and physics. Maybe God was best
described by Islam, Hinduism, or Shintoism. Maybe there was no God per
se, but just a Force in the universe of which I could become part.
Then I read the Bible, and it made more sense to me than any other
religious book. I tried other religions and my own attempts at
supernatural investigation (witchcraft, for example). While some
non-Christian theories and practices had their legitimacy, none of
these ever made sense across the whole spectrum of religion - origin,
meaning, morality, and destiny. It was a strange, if not supernatural,
journey of discovery. The more I searched for God, the more the Bible
seemed to make sense which then just reinforced and expanded my beliefs
in the God of Israel more and more. And one day, I accepted Jesus as
my Lord and Savior. It wasn't as though I had complete belief in God
and then chose the Bible as the best explanation. And it wasn't as
though I studied the Bible and decided to believe in the God of Israel.
It was a weird mixture of the two which both occurred at the same time
and built upon each other. Some would say that this was nothing more
than a self-fulling prophecy. I know what I went through. I'm a
practical man who is not given to wild assumptions. It wasn't a
self-fulling prophecy.
Plenty of people, plenty of Christians even, have prayed and not
gotten results. (Of course there is always the out that God answer all
prayer, sometimes the answer is "no". But that is certainly
untestable.) In fact, plenty of praying believing Christians have
prayed and then killed and been killed by other praying believing
Christians. This is not a particularly successful test.
There are actually some guarantees in the Bible that can be tested like
anything else.
Such as what? Be specific, and explain how a given result can have no
other explanation.
OK.
"Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty
things, which thou knowest not." - Jeremiah 33:3
Again, I know people who have called and gotten only silence as the
response.
I can't comment without knowing those people for myself.
"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in
mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I
will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing,
that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it]." - Malachi
3:10
And, yet, Christians have starved while believing.
Yes, these conditions have occurred I suppose that some might be
waiting for me to give some lame attempt to explain away these
situations. All I can give for sure is a synopsis of what the Bible
says happened in the past under similar circumstances. The the
following MIGHT be happening:
* God is trying to get them to change something in their lives that
they refuse to let go off (for example, they are Christian but they
still like to dabble in the occult);
* they have never really accepted Jesus as Lord and have deceived
others about how to earn their way into Heaven;
* they do great evil in God's sight but say that they are Christian
whenever it financially or politically suits them;
* or God has opened a door for them to escape their conditions but they
do not recognize God's open door or trust that God really did answer
their prayers.
Again, until I walked a mile in their shoes or unless asked directly by
such hurting people, I would never "offer" these reasons to them. Such
a theological lesson handed down is usually only good after you give
them a hand up first.
* Please note that there is some discussion as to whether or not this
Malachi verse is only for the Jewish people.
Jews have starved as well.
True. In this case, the Bible speaks well on the subject of God's
chosen people being left to their own devices and abilities when they,
for one reason or another, rebel against Him. The Jewish people are an
interesting example to study, if you believe in God. When they obey
God, they tend to really get blessed. When they disobey God, they tend
to really get hammered. This is because God chose them to bring His
Word into the world and gave them more power, authority, and wisdom
than any other people. God has tends to have less patience with those
who He blesses with more ability.
And the greatest promise of all time...
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." -
Romans 10:13
And how do you test this "saved" quality? What can we do here to
determine if someone is saved or not?
There is no scientific test under controlled conditions...normally.
Do you really want to know about how to spot a real Christian? Do you
really want to know about supernatural powers and how these are used by
God to indicate who is blessed by Him and who isn't? I would like to
proceed, but I don't want to unless you are really open to such
possibilities that there just might be a God as described in the
Bible...just might. God warns people not to proclaim certain things
unless the listener has an open mind and unhardened heart about such
matters.
[snip]
[snip]
Yet you can't prove any god exists. You are obviously speculating far
beyond your knowledge.
Yes, you said that already.
Repetition is good for the soul.
Oh, wait, that is confession. I have to pay more attention to those TV
ads.
I think you behavior is better than most I see in these forums, both
theists and non-theists.
Thank you for the compliment. At least, I am doing something right
here.
I would disagree. I have seen you do nothing right - just lie a lot.
I have seen him disagree and assert his belief. But lie? Not that I
have seen. I have seen him show more intellectual openness and honesty
than the "atheists" on this thread.
You don't know how refreshing it is to have an open and honest
conversation and mutual respect as human beings even if nothing else is
ever agreed upon.
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
I needed a drink, I needed a lot of life insurance, I needed a vacation, I needed a home in the country. What I had was a coat, a hat and a gun.
Raymond Chandler
.
|
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|
| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
|
| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
06 Jul 2005 12:11:33 PM |
|
|
On 1 Jul 2005 13:57:31 -0700, in rec.photo.digital , "Jim Spaza"
<> in
<1120251451.169120.48680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote:
On 30 Jun 2005 11:34:02 -0700, in rec.photo.digital , "Jim Spaza"
< > in
<1120156442.415923.232410@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Attila wrote:
On 28 Jun 2005 08:43:36 -0700, in alt.abortion with
message-id <1119973416.475096.107790@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
wrote:
[snip]
Second, accurate history and accurate psychology are well within the
capability of humans and certainly within the capability of beings far
less powerful than Universe creators.
It is just that I have never read such insightful analyses of the human
condition from any other book. And the Bible was "completed" almost
2,000 years ago. To me, that seems to be such a long time before
modern psychology was ever considered much less published and verified.
So says believers in just about any similar system, from Buddhism to
Scientology to the latest pop-psych notion.
I suspect that your reasoning when the other way. You believe in God
and so found the Bible accurate.
Actually, I did first believe in God, but not necessarily exactly like
the Bible described. I really didn't know for certain. It all started
when I looked at the universe and its 70,000,000,000 (or how many ever)
stars, life on this planet, and how all existence has a beginning and
an end. I figured that only a Supreme Being could create such a
system.
Why one and not many? Sure seems to me that the evidence points to
multiple designers.
[snip]
"Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty
things, which thou knowest not." - Jeremiah 33:3
Again, I know people who have called and gotten only silence as the
response.
I can't comment without knowing those people for myself.
I will connect you in email.
"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in
mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I
will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing,
that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it]." - Malachi
3:10
And, yet, Christians have starved while believing.
Yes, these conditions have occurred I suppose that some might be
waiting for me to give some lame attempt to explain away these
situations. All I can give for sure is a synopsis of what the Bible
says happened in the past under similar circumstances. The the
following MIGHT be happening:
* God is trying to get them to change something in their lives that
they refuse to let go off (for example, they are Christian but they
still like to dabble in the occult);
* they have never really accepted Jesus as Lord and have deceived
others about how to earn their way into Heaven;
* they do great evil in God's sight but say that they are Christian
whenever it financially or politically suits them;
* or God has opened a door for them to escape their conditions but they
do not recognize God's open door or trust that God really did answer
their prayers.
Again, until I walked a mile in their shoes or unless asked directly by
such hurting people, I would never "offer" these reasons to them. Such
a theological lesson handed down is usually only good after you give
them a hand up first.
So you really have no answer.
[snip]
Do you really want to know about how to spot a real Christian? Do you
really want to know about supernatural powers and how these are used by
God to indicate who is blessed by Him and who isn't? I would like to
proceed, but I don't want to unless you are really open to such
possibilities that there just might be a God as described in the
Bible...just might. God warns people not to proclaim certain things
unless the listener has an open mind and unhardened heart about such
matters.
I suspect that this is simply not the proper forum for this. If I
choose to continue this can we do it in email?
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
I needed a drink, I needed a lot of life insurance, I needed a vacation, I needed a home in the country. What I had was a coat, a hat and a gun.
Raymond Chandler
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jim Spaza" |
|
| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
07 Jul 2005 08:33:16 AM |
|
|
Matt Silberstein wrote:
On 1 Jul 2005 13:57:31 -0700, in rec.photo.digital , "Jim Spaza"
< > in
<1120251451.169120.48680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote:
On 30 Jun 2005 11:34:02 -0700, in rec.photo.digital , "Jim Spaza"
< > in
<1120156442.415923.232410@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Attila wrote:
On 28 Jun 2005 08:43:36 -0700, in alt.abortion with
message-id <1119973416.475096.107790@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
wrote:
[snip]
Second, accurate history and accurate psychology are well within the
capability of humans and certainly within the capability of beings far
less powerful than Universe creators.
It is just that I have never read such insightful analyses of the human
condition from any other book. And the Bible was "completed" almost
2,000 years ago. To me, that seems to be such a long time before
modern psychology was ever considered much less published and verified.
So says believers in just about any similar system, from Buddhism to
Scientology to the latest pop-psych notion.
I suspect that your reasoning when the other way. You believe in God
and so found the Bible accurate.
Actually, I did first believe in God, but not necessarily exactly like
the Bible described. I really didn't know for certain. It all started
when I looked at the universe and its 70,000,000,000 (or how many ever)
stars, life on this planet, and how all existence has a beginning and
an end. I figured that only a Supreme Being could create such a
system.
Why one and not many? Sure seems to me that the evidence points to
multiple designers.
The consistency of logic throughout the cosmos indicates that there was
only one Mind behind the design. You don't see multiple laws of time
and space, do you? Physics is physics and chemistry is chemistry
regardless of time and location. Also, physics gets along with
chemistry. You don't see the two as "fighting" each other in this
existence. The fact that this universe still exists and hasn't
collapsed indicates that there is one Mind behind the whole thing. And
the fact that this universe still exists when most other alternative
combinations of chemistry and physics would have resulted in some
collapse of physical reality indicates that we're not here by random
chance.
[snip]
"Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty
things, which thou knowest not." - Jeremiah 33:3
Again, I know people who have called and gotten only silence as the
response.
I can't comment without knowing those people for myself.
I will connect you in email.
"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in
mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I
will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing,
that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it]." - Malachi
3:10
And, yet, Christians have starved while believing.
Yes, these conditions have occurred I suppose that some might be
waiting for me to give some lame attempt to explain away these
situations. All I can give for sure is a synopsis of what the Bible
says happened in the past under similar circumstances. The the
following MIGHT be happening:
* God is trying to get them to change something in their lives that
they refuse to let go off (for example, they are Christian but they
still like to dabble in the occult);
* they have never really accepted Jesus as Lord and have deceived
others about how to earn their way into Heaven;
* they do great evil in God's sight but say that they are Christian
whenever it financially or politically suits them;
* or God has opened a door for them to escape their conditions but they
do not recognize God's open door or trust that God really did answer
their prayers.
Again, until I walked a mile in their shoes or unless asked directly by
such hurting people, I would never "offer" these reasons to them. Such
a theological lesson handed down is usually only good after you give
them a hand up first.
So you really have no answer.
You wouldn't want me to proposed an definite answer without having been
there and done that, would you?
In any event, just like atheists who believe that we evolved from two
amino acids in a pool of primordial sludge, I believe that I have
logically-based theories based on current observable facts.
[snip]
Do you really want to know about how to spot a real Christian? Do you
really want to know about supernatural powers and how these are used by
God to indicate who is blessed by Him and who isn't? I would like to
proceed, but I don't want to unless you are really open to such
possibilities that there just might be a God as described in the
Bible...just might. God warns people not to proclaim certain things
unless the listener has an open mind and unhardened heart about such
matters.
I suspect that this is simply not the proper forum for this. If I
choose to continue this can we do it in email?
Yes, please. Feel free anytime -
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
I needed a drink, I needed a lot of life insurance, I needed a vacation, I needed a home in the country. What I had was a coat, a hat and a gun.
Raymond Chandler
.
|
|
|
| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
|
| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with ans | | | | | | |
