Religions > Atheism > Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com?
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jim Spaza" |
| Date: |
10 Jun 2005 04:20:04 PM |
| Object: |
Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
This challenge was issued by GlennGlenn (655321) -- aa#825.
What is wrong with the Christian apologetic website
www.answersingenesis.com ???
Please be courteous and specific.
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| User: "John Harshman" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
09 Aug 2005 03:15:24 PM |
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Jim Spaza wrote:
Cyde Weys wrote:
Jim Spaza wrote:
Without knowing the specifics of a person's life and having walked a
mile in their shoes, I would be extremely hesistant to comment on why
any one person had not received a response to their prayer.
I can offer general ideas. These are based on Biblical accounts where
people prayed to God, to one extent or the other, and God did or did
not respond.
Please know that this list is not exhaustive or conclusive:
1) God did respond, but the person honestly didn't recognize the
response as coming from God.
People tend to look for some great supernatural event which rarely
happens. God tends to use every day situations and activities through
which to respond. Look for coincidences and situations working out for
seemingly no reason.
2) God has not responded yet, but the person has his/her own timetable
that they expect God to keep.
3) God will not respond because the person wasn't sincere in their
request. Drinking a beer while watching a football game is not the
time to ask God to reveal Himself to make you a believer. If God
really is the absolute Supreme Being of the universe, treat Him as
such.
4) God did respond, but the person refuses to believe that it was God.
You're missing the most obvious one, although your faith blinds you to
it ..
5) God did not respond because God does not exist.
Actually, I once considered this "obvious" answer. I then came to the
logical conclusion that there is, in fact, has to be a Supreme Being.
I would be interested to know how you came, logically, to know this. And
I would also be interested to know how you came to identify this
logically necessary being with the Christian god.
And I would further be interested to know how you then decided that the
bible must be literally true. Does all this follow logically from the first?
All of my faith thus stems from this conclusion.
No it doesn't. If it did, you would have had no way to choose among all
the various gods who have been proposed, and more that haven't. There
must be something else that led you to Yahweh/Jesus/Holy Spirit
specifically.
Faith doesn't blind
me. However, it is a absolute unchanging conclusion that there can't
be a God which blinds some skeptics. Like the Bible says, there are
some who will adamantly refuse to believe even if someone were to rise
from the dead right in front of them.
An interesting assertion, and I would certainly like to know what there
is that we can observe today that rises to this level of evidence.
.
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| User: "Jim Spaza" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
19 Aug 2005 01:55:14 PM |
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John Harshman wrote:
Jim Spaza wrote:
Cyde Weys wrote:
Jim Spaza wrote:
Without knowing the specifics of a person's life and having walked a
mile in their shoes, I would be extremely hesistant to comment on why
any one person had not received a response to their prayer.
I can offer general ideas. These are based on Biblical accounts where
people prayed to God, to one extent or the other, and God did or did
not respond.
Please know that this list is not exhaustive or conclusive:
1) God did respond, but the person honestly didn't recognize the
response as coming from God.
People tend to look for some great supernatural event which rarely
happens. God tends to use every day situations and activities through
which to respond. Look for coincidences and situations working out for
seemingly no reason.
2) God has not responded yet, but the person has his/her own timetable
that they expect God to keep.
3) God will not respond because the person wasn't sincere in their
request. Drinking a beer while watching a football game is not the
time to ask God to reveal Himself to make you a believer. If God
really is the absolute Supreme Being of the universe, treat Him as
such.
4) God did respond, but the person refuses to believe that it was God.
You're missing the most obvious one, although your faith blinds you to
it ..
5) God did not respond because God does not exist.
Actually, I once considered this "obvious" answer. I then came to the
logical conclusion that there is, in fact, has to be a Supreme Being.
I would be interested to know how you came, logically, to know this. And
A Supreme Being is the only explanation for the existence of this
universe. Something cannot come from nothing.
I would also be interested to know how you came to identify this
logically necessary being with the Christian god.
From analysis of the Bible and from God's interaction with me.
And I would further be interested to know how you then decided that the
bible must be literally true. Does all this follow logically from the first?
No, the Bible does not have to be all literally true. There are some
figurative parts. Yet, I believe it to be divinely inspired due the
enormous amount of objective corroborating evidence. This is all in
addition to the personal, subjective experience.
All of my faith thus stems from this conclusion.
No it doesn't. If it did, you would have had no way to choose among all
the various gods who have been proposed, and more that haven't. There
must be something else that led you to Yahweh/Jesus/Holy Spirit
specifically.
A Supreme Being is a perfect being. Everything He/She/It does is
entirely logically consistent with His/Her/It's nature. Only the Bible
and Christianity are entirely logical and consistent across every
aspect: origin, meaning, morality, and destiny. Only the God of Israel
responded to me when I called out to Him.
Faith doesn't blind
me. However, it is a absolute unchanging conclusion that there can't
be a God which blinds some skeptics. Like the Bible says, there are
some who will adamantly refuse to believe even if someone were to rise
from the dead right in front of them.
An interesting assertion, and I would certainly like to know what there
is that we can observe today that rises to this level of evidence.
Objectively testable miracles, such as a dead person being resurrected,
would induce shock and awe. Yet, some would still not believe that God
did it, even if the now-alive person proclaims that Jesus is his Lord
and Savior.
Personal, subjective experience is really the only way that some will
ever believe.
Would you like God to reveal Himself and respond to you personally?
Are you really willing to change your beliefs if He does? Are you
willing to give up a worldview (abiogenesis, macro-evolution) forever
if God shows you otherwise?
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| User: "John Harshman" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
19 Aug 2005 02:26:43 PM |
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Jim Spaza wrote:
John Harshman wrote:
Jim Spaza wrote:
Cyde Weys wrote:
Jim Spaza wrote:
Without knowing the specifics of a person's life and having walked a
mile in their shoes, I would be extremely hesistant to comment on why
any one person had not received a response to their prayer.
I can offer general ideas. These are based on Biblical accounts where
people prayed to God, to one extent or the other, and God did or did
not respond.
Please know that this list is not exhaustive or conclusive:
1) God did respond, but the person honestly didn't recognize the
response as coming from God.
People tend to look for some great supernatural event which rarely
happens. God tends to use every day situations and activities through
which to respond. Look for coincidences and situations working out for
seemingly no reason.
2) God has not responded yet, but the person has his/her own timetable
that they expect God to keep.
3) God will not respond because the person wasn't sincere in their
request. Drinking a beer while watching a football game is not the
time to ask God to reveal Himself to make you a believer. If God
really is the absolute Supreme Being of the universe, treat Him as
such.
4) God did respond, but the person refuses to believe that it was God.
You're missing the most obvious one, although your faith blinds you to
it ..
5) God did not respond because God does not exist.
Actually, I once considered this "obvious" answer. I then came to the
logical conclusion that there is, in fact, has to be a Supreme Being.
I would be interested to know how you came, logically, to know this. And
A Supreme Being is the only explanation for the existence of this
universe. Something cannot come from nothing.
There are at least three problems with that.
1. If there needs to be a first cause, why does it have to be a single
being or even a being at all rather than some impersonal power?
2. If everything needs a cause, why doesn't the supreme being need a
cause (this is known as the "turtles all the way down" problem)?
3. There are theories of quantum physics in which the universe is indeed
uncaused. Of course quantum physics disposes of causality at the micro
level in general.
I would also be interested to know how you came to identify this
logically necessary being with the Christian god.
From analysis of the Bible and from God's interaction with me.
The problem with that is that only you can be convinced, and you might
be wrong. There are after all hindus and muslims who attest equally
strongly to their own interactions with their gods. You may know you're
right, but so do they. All but one of you (at a minimum) must be wrong.
How to decide? And we're back to square one.
And I would further be interested to know how you then decided that the
bible must be literally true. Does all this follow logically from the first?
No, the Bible does not have to be all literally true. There are some
figurative parts. Yet, I believe it to be divinely inspired due the
enormous amount of objective corroborating evidence. This is all in
addition to the personal, subjective experience.
OK. So if it doesn't have to be literally true, and if you can't be
entirely sure which are the figurative parts, then your faith can
presumably be made compatible with evolution without suffering severe
damage. Yes?
All of my faith thus stems from this conclusion.
No it doesn't. If it did, you would have had no way to choose among all
the various gods who have been proposed, and more that haven't. There
must be something else that led you to Yahweh/Jesus/Holy Spirit
specifically.
A Supreme Being is a perfect being. Everything He/She/It does is
entirely logically consistent with His/Her/It's nature. Only the Bible
and Christianity are entirely logical and consistent across every
aspect: origin, meaning, morality, and destiny. Only the God of Israel
responded to me when I called out to Him.
Oddly, that's just what the muslims and hindus would say too.
Faith doesn't blind
me. However, it is a absolute unchanging conclusion that there can't
be a God which blinds some skeptics. Like the Bible says, there are
some who will adamantly refuse to believe even if someone were to rise
from the dead right in front of them.
An interesting assertion, and I would certainly like to know what there
is that we can observe today that rises to this level of evidence.
Objectively testable miracles, such as a dead person being resurrected,
would induce shock and awe. Yet, some would still not believe that God
did it, even if the now-alive person proclaims that Jesus is his Lord
and Savior.
We may never know. There seems not be be an instance of this that's
objectively verifiable, or of any other such miracle. Certainly not
after science started paying attention.
Personal, subjective experience is really the only way that some will
ever believe.
Would you like God to reveal Himself and respond to you personally?
Are you really willing to change your beliefs if He does? Are you
willing to give up a worldview (abiogenesis, macro-evolution) forever
if God shows you otherwise?
If that happened, I would have to. I would however have a number of
pointed questions for him about why he arranged the evidence in the way
he did.
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
19 Aug 2005 03:31:54 PM |
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On 19 Aug 2005 11:55:14 -0700,
Jim Spaza <spaza9@yahoo.com> wrote:
A Supreme Being is the only explanation for the existence of this
universe. Something cannot come from nothing.
Why not? And even if I were to agree with you, by your own logic, that must
mean that the Supreme Being must have come from somewhere. Now you are
either forced to ignore your own logic (something must come from something)
or assert that the Supreme Being in turn required some creation, and that
the creator of your Supreme Being in turn required some creation, and so on
infinitely. Now you have not one entity (the universe) to explain, but an
infinite number, or you have to admit that your own logic has a serious
fault.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
19 Aug 2005 02:14:43 PM |
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On 19 Aug 2005 11:55:14 -0700, in talk.origins
"Jim Spaza" <spaza9@yahoo.com> wrote in
<1124477714.859413.194080@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
John Harshman wrote:
....
I would be interested to know how you came, logically, to know this. And
A Supreme Being is the only explanation for the existence of this
universe. Something cannot come from nothing.
You contradict your first sentence with your first sentence. If
something cannot come from nothing, the supreme being must be created by
another such being ad infinitum. At any point that you abandon your
claim that something cannot come from nothing (or at least from an
unknown or unknowable origin) your infinite regress disappears and no
supreme being needs to be invoked.
I would also be interested to know how you came to identify this
logically necessary being with the Christian god.
From analysis of the Bible and from God's interaction with me.
So have you not studied any of the other religions and what they teach?
And I would further be interested to know how you then decided that the
bible must be literally true. Does all this follow logically from the first?
No, the Bible does not have to be all literally true. There are some
figurative parts. Yet, I believe it to be divinely inspired due the
enormous amount of objective corroborating evidence. This is all in
addition to the personal, subjective experience.
Okay.
All of my faith thus stems from this conclusion.
No it doesn't. If it did, you would have had no way to choose among all
the various gods who have been proposed, and more that haven't. There
must be something else that led you to Yahweh/Jesus/Holy Spirit
specifically.
A Supreme Being is a perfect being. Everything He/She/It does is
entirely logically consistent with His/Her/It's nature. Only the Bible
and Christianity are entirely logical and consistent across every
aspect: origin, meaning, morality, and destiny. Only the God of Israel
responded to me when I called out to Him.
I don't think you are familiar with other faiths. Islam, Christianity
and Judaism all describe the God of Abraham differently, with
Christianity being notably different from the other two.
Faith doesn't blind
me. However, it is a absolute unchanging conclusion that there can't
be a God which blinds some skeptics. Like the Bible says, there are
some who will adamantly refuse to believe even if someone were to rise
from the dead right in front of them.
An interesting assertion, and I would certainly like to know what there
is that we can observe today that rises to this level of evidence.
Objectively testable miracles, such as a dead person being resurrected,
would induce shock and awe. Yet, some would still not believe that God
did it, even if the now-alive person proclaims that Jesus is his Lord
and Savior.
But those things don't happen so it doesn't matter.
Personal, subjective experience is really the only way that some will
ever believe.
Anecdotes may work for you, but they aren't data, they aren't evidence.
Would you like God to reveal Himself and respond to you personally?
Are you really willing to change your beliefs if He does? Are you
willing to give up a worldview (abiogenesis, macro-evolution) forever
if God shows you otherwise?
I've been a believer. If you like, my God-given ability to think forced
me to reject the teachings of anti-science creationists. I eventually
drifted away from a belief that there is a god of any sort for other
reasons, as well.
.
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| User: "Jim Spaza" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
20 Aug 2005 08:40:26 PM |
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David Jensen wrote:
On 19 Aug 2005 11:55:14 -0700, in talk.origins
"Jim Spaza" <spaza9@yahoo.com> wrote in
<1124477714.859413.194080@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
John Harshman wrote:
...
I would be interested to know how you came, logically, to know this. And
A Supreme Being is the only explanation for the existence of this
universe. Something cannot come from nothing.
You contradict your first sentence with your first sentence. If
something cannot come from nothing, the supreme being must be created by
another such being ad infinitum. At any point that you abandon your
claim that something cannot come from nothing (or at least from an
unknown or unknowable origin) your infinite regress disappears and no
supreme being needs to be invoked.
I understand. Perhaps I should have said that anything indigenous to
this universe, anything made up of material of this universe, must have
could not come from nothing. Given that God created this universe,
this statement would not include Him.
I would also be interested to know how you came to identify this
logically necessary being with the Christian god.
From analysis of the Bible and from God's interaction with me.
So have you not studied any of the other religions and what they teach?
I have studied all of the major religions and a few minor ones. I have
experienced first hand Shintoism, witchcraft, and Christianity. I have
even dabbled in Satanism, although that didn't last too long
thankfully.
And I would further be interested to know how you then decided that the
bible must be literally true. Does all this follow logically from the first?
No, the Bible does not have to be all literally true. There are some
figurative parts. Yet, I believe it to be divinely inspired due the
enormous amount of objective corroborating evidence. This is all in
addition to the personal, subjective experience.
Okay.
All of my faith thus stems from this conclusion.
No it doesn't. If it did, you would have had no way to choose among all
the various gods who have been proposed, and more that haven't. There
must be something else that led you to Yahweh/Jesus/Holy Spirit
specifically.
A Supreme Being is a perfect being. Everything He/She/It does is
entirely logically consistent with His/Her/It's nature. Only the Bible
and Christianity are entirely logical and consistent across every
aspect: origin, meaning, morality, and destiny. Only the God of Israel
responded to me when I called out to Him.
I don't think you are familiar with other faiths. Islam, Christianity
and Judaism all describe the God of Abraham differently, with
Christianity being notably different from the other two.
Actually, Islam is far different from Christianity and Judaism than
these two are from each other.
Islam teaches that Allah is distant, removed, and cannot be understood.
Heaven is never guaranteed and is somewhat different than what the
Bible (Old Testament and New Testament) says. Allah commands that
unbelievers be killed if they will not submit to Islam. The Bible
teaches that God wants His people to love and pray for those who will
not submit. The list goes on...
The principle different between Christianity and Judaism is the belief
that Jesus is the prophesized Messiah. Christians believe that the
Messiah is more than an earthly ruler, that He is God come as a man to
make the payment for everyone's sins.
Interestingly, Islam teaches that Jesus was a prophet, performed
miracles, and was without sin.
Faith doesn't blind
me. However, it is a absolute unchanging conclusion that there can't
be a God which blinds some skeptics. Like the Bible says, there are
some who will adamantly refuse to believe even if someone were to rise
from the dead right in front of them.
An interesting assertion, and I would certainly like to know what there
is that we can observe today that rises to this level of evidence.
Objectively testable miracles, such as a dead person being resurrected,
would induce shock and awe. Yet, some would still not believe that God
did it, even if the now-alive person proclaims that Jesus is his Lord
and Savior.
But those things don't happen so it doesn't matter.
Oh ye of little faith. :-)
Personal, subjective experience is really the only way that some will
ever believe.
Anecdotes may work for you, but they aren't data, they aren't evidence.
Not in a lab, correct. But, we humans were not made to look at the
universe only through a microscope. Maybe if something supernatural
happened to you, something without any natural explanation, maybe you'd
change your mind. That's what happened to me.
Would you like God to reveal Himself and respond to you personally?
Are you really willing to change your beliefs if He does? Are you
willing to give up a worldview (abiogenesis, macro-evolution) forever
if God shows you otherwise?
I've been a believer. If you like, my God-given ability to think forced
me to reject the teachings of anti-science creationists. I eventually
drifted away from a belief that there is a god of any sort for other
reasons, as well.
Oh. It sounds like you have "been there and done that". So, then,
there was a time when you accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior and asked
God to forgive you of your sins because of Jesus' sacrifice on the
cross. When that happens, God sends His Holy Spirit to indwell one's
soul, granting supernatural wisdom and strength. I never thought that
it was possible for someone like that to no longer believe.
.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
20 Aug 2005 10:00:53 PM |
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On 20 Aug 2005 18:40:26 -0700, in talk.origins
"Jim Spaza" <spaza9@yahoo.com> wrote in
<1124588426.070738.304960@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>:
David Jensen wrote:
On 19 Aug 2005 11:55:14 -0700, in talk.origins
"Jim Spaza" <spaza9@yahoo.com> wrote in
<1124477714.859413.194080@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
John Harshman wrote:
...
I would be interested to know how you came, logically, to know this. And
A Supreme Being is the only explanation for the existence of this
universe. Something cannot come from nothing.
You contradict your first sentence with your first sentence. If
something cannot come from nothing, the supreme being must be created by
another such being ad infinitum. At any point that you abandon your
claim that something cannot come from nothing (or at least from an
unknown or unknowable origin) your infinite regress disappears and no
supreme being needs to be invoked.
I understand. Perhaps I should have said that anything indigenous to
this universe, anything made up of material of this universe, must have
could not come from nothing. Given that God created this universe,
this statement would not include Him.
So, what was the universe like before Planck time?
I would also be interested to know how you came to identify this
logically necessary being with the Christian god.
From analysis of the Bible and from God's interaction with me.
So have you not studied any of the other religions and what they teach?
I have studied all of the major religions and a few minor ones. I have
experienced first hand Shintoism, witchcraft, and Christianity. I have
even dabbled in Satanism, although that didn't last too long
thankfully.
As a one-time Christian who still admires the teachings of Jesus, I see
no evidence to support your conclusion.
I don't think you are familiar with other faiths. Islam, Christianity
and Judaism all describe the God of Abraham differently, with
Christianity being notably different from the other two.
Actually, Islam is far different from Christianity and Judaism than
these two are from each other.
Islam teaches that Allah is distant, removed, and cannot be understood.
Really, that was not my understanding of it, at all.
Heaven is never guaranteed and is somewhat different than what the
Bible (Old Testament and New Testament) says.
What does the Old Testament teach about Heaven?
Allah commands that
unbelievers be killed if they will not submit to Islam.
Not exactly.
The Bible
teaches that God wants His people to love and pray for those who will
not submit. The list goes on...
My experience is that proponents of one religion are not always
particularly careful to present other religions accurately. Islam,
though no more unitary than Christianity, has often been misrepresented
by Christians who do not agree with its doctrines.
The principle different between Christianity and Judaism is the belief
that Jesus is the prophesized Messiah. Christians believe that the
Messiah is more than an earthly ruler, that He is God come as a man to
make the payment for everyone's sins.
Trinitarianism is often considered to be polytheistic by other
monotheistic religions.
Interestingly, Islam teaches that Jesus was a prophet, performed
miracles, and was without sin.
As was Moses.
....
Objectively testable miracles, such as a dead person being resurrected,
would induce shock and awe. Yet, some would still not believe that God
did it, even if the now-alive person proclaims that Jesus is his Lord
and Savior.
But those things don't happen so it doesn't matter.
Oh ye of little faith. :-)
It's strange how miracles always happen somewhere else at some other
time.
Personal, subjective experience is really the only way that some will
ever believe.
Anecdotes may work for you, but they aren't data, they aren't evidence.
Not in a lab, correct. But, we humans were not made to look at the
universe only through a microscope. Maybe if something supernatural
happened to you, something without any natural explanation, maybe you'd
change your mind. That's what happened to me.
I'm sure you believe that.
Would you like God to reveal Himself and respond to you personally?
Are you really willing to change your beliefs if He does? Are you
willing to give up a worldview (abiogenesis, macro-evolution) forever
if God shows you otherwise?
I've been a believer. If you like, my God-given ability to think forced
me to reject the teachings of anti-science creationists. I eventually
drifted away from a belief that there is a god of any sort for other
reasons, as well.
Oh. It sounds like you have "been there and done that". So, then,
there was a time when you accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior and asked
God to forgive you of your sins because of Jesus' sacrifice on the
cross. When that happens, God sends His Holy Spirit to indwell one's
soul, granting supernatural wisdom and strength. I never thought that
it was possible for someone like that to no longer believe.
Why not?
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
19 Aug 2005 04:25:16 PM |
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On 19 Aug 2005 11:55:14 -0700, in talk.origins , "Jim Spaza"
<spaza9@yahoo.com> in
<1124477714.859413.194080@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
[snip]
A Supreme Being is the only explanation for the existence of this
universe. Something cannot come from nothing.
I have a different take on this than the others. My feeling is so
what? Let us accept, for the moment, that some "Supreme Being" did
create the Universe. There is not one single other thing you can tell
me about this being. You can't connect it to a being that created the
Earth or one that created Life or one that wrote the Bible or one that
gives a hoot what I do. It is an empty statement because it has no
implications at all. As another example, you can't say whether this
being exist itself before or after creating the Universe.
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
And now our bodies are oh so close and tight
It never felt so good, it never felt so right
And we're glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife
C'mon! Hold on tight!
C'mon! Hold on tight!
Though it's cold and lonley in the deep dark night
I can see paradise by the dashboard light
Paradise by the dashboard light
Jim Steinman
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
09 Aug 2005 03:24:28 PM |
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On 9 Aug 2005 13:02:03 -0700, in talk.origins
"Jim Spaza" <spaza9@yahoo.com> wrote in
<1123617723.728241.201160@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
Cyde Weys wrote:
....
5) God did not respond because God does not exist.
Actually, I once considered this "obvious" answer. I then came to the
logical conclusion that there is, in fact, has to be a Supreme Being.
No logic can ever force that conclusion.
All of my faith thus stems from this conclusion. Faith doesn't blind
me. However, it is a absolute unchanging conclusion that there can't
be a God which blinds some skeptics. Like the Bible says, there are
some who will adamantly refuse to believe even if someone were to rise
from the dead right in front of them.
.
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
20 Jul 2005 08:34:19 PM |
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On 20 Jul 2005 08:22:05 -0700,
Jim Spaza <spaza9@yahoo.com> wrote:
Eric Rowley wrote:
From: "Jim Spaza" <spaza9@yahoo.com>:
<snip>
JS> If you read the Bible, you'll see how God wants humans to
JS> strive to know Him. Please don't wait for God to hand you the
JS> secrets of the Bible and the natural universe on a silver
JS> platter while you sit in your flourescent-lit cubicle.
JS> Sometimes, He will. Most of the time, knowing God demands an
JS> adventurous heart which goes out into the world, taking
JS> physical and intellectual risks with no safety net.
JS> Leave the safety, security, and familiarity of your scientific
JS> cubicle and see the great amount of wisdom which God has
JS> prepared for you. All it takes is a little faith.
Great!
As soon as you tell me how to have even a little faith
in something I don't believe in I'll get started.
If it's that easy to turn on and off maybe you could have
a little faith in Zeus, just for a minute or two, as a little
demonstration?
Eric
Faith, in and of itself, is meaningless unless it is anchored to
something that really exists.
If you are really open-minded about the possibility of God's existence
as described in the Bible, then I'll be happy to tell you how to have
just "a little faith" to get started.
Let's start with...
"Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty
things, which thou knowest not." - Jeremiah 33:3
If you treat this as a flippant, irrelevant attempt while you're
drinking your coffee and reading the newspaper in the morning, then
nothing will ever happen. If the Bible is even somewhat accurate, then
God knows what you really desire and are thinking even right now.
But, if you are in any way serious...if you are really open to God's
existence and would consider changing your beliefs if God does
respond...then pray this prayer or something similar:
"God, I don't know if you exist. But, if you do, then let me know
somehow. I am open to changing my mind about you. If you do exist,
then I want to know who you are and maybe even start obeying you. Help
me and have mercy on me. In the Name of Your Son, Jesus. Amen."
Be ready and on the lookout for God responding. It may be through
visions, dreams, weird circumstances, coincidences, or maybe an angel
appearing to you. And you may have to wait a few days. Remember that
God has His own timetable for such things.
This sounds more like the signs of mental illness. Generally speaking if I
had such things occur, I would be seeking the advice of my family doctor,
with a referal to a specialist in mental disorders.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
18 Jul 2005 10:00:45 AM |
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On 18 Jul 2005 07:05:23 -0700,
Jim Spaza <spaza9@yahoo.com> wrote:
Herb Huston wrote:
In article <1121452989.315626.118260@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Jim Spaza <spaza9@yahoo.com> wrote:
}Herb Huston wrote:
}> In article <1121366290.657037.123800@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
}> Jim Spaza <spaza9@yahoo.com> wrote:
}> }Well, some of the assertions made above would be incompatible with
}> }sections of the Bible. And if those sections of the Bible are proven
}> }false, then the entire Biblical account and its divine inspiration
}> }aspect is then called into question.
}>
}> Do leporids really redigest their food in the manner described in Leviticus
}> 11:6?
}
}Thanks for making me Google the definition of "leporids". :-)
}
}This is from one of my previous posts in a different forum on this
}subject.
}
}Today, animals that "chew their cud" are called ruminants. They almost
}immediately swallow food when first eaten into a special stomach where
}the food is partially digested. Then it is regurgitated, chewed again,
}and swallowed into a different stomach. Animals which do this include
}cows, sheep and goats, and they all have four stomachs. Coneys and
}rabbits are not ruminants in this modern sense.
}
}However, "'alah", the Hebrew phrase for 'chew the cud', literally means
}to go up, ascend, or climb. In this context, it means to 'raise up
}what has been swallowed'.
}
}Coneys and rabbits go through such similar motions to ruminants that
}Linnaeus, the father of modern classification (and a creationist), at
}first classified them as ruminants. Also, rabbits and hares practise
}refection, which is essentially the same principle as rumination, and
}does indeed 'raise up what has been swallowed'. The food goes right
}through the rabbit and is passed out as a special type of dropping.
}These are re-eaten and can now nourish the rabbit as they have already
}been partly digested.
Refection is not a raising up of what has been swallowed. As you point
out above, the food passes through the rabbit.
}It is not an error of Scripture that 'chewing the cud' now has a more
}restrictive meaning than it did in Moses' day.
The meaning hasn't changed. It was rumination then, just as it is now.
Sure, except the author at the time didn't understand the biomechanics
of the digestion process, so when God explained things to him, He did
so in a manner befitting the author's technical knowledge. God has a
time and place for all knowledge to be discovered by humanity.
This is an interesting statement. Does this also apply to change in
heritable properties in populations over time, because the Bible puts
forward a form of inheritance that, to say the least, contradicts everything
we know now:
Genesis 30:37-39
And Jacob took him rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chesnut
tree; and pilled white strakes in them, and made the white appear which was
in the rods.
And he set the rods which he had pilled before the flocks in the gutters
in the watering troughs when the flocks came to drink, that they should
conceive when they came to drink.
And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle
ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.
Are there really avian chiropterans as stated in Leviticus 11:13-19?
I'll copy what I wrote previously concerning this same question:
Did the Bible really place a bat into the fowl family?
No, not in the original sense. This is one of the few translational
errors in the King James version of the Bible. The Hebrew word in use
is "owph", meaning to cover (with wings) or to fly. Fowls, at that
time, were considered more than what we do today.
Linnean classification was not available in the time of the writing of
the Old Testament. Neither was the scientific definition of "bird". At
that time, classification of animals and other living things was made
based on form or function, not some advanced scientific classification
system using genetics.
The fact that some translators were in error, science had not
classified things yet, and skeptics today don't do a word study of
Hebrew to test and verify all lead to such questions.
It seems to me that just as rational an explanation is that people believe
odd things back then, due to ignorance (see Jacob's sheep for that), made up
explanations that made sense to them, recorded those explanations and it
wasn't until later people came along that old beliefs were debunked.
Nothing unusual about that, it's happened across almost all cultures as a
better understanding of the natural world eliminates the need for thunder
gods, possessing spirits, omens in astronomical phenonoma, etc.
The problem is that because some people insist upon the literal truth of the
Bible, suddenly the texts are put through some rather difficult contortions.
While I'm sure some of the alleged inconsistencies can be explained away as
translator errors, there are passages that are simply wrong.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
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| User: "Jim Spaza" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
19 Jul 2005 12:31:24 PM |
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AC wrote:
On 18 Jul 2005 07:05:23 -0700,
Jim Spaza <spaza9@yahoo.com> wrote:
Herb Huston wrote:
In article <1121452989.315626.118260@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Jim Spaza <spaza9@yahoo.com> wrote:
}Herb Huston wrote:
}> In article <1121366290.657037.123800@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
}> Jim Spaza <spaza9@yahoo.com> wrote:
}> }Well, some of the assertions made above would be incompatible with
}> }sections of the Bible. And if those sections of the Bible are proven
}> }false, then the entire Biblical account and its divine inspiration
}> }aspect is then called into question.
}>
}> Do leporids really redigest their food in the manner described in Leviticus
}> 11:6?
}
}Thanks for making me Google the definition of "leporids". :-)
}
}This is from one of my previous posts in a different forum on this
}subject.
}
}Today, animals that "chew their cud" are called ruminants. They almost
}immediately swallow food when first eaten into a special stomach where
}the food is partially digested. Then it is regurgitated, chewed again,
}and swallowed into a different stomach. Animals which do this include
}cows, sheep and goats, and they all have four stomachs. Coneys and
}rabbits are not ruminants in this modern sense.
}
}However, "'alah", the Hebrew phrase for 'chew the cud', literally means
}to go up, ascend, or climb. In this context, it means to 'raise up
}what has been swallowed'.
}
}Coneys and rabbits go through such similar motions to ruminants that
}Linnaeus, the father of modern classification (and a creationist), at
}first classified them as ruminants. Also, rabbits and hares practise
}refection, which is essentially the same principle as rumination, and
}does indeed 'raise up what has been swallowed'. The food goes right
}through the rabbit and is passed out as a special type of dropping.
}These are re-eaten and can now nourish the rabbit as they have already
}been partly digested.
Refection is not a raising up of what has been swallowed. As you point
out above, the food passes through the rabbit.
}It is not an error of Scripture that 'chewing the cud' now has a more
}restrictive meaning than it did in Moses' day.
The meaning hasn't changed. It was rumination then, just as it is now.
Sure, except the author at the time didn't understand the biomechanics
of the digestion process, so when God explained things to him, He did
so in a manner befitting the author's technical knowledge. God has a
time and place for all knowledge to be discovered by humanity.
This is an interesting statement. Does this also apply to change in
heritable properties in populations over time, because the Bible puts
forward a form of inheritance that, to say the least, contradicts everything
we know now:
Genesis 30:37-39
And Jacob took him rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chesnut
tree; and pilled white strakes in them, and made the white appear which was
in the rods.
And he set the rods which he had pilled before the flocks in the gutters
in the watering troughs when the flocks came to drink, that they should
conceive when they came to drink.
And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle
ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.
Good example, except there is nothing in these passages nor the entire
book of Genesis to indicate that an animal's looking upon the rods
caused a biological change. Reading the surrounding passages, studying
Hebrew, and learning about the pagan practices of the time leads the
reader to rightfully conclude that the rods were all about supernatural
interactions, not naturally-occuring biology.
Are there really avian chiropterans as stated in Leviticus 11:13-19?
I'll copy what I wrote previously concerning this same question:
Did the Bible really place a bat into the fowl family?
No, not in the original sense. This is one of the few translational
errors in the King James version of the Bible. The Hebrew word in use
is "owph", meaning to cover (with wings) or to fly. Fowls, at that
time, were considered more than what we do today.
Linnean classification was not available in the time of the writing of
the Old Testament. Neither was the scientific definition of "bird". At
that time, classification of animals and other living things was made
based on form or function, not some advanced scientific classification
system using genetics.
The fact that some translators were in error, science had not
classified things yet, and skeptics today don't do a word study of
Hebrew to test and verify all lead to such questions.
It seems to me that just as rational an explanation is that people believe
odd things back then, due to ignorance (see Jacob's sheep for that), made up
explanations that made sense to them, recorded those explanations and it
wasn't until later people came along that old beliefs were debunked.
Nothing unusual about that, it's happened across almost all cultures as a
better understanding of the natural world eliminates the need for thunder
gods, possessing spirits, omens in astronomical phenonoma, etc.
This would be exactly true if...there is no God.
The problem is that because some people insist upon the literal truth of the
Bible, suddenly the texts are put through some rather difficult contortions.
While I'm sure some of the alleged inconsistencies can be explained away as
translator errors, there are passages that are simply wrong.
Well, one of the problems for some Christians is that they try to
naturally explain all of the events in order to make the Bible more
palatable to skeptics, as if skeptics would then suddenly change their
minds and starting believing.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
.
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| User: "Cheezits" |
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| Title: Re: Attn: Atheists & Skeptics - What's wrong with answersingenesis.com? |
19 Jul 2005 12:52:14 PM |
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"Jim Spaza" <spaza9@yahoo.com> wrote:
AC wrote:
[etc.]
Genesis 30:37-39
And Jacob took him rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and
chesnut
tree; and pilled white strakes in them, and made the white appear
which was in the rods.
And he set the rods which he had pilled before the flocks in the
gutters
in the watering troughs when the flocks came to drink, that they
should conceive when they came to drink.
And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth
cattle
ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.
Good example, except there is nothing in these passages nor the entire
book of Genesis to indicate that an animal's looking upon the rods
caused a biological change.
So that last verse just mentions two events that have nothing to do with
each other?
Reading the surrounding passages,
studying Hebrew | | | |