| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"johac" |
| Date: |
26 May 2007 02:38:34 AM |
| Object: |
Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
Picture at site (but doesn't show too much.)
---
Possible Aztec Offerings Found in Mexico
May 25, 7:47 PM (ET)
By MARK STEVENSON
MEXICO CITY (AP) - Archaeologists diving into a lake in the crater of a
snowcapped volcano found wooden scepters shaped like lightning bolts
that match 500-year-old descriptions by Spanish priests and conquerors
writing about offerings to the Aztec rain god.
The lightning bolts - along with cones of copal incense and obsidian
knives - were found during scuba-diving expeditions in one of the twin
lakes of the extinct Nevado de Toluca volcano, at more than 13,800 feet
above sea level.
Scientists must still conduct tests to determine the age of the
findings, but the writings after the Spanish conquest in 1521 have led
them to believe the offerings were left in the frigid lake west of
Mexico City more than 500 years ago.
Lightning bolt scepters "were used by Aztec priests when they were doing
rites associated with the god Tlaloc," said Johan Reinhard, an
anthropologist and explorer-in-residence for National Geographic Society
who took part in more dives Thursday at the Lake of the Moon. "We think
it is pretty clear that the Aztecs considered this one of the more
important places of Tlaloc."
The research, which also involves the volcano's Lake of the Sun, is
being led by Mexico's National Institute of Anthropology and History.
Stanislaw Iwaniszewski, an archaeology professor at the institute, said
Aztec iconography often associates Tlaloc with lightning bolts.
"They were left in the lake to bring rain storms," Iwaniszewski said.
Copal incense was burned to form "clouds," and sharp spines from the
maguey cactus - which does not grow at that altitude - indicated
worshippers brought them there to draw blood from themselves as part of
the sacrifice.
Luis Alberto Martos, the institute's director of archaeological studies,
said other artifacts found in the clear 32-degree waters of the lake
indicate the ritual may have started about 100 B.C. - long before the
Aztecas settled in the area in 1325.
---
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070525/D8PBNBJO0.html
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
26 May 2007 03:28:46 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 26 May 2007 00:38:34 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-88EB8F.00383426052007@news.giganews.com>
Picture at site (but doesn't show too much.)
---
Possible Aztec Offerings Found in Mexico
May 25, 7:47 PM (ET)
By MARK STEVENSON
MEXICO CITY (AP) - Archaeologists diving into a lake in the crater of a
snowcapped volcano found wooden scepters shaped like lightning bolts
that match 500-year-old descriptions by Spanish priests and conquerors
writing about offerings to the Aztec rain god.
The lightning bolts - along with cones of copal incense and obsidian
knives - were found during scuba-diving expeditions in one of the twin
lakes of the extinct Nevado de Toluca volcano, at more than 13,800 feet
above sea level.
Scientists must still conduct tests to determine the age of the
findings, but the writings after the Spanish conquest in 1521 have led
them to believe the offerings were left in the frigid lake west of
Mexico City more than 500 years ago.
Lightning bolt scepters "were used by Aztec priests when they were doing
rites associated with the god Tlaloc," said Johan Reinhard, an
anthropologist and explorer-in-residence for National Geographic Society
who took part in more dives Thursday at the Lake of the Moon. "We think
it is pretty clear that the Aztecs considered this one of the more
important places of Tlaloc."
The research, which also involves the volcano's Lake of the Sun, is
being led by Mexico's National Institute of Anthropology and History.
Stanislaw Iwaniszewski, an archaeology professor at the institute, said
Aztec iconography often associates Tlaloc with lightning bolts.
"They were left in the lake to bring rain storms," Iwaniszewski said.
Copal incense was burned to form "clouds," and sharp spines from the
maguey cactus - which does not grow at that altitude - indicated
worshippers brought them there to draw blood from themselves as part of
the sacrifice.
Luis Alberto Martos, the institute's director of archaeological studies,
said other artifacts found in the clear 32-degree waters of the lake
indicate the ritual may have started about 100 B.C. - long before the
Aztecas settled in the area in 1325.
---
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070525/D8PBNBJO0.html
Bleedin' 'eck mate!
If you can distinguish "Lightning Bolts" in that wodge of waterlogged
wood, that sack of sodden splinters, then good luck to you.
(And the obvious fact that you have never ever seen real lightning.)
Dracula Stakes, maybe.
Lightning Bolts? No way!
Where is the original Spanish text that these 500 year old priests are
supposed to have vouchsafed?
(In case you had not guessed, I am a tad sceptical of the claims.)
I even notice that the only quote from the Spanish priests does NOT
contain the phrases "lightning bolts", nor "sceptres",
but only "were used by Aztec priests when they were doing rites
associated with the god Tlaloc"
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
--
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
26 May 2007 08:31:21 AM |
|
|
on 5/26/2007, Michael Gray avouched :
On Sat, 26 May 2007 00:38:34 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-88EB8F.00383426052007@news.giganews.com>
Picture at site (but doesn't show too much.)
---
Possible Aztec Offerings Found in Mexico
May 25, 7:47 PM (ET)
By MARK STEVENSON
MEXICO CITY (AP) - Archaeologists diving into a lake in the crater of a
snowcapped volcano found wooden scepters shaped like lightning bolts
that match 500-year-old descriptions by Spanish priests and conquerors
writing about offerings to the Aztec rain god.
The lightning bolts - along with cones of copal incense and obsidian
knives - were found during scuba-diving expeditions in one of the twin
lakes of the extinct Nevado de Toluca volcano, at more than 13,800 feet
above sea level.
Scientists must still conduct tests to determine the age of the
findings, but the writings after the Spanish conquest in 1521 have led
them to believe the offerings were left in the frigid lake west of
Mexico City more than 500 years ago.
Lightning bolt scepters "were used by Aztec priests when they were doing
rites associated with the god Tlaloc," said Johan Reinhard, an
anthropologist and explorer-in-residence for National Geographic Society
who took part in more dives Thursday at the Lake of the Moon. "We think
it is pretty clear that the Aztecs considered this one of the more
important places of Tlaloc."
The research, which also involves the volcano's Lake of the Sun, is
being led by Mexico's National Institute of Anthropology and History.
Stanislaw Iwaniszewski, an archaeology professor at the institute, said
Aztec iconography often associates Tlaloc with lightning bolts.
"They were left in the lake to bring rain storms," Iwaniszewski said.
Copal incense was burned to form "clouds," and sharp spines from the
maguey cactus - which does not grow at that altitude - indicated
worshippers brought them there to draw blood from themselves as part of
the sacrifice.
Luis Alberto Martos, the institute's director of archaeological studies,
said other artifacts found in the clear 32-degree waters of the lake
indicate the ritual may have started about 100 B.C. - long before the
Aztecas settled in the area in 1325.
---
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070525/D8PBNBJO0.html
Bleedin' 'eck mate!
If you can distinguish "Lightning Bolts" in that wodge of waterlogged
wood, that sack of sodden splinters, then good luck to you.
(And the obvious fact that you have never ever seen real lightning.)
Dracula Stakes, maybe.
Lightning Bolts? No way!
Where is the original Spanish text that these 500 year old priests are
supposed to have vouchsafed?
(In case you had not guessed, I am a tad sceptical of the claims.)
I even notice that the only quote from the Spanish priests does NOT
contain the phrases "lightning bolts", nor "sceptres",
but only "were used by Aztec priests when they were doing rites
associated with the god Tlaloc"
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
www.famsi.org/.../images/aztec2figure03a.jpg
Pang
--
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam.
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
26 May 2007 07:11:37 PM |
|
|
In article <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
on 5/26/2007, Michael Gray avouched :
On Sat, 26 May 2007 00:38:34 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-88EB8F.00383426052007@news.giganews.com>
Picture at site (but doesn't show too much.)
---
Possible Aztec Offerings Found in Mexico
May 25, 7:47 PM (ET)
By MARK STEVENSON
MEXICO CITY (AP) - Archaeologists diving into a lake in the crater of a
snowcapped volcano found wooden scepters shaped like lightning bolts
that match 500-year-old descriptions by Spanish priests and conquerors
writing about offerings to the Aztec rain god.
The lightning bolts - along with cones of copal incense and obsidian
knives - were found during scuba-diving expeditions in one of the twin
lakes of the extinct Nevado de Toluca volcano, at more than 13,800 feet
above sea level.
Scientists must still conduct tests to determine the age of the
findings, but the writings after the Spanish conquest in 1521 have led
them to believe the offerings were left in the frigid lake west of
Mexico City more than 500 years ago.
Lightning bolt scepters "were used by Aztec priests when they were doing
rites associated with the god Tlaloc," said Johan Reinhard, an
anthropologist and explorer-in-residence for National Geographic Society
who took part in more dives Thursday at the Lake of the Moon. "We think
it is pretty clear that the Aztecs considered this one of the more
important places of Tlaloc."
The research, which also involves the volcano's Lake of the Sun, is
being led by Mexico's National Institute of Anthropology and History.
Stanislaw Iwaniszewski, an archaeology professor at the institute, said
Aztec iconography often associates Tlaloc with lightning bolts.
"They were left in the lake to bring rain storms," Iwaniszewski said.
Copal incense was burned to form "clouds," and sharp spines from the
maguey cactus - which does not grow at that altitude - indicated
worshippers brought them there to draw blood from themselves as part of
the sacrifice.
Luis Alberto Martos, the institute's director of archaeological studies,
said other artifacts found in the clear 32-degree waters of the lake
indicate the ritual may have started about 100 B.C. - long before the
Aztecas settled in the area in 1325.
---
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070525/D8PBNBJO0.html
Bleedin' 'eck mate!
If you can distinguish "Lightning Bolts" in that wodge of waterlogged
wood, that sack of sodden splinters, then good luck to you.
(And the obvious fact that you have never ever seen real lightning.)
As I said, it's not a clear picture.
Dracula Stakes, maybe.
Lightning Bolts? No way!
Where is the original Spanish text that these 500 year old priests are
supposed to have vouchsafed?
(In case you had not guessed, I am a tad sceptical of the claims.)
I even notice that the only quote from the Spanish priests does NOT
contain the phrases "lightning bolts", nor "sceptres",
but only "were used by Aztec priests when they were doing rites
associated with the god Tlaloc"
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
www.famsi.org/.../images/aztec2figure03a.jpg
There is a report by the Spanish priests, but unfortunately it's in Rome:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Rios
I don't know about translations. Note the picture on the left. The god
is shown holding something which might be the artist's conception of a
lightning bolt.
More on Tlaloc:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlaloc
Pang
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
26 May 2007 07:31:39 PM |
|
|
johac wrote :
In article <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
on 5/26/2007, Michael Gray avouched :
On Sat, 26 May 2007 00:38:34 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-88EB8F.00383426052007@news.giganews.com>
Picture at site (but doesn't show too much.)
---
Possible Aztec Offerings Found in Mexico
May 25, 7:47 PM (ET)
By MARK STEVENSON
MEXICO CITY (AP) - Archaeologists diving into a lake in the crater of a
snowcapped volcano found wooden scepters shaped like lightning bolts
that match 500-year-old descriptions by Spanish priests and conquerors
writing about offerings to the Aztec rain god.
The lightning bolts - along with cones of copal incense and obsidian
knives - were found during scuba-diving expeditions in one of the twin
lakes of the extinct Nevado de Toluca volcano, at more than 13,800 feet
above sea level.
Scientists must still conduct tests to determine the age of the
findings, but the writings after the Spanish conquest in 1521 have led
them to believe the offerings were left in the frigid lake west of
Mexico City more than 500 years ago.
Lightning bolt scepters "were used by Aztec priests when they were doing
rites associated with the god Tlaloc," said Johan Reinhard, an
anthropologist and explorer-in-residence for National Geographic Society
who took part in more dives Thursday at the Lake of the Moon. "We think
it is pretty clear that the Aztecs considered this one of the more
important places of Tlaloc."
The research, which also involves the volcano's Lake of the Sun, is
being led by Mexico's National Institute of Anthropology and History.
Stanislaw Iwaniszewski, an archaeology professor at the institute, said
Aztec iconography often associates Tlaloc with lightning bolts.
"They were left in the lake to bring rain storms," Iwaniszewski said.
Copal incense was burned to form "clouds," and sharp spines from the
maguey cactus - which does not grow at that altitude - indicated
worshippers brought them there to draw blood from themselves as part of
the sacrifice.
Luis Alberto Martos, the institute's director of archaeological studies,
said other artifacts found in the clear 32-degree waters of the lake
indicate the ritual may have started about 100 B.C. - long before the
Aztecas settled in the area in 1325.
---
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070525/D8PBNBJO0.html
Bleedin' 'eck mate!
If you can distinguish "Lightning Bolts" in that wodge of waterlogged
wood, that sack of sodden splinters, then good luck to you.
(And the obvious fact that you have never ever seen real lightning.)
As I said, it's not a clear picture.
Dracula Stakes, maybe.
Lightning Bolts? No way!
Where is the original Spanish text that these 500 year old priests are
supposed to have vouchsafed?
(In case you had not guessed, I am a tad sceptical of the claims.)
I even notice that the only quote from the Spanish priests does NOT
contain the phrases "lightning bolts", nor "sceptres",
but only "were used by Aztec priests when they were doing rites
associated with the god Tlaloc"
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
www.famsi.org/.../images/aztec2figure03a.jpg
There is a report by the Spanish priests, but unfortunately it's in Rome:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Rios
I don't know about translations. Note the picture on the left. The god
is shown holding something which might be the artist's conception of a
lightning bolt.
More on Tlaloc:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlaloc
Pang
I had fun checking the google images for the thunderbolts... did some
reading on the Aztec gods/goddesses while I was doing so. That stone
image of Tlaloc is scary!! Wish Walksalone's god/goddess reports could
be made with images...
I hadn't realized till just now how much I like images with some of the
things I read... hrmmmm... when I read fiction I create my own images -
but most of what I read here, I want images..... non-fiction vs
fiction.
Pang - whose mind wandered off a bit in the last paragraph lol
--
Tamdiu discendum est, quamdiu vivas.
Seneca
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
26 May 2007 08:20:56 PM |
|
|
In <mn.d4577d75beeb99cf.73271@att.net>, on 05/26/07
at 06:31 PM, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> said:
johac wrote :
In article <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
on 5/26/2007, Michael Gray avouched :
On Sat, 26 May 2007 00:38:34 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-88EB8F.00383426052007@news.giganews.com>
Picture at site (but doesn't show too much.)
---
Possible Aztec Offerings Found in Mexico
May 25, 7:47 PM (ET)
By MARK STEVENSON
snip
I had fun checking the google images for the thunderbolts... did some
reading on the Aztec gods/goddesses while I was doing so. That stone
image of Tlaloc is scary!! Wish Walksalone's god/goddess reports could
be made with images...
It could be done, I won't do it here. You see, it is considered rude to
do so, that is, the posting of a graphic binary file cuts into bandwidth
& storage on the servers. With good reason most news providers say no to
that as a regular thing. Can you imagine the spam if they were allowed
to show pretty pictures with it. Not to mention, in some of Europe &
IIRC, Great Britain, whether you download the binary or not, you get
charged for it. You pay for everything that is on that server, & that
could hurt big time.
Now, IIRC, you made the lament that you were running out of reading
material. I need you to send a post to me. so we can be sure the servers
talk with each other. Then I can send you some books, some even have
pictures. PDF format, especially image only PDF format, is currently
immune to virus attack & can't be made a carrier very easily.
RTF can be hijacked, but when sent as a compressed file, normally has no
problems with a virus catching a ride.
I hadn't realized till just now how much I like images with some of the
things I read... hrmmmm... when I read fiction I create my own images
I can't imagine Playboy without them.
- but most of what I read here, I want images..... non-fiction vs
fiction.
Pang - whose mind wandered off a bit in the last paragraph lol
You say that as if its a bad thing. Sometimes my mind wanders so far
afield, that it stays gone for the season.
walksalone who remembers when sex was safe & motorcycles weren't. Now
that is telling on oneself. I also remember Death Valley as a trickle on
the face of a rock, & the dead sea before it was sick.
Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are
hatched. Guy de Maupassant, short story writer and novelist
(1850-1893)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
28 May 2007 07:49:12 AM |
|
|
used the keyboard to articulate :
In <mn.d4577d75beeb99cf.73271@att.net>, on 05/26/07
at 06:31 PM, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> said:
johac wrote :
In article <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
on 5/26/2007, Michael Gray avouched :
On Sat, 26 May 2007 00:38:34 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-88EB8F.00383426052007@news.giganews.com>
Picture at site (but doesn't show too much.)
---
Possible Aztec Offerings Found in Mexico
May 25, 7:47 PM (ET)
By MARK STEVENSON
snip
I had fun checking the google images for the thunderbolts... did some
reading on the Aztec gods/goddesses while I was doing so. That stone
image of Tlaloc is scary!! Wish Walksalone's god/goddess reports could
be made with images...
It could be done, I won't do it here. You see, it is considered rude to
do so, that is, the posting of a graphic binary file cuts into bandwidth
& storage on the servers. With good reason most news providers say no to
that as a regular thing. Can you imagine the spam if they were allowed
to show pretty pictures with it. Not to mention, in some of Europe &
IIRC, Great Britain, whether you download the binary or not, you get
charged for it. You pay for everything that is on that server, & that
could hurt big time.
When setting up my subscribed newsgroup list, I saw all the binaries
and figured out that they were for posting images. Also one of the
"bird" groups to which I belong does not allow images... I knew they
were not for here - it was just a "wished-for".
Now, IIRC, you made the lament that you were running out of reading
material. I need you to send a post to me. so we can be sure the servers
talk with each other. Then I can send you some books, some even have
pictures. PDF format, especially image only PDF format, is currently
immune to virus attack & can't be made a carrier very easily.
Whoooosh! Over my head again. PDF? Is that Adobe?
RTF can be hijacked, but when sent as a compressed file, normally has no
problems with a virus catching a ride.
RTF .... "rich" text.
Virus - I use Norton, update checks daily, email is checked going out
and coming in... system scan daily too.
I hadn't realized till just now how much I like images with some of the
things I read... hrmmmm... when I read fiction I create my own images
I can't imagine Playboy without them.
LOL
- but most of what I read here, I want images..... non-fiction vs
fiction.
Pang - whose mind wandered off a bit in the last paragraph lol
You say that as if its a bad thing. Sometimes my mind wanders so far
afield, that it stays gone for the season.
No, not meant as a bad thing...just an observation. "Don't fence me
(mind) in".....
walksalone who remembers when sex was safe & motorcycles weren't. Now
that is telling on oneself. I also remember Death Valley as a trickle on
the face of a rock, & the dead sea before it was sick.
:D
Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are
hatched. Guy de Maupassant, short story writer and novelist
(1850-1893)
--
Quam bene vivas refert, non quam diu.
Seneca
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
28 May 2007 08:41:50 AM |
|
|
In <mn.e1997d756a232f1e.73271@att.net>, on 05/28/07
at 06:49 AM, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> said:
walksalone@the.ritz used the keyboard to articulate :
In <mn.d4577d75beeb99cf.73271@att.net>, on 05/26/07
at 06:31 PM, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> said:
johac wrote :
In article <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
on 5/26/2007, Michael Gray avouched :
On Sat, 26 May 2007 00:38:34 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-88EB8F.00383426052007@news.giganews.com>
snip
It could be done, I won't do it here. You see, it is considered rude to
do so, that is, the posting of a graphic binary file cuts into bandwidth
& storage on the servers.
snip
When setting up my subscribed newsgroup list, I saw all the binaries
and figured out that they were for posting images. Also one of the
"bird" groups to which I belong does not allow images... I knew they
were not for here - it was just a "wished-for".
Your wish has been addressed IIRC.
Now, IIRC, you made the lament that you were running out of reading
material. I need you to send a post to me. so we can be sure the servers
talk with each other. Then I can send you some books, some even have
pictures. PDF format, especially image only PDF format, is currently
immune to virus attack & can't be made a carrier very easily.
Whoooosh! Over my head again. PDF? Is that Adobe?
Yes
RTF can be hijacked, but when sent as a compressed file, normally has no
problems with a virus catching a ride.
RTF .... "rich" text.
Yes
Virus - I use Norton, update checks daily, email is checked going out
and coming in... system scan daily too.
I don't, it spins the disk to often, & don't know about now, but it used
to eat up disk space with those *.nav files it generated.
I hadn't realized till just now how much I like images with some of the
things I read... hrmmmm... when I read fiction I create my own images
I can't imagine Playboy without them.
LOL
Can you?
- but most of what I read here, I want images..... non-fiction vs
fiction.
Pang - whose mind wandered off a bit in the last paragraph lol
You say that as if its a bad thing. Sometimes my mind wanders so far
afield, that it stays gone for the season.
No, not meant as a bad thing...just an observation. "Don't fence me
(mind) in".....
In my case, can't be done, no mind left after the girls got done with
it, not that I'm complaining mind you, well I could complain but I
won't. Haven't felt sorry for myself since, quite some time ago.
But let me know if you would like some reading material, dry as dust,
but verified, or Rex Stout & Science Fiction. Or medical [diabetes], or
just about any topic short of erotica or porn.
walksalone who does not make offers he can not or will not back.
The most dangerous of all falsehoods is a slightly distorted truth.
-G.C. Lichtenberg (1742-1799)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
30 May 2007 09:36:21 AM |
|
|
uncoiled the following on Monday :
In <mn.e1997d756a232f1e.73271@att.net>, on 05/28/07
at 06:49 AM, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> said:
used the keyboard to articulate :
In <mn.d4577d75beeb99cf.73271@att.net>, on 05/26/07
at 06:31 PM, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> said:
johac wrote :
In article <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
on 5/26/2007, Michael Gray avouched :
On Sat, 26 May 2007 00:38:34 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-88EB8F.00383426052007@news.giganews.com>
snip
It could be done, I won't do it here. You see, it is considered rude to
do so, that is, the posting of a graphic binary file cuts into bandwidth
& storage on the servers.
snip
When setting up my subscribed newsgroup list, I saw all the binaries
and figured out that they were for posting images. Also one of the
"bird" groups to which I belong does not allow images... I knew they
were not for here - it was just a "wished-for".
Your wish has been addressed IIRC.
Now, IIRC, you made the lament that you were running out of reading
material. I need you to send a post to me. so we can be sure the servers
talk with each other. Then I can send you some books, some even have
pictures. PDF format, especially image only PDF format, is currently
immune to virus attack & can't be made a carrier very easily.
Whoooosh! Over my head again. PDF? Is that Adobe?
Yes
RTF can be hijacked, but when sent as a compressed file, normally has no
problems with a virus catching a ride.
RTF .... "rich" text.
Yes
Virus - I use Norton, update checks daily, email is checked going out
and coming in... system scan daily too.
I don't, it spins the disk to often, & don't know about now, but it used
to eat up disk space with those *.nav files it generated.
I just checked my disk usage - 9.81 gigabytes used of 176 gigabytes.
Doesn't that mean I can "afford" the *.nav files?
I hadn't realized till just now how much I like images with some of the
things I read... hrmmmm... when I read fiction I create my own images
I can't imagine Playboy without them.
LOL
Can you?
Yes, I can imagine Playboy without the images; I just read some of the
articles (even used one of the interview articles in a paper I wrote
for one of my college classes).
- but most of what I read here, I want images..... non-fiction vs
fiction.
Pang - whose mind wandered off a bit in the last paragraph lol
You say that as if its a bad thing. Sometimes my mind wanders so far
afield, that it stays gone for the season.
No, not meant as a bad thing...just an observation. "Don't fence me
(mind) in".....
In my case, can't be done, no mind left after the girls got done with
it, not that I'm complaining mind you, well I could complain but I
won't. Haven't felt sorry for myself since, quite some time ago.
Having children does affect the mind - if one is a good parent, imho.
Durn, I miss those parenting classes I taught. *sigh* Maybe I should
investigate teaching ....naw, I am not ready to do that yet.
But let me know if you would like some reading material, dry as dust,
but verified, or Rex Stout & Science Fiction. Or medical [diabetes], or
just about any topic short of erotica or porn.
I don't read porn or erotica anyway - and will read just about anything
but westerns and romance novels. I have been known to read cereal
boxes in the AM if no other reading material was handy - but now I have
this ng - a BIG step up usually from cereal box reading. :-)
walksalone who does not make offers he can not or will not back.
I *think* I know how to email you .... am going to try after my second
dose of morning caffeine.
Pang - avid sci-fi reader; avid history reader (especially Roman and
British); avid dino reader; interested in crime (fiction and non),
volcanos, archeology (almost any area of the world)...frankly, almost
any topic if the book is well written.
The most dangerous of all falsehoods is a slightly distorted truth.
-G.C. Lichtenberg (1742-1799)
--
Tamdiu discendum est, quamdiu vivas.
Seneca
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
27 May 2007 01:27:59 AM |
|
|
In article <mn.d4577d75beeb99cf.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
johac wrote :
In article <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
on 5/26/2007, Michael Gray avouched :
On Sat, 26 May 2007 00:38:34 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-88EB8F.00383426052007@news.giganews.com>
Picture at site (but doesn't show too much.)
---
Possible Aztec Offerings Found in Mexico
May 25, 7:47 PM (ET)
By MARK STEVENSON
MEXICO CITY (AP) - Archaeologists diving into a lake in the crater of a
snowcapped volcano found wooden scepters shaped like lightning bolts
that match 500-year-old descriptions by Spanish priests and conquerors
writing about offerings to the Aztec rain god.
The lightning bolts - along with cones of copal incense and obsidian
knives - were found during scuba-diving expeditions in one of the twin
lakes of the extinct Nevado de Toluca volcano, at more than 13,800 feet
above sea level.
Scientists must still conduct tests to determine the age of the
findings, but the writings after the Spanish conquest in 1521 have led
them to believe the offerings were left in the frigid lake west of
Mexico City more than 500 years ago.
Lightning bolt scepters "were used by Aztec priests when they were doing
rites associated with the god Tlaloc," said Johan Reinhard, an
anthropologist and explorer-in-residence for National Geographic Society
who took part in more dives Thursday at the Lake of the Moon. "We think
it is pretty clear that the Aztecs considered this one of the more
important places of Tlaloc."
The research, which also involves the volcano's Lake of the Sun, is
being led by Mexico's National Institute of Anthropology and History.
Stanislaw Iwaniszewski, an archaeology professor at the institute, said
Aztec iconography often associates Tlaloc with lightning bolts.
"They were left in the lake to bring rain storms," Iwaniszewski said.
Copal incense was burned to form "clouds," and sharp spines from the
maguey cactus - which does not grow at that altitude - indicated
worshippers brought them there to draw blood from themselves as part of
the sacrifice.
Luis Alberto Martos, the institute's director of archaeological studies,
said other artifacts found in the clear 32-degree waters of the lake
indicate the ritual may have started about 100 B.C. - long before the
Aztecas settled in the area in 1325.
---
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070525/D8PBNBJO0.html
Bleedin' 'eck mate!
If you can distinguish "Lightning Bolts" in that wodge of waterlogged
wood, that sack of sodden splinters, then good luck to you.
(And the obvious fact that you have never ever seen real lightning.)
As I said, it's not a clear picture.
Dracula Stakes, maybe.
Lightning Bolts? No way!
Where is the original Spanish text that these 500 year old priests are
supposed to have vouchsafed?
(In case you had not guessed, I am a tad sceptical of the claims.)
I even notice that the only quote from the Spanish priests does NOT
contain the phrases "lightning bolts", nor "sceptres",
but only "were used by Aztec priests when they were doing rites
associated with the god Tlaloc"
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
www.famsi.org/.../images/aztec2figure03a.jpg
There is a report by the Spanish priests, but unfortunately it's in Rome:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Rios
I don't know about translations. Note the picture on the left. The god
is shown holding something which might be the artist's conception of a
lightning bolt.
More on Tlaloc:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlaloc
Pang
I had fun checking the google images for the thunderbolts... did some
reading on the Aztec gods/goddesses while I was doing so. That stone
image of Tlaloc is scary!! Wish Walksalone's god/goddess reports could
be made with images...
I like Mesoamerican art. I find some of the images fascinating. These
people had imagination. Too bad the European invaders destroyed so many
artifacts.
I hadn't realized till just now how much I like images with some of the
things I read... hrmmmm... when I read fiction I create my own images -
but most of what I read here, I want images..... non-fiction vs
fiction.
Yes. Sometimes the old saying: "A picture is worth a thousand words" is
true.
Pang - whose mind wandered off a bit in the last paragraph lol
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
28 May 2007 07:52:18 AM |
|
|
johac presented the following :
In article <mn.d4577d75beeb99cf.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
johac wrote :
In article <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
on 5/26/2007, Michael Gray avouched :
On Sat, 26 May 2007 00:38:34 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-88EB8F.00383426052007@news.giganews.com>
Picture at site (but doesn't show too much.)
---
Possible Aztec Offerings Found in Mexico
May 25, 7:47 PM (ET)
By MARK STEVENSON
MEXICO CITY (AP) - Archaeologists diving into a lake in the crater of a
snowcapped volcano found wooden scepters shaped like lightning bolts
that match 500-year-old descriptions by Spanish priests and conquerors
writing about offerings to the Aztec rain god.
The lightning bolts - along with cones of copal incense and obsidian
knives - were found during scuba-diving expeditions in one of the twin
lakes of the extinct Nevado de Toluca volcano, at more than 13,800 feet
above sea level.
Scientists must still conduct tests to determine the age of the
findings, but the writings after the Spanish conquest in 1521 have led
them to believe the offerings were left in the frigid lake west of
Mexico City more than 500 years ago.
Lightning bolt scepters "were used by Aztec priests when they were doing
rites associated with the god Tlaloc," said Johan Reinhard, an
anthropologist and explorer-in-residence for National Geographic Society
who took part in more dives Thursday at the Lake of the Moon. "We think
it is pretty clear that the Aztecs considered this one of the more
important places of Tlaloc."
The research, which also involves the volcano's Lake of the Sun, is
being led by Mexico's National Institute of Anthropology and History.
Stanislaw Iwaniszewski, an archaeology professor at the institute, said
Aztec iconography often associates Tlaloc with lightning bolts.
"They were left in the lake to bring rain storms," Iwaniszewski said.
Copal incense was burned to form "clouds," and sharp spines from the
maguey cactus - which does not grow at that altitude - indicated
worshippers brought them there to draw blood from themselves as part of
the sacrifice.
Luis Alberto Martos, the institute's director of archaeological studies,
said other artifacts found in the clear 32-degree waters of the lake
indicate the ritual may have started about 100 B.C. - long before the
Aztecas settled in the area in 1325.
---
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070525/D8PBNBJO0.html
Bleedin' 'eck mate!
If you can distinguish "Lightning Bolts" in that wodge of waterlogged
wood, that sack of sodden splinters, then good luck to you.
(And the obvious fact that you have never ever seen real lightning.) As
I said, it's not a clear picture. Dracula Stakes, maybe.
Lightning Bolts? No way!
Where is the original Spanish text that these 500 year old priests are
supposed to have vouchsafed?
(In case you had not guessed, I am a tad sceptical of the claims.)
I even notice that the only quote from the Spanish priests does NOT
contain the phrases "lightning bolts", nor "sceptres",
but only "were used by Aztec priests when they were doing rites
associated with the god Tlaloc"
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
www.famsi.org/.../images/aztec2figure03a.jpg
There is a report by the Spanish priests, but unfortunately it's in Rome:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Rios
I don't know about translations. Note the picture on the left. The god
is shown holding something which might be the artist's conception of a
lightning bolt.
More on Tlaloc:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlaloc
Pang
I had fun checking the google images for the thunderbolts... did some
reading on the Aztec gods/goddesses while I was doing so. That stone
image of Tlaloc is scary!! Wish Walksalone's god/goddess reports could
be made with images...
I like Mesoamerican art. I find some of the images fascinating. These
people had imagination. Too bad the European invaders destroyed so many
artifacts.
Criminal!!!!!!!
I hadn't realized till just now how much I like images with some of the
things I read... hrmmmm... when I read fiction I create my own images -
but most of what I read here, I want images..... non-fiction vs
fiction.
Yes. Sometimes the old saying: "A picture is worth a thousand words" is
true.
I know the mind has a tendency to see human/animal shapes where they
don't exist..... but did I see a "face" in the materials in the bin? I
copied the image and did some manipulation ... but couldn't make up my
mind one way or t'other. Lower right corner, I think.
Pang - whose mind wandered off a bit in the last paragraph lol
--
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam.
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
29 May 2007 01:40:53 AM |
|
|
In article <mn.e19c7d7531dd48ef.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
johac presented the following :
In article <mn.d4577d75beeb99cf.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
johac wrote :
In article <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
on 5/26/2007, Michael Gray avouched :
On Sat, 26 May 2007 00:38:34 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-88EB8F.00383426052007@news.giganews.com>
Picture at site (but doesn't show too much.)
---
Possible Aztec Offerings Found in Mexico
May 25, 7:47 PM (ET)
By MARK STEVENSON
MEXICO CITY (AP) - Archaeologists diving into a lake in the crater of
a
snowcapped volcano found wooden scepters shaped like lightning bolts
that match 500-year-old descriptions by Spanish priests and conquerors
writing about offerings to the Aztec rain god.
The lightning bolts - along with cones of copal incense and obsidian
knives - were found during scuba-diving expeditions in one of the twin
lakes of the extinct Nevado de Toluca volcano, at more than 13,800
feet
above sea level.
Scientists must still conduct tests to determine the age of the
findings, but the writings after the Spanish conquest in 1521 have led
them to believe the offerings were left in the frigid lake west of
Mexico City more than 500 years ago.
Lightning bolt scepters "were used by Aztec priests when they were
doing
rites associated with the god Tlaloc," said Johan Reinhard, an
anthropologist and explorer-in-residence for National Geographic
Society
who took part in more dives Thursday at the Lake of the Moon. "We
think
it is pretty clear that the Aztecs considered this one of the more
important places of Tlaloc."
The research, which also involves the volcano's Lake of the Sun, is
being led by Mexico's National Institute of Anthropology and History.
Stanislaw Iwaniszewski, an archaeology professor at the institute,
said
Aztec iconography often associates Tlaloc with lightning bolts.
"They were left in the lake to bring rain storms," Iwaniszewski said.
Copal incense was burned to form "clouds," and sharp spines from the
maguey cactus - which does not grow at that altitude - indicated
worshippers brought them there to draw blood from themselves as part
of
the sacrifice.
Luis Alberto Martos, the institute's director of archaeological
studies,
said other artifacts found in the clear 32-degree waters of the lake
indicate the ritual may have started about 100 B.C. - long before the
Aztecas settled in the area in 1325.
---
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070525/D8PBNBJO0.html
Bleedin' 'eck mate!
If you can distinguish "Lightning Bolts" in that wodge of waterlogged
wood, that sack of sodden splinters, then good luck to you.
(And the obvious fact that you have never ever seen real lightning.)
As
I said, it's not a clear picture. Dracula Stakes, maybe.
Lightning Bolts? No way!
Where is the original Spanish text that these 500 year old priests are
supposed to have vouchsafed?
(In case you had not guessed, I am a tad sceptical of the claims.)
I even notice that the only quote from the Spanish priests does NOT
contain the phrases "lightning bolts", nor "sceptres",
but only "were used by Aztec priests when they were doing rites
associated with the god Tlaloc"
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
www.famsi.org/.../images/aztec2figure03a.jpg
There is a report by the Spanish priests, but unfortunately it's in Rome:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Rios
I don't know about translations. Note the picture on the left. The god
is shown holding something which might be the artist's conception of a
lightning bolt.
More on Tlaloc:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlaloc
Pang
I had fun checking the google images for the thunderbolts... did some
reading on the Aztec gods/goddesses while I was doing so. That stone
image of Tlaloc is scary!! Wish Walksalone's god/goddess reports could
be made with images...
I like Mesoamerican art. I find some of the images fascinating. These
people had imagination. Too bad the European invaders destroyed so many
artifacts.
Criminal!!!!!!!
Indeed.
I hadn't realized till just now how much I like images with some of the
things I read... hrmmmm... when I read fiction I create my own images -
but most of what I read here, I want images..... non-fiction vs
fiction.
Yes. Sometimes the old saying: "A picture is worth a thousand words" is
true.
I know the mind has a tendency to see human/animal shapes where they
don't exist..... but did I see a "face" in the materials in the bin? I
copied the image and did some manipulation ... but couldn't make up my
mind one way or t'other. Lower right corner, I think.
Lower right? I thought I saw one in the lower left. Wait! It looks like
there might be a smaller one in the lower right too.
I wish there were better pictures.
Pang - whose mind wandered off a bit in the last paragraph lol
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
29 May 2007 08:47:04 AM |
|
|
Carefully enucleating johac wrote :
In article <mn.e19c7d7531dd48ef.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
johac presented the following :
In article <mn.d4577d75beeb99cf.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
johac wrote :
In article <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
on 5/26/2007, Michael Gray avouched :
On Sat, 26 May 2007 00:38:34 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-88EB8F.00383426052007@news.giganews.com>
Picture at site (but doesn't show too much.)
---
Possible Aztec Offerings Found in Mexico
May 25, 7:47 PM (ET)
By MARK STEVENSON
MEXICO CITY (AP) - Archaeologists diving into a lake in the crater of
a
snowcapped volcano found wooden scepters shaped like lightning bolts
that match 500-year-old descriptions by Spanish priests and conquerors
writing about offerings to the Aztec rain god.
The lightning bolts - along with cones of copal incense and obsidian
knives - were found during scuba-diving expeditions in one of the twin
lakes of the extinct Nevado de Toluca volcano, at more than 13,800
feet
above sea level.
Scientists must still conduct tests to determine the age of the
findings, but the writings after the Spanish conquest in 1521 have led
them to believe the offerings were left in the frigid lake west of
Mexico City more than 500 years ago.
Lightning bolt scepters "were used by Aztec priests when they were
doing
rites associated with the god Tlaloc," said Johan Reinhard, an
anthropologist and explorer-in-residence for National Geographic
Society
who took part in more dives Thursday at the Lake of the Moon. "We
think
it is pretty clear that the Aztecs considered this one of the more
important places of Tlaloc."
The research, which also involves the volcano's Lake of the Sun, is
being led by Mexico's National Institute of Anthropology and History.
Stanislaw Iwaniszewski, an archaeology professor at the institute,
said
Aztec iconography often associates Tlaloc with lightning bolts.
"They were left in the lake to bring rain storms," Iwaniszewski said.
Copal incense was burned to form "clouds," and sharp spines from the
maguey cactus - which does not grow at that altitude - indicated
worshippers brought them there to draw blood from themselves as part
of
the sacrifice.
Luis Alberto Martos, the institute's director of archaeological
studies,
said other artifacts found in the clear 32-degree waters of the lake
indicate the ritual may have started about 100 B.C. - long before the
Aztecas settled in the area in 1325.
---
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070525/D8PBNBJO0.html
Bleedin' 'eck mate!
If you can distinguish "Lightning Bolts" in that wodge of waterlogged
wood, that sack of sodden splinters, then good luck to you.
(And the obvious fact that you have never ever seen real lightning.)
As
I said, it's not a clear picture. Dracula Stakes, maybe.
Lightning Bolts? No way!
Where is the original Spanish text that these 500 year old priests are
supposed to have vouchsafed?
(In case you had not guessed, I am a tad sceptical of the claims.)
I even notice that the only quote from the Spanish priests does NOT
contain the phrases "lightning bolts", nor "sceptres",
but only "were used by Aztec priests when they were doing rites
associated with the god Tlaloc"
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
www.famsi.org/.../images/aztec2figure03a.jpg
There is a report by the Spanish priests, but unfortunately it's in Rome:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Rios
I don't know about translations. Note the picture on the left. The god
is shown holding something which might be the artist's conception of a
lightning bolt.
More on Tlaloc:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlaloc
Pang
I had fun checking the google images for the thunderbolts... did some
reading on the Aztec gods/goddesses while I was doing so. That stone
image of Tlaloc is scary!! Wish Walksalone's god/goddess reports could
be made with images...
I like Mesoamerican art. I find some of the images fascinating. These
people had imagination. Too bad the European invaders destroyed so many
artifacts.
Criminal!!!!!!!
Indeed.
I hadn't realized till just now how much I like images with some of the
things I read... hrmmmm... when I read fiction I create my own images -
but most of what I read here, I want images..... non-fiction vs
fiction.
Yes. Sometimes the old saying: "A picture is worth a thousand words" is
true.
I know the mind has a tendency to see human/animal shapes where they
don't exist..... but did I see a "face" in the materials in the bin? I
copied the image and did some manipulation ... but couldn't make up my
mind one way or t'other. Lower right corner, I think.
Lower right? I thought I saw one in the lower left. Wait! It looks like
there might be a smaller one in the lower right too.
I wish there were better pictures.
So do I! Oh, so do I.
--
Quam bene vivas refert, non quam diu.
Seneca
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
29 May 2007 06:44:18 PM |
|
|
In article <mn.e9d37d7516b211b3.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
Carefully enucleating johac wrote :
In article <mn.e19c7d7531dd48ef.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
johac presented the following :
In article <mn.d4577d75beeb99cf.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
johac wrote :
In article <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
on 5/26/2007, Michael Gray avouched :
On Sat, 26 May 2007 00:38:34 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-88EB8F.00383426052007@news.giganews.com>
Picture at site (but doesn't show too much.)
---
Possible Aztec Offerings Found in Mexico
May 25, 7:47 PM (ET)
By MARK STEVENSON
MEXICO CITY (AP) - Archaeologists diving into a lake in the crater
of
a
snowcapped volcano found wooden scepters shaped like lightning bolts
that match 500-year-old descriptions by Spanish priests and
conquerors
writing about offerings to the Aztec rain god.
The lightning bolts - along with cones of copal incense and obsidian
knives - were found during scuba-diving expeditions in one of the
twin
lakes of the extinct Nevado de Toluca volcano, at more than 13,800
feet
above sea level.
Scientists must still conduct tests to determine the age of the
findings, but the writings after the Spanish conquest in 1521 have
led
them to believe the offerings were left in the frigid lake west of
Mexico City more than 500 years ago.
Lightning bolt scepters "were used by Aztec priests when they were
doing
rites associated with the god Tlaloc," said Johan Reinhard, an
anthropologist and explorer-in-residence for National Geographic
Society
who took part in more dives Thursday at the Lake of the Moon. "We
think
it is pretty clear that the Aztecs considered this one of the more
important places of Tlaloc."
The research, which also involves the volcano's Lake of the Sun, is
being led by Mexico's National Institute of Anthropology and
History.
Stanislaw Iwaniszewski, an archaeology professor at the institute,
said
Aztec iconography often associates Tlaloc with lightning bolts.
"They were left in the lake to bring rain storms," Iwaniszewski
said.
Copal incense was burned to form "clouds," and sharp spines from the
maguey cactus - which does not grow at that altitude - indicated
worshippers brought them there to draw blood from themselves as part
of
the sacrifice.
Luis Alberto Martos, the institute's director of archaeological
studies,
said other artifacts found in the clear 32-degree waters of the lake
indicate the ritual may have started about 100 B.C. - long before
the
Aztecas settled in the area in 1325.
---
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070525/D8PBNBJO0.html
Bleedin' 'eck mate!
If you can distinguish "Lightning Bolts" in that wodge of waterlogged
wood, that sack of sodden splinters, then good luck to you.
(And the obvious fact that you have never ever seen real lightning.)
As
I said, it's not a clear picture. Dracula Stakes, maybe.
Lightning Bolts? No way!
Where is the original Spanish text that these 500 year old priests
are
supposed to have vouchsafed?
(In case you had not guessed, I am a tad sceptical of the claims.)
I even notice that the only quote from the Spanish priests does NOT
contain the phrases "lightning bolts", nor "sceptres",
but only "were used by Aztec priests when they were doing rites
associated with the god Tlaloc"
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
www.famsi.org/.../images/aztec2figure03a.jpg
There is a report by the Spanish priests, but unfortunately it's in
Rome:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Rios
I don't know about translations. Note the picture on the left. The god
is shown holding something which might be the artist's conception of a
lightning bolt.
More on Tlaloc:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlaloc
Pang
I had fun checking the google images for the thunderbolts... did some
reading on the Aztec gods/goddesses while I was doing so. That stone
image of Tlaloc is scary!! Wish Walksalone's god/goddess reports could
be made with images...
I like Mesoamerican art. I find some of the images fascinating. These
people had imagination. Too bad the European invaders destroyed so many
artifacts.
Criminal!!!!!!!
Indeed.
I hadn't realized till just now how much I like images with some of the
things I read... hrmmmm... when I read fiction I create my own images -
but most of what I read here, I want images..... non-fiction vs
fiction.
Yes. Sometimes the old saying: "A picture is worth a thousand words" is
true.
I know the mind has a tendency to see human/animal shapes where they
don't exist..... but did I see a "face" in the materials in the bin? I
copied the image and did some manipulation ... but couldn't make up my
mind one way or t'other. Lower right corner, I think.
Lower right? I thought I saw one in the lower left. Wait! It looks like
there might be a smaller one in the lower right too.
I wish there were better pictures.
So do I! Oh, so do I.
Maybe there will be more about this later once the archaeologists have
had a chance to study the artifacts.
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
26 May 2007 08:27:23 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 26 May 2007 07:31:21 -0600, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>
:
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
www.famsi.org/.../images/aztec2figure03a.jpg
Thanks, but that is an elided version of the real address.
Can you please supply the full address?
(Or visit http://tinyurl.com & copy and paste the big address to make
a smaller one, perhaps)
--
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
28 May 2007 08:00:05 AM |
|
|
Michael Gray proclaimed:
On Sat, 26 May 2007 07:31:21 -0600, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
www.famsi.org/.../images/aztec2figure03a.jpg
Thanks, but that is an elided version of the real address.
Can you please supply the full address?
(Or visit http://tinyurl.com & copy and paste the big address to make
a smaller one, perhaps)
This link will take you to the image I found. It is on several
websites....
http://www.answers.com/topic/child-sacrifice-in-pre-columbian-cultures
The bolt is held in the right hand
--
De inimico non loquaris sed cogites.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
28 May 2007 06:19:42 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 28 May 2007 07:00:05 -0600, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.e1a47d752e7414c0.73271@att.net>
Michael Gray proclaimed:
On Sat, 26 May 2007 07:31:21 -0600, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
www.famsi.org/.../images/aztec2figure03a.jpg
Thanks, but that is an elided version of the real address.
Can you please supply the full address?
(Or visit http://tinyurl.com & copy and paste the big address to make
a smaller one, perhaps)
This link will take you to the image I found. It is on several
websites....
http://www.answers.com/topic/child-sacrifice-in-pre-columbian-cultures
The bolt is held in the right hand
Ah yes.
That was the image to which I was referring in another post.
How, pray tell, does anyone *know* that it is a lightning bolt, and
not a knife, or a stick?
It looks nothing like any lightning bolt that I have ever seen!
--
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
29 May 2007 08:49:00 AM |
|
|
Michael Gray squeezed out this idea :
On Mon, 28 May 2007 07:00:05 -0600, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.e1a47d752e7414c0.73271@att.net>
Michael Gray proclaimed:
On Sat, 26 May 2007 07:31:21 -0600, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
www.famsi.org/.../images/aztec2figure03a.jpg
Thanks, but that is an elided version of the real address.
Can you please supply the full address?
(Or visit http://tinyurl.com & copy and paste the big address to make
a smaller one, perhaps)
This link will take you to the image I found. It is on several
websites....
http://www.answers.com/topic/child-sacrifice-in-pre-columbian-cultures
The bolt is held in the right hand
Ah yes.
That was the image to which I was referring in another post.
How, pray tell, does anyone *know* that it is a lightning bolt, and
not a knife, or a stick?
It looks nothing like any lightning bolt that I have ever seen!
Well, I could ask if you had seen all the lightning bolts that have
ever fired - especially in Meso-America - but I won't. lol
--
Tamdiu discendum est, quamdiu vivas.
Seneca
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
31 May 2007 12:40:35 AM |
|
|
In article <mn.e9d57d75412303d8.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
Michael Gray squeezed out this idea :
On Mon, 28 May 2007 07:00:05 -0600, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.e1a47d752e7414c0.73271@att.net>
Michael Gray proclaimed:
On Sat, 26 May 2007 07:31:21 -0600, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
www.famsi.org/.../images/aztec2figure03a.jpg
Thanks, but that is an elided version of the real address.
Can you please supply the full address?
(Or visit http://tinyurl.com & copy and paste the big address to make
a smaller one, perhaps)
This link will take you to the image I found. It is on several
websites....
http://www.answers.com/topic/child-sacrifice-in-pre-columbian-cultures
The bolt is held in the right hand
Ah yes.
That was the image to which I was referring in another post.
How, pray tell, does anyone *know* that it is a lightning bolt, and
not a knife, or a stick?
It looks nothing like any lightning bolt that I have ever seen!
Well, I could ask if you had seen all the lightning bolts that have
ever fired - especially in Meso-America - but I won't. lol
I found this the other day. Lightning comes in a number of shapes:
http://www.lightningphotography.com/photos.html
I know how I would draw a lightning bolt, the usual jagged line, but I
don't know how an Aztec would have drawn one.
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
31 May 2007 08:47:36 AM |
|
|
After serious thinking johac wrote :
In article <mn.e9d57d75412303d8.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
Michael Gray squeezed out this idea :
On Mon, 28 May 2007 07:00:05 -0600, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.e1a47d752e7414c0.73271@att.net>
Michael Gray proclaimed:
On Sat, 26 May 2007 07:31:21 -0600, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
www.famsi.org/.../images/aztec2figure03a.jpg
Thanks, but that is an elided version of the real address.
Can you please supply the full address?
(Or visit http://tinyurl.com & copy and paste the big address to make
a smaller one, perhaps)
This link will take you to the image I found. It is on several
websites....
http://www.answers.com/topic/child-sacrifice-in-pre-columbian-cultures
The bolt is held in the right hand
Ah yes.
That was the image to which I was referring in another post.
How, pray tell, does anyone *know* that it is a lightning bolt, and
not a knife, or a stick?
It looks nothing like any lightning bolt that I have ever seen!
Well, I could ask if you had seen all the lightning bolts that have
ever fired - especially in Meso-America - but I won't. lol
I found this the other day. Lightning comes in a number of shapes:
http://www.lightningphotography.com/photos.html
I know how I would draw a lightning bolt, the usual jagged line, but I
don't know how an Aztec would have drawn one.
I counted eight photos in which the lightning was not the typical
jagged line .... one I thought was very similar to the slightly wavy
shape in the drawing.
--
Tamdiu discendum est, quamdiu vivas.
Seneca
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
31 May 2007 06:08:51 PM |
|
|
In article <mn.f9d37d7552d98d02.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
After serious thinking johac wrote :
In article <mn.e9d57d75412303d8.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
Michael Gray squeezed out this idea :
On Mon, 28 May 2007 07:00:05 -0600, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.e1a47d752e7414c0.73271@att.net>
Michael Gray proclaimed:
On Sat, 26 May 2007 07:31:21 -0600, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
www.famsi.org/.../images/aztec2figure03a.jpg
Thanks, but that is an elided version of the real address.
Can you please supply the full address?
(Or visit http://tinyurl.com & copy and paste the big address to make
a smaller one, perhaps)
This link will take you to the image I found. It is on several
websites....
http://www.answers.com/topic/child-sacrifice-in-pre-columbian-cultures
The bolt is held in the right hand
Ah yes.
That was the image to which I was referring in another post.
How, pray tell, does anyone *know* that it is a lightning bolt, and
not a knife, or a stick?
It looks nothing like any lightning bolt that I have ever seen!
Well, I could ask if you had seen all the lightning bolts that have
ever fired - especially in Meso-America - but I won't. lol
I found this the other day. Lightning comes in a number of shapes:
http://www.lightningphotography.com/photos.html
I know how I would draw a lightning bolt, the usual jagged line, but I
don't know how an Aztec would have drawn one.
I counted eight photos in which the lightning was not the typical
jagged line .... one I thought was very similar to the slightly wavy
shape in the drawing.
I noticed some too which might have been similar. I'm sure that culture
has something to do with it.
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
31 May 2007 07:08:42 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 31 May 2007 16:08:51 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-363161.16085131052007@news.giganews.com>
In article <mn.f9d37d7552d98d02.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
After serious thinking johac wrote :
In article <mn.e9d57d75412303d8.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
Michael Gray squeezed out this idea :
On Mon, 28 May 2007 07:00:05 -0600, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.e1a47d752e7414c0.73271@att.net>
Michael Gray proclaimed:
On Sat, 26 May 2007 07:31:21 -0600, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
www.famsi.org/.../images/aztec2figure03a.jpg
Thanks, but that is an elided version of the real address.
Can you please supply the full address?
(Or visit http://tinyurl.com & copy and paste the big address to make
a smaller one, perhaps)
This link will take you to the image I found. It is on several
websites....
http://www.answers.com/topic/child-sacrifice-in-pre-columbian-cultures
The bolt is held in the right hand
Ah yes.
That was the image to which I was referring in another post.
How, pray tell, does anyone *know* that it is a lightning bolt, and
not a knife, or a stick?
It looks nothing like any lightning bolt that I have ever seen!
Well, I could ask if you had seen all the lightning bolts that have
ever fired - especially in Meso-America - but I won't. lol
I found this the other day. Lightning comes in a number of shapes:
http://www.lightningphotography.com/photos.html
I know how I would draw a lightning bolt, the usual jagged line, but I
don't know how an Aztec would have drawn one.
I counted eight photos in which the lightning was not the typical
jagged line .... one I thought was very similar to the slightly wavy
shape in the drawing.
I noticed some too which might have been similar. I'm sure that culture
has something to do with it.
Or it could have just been an ordinary flensing knife...
The parsimony principle!
--
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
31 May 2007 11:55:40 PM |
|
|
In article <jqou53p9621ertvt4nkl002b0h7ij0hkjr@4ax.com>,
Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Thu, 31 May 2007 16:08:51 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-363161.16085131052007@news.giganews.com>
In article <mn.f9d37d7552d98d02.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
After serious thinking johac wrote :
In article <mn.e9d57d75412303d8.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
Michael Gray squeezed out this idea :
On Mon, 28 May 2007 07:00:05 -0600, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.e1a47d752e7414c0.73271@att.net>
Michael Gray proclaimed:
On Sat, 26 May 2007 07:31:21 -0600, Pangur Ban
<Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
www.famsi.org/.../images/aztec2figure03a.jpg
Thanks, but that is an elided version of the real address.
Can you please supply the full address?
(Or visit http://tinyurl.com & copy and paste the big address to
make
a smaller one, perhaps)
This link will take you to the image I found. It is on several
websites....
http://www.answers.com/topic/child-sacrifice-in-pre-columbian-cultures
The bolt is held in the right hand
Ah yes.
That was the image to which I was referring in another post.
How, pray tell, does anyone *know* that it is a lightning bolt, and
not a knife, or a stick?
It looks nothing like any lightning bolt that I have ever seen!
Well, I could ask if you had seen all the lightning bolts that have
ever fired - especially in Meso-America - but I won't. lol
I found this the other day. Lightning comes in a number of shapes:
http://www.lightningphotography.com/photos.html
I know how I would draw a lightning bolt, the usual jagged line, but I
don't know how an Aztec would have drawn one.
I counted eight photos in which the lightning was not the typical
jagged line .... one I thought was very similar to the slightly wavy
shape in the drawing.
I noticed some too which might have been similar. I'm sure that culture
has something to do with it.
Or it could have just been an ordinary flensing knife...
The parsimony principle!
--
The problem is that we can't dig up an Aztec priest and ask him.
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
01 Jun 2007 01:25:06 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 31 May 2007 21:55:40 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-06B709.21554031052007@news.giganews.com>
In article <jqou53p9621ertvt4nkl002b0h7ij0hkjr@4ax.com>,
Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Thu, 31 May 2007 16:08:51 -0700, johac
<jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-363161.16085131052007@news.giganews.com>
In article <mn.f9d37d7552d98d02.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
After serious thinking johac wrote :
In article <mn.e9d57d75412303d8.73271@att.net>,
Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net> wrote:
Michael Gray squeezed out this idea :
On Mon, 28 May 2007 07:00:05 -0600, Pangur Ban <Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.e1a47d752e7414c0.73271@att.net>
Michael Gray proclaimed:
On Sat, 26 May 2007 07:31:21 -0600, Pangur Ban
<Whistleblower@att.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <mn.d1c37d759c985246.73271@att.net>
I'm asking for my money back, I really am.
It's an outrage.
www.famsi.org/.../images/aztec2figure03a.jpg
Thanks, but that is an elided version of the real address.
Can you please supply the full address?
(Or visit http://tinyurl.com & copy and paste the big address to
make
a smaller one, perhaps)
This link will take you to the image I found. It is on several
websites....
http://www.answers.com/topic/child-sacrifice-in-pre-columbian-cultures
The bolt is held in the right hand
Ah yes.
That was the image to which I was referring in another post.
How, pray tell, does anyone *know* that it is a lightning bolt, and
not a knife, or a stick?
It looks nothing like any lightning bolt that I have ever seen!
Well, I could ask if you had seen all the lightning bolts that have
ever fired - especially in Meso-America - but I won't. lol
I found this the other day. Lightning comes in a number of shapes:
http://www.lightningphotography.com/photos.html
I know how I would draw a lightning bolt, the usual jagged line, but I
don't know how an Aztec would have drawn one.
I counted eight photos in which the lightning was not the typical
jagged line .... one I thought was very similar to the slightly wavy
shape in the drawing.
I noticed some too which might have been similar. I'm sure that culture
has something to do with it.
Or it could have just been an ordinary flensing knife...
The parsimony principle!
--
The problem is that we can't dig up an Aztec priest and ask him.
Well, we can actually.
I expect that we may not get an answer though.
--
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Aztec Tlaloc Offerings Found in Mexico |
01 Jun 2007 05:38:03 PM |
|
|
In article <usev539m405k4jr9ae17orb5mevv7hc632@4ax.com>,
Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Thu, 31 May 2007 21:55:40 -0700, joha | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
