| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Elroy Willis" |
| Date: |
15 Sep 2005 07:06:50 AM |
| Object: |
Baal Shem |
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_Shem
"Baal Shem in Hebrew translates as "Master of the Name", and is almost
always used in reference to Israel ben Eliezer, the Rabbi who founded
Hasidic Judaism and was called the Baal Shem Tov, or Master of the
Good Name."
"As well as meaning "Master," Baal also means Lord, as can be seen in
the name Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies."
====
So Baal, which many Christians think was an evil pagan god, is
actually a Jewish or Semitic name for "Master" or "Lord".
When these masters or lords of "the name" uttered some specific name
of some god, they were supposed to be able to heal people and drive
out demons.
Matthew 12:24
"But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by
Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
Matthew 12:27
"And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive
them out?"
So what we have here is a superstitious idea that uttering some holy
name will enable a person to drive out demons or heal people, just
like we see with modern faith healers like Benny Hinn and crackpots
and crooks like him, no different than Jesus or Baal Shem Tov.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
15 Sep 2005 12:37:40 PM |
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In <1onii194n2fkv7nci8ufh1a115529v5rhu@4ax.com>, on 09/15/05
at 12:06 PM, Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> said:
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_Shem
"Baal Shem in Hebrew translates as "Master of the Name", and is almost
Actually not quite, Baal mant possesor, as in owner of the nae. Master
would be lord or adoni.
always used in reference to Israel ben Eliezer, the Rabbi who founded
Hasidic Judaism and was called the Baal Shem Tov, or Master of the Good
Name."
So, the ripping off of namers is a fine tradition among the revealed gods
of the desrt. Does this surprisae you grasshopper?
"As well as meaning "Master," Baal also means Lord, as can be seen in the
name Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies."
BAAL
1. The name ba'al is a common Semitic noun meaning `lord, owner'. Applied
to a god it occurs about 90 times in the OT. The LXX transcribes Baca,
Vulgate Baal, plural Baak and Baalim. Though normally an appellative, the
name is used in Ugaritic religion as the proper name of a deity. Also in
the Bible, the noun occurs as the name of a specific Canaanite god. 2.
According to Pettinato the noun ba`al was originally used as a divine
name. It is attested as such already in third millennium texts. The
mention of [greek text] in the list of deities from Abu Salabikh (R. D.
BIGGS, Inscription from Abu Salabikh [OIP 99; Chicago 1974] no. 83 v 11 =
no. 84 obv. iii 8') provides the oldest evidence of Baal's worship. Since
the Abu Salabikh god list mentions the god amidst a wealth of other
deities, each of them referred to by its proper name, it is unlikely that
ba'al should serve here as an adjective. The appellative `lord', moreover,
has a different spelling, viz. be-lu or ba-ah-lu. In texts from Ebla (ca.
2400 BCE) the name Baal occurs only as an element in personal names and
toponyms.
So Baal, which many Christians think was an evil pagan god, is actually a
Jewish or Semitic name for "Master" or "Lord".
It was also the god worshipped between él & yahweh.
It is aslso a role that the priests claimed for yahweh, as in: Hosea:
2:9 And she shall run after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them,
and she shall seek them, but shall not find them; then shall she say: 'I
will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me
than now.' 2:10 For she did not know that it was I that gave her the
corn, and the wine, and the oil, and multiplied unto her silver and gold,
which they used for Baal.
2:14 And I will lay waste her vines and her fig-trees, whereof she hath
said: 'These are my hire that my lovers have given me'; and I will make
them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them. 2:15 And I
will visit upon her the days of the Baalim, wherein she offered unto them,
and decked herself with her ear-rings and her jewels, and went after her
lovers, and forgot Me, saith the Lord. 2:16 Therefore, behold, I will
allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak tenderly unto
her.
2:17 And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of
Achor for a door of hope; and she shall respond there, as in the days of
her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.
2:18 And it shall be at that day, saith the Lord, that thou shalt call Me
Ishi, and shalt call Me no more Baali. 2:19 For I will take away the
names of the Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be mentioned
by their name. 2:20 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with
the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the
creeping things of the ground; and I will break the bow and the sword and
the battle out of the land, and will make them to lie down safely. 2:21
And I will betroth thee unto Me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto Me
in righteousness, and in justice, and in loving kindness, and in
compassion.
With over 90 references, & the online JPS, you can have fun with a name
like that.
When these masters or lords of "the name" uttered some specific name of
some god, they were supposed to be able to heal people and drive out
demons.
Not sure about that, reference?
Matthew 12:24
"But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,
the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
BAAL ZEBUB
1. The name Baal Zebub occurs only four times in the OT (2 Kgs
1:2.3.6.16). In 2 Kgs 1 an accident of Ahaziah, the king of Israel, and
his consulting the oracle of the god Baal Zebub of Ekron is described. For
etymological reasons, Baal Zebub must be considered a Semitic god; he is
taken over by the Philistine Ekronites and incorporated into their local
cult. Zebub is the collective noun for `flies', also attested in Ugaritic
(W. H. VAN SOLDT, UF 21 [1989] 369-373: dbb), Akkadian (zubbu),
post-biblical Hebrew, Jewish Aramaic (izn='I), Syriac (debbaba) and in
other Semitic languages.
2. On the basis zebub, `flies', the name of the god was interpreted as
`Lord of the flies'; it was assumed that he was a god who could cause or
cure diseases. F. BAETHGEN (Beitrage zur semitischen Religionsgeschichte
[1888] 25) expressed the view that the flies related to Baal were seen as
a symbol of the solar heat; they were sacred animals. In early Israel,
flies were considered a source of nuisance (Isa 7:18; Qoh 10:1). TANGBERG
(1992) interpreted the name Baal-zebub as "Baal (statue) with the flies
(ornamented)" analogous to the Mesopotamian `Nintu with the flies'. This
can be compared with the fact that the Greeks called Zeus as healer dar
µax oS (Clemens Alexandrinus, Protrepticus 1I,38,4; Pausanias, Graeciae
Descriptio V 14,1) and that they knew a flaw; soiaypoS (Pausanias, VIII
26,7: mainly concerning the driving away of the flies with sacrifices).
Matthew 12:27
"And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive
them out?"
So what we have here is a superstitious idea that uttering some holy name
will enable a person to drive out demons or heal people, just like we see
with modern faith healers like Benny Hinn and crackpots and crooks like
him, no different than Jesus or Baal Shem Tov.
Actually there is a difference, they know they are lying or are out of
touch with reality. The ancients were doing what they could to understand
their world.
walksalone who enjoys his copy of the Dictionary Of Deities And Demons In
the Bible, though for most people I would say let the library pick up the
tab.
-- A library is thought in cold storage.
Herbert Samuel, politician and diplomat (1870-1963)
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
15 Sep 2005 04:59:22 PM |
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walksalone wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> said:
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_Shem
"Baal Shem in Hebrew translates as "Master of the Name", and is almost
Actually not quite, Baal mant possesor, as in owner of the nae. Master
would be lord or adoni.
always used in reference to Israel ben Eliezer, the Rabbi who founded
Hasidic Judaism and was called the Baal Shem Tov, or Master of the Good
Name."
So, the ripping off of namers is a fine tradition among the revealed gods
of the desrt. Does this surprisae you grasshopper?
No, it doesn't surprise me. Silberstein wants to pretend it didn't
happen, though. He's in denial, don't you think?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "James Ascher" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
15 Sep 2005 07:29:10 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
walksalone wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> said:
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_Shem
"Baal Shem in Hebrew translates as "Master of the Name", and is almost
Actually not quite, Baal mant possesor, as in owner of the nae. Master
would be lord or adoni.
always used in reference to Israel ben Eliezer, the Rabbi who founded
Hasidic Judaism and was called the Baal Shem Tov, or Master of the Good
Name."
So, the ripping off of namers is a fine tradition among the revealed gods
of the desrt. Does this surprisae you grasshopper?
No, it doesn't surprise me. Silberstein wants to pretend it didn't
happen, though. He's in denial, don't you think?
Typical of religionists.
James
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
15 Sep 2005 08:26:28 PM |
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On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 00:29:10 GMT, in alt.atheism , James Ascher
<jwa1968@earthlink.net> in
<qloWe.328$Gg1.250@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> wrote:
Elroy Willis wrote:
walksalone wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> said:
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_Shem
"Baal Shem in Hebrew translates as "Master of the Name", and is almost
Actually not quite, Baal mant possesor, as in owner of the nae. Master
would be lord or adoni.
always used in reference to Israel ben Eliezer, the Rabbi who founded
Hasidic Judaism and was called the Baal Shem Tov, or Master of the Good
Name."
So, the ripping off of namers is a fine tradition among the revealed gods
of the desrt. Does this surprisae you grasshopper?
No, it doesn't surprise me. Silberstein wants to pretend it didn't
happen, though. He's in denial, don't you think?
Typical of religionists.
And what is my religion? And what else do I do that is typical of
religionists? Do let us know.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
16 Sep 2005 05:59:34 AM |
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In <4p7ki1haasjts3hcoeifalo8f3caa9qciq@4ax.com>, on 09/16/05
at 01:26 AM, Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> said:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 00:29:10 GMT, in alt.atheism , James Ascher
<jwa1968@earthlink.net> in
<qloWe.328$Gg1.250@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> wrote:
Elroy Willis wrote:
walksalone wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> said:
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_Shem
"Baal Shem in Hebrew translates as "Master of the Name", and is almost
Actually not quite, Baal mant possesor, as in owner of the nae. Master
would be lord or adoni.
always used in reference to Israel ben Eliezer, the Rabbi who founded
Hasidic Judaism and was called the Baal Shem Tov, or Master of the Good
Name."
So, the ripping off of namers is a fine tradition among the revealed gods
of the desrt. Does this surprisae you grasshopper?
No, it doesn't surprise me. Silberstein wants to pretend it didn't
happen, though. He's in denial, don't you think?
Typical of religionists.
And what is my religion? And what else do I do that is typical of
religionists? Do let us know.
Dunno, Matt is right & we all need to follow his lead?
walkslaone who could care less if Matt has one or not, & don'r believe I've everf seen him claim one.
--
When one door closes another door opens; but we so often look so long and
so regretfully upon the closed door, that we do not see the ones which open
for us.
Alexander Graham Bell, inventor (1847-1922
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
16 Sep 2005 02:42:33 PM |
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On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 05:59:34 -0500, in alt.atheism ,
walksalone@dirty.dastardly.deeds.done.dirt.cheap.llc in
<432aa5f8$2$jnyxfnybar$mr2ice@127.0.0.1> wrote:
In <4p7ki1haasjts3hcoeifalo8f3caa9qciq@4ax.com>, on 09/16/05
at 01:26 AM, Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> said:
[snip]
And what is my religion? And what else do I do that is typical of
religionists? Do let us know.
Dunno, Matt is right & we all need to follow his lead?
walkslaone who could care less if Matt has one or not, & don'r believe I've everf seen him claim one.
Not only do I not claim one, I make it as clear as I can that I don't.
My religion is irrelevant to anything I write in that I claim no
religious authority nor do I promote a religious position. Nor do I
care about yours.
I do this for two distinct reasons. One, I don't want someone to agree
with me because I hold their religious position. I would rather people
saw me as one of "them" and looked for the flaws to attack. Second, I
happen to think that religion is pretty private. None of the things
that are important to (my) personal religious views translate well on
the Usenet. If we are sitting down late over a bourbon (or late night
drink of choice) or in a coffee house or sitting by a fire, then as
friends we can talk about this. I think that religion is really to
complex a subject to properly encapsulate in a single term. Even among
atheists, which should allow the simplest of descriptions, there is a
wide range of positions. So, instead, let my posts stand for
themselves.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
16 Sep 2005 09:01:54 AM |
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walksalone wrote in alt.atheism
Matt Silberstein said:
James Ascher <jwa1968@earthlink.net> in
Elroy Willis wrote:
walksalone wrote in alt.atheism
So, the ripping off of namers is a fine tradition among the revealed gods
of the desrt. Does this surprisae you grasshopper?
No, it doesn't surprise me. Silberstein wants to pretend it didn't
happen, though. He's in denial, don't you think?
Typical of religionists.
And what is my religion? And what else do I do that is typical of
religionists? Do let us know.
Dunno, Matt is right & we all need to follow his lead?
He's definitely a supporter of the priesthoods, both past and present,
from what I can tell. He seems to support the RCC and Jewish rabbis
as well. It looks to me like he can't seem to fathom a world without
them.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
16 Sep 2005 02:33:39 PM |
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On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:01:54 GMT, in alt.atheism , Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> in
<9rili1lv7kspl4m077p82k24nuqmjp2uuf@4ax.com> wrote:
walksalone wrote in alt.atheism
Matt Silberstein said:
James Ascher <jwa1968@earthlink.net> in
Elroy Willis wrote:
walksalone wrote in alt.atheism
So, the ripping off of namers is a fine tradition among the revealed gods
of the desrt. Does this surprisae you grasshopper?
No, it doesn't surprise me. Silberstein wants to pretend it didn't
happen, though. He's in denial, don't you think?
Typical of religionists.
And what is my religion? And what else do I do that is typical of
religionists? Do let us know.
Dunno, Matt is right & we all need to follow his lead?
He's definitely a supporter of the priesthoods, both past and present,
from what I can tell. He seems to support the RCC and Jewish rabbis
as well. It looks to me like he can't seem to fathom a world without
them.
You should have read the next sentence. I needed to to understand
Walks (what is the short version anyway, WA?) point. I have no idea
what you mean by a supporter of the priesthood. I reject whiggish
interpretations of history, if that is what you mean. I don't judge
people from 2-3000 years ago by the light of modern science. I reject
the notion that Jerry Falwell is the model for all religious leaders
in the world. (I say that because I happen to know several who are not
dishonest ignorant power hungry hypocrites.) As to "fathom", again I
don't know what you mean. We do live in a world with them. I could
imagine a world without them, but that is not our world.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
20 Sep 2005 06:15:16 PM |
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Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
As to "fathom", again I don't know what you mean. We do live in a world
with them. I could imagine a world without them, but that is not our world.
Fathom and imagine mean the same to me. What's the difference?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
20 Sep 2005 07:32:52 PM |
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"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:ss51j1p650qmludlthkbagp9crhhrufojv@4ax.com...
Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
As to "fathom", again I don't know what you mean. We do live in a world
with them. I could imagine a world without them, but that is not our
world.
Fathom and imagine mean the same to me. What's the difference?
I thought that 'fathom', used in that manner, was
closer to 'understand'.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
20 Sep 2005 07:49:19 PM |
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Michelle Malkin <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
As to "fathom", again I don't know what you mean. We do live in a world
with them. I could imagine a world without them, but that is not our
world.
Fathom and imagine mean the same to me. What's the difference?
I thought that 'fathom', used in that manner, was
closer to 'understand'.
I've always considered them pretty much synonymous. I guess I used
the wrong word. :)
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
20 Sep 2005 07:36:06 PM |
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Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
news:ss51j1p650qmludlthkbagp9crhhrufojv@4ax.com:
Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
As to "fathom", again I don't know what you mean. We do live in a
world with them. I could imagine a world without them, but that is
not our world.
Fathom and imagine mean the same to me. What's the difference?
"Fathom" is more like "understand" with the connotation of something
"deep".
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"This city, for the first time that I can remember,
is drug-free and violence-free.
And we plan to keep it that way." - Mayor Ray Nagin
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
20 Sep 2005 07:56:41 PM |
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Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
As to "fathom", again I don't know what you mean. We do live in a
world with them. I could imagine a world without them, but that is
not our world.
Fathom and imagine mean the same to me. What's the difference?
"Fathom" is more like "understand" with the connotation of something
"deep".
I think it's time for an etymological search...
<clickety click>
Ah, fathom is a measure of "deepness" indeed. Six feet or so...
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
21 Sep 2005 09:50:52 AM |
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 23:15:16 GMT, in alt.atheism , Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> in
<ss51j1p650qmludlthkbagp9crhhrufojv@4ax.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
As to "fathom", again I don't know what you mean. We do live in a world
with them. I could imagine a world without them, but that is not our world.
Fathom and imagine mean the same to me. What's the difference?
Let me try an answer to what I think you are asking. The short answer
is "no". That is, I can't imagine in any detail a world without
religions. I simply don't know enough about humans, how they think and
act, to be able to think about, in any meaningful way, a world where
people did not form religions. What would cause such a world? You
probably think that if people were just educated and thought logically
religion would disappear. I don't see that at all, I know too many
educated intelligent people who are religious. (And too may stupid
ignorant people who aren't.)
Your question is sort of like asking me to think about a world without
crime. The question is how do we achieve such a world? Put a cop in
every house and you reduce crime, but that is a terrible world. Get
rid of people and you have no crime. You can wave you hands and say
"get rid of greed", but I don't know what it means to have
"non-greedy" people. The desire for things, for security, etc. is too
engrained in people.
So tell me how you would get rid of religions and I can tell you what
I think.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
21 Sep 2005 11:21:15 AM |
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Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
So tell me how you would get rid of religions and I can tell you what
I think.
No thanks, it's hopeless.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
21 Sep 2005 05:05:33 PM |
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On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 16:21:15 GMT, in alt.atheism , Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> in
<l023j1p9njl2bmdmkf1t90gq4vv0bsui9d@4ax.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
So tell me how you would get rid of religions and I can tell you what
I think.
No thanks, it's hopeless.
Then the question is meaningless.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
15 Sep 2005 10:46:44 AM |
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On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:06:50 GMT, in alt.atheism , Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> in
<1onii194n2fkv7nci8ufh1a115529v5rhu@4ax.com> wrote:
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_Shem
"Baal Shem in Hebrew translates as "Master of the Name", and is almost
always used in reference to Israel ben Eliezer, the Rabbi who founded
Hasidic Judaism and was called the Baal Shem Tov, or Master of the
Good Name."
"As well as meaning "Master," Baal also means Lord, as can be seen in
the name Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies."
====
So Baal, which many Christians think was an evil pagan god, is
actually a Jewish or Semitic name for "Master" or "Lord".
No. Baal is a word in Hebrew and related languages. And just like
"god" in English refers to both a class and an individual, so did
Baal.
When these masters or lords of "the name" uttered some specific name
of some god, they were supposed to be able to heal people and drive
out demons.
That have very little to do with the Baal Shem Tov. You really ought
to try to learn something rather than grabbing the first thing you
understand and figure you know everything.
Matthew 12:24
"But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by
Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
Matthew 12:27
"And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive
them out?"
So what we have here is a superstitious idea that uttering some holy
name will enable a person to drive out demons or heal people, just
like we see with modern faith healers like Benny Hinn and crackpots
and crooks like him, no different than Jesus or Baal Shem Tov.
Yeah, how silly it is for people hundreds of years ago to not have our
modern science. They sure were stupid.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
15 Sep 2005 12:06:16 PM |
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Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
in alt.atheism Elroy Willis wrote:
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_Shem
"Baal Shem in Hebrew translates as "Master of the Name", and is almost
always used in reference to Israel ben Eliezer, the Rabbi who founded
Hasidic Judaism and was called the Baal Shem Tov, or Master of the
Good Name."
"As well as meaning "Master," Baal also means Lord, as can be seen in
the name Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies."
====
So Baal, which many Christians think was an evil pagan god, is
actually a Jewish or Semitic name for "Master" or "Lord".
No. Baal is a word in Hebrew and related languages.
Which means "master" or "lord." Do you disagree?
And just like "god" in English refers to both a class and an individual,
so did Baal.
Why don't you just admit that the Jews borrowed god names from the
surrounding cultures? Sometimes they demonized them, sometimes they
revered them and adopted them...
What have you to say about Shamash, the Babylonian sun god and the
name for the central part of the menorah? Just a linguistic
coincidence?
When these masters or lords of "the name" uttered some specific name
of some god, they were supposed to be able to heal people and drive
out demons.
That have very little to do with the Baal Shem Tov.
It has a lot to do with him. He was supposed to be able to heal
people, just like Jesus. By being a "master" or "baal" or "lord" of
the ineffable name of some make-believe space pixie that people once
worshipped as a god, they were supposed to be able to heal sick
people.
You really ought to try to learn something rather than grabbing the first
thing you understand and figure you know everything.
Quit trying to pretend what I said is incorrect. You know just as
well as I do that Jews throughout history have worshipped many more
than one single god, and the names have changed over time.
HaShem might seem to be the final name, since it's so vague, but you
know damn well that praying to HaShem is no different than praying to
Baal, or El, or YHVH, or Isis, or Ra...
Matthew 12:24
"But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by
Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
Matthew 12:27
"And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive
them out?"
So what we have here is a superstitious idea that uttering some holy
name will enable a person to drive out demons or heal people, just
like we see with modern faith healers like Benny Hinn and crackpots
and crooks like him, no different than Jesus or Baal Shem Tov.
Yeah, how silly it is for people hundreds of years ago to not have our
modern science. They sure were stupid.
The people who believe praying to some god or uttering its name will
help them out are certainly soaked in superstition. There were plenty
of Jewish rabbis and scholars who realized Baal Shem Tov was a fake,
just like the ones who realized Jesus was a false messiah.
I'm actually applauding them, in case you couldn't tell...
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "James Ascher" |
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| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
15 Sep 2005 07:26:44 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
in alt.atheism Elroy Willis wrote:
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_Shem
"Baal Shem in Hebrew translates as "Master of the Name", and is almost
always used in reference to Israel ben Eliezer, the Rabbi who founded
Hasidic Judaism and was called the Baal Shem Tov, or Master of the
Good Name."
"As well as meaning "Master," Baal also means Lord, as can be seen in
the name Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies."
====
So Baal, which many Christians think was an evil pagan god, is
actually a Jewish or Semitic name for "Master" or "Lord".
No. Baal is a word in Hebrew and related languages.
Which means "master" or "lord." Do you disagree?
And just like "god" in English refers to both a class and an individual,
so did Baal.
Why don't you just admit that the Jews borrowed god names from the
surrounding cultures? Sometimes they demonized them, sometimes they
revered them and adopted them...
What have you to say about Shamash, the Babylonian sun god and the
name for the central part of the menorah? Just a linguistic
coincidence?
When these masters or lords of "the name" uttered some specific name
of some god, they were supposed to be able to heal people and drive
out demons.
That have very little to do with the Baal Shem Tov.
It has a lot to do with him. He was supposed to be able to heal
people, just like Jesus. By being a "master" or "baal" or "lord" of
the ineffable name of some make-believe space pixie that people once
worshipped as a god, they were supposed to be able to heal sick
people.
You really ought to try to learn something rather than grabbing the first
thing you understand and figure you know everything.
Quit trying to pretend what I said is incorrect. You know just as
well as I do that Jews throughout history have worshipped many more
than one single god, and the names have changed over time.
HaShem might seem to be the final name, since it's so vague, but you
know damn well that praying to HaShem is no different than praying to
Baal, or El, or YHVH, or Isis, or Ra...
<Cheer> Isis, Isis, Ra, Ra Ra! </Cheer>
James
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
|
| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
15 Sep 2005 12:57:10 PM |
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On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 17:06:16 GMT, in alt.atheism , Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> in
<v59ji1h9fanqgpm22nmeq31aqcjs5ic1iq@4ax.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
in alt.atheism Elroy Willis wrote:
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_Shem
"Baal Shem in Hebrew translates as "Master of the Name", and is almost
always used in reference to Israel ben Eliezer, the Rabbi who founded
Hasidic Judaism and was called the Baal Shem Tov, or Master of the
Good Name."
"As well as meaning "Master," Baal also means Lord, as can be seen in
the name Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies."
====
So Baal, which many Christians think was an evil pagan god, is
actually a Jewish or Semitic name for "Master" or "Lord".
No. Baal is a word in Hebrew and related languages.
Which means "master" or "lord." Do you disagree?
Did you read the next sentence?
And just like "god" in English refers to both a class and an individual,
so did Baal.
Why don't you just admit that the Jews borrowed god names from the
surrounding cultures? Sometimes they demonized them, sometimes they
revered them and adopted them...
Why don't you try to stick to a subject rather than running off to
other topics? Borrowing the names of foreign gods from foreign
cultures is rather reasonable, don't you think?
What have you to say about Shamash, the Babylonian sun god and the
name for the central part of the menorah? Just a linguistic
coincidence?
Why don't you try to stick to a subject rather than running off to
other topics?
When these masters or lords of "the name" uttered some specific name
of some god, they were supposed to be able to heal people and drive
out demons.
That have very little to do with the Baal Shem Tov.
It has a lot to do with him. He was supposed to be able to heal
people, just like Jesus.
But still a very minor part of the Baal Shem Tov.
By being a "master" or "baal" or "lord" of
the ineffable name of some make-believe space pixie that people once
worshipped as a god, they were supposed to be able to heal sick
people.
If what you want to do is toss insults and such, then don't pretend
you have an argument. Don't pretend to be a student of a subject.
You really ought to try to learn something rather than grabbing the first
thing you understand and figure you know everything.
Quit trying to pretend what I said is incorrect.
It was not meaningful enough to be correct.
You know just as
well as I do that Jews throughout history have worshipped many more
than one single god, and the names have changed over time.
No, I don't know that.
HaShem might seem to be the final name, since it's so vague, but you
know damn well that praying to HaShem is no different than praying to
Baal, or El, or YHVH, or Isis, or Ra...
Your ability to know what I think is impressive. Your inability to see
meaningful distinctions is sad.
Matthew 12:24
"But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by
Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
Matthew 12:27
"And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive
them out?"
So what we have here is a superstitious idea that uttering some holy
name will enable a person to drive out demons or heal people, just
like we see with modern faith healers like Benny Hinn and crackpots
and crooks like him, no different than Jesus or Baal Shem Tov.
Yeah, how silly it is for people hundreds of years ago to not have our
modern science. They sure were stupid.
The people who believe praying to some god or uttering its name will
help them out are certainly soaked in superstition. There were plenty
of Jewish rabbis and scholars who realized Baal Shem Tov was a fake,
just like the ones who realized Jesus was a false messiah.
I'm actually applauding them, in case you couldn't tell...
No, I could not. I see you again attacking people from the past for
not having modern knowledge.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
|
| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
15 Sep 2005 04:57:00 PM |
|
|
Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
in alt.atheism , Elroy Willis wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
<snip>
Why don't you just admit that the Jews borrowed god names from the
surrounding cultures? Sometimes they demonized them, sometimes they
revered them and adopted them...
Why don't you try to stick to a subject rather than running off to
other topics? Borrowing the names of foreign gods from foreign
cultures is rather reasonable, don't you think?
<snip>
You know just as well as I do that Jews throughout history have worshipped
many more than one single god, and the names have changed over time.
No, I don't know that.
You admitted it up above. You need to quit trying to defend Judaism
and give it up. It's just as stupid as Christianity and Islam and all
the other ***** religions out there.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
|
| Title: Re: Baal Shem |
15 Sep 2005 07:28:32 PM |
|
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On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 21:57:00 GMT, in alt.atheism , Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> in
<79rji1l79llibkfu5l0e31604iqhdgg3i6@4ax.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
in alt.atheism , Elroy Willis wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
<snip>
Why don't you just admit that the Jews borrowed god names from the
surrounding cultures? Sometimes they demonized them, sometimes they
revered them and adopted them...
Why don't you try to stick to a subject rather than running off to
other topics? Borrowing the names of foreign gods from foreign
cultures is rather reasonable, don't you think?
<snip>
You know just as well as I do that Jews throughout history have worshipped
many more than one single god, and the names have changed over time.
No, I don't know that.
You admitted it up above. You need to quit trying to defend Judaism
and give it up. It's just as stupid as Christianity and Islam and all
the other ***** religions out there.
First, I am not and have not defended Judaism except that I defend a
variety things from dishonest claims. Second, I did not "admit"
anything (a cheap lawyer trick to use "admit"). Third, what I said,
but you snipped to remove context, was that they used the "foreign"
name for the foreign god to refer to that foreign god. That has
nothing to do with the idea that Judaism was once polytheism. You have
taken a linguistic confusion on your part and run off in all
directions.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
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