Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood

Religions > Atheism > Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood

LINK TO THIS PAGE

rating : 0 | 0

Page 1 of 9

Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Bear"
Date:	11 Oct 2005 05:16:05 AM
Object:	Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood

http://jesusneverexisted.com/babylon.htm
--
Bear
"Do good, for good is good to do; Spurn bribe of heaven and threat of hell."
.

User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	11 Oct 2005 05:47:08 AM

Bear wrote:

http://jesusneverexisted.com/babylon.htm

is a good site to inspire people to address these things.
but what i have found is that a genuine "truth-seeker" will dig into
the source texts in the first place.
origins of Judaism ?
as i have said before, to inquire into those things eventually becomes
an existential inquiry for Jews.
--

Bear

"Do good, for good is good to do; Spurn bribe of heaven and threat of hell."

Good for whom ? i think this the essential question.
i reject a universal morality, a universal civilization, and a
universal mythology.
.

User: "Bear"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	11 Oct 2005 05:57:52 AM

"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: Bear wrote:
: > http://jesusneverexisted.com/babylon.htm
:
: is a good site to inspire people to address these things.
: but what i have found is that a genuine "truth-seeker" will dig into
: the source texts in the first place.
I agree.
: origins of Judaism ?
: as i have said before, to inquire into those things eventually becomes
: an existential inquiry for Jews.
Hopefully a site like the above mentioned will motivate Jews to make an
objective investigation of their origins.
--
Bear
"Do good, for good is good to do; Spurn bribe of heaven and threat of hell."
.

User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	11 Oct 2005 06:06:40 AM

Bear wrote:

"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: Bear wrote:
: > http://jesusneverexisted.com/babylon.htm
:
: is a good site to inspire people to address these things.
: but what i have found is that a genuine "truth-seeker" will dig into
: the source texts in the first place.

I agree.

: origins of Judaism ?
: as i have said before, to inquire into those things eventually becomes
: an existential inquiry for Jews.

Hopefully a site like the above mentioned will motivate Jews to make an
objective investigation of their origins.

i can't see how they would feel it in their best interests to redefine
themselves at this stage.
it would be like Christian Europe circa 1000 CE while facing Islam in
the southeast and Mongols at the Urals suddenly deconstructing the
Christian based mythology.
one might argue that pro or con in any case they are not going to do
it.
even reform and reconstructionist depend on such things.
no root means no destiny for any people.
.

User: "Bear"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	11 Oct 2005 06:14:14 AM

"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: Bear wrote:
: > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > : Bear wrote:
: > : > http://jesusneverexisted.com/babylon.htm
: > :
: > : is a good site to inspire people to address these things.
: > : but what i have found is that a genuine "truth-seeker" will dig into
: > : the source texts in the first place.
: >
: > I agree.
: >
: > : origins of Judaism ?
: > : as i have said before, to inquire into those things eventually becomes
: > : an existential inquiry for Jews.
: >
: > Hopefully a site like the above mentioned will motivate Jews to make an
: > objective investigation of their origins.:
: i can't see how they would feel it in their best interests to redefine
: themselves at this stage.
:
: it would be like Christian Europe circa 1000 CE while facing Islam in
: the southeast and Mongols at the Urals suddenly deconstructing the
: Christian based mythology.
:
: one might argue that pro or con in any case they are not going to do
: it.
: even reform and reconstructionist depend on such things.
I guess some value truth - whatever it turns out to be - more than others
: no root means no destiny for any people.
IYO, what root do atheists have and what destiny or purpose do they have?
--
Bear
"Do good, for good is good to do; Spurn bribe of heaven and threat of hell."
.

User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	11 Oct 2005 06:28:29 AM

Bear wrote:

"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: Bear wrote:
: > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > : Bear wrote:
: > : > http://jesusneverexisted.com/babylon.htm
: > :
: > : is a good site to inspire people to address these things.
: > : but what i have found is that a genuine "truth-seeker" will dig into
: > : the source texts in the first place.
: >
: > I agree.
: >
: > : origins of Judaism ?
: > : as i have said before, to inquire into those things eventually becomes
: > : an existential inquiry for Jews.
: >
: > Hopefully a site like the above mentioned will motivate Jews to make an
: > objective investigation of their origins.:
: i can't see how they would feel it in their best interests to redefine
: themselves at this stage.
:
: it would be like Christian Europe circa 1000 CE while facing Islam in
: the southeast and Mongols at the Urals suddenly deconstructing the
: Christian based mythology.
:
: one might argue that pro or con in any case they are not going to do
: it.
: even reform and reconstructionist depend on such things.

I guess some value truth - whatever it turns out to be - more than others

: no root means no destiny for any people.

IYO, what root do atheists have and what destiny or purpose do they have?

--
Bear

i don't view 'atheism' as anything more than a property or attribute of
human beings, just as the RH allele present or absent indicates a blood
type.
atheism is not a culture, nor is it a religion.
atheists, like other humans, have an inherent religious attribute which
manifests itself to varying degrees depending on one's encoded
personality and exposure to whatever culture /environment.
root and destiny are religious terms in a sense and belong to language
and culture and "race" so-called if we could even define such.
for example, if a people are called Lenape in North America i would
dare say they need a unified expression of culture and art, nourished
by a religious representation of root and destiny, which would inform
all other areas of their human life, life for humans as defined by
inhabiting the symbolic of language by which the blizzard of "objective
facts" are organized and interpreted and given meaning to the group.
for a basis they need ancestral soil and language to get that going i
suppose.
a non-Lenape atheist and a Lenape atheist they have little in common
really concerning such questions as root and destiny.
.

User: "Bear"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	11 Oct 2005 06:42:14 AM

"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: Bear wrote:
: > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > : Bear wrote:
: > : > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > : > : Bear wrote:
: > : > : > http://jesusneverexisted.com/babylon.htm
: > : > :
: > : > : is a good site to inspire people to address these things.
: > : > : but what i have found is that a genuine "truth-seeker" will dig
into
: > : > : the source texts in the first place.
: > : >
: > : > I agree.
: > : >
: > : > : origins of Judaism ?
: > : > : as i have said before, to inquire into those things eventually
becomes
: > : > : an existential inquiry for Jews.
: > : >
: > : > Hopefully a site like the above mentioned will motivate Jews to make
an
: > : > objective investigation of their origins.:
: > : i can't see how they would feel it in their best interests to redefine
: > : themselves at this stage.
: > :
: > : it would be like Christian Europe circa 1000 CE while facing Islam in
: > : the southeast and Mongols at the Urals suddenly deconstructing the
: > : Christian based mythology.
: > :
: > : one might argue that pro or con in any case they are not going to do
: > : it.
: > : even reform and reconstructionist depend on such things.
: >
: > I guess some value truth - whatever it turns out to be - more than
others
: >
: > : no root means no destiny for any people.
: >
: > IYO, what root do atheists have and what destiny or purpose do they
have?
: >
: > --
: > Bear
: >
:
: i don't view 'atheism' as anything more than a property or attribute of
: human beings, just as the RH allele present or absent indicates a blood
: type.
:
: atheism is not a culture, nor is it a religion.
Agreed, so far.
: atheists, like other humans, have an inherent religious attribute which
: manifests itself to varying degrees depending on one's encoded
: personality and exposure to whatever culture/environment.
Examples please. Also, what if the varying degree is very,very small?
: root and destiny are religious terms in a sense and belong to language
: and culture and "race" so-called if we could even define such.
:
: for example, if a people are called Lenape in North America i would
: dare say they need a unified expression of culture and art, nourished
: by a religious representation of root and destiny, which would inform
: all other areas of their human life, life for humans as defined by
: inhabiting the symbolic of language by which the blizzard of "objective
: facts" are organized and interpreted and given meaning to the group.
That merely keeps them bonded to that culture. I can't see where one needs
any particular culture or religion to have purpose in their life.
: for a basis they need ancestral soil and language to get that going i
: suppose.
I don't see that it is necessary for them to live a full life.
: a non-Lenape atheist and a Lenape atheist they have little in common
: really concerning such questions as root and destiny.
Maybe it would help if you explained how "root and destiny" are different
than purpose and why one might "need" root and destiny.
--
Bear
"Do good, for good is good to do; Spurn bribe of heaven and threat of hell."
.

User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	11 Oct 2005 11:07:07 PM

Bear wrote:

a so-called atheist will still manifest a religious attribute to one
degree or another; the religious attribute is inherent in humans and
asks the questions of existence and purpose, it is a premise which
informs his art and his history and his science.
but all the above are subsumed under the symbolic of language and
semiotics.
these are superimposed on a so-called animal physical functionality,
except that humans do not apprehend reality as animals do but actually
inhabit the intermediary symbolic world; thus our subjective
interpretation of the blizzard of facts; nevertheless facts are not
fiction.

: root and destiny are religious terms in a sense and belong to language
: and culture and "race" so-called if we could even define such.
:
: for example, if a people are called Lenape in North America i would
: dare say they need a unified expression of culture and art, nourished
: by a religious representation of root and destiny, which would inform
: all other areas of their human life, life for humans as defined by
: inhabiting the symbolic of language by which the blizzard of "objective
: facts" are organized and interpreted and given meaning to the group.

That merely keeps them bonded to that culture. I can't see where one needs
any particular culture or religion to have purpose in their life.

the religion is basically the culture since the religious aspect will
inform all other aspects, art, science, history.
the language is the basic structure and provides the boundaries of
abstract interpretations.
i place semiotics with language in the 'symbolic' we inhabit.
two or three thousand years ago you have a solar semiotic and at the
sight of it a people are immediately impacted with the power it
embodies, much like our saying "a picture is worth a thousand words."
the semiotic would be so all encompassing it would suffice to
encapsulate a culture.
but now perhaps said semiotic functions differently and arouses hatred
or even violence.
it is not that such things are 'needed' to 'have purpose in life,' they
are the essence of human life itself.

: for a basis they need ancestral soil and language to get that going i
: suppose.

I don't see that it is necessary for them to live a full life.

no ancestral soil means no root
therefore they might as well be wandering on camels in the deserts
without conception of historical cirumstance, fascinated by firearms
and clocks and watches and photographs

: a non-Lenape atheist and a Lenape atheist they have little in common
: really concerning such questions as root and destiny.

Maybe it would help if you explained how "root and destiny" are different
than purpose and why one might "need" root and destiny.

The stratum of people who do not need it need not be concerned with it
.

User: "Bear"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	11 Oct 2005 11:39:29 PM

"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: Bear wrote:
: > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > : Bear wrote:
: > : > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > : > : Bear wrote:
: > : > : > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > : > : > : Bear wrote:
: > : > : > : > http://jesusneverexisted.com/babylon.htm
: > : > : > :
: > : > : > : is a good site to inspire people to address these things.
: > : > : > : but what i have found is that a genuine "truth-seeker" will
dig
: > into
: > : > : > : the source texts in the first place.
: > : > : >
: > : > : > I agree.
: > : > : >
: > : > : > : origins of Judaism ?
: > : > : > : as i have said before, to inquire into those things eventually
: > becomes
: > : > : > : an existential inquiry for Jews.
: > : > : >
: > : > : > Hopefully a site like the above mentioned will motivate Jews to
make
: > an
: > : > : > objective investigation of their origins.:
: > : > : i can't see how they would feel it in their best interests to
redefine
: > : > : themselves at this stage.
: > : > :
: > : > : it would be like Christian Europe circa 1000 CE while facing Islam
in
: > : > : the southeast and Mongols at the Urals suddenly deconstructing the
: > : > : Christian based mythology.
: > : > :
: > : > : one might argue that pro or con in any case they are not going to
do
: > : > : it.
: > : > : even reform and reconstructionist depend on such things.
: > : >
: > : > I guess some value truth - whatever it turns out to be - more than
: > others
: > : >
: > : > : no root means no destiny for any people.
: > : >
: > : > IYO, what root do atheists have and what destiny or purpose do they
: > have?
: > : >
: > : > --
: > : > Bear
: > : >
: > :
: > : i don't view 'atheism' as anything more than a property or attribute
of
: > : human beings, just as the RH allele present or absent indicates a
blood
: > : type.
: > :
: > : atheism is not a culture, nor is it a religion.
: >
: > Agreed, so far.
: >
: > : atheists, like other humans, have an inherent religious attribute
which
: > : manifests itself to varying degrees depending on one's encoded
: > : personality and exposure to whatever culture/environment.
: >
: > Examples please. Also, what if the varying degree is very,very small?
: >
:
:
: a so-called atheist will still manifest a religious attribute to one
: degree or another; the religious attribute is inherent in humans and
: asks the questions of existence and purpose, it is a premise which
: informs his art and his history and his science.
What religious attribute precisely?
: but all the above are subsumed under the symbolic of language and
: semiotics.
:
: these are superimposed on a so-called animal physical functionality,
: except that humans do not apprehend reality as animals do but actually
: inhabit the intermediary symbolic world; thus our subjective
: interpretation of the blizzard of facts; nevertheless facts are not
: fiction.
There is no reason why "semiotics" can't change as knowledge increases.
: > : root and destiny are religious terms in a sense and belong to language
: > : and culture and "race" so-called if we could even define such.
: > :
: > : for example, if a people are called Lenape in North America i would
: > : dare say they need a unified expression of culture and art, nourished
: > : by a religious representation of root and destiny, which would inform
: > : all other areas of their human life, life for humans as defined by
: > : inhabiting the symbolic of language by which the blizzard of
"objective
: > : facts" are organized and interpreted and given meaning to the group.
: >
: > That merely keeps them bonded to that culture. I can't see where one
needs
: > any particular culture or religion to have purpose in their life.
:
: the religion is basically the culture since the religious aspect will
: inform all other aspects, art, science, history.
:
: the language is the basic structure and provides the boundaries of
: abstract interpretations.
:
: i place semiotics with language in the 'symbolic' we inhabit.
Which is subject to change as knowledge is increased.
: two or three thousand years ago you have a solar semiotic and at the
: sight of it a people are immediately impacted with the power it
: embodies, much like our saying "a picture is worth a thousand words."
: the semiotic would be so all encompassing it would suffice to
: encapsulate a culture.
:
: but now perhaps said semiotic functions differently and arouses hatred
: or even violence.
:
: it is not that such things are 'needed' to 'have purpose in life,' they
: are the essence of human life itself.
The "essence of human life" has gone throught many adjustments over the span
of time.
: > : for a basis they need ancestral soil and language to get that going i
: > : suppose.
: >
: > I don't see that it is necessary for them to live a full life.
:
: no ancestral soil means no root
:
: therefore they might as well be wandering on camels in the deserts
: without conception of historical cirumstance, fascinated by firearms
: and clocks and watches and photographs
Or fascinated with helping the world become a better place.
: > : a non-Lenape atheist and a Lenape atheist they have little in common
: > : really concerning such questions as root and destiny.
: >
: > Maybe it would help if you explained how "root and destiny" are
different
: > than purpose and why one might "need" root and destiny.
:
: The stratum of people who do not need it need not be concerned with it
Anyone with vision would not be in bondage to ancient narrow-minded roots or
to destinies that no longer pertain but would be forward looking.
--
Bear
"Do good, for good is good to do; Spurn bribe of heaven and threat of hell."
.

User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	11 Oct 2005 06:52:35 AM

I guess some value truth - whatever
it turns out to be - more than others

'truth' so-called while it must be based on forensic evidence as much
as possible is still subjective,
even the NT word for 'truth' used by the student of Philo of
Alexandria, Ioannes, is borrowed from the Greek conception, `aletheia`
which concerns the limits of human cognition and the tapestry of world
view as a representation.
since we as humans can only apprehend life not as mere animals but as a
species which inhabits a symbolic, representative world called
'language', the structure being fixed and filtered we cannot do
otherwise than to cleave to the truth according to our own culture or
people / group view, as informed by the religious answers to questions
, what we are we, who are we, what is life beyond sexual activity and
economic activities, etc.
this is why the so-called 'materialist' philosophies which are not
truly based on phenomenology but are based on a false premise that
humans apprehend life as mere animals is correctly termed 'pig
philosophy.'
'truth' is the output not the input
it is the output of a culture
if a culture is poorly informed it produces garbage and dissipates into
the nether regions
Christianity is bearing this out right now
Roman Catholicism is merely an anachronism from a Classical Culture
counter-revolution. it cannot offer a true destiny for the West since
it embraces an ersatz root.
'truth' must be based on what we call 'real facts' as much as possible
artistic representations of those facts are valid as truth
but making something up which decries the facts of the universe is
bound for failure
.

User: "Bear"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	11 Oct 2005 02:34:06 PM

"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
:> I guess some value truth - whatever
: > it turns out to be - more than others
:
: 'truth' so-called while it must be based on forensic evidence as much
: as possible is still subjective,
But as you say, it must be based on forensic evidence.
: even the NT word for 'truth' used by the student of Philo of
: Alexandria, Ioannes, is borrowed from the Greek conception, `aletheia`
: which concerns the limits of human cognition and the tapestry of world
: view as a representation.
:
: since we as humans can only apprehend life not as mere animals but as a
: species which inhabits a symbolic, representative world called
: 'language', the structure being fixed and filtered we cannot do
: otherwise than to cleave to the truth according to our own culture or
: people / group view, as informed by the religious answers to questions
: , what we are we, who are we, what is life beyond sexual activity and
: economic activities, etc.
:
:
: this is why the so-called 'materialist' philosophies which are not
: truly based on phenomenology but are based on a false premise that
: humans apprehend life as mere animals is correctly termed 'pig
: philosophy.'
:
: 'truth' is the output not the input
: it is the output of a culture
:
: if a culture is poorly informed it produces garbage and dissipates into
: the nether regions
It seems to me that a culture has been poorly informed.
: Christianity is bearing this out right now
: Roman Catholicism is merely an anachronism from a Classical Culture
: counter-revolution. it cannot offer a true destiny for the West since
: it embraces an ersatz root.
:
: 'truth' must be based on what we call 'real facts' as much as possible
: artistic representations of those facts are valid as truth
:
: but making something up which decries the facts of the universe is
: bound for failure
You seem to be making my point for me.
--
Bear
"Do good, for good is good to do; Spurn bribe of heaven and threat of hell."
.

User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	11 Oct 2005 10:51:28 PM

Bear wrote:

Of course; this will ensure the long life of the culture as it will be
consistent with the facts of the natural universe.
For example my ancestors had a solar religion with the sun as the
central character in religious festivals, alongside with the Nebra Sky
Disc they had a scientific basis completely in harmony with religion.
if one did not have time to study the material one had the festivals.
either way the focus was the sun.
and rightly so, for the sun is our life.
if somewhere off in some village somewhere there is a derivative folk
religion where some actually perceive the sun as a deity well in the
long run this cannot disturb path the culture has taken.

: even the NT word for 'truth' used by the student of Philo of
: Alexandria, Ioannes, is borrowed from the Greek conception, `aletheia`
: which concerns the limits of human cognition and the tapestry of world
: view as a representation.
:
: since we as humans can only apprehend life not as mere animals but as a
: species which inhabits a symbolic, representative world called
: 'language', the structure being fixed and filtered we cannot do
: otherwise than to cleave to the truth according to our own culture or
: people / group view, as informed by the religious answers to questions
: , what we are we, who are we, what is life beyond sexual activity and
: economic activities, etc.
:
:
: this is why the so-called 'materialist' philosophies which are not
: truly based on phenomenology but are based on a false premise that
: humans apprehend life as mere animals is correctly termed 'pig
: philosophy.'
:
: 'truth' is the output not the input
: it is the output of a culture
:
: if a culture is poorly informed it produces garbage and dissipates into
: the nether regions

It seems to me that a culture has been poorly informed.

certainly my Western culture has been mal-informed.
if we do not dump Christianity completely sometime in this century we
will soon be facing a dark age and complete loss.

: Christianity is bearing this out right now
: Roman Catholicism is merely an anachronism from a Classical Culture
: counter-revolution. it cannot offer a true destiny for the West since
: it embraces an ersatz root.
:
: 'truth' must be based on what we call 'real facts' as much as possible
: artistic representations of those facts are valid as truth
:
: but making something up which decries the facts of the universe is
: bound for failure

You seem to be making my point for me.

apparently it is only that we do not agree on certain definitions like
'religious' and 'religion'
.

User: "Bear"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	11 Oct 2005 11:24:31 PM

"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: Bear wrote:
: > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > :> I guess some value truth - whatever
: > : > it turns out to be - more than others
: > :
: > : 'truth' so-called while it must be based on forensic evidence as much
: > : as possible is still subjective,
: >
: > But as you say, it must be based on forensic evidence.
: >
:
: Of course; this will ensure the long life of the culture as it will be
: consistent with the facts of the natural universe.
:
: For example my ancestors had a solar religion with the sun as the
: central character in religious festivals, alongside with the Nebra Sky
: Disc they had a scientific basis completely in harmony with religion.
: if one did not have time to study the material one had the festivals.
: either way the focus was the sun.
:
: and rightly so, for the sun is our life.
:
: if somewhere off in some village somewhere there is a derivative folk
: religion where some actually perceive the sun as a deity well in the
: long run this cannot disturb path the culture has taken.
:
:
:
:
: > : even the NT word for 'truth' used by the student of Philo of
: > : Alexandria, Ioannes, is borrowed from the Greek conception, `aletheia`
: > : which concerns the limits of human cognition and the tapestry of world
: > : view as a representation.
: > :
: > : since we as humans can only apprehend life not as mere animals but as
a
: > : species which inhabits a symbolic, representative world called
: > : 'language', the structure being fixed and filtered we cannot do
: > : otherwise than to cleave to the truth according to our own culture or
: > : people / group view, as informed by the religious answers to questions
: > : , what we are we, who are we, what is life beyond sexual activity and
: > : economic activities, etc.
: > :
: > :
: > : this is why the so-called 'materialist' philosophies which are not
: > : truly based on phenomenology but are based on a false premise that
: > : humans apprehend life as mere animals is correctly termed 'pig
: > : philosophy.'
: > :
: > : 'truth' is the output not the input
: > : it is the output of a culture
: > :
: > : if a culture is poorly informed it produces garbage and dissipates
into
: > : the nether regions
: >
: > It seems to me that a culture has been poorly informed.
: >
:
:
: certainly my Western culture has been mal-informed.
: if we do not dump Christianity completely sometime in this century we
: will soon be facing a dark age and complete loss.
I think the same can be said for all myths, superstitions and fictitious
legends
: > : Christianity is bearing this out right now
: > : Roman Catholicism is merely an anachronism from a Classical Culture
: > : counter-revolution. it cannot offer a true destiny for the West since
: > : it embraces an ersatz root.
: > :
: > : 'truth' must be based on what we call 'real facts' as much as possible
: > : artistic representations of those facts are valid as truth
: > :
: > : but making something up which decries the facts of the universe is
: > : bound for failure
: >
: > You seem to be making my point for me.
:
: apparently it is only that we do not agree on certain definitions like
: 'religious' and 'religion'
It seems to me that we disagree on whether people can rise above backward
superstitious cultures to embrace more of truth as our cognitive faculties
increase.
--
Bear
"Do good, for good is good to do; Spurn bribe of heaven and threat of hell."
.

User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	11 Oct 2005 11:31:21 PM

Bear wrote:

"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: Bear wrote:
: > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > :> I guess some value truth - whatever
: > : > it turns out to be - more than others
: > :
: > : 'truth' so-called while it must be based on forensic evidence as much
: > : as possible is still subjective,
: >
: > But as you say, it must be based on forensic evidence.
: >
:
: Of course; this will ensure the long life of the culture as it will be
: consistent with the facts of the natural universe.
:
: For example my ancestors had a solar religion with the sun as the
: central character in religious festivals, alongside with the Nebra Sky
: Disc they had a scientific basis completely in harmony with religion.
: if one did not have time to study the material one had the festivals.
: either way the focus was the sun.
:
: and rightly so, for the sun is our life.
:
: if somewhere off in some village somewhere there is a derivative folk
: religion where some actually perceive the sun as a deity well in the
: long run this cannot disturb path the culture has taken.
:
:
:
:
: > : even the NT word for 'truth' used by the student of Philo of
: > : Alexandria, Ioannes, is borrowed from the Greek conception, `aletheia`
: > : which concerns the limits of human cognition and the tapestry of world
: > : view as a representation.
: > :
: > : since we as humans can only apprehend life not as mere animals but as
a
: > : species which inhabits a symbolic, representative world called
: > : 'language', the structure being fixed and filtered we cannot do
: > : otherwise than to cleave to the truth according to our own culture or
: > : people / group view, as informed by the religious answers to questions
: > : , what we are we, who are we, what is life beyond sexual activity and
: > : economic activities, etc.
: > :
: > :
: > : this is why the so-called 'materialist' philosophies which are not
: > : truly based on phenomenology but are based on a false premise that
: > : humans apprehend life as mere animals is correctly termed 'pig
: > : philosophy.'
: > :
: > : 'truth' is the output not the input
: > : it is the output of a culture
: > :
: > : if a culture is poorly informed it produces garbage and dissipates
into
: > : the nether regions
: >
: > It seems to me that a culture has been poorly informed.
: >
:
:
: certainly my Western culture has been mal-informed.
: if we do not dump Christianity completely sometime in this century we
: will soon be facing a dark age and complete loss.

I think the same can be said for all myths, superstitions and fictitious
legends

Not at all ; myths are artistic representations of truth and very
healthy

: > : Christianity is bearing this out right now
: > : Roman Catholicism is merely an anachronism from a Classical Culture
: > : counter-revolution. it cannot offer a true destiny for the West since
: > : it embraces an ersatz root.
: > :
: > : 'truth' must be based on what we call 'real facts' as much as possible
: > : artistic representations of those facts are valid as truth
: > :
: > : but making something up which decries the facts of the universe is
: > : bound for failure
: >
: > You seem to be making my point for me.
:
: apparently it is only that we do not agree on certain definitions like
: 'religious' and 'religion'

It seems to me that we disagree on whether people can rise above backward
superstitious cultures to embrace more of truth as our cognitive faculties
increase.

a people as a whole never do anything except as a 'mob' or 'mass'.
the question would be do a people have benevolent and informed
leadership
.

User: "Bear"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	11 Oct 2005 11:44:07 PM

"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: Bear wrote:
: > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > : Bear wrote:
: > : > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > : > :> I guess some value truth - whatever
: > : > : > it turns out to be - more than others
: > : > :
: > : > : 'truth' so-called while it must be based on forensic evidence as
much
: > : > : as possible is still subjective,
: > : >
: > : > But as you say, it must be based on forensic evidence.
: > :
: > : Of course; this will ensure the long life of the culture as it will be
: > : consistent with the facts of the natural universe.
: > :
: > : For example my ancestors had a solar religion with the sun as the
: > : central character in religious festivals, alongside with the Nebra Sky
: > : Disc they had a scientific basis completely in harmony with religion.
: > : if one did not have time to study the material one had the festivals.
: > : either way the focus was the sun.
: > :
: > : and rightly so, for the sun is our life.
: > :
: > : if somewhere off in some village somewhere there is a derivative folk
: > : religion where some actually perceive the sun as a deity well in the
: > : long run this cannot disturb path the culture has taken.
: > :
: > : > : even the NT word for 'truth' used by the student of Philo of
: > : > : Alexandria, Ioannes, is borrowed from the Greek conception,
`aletheia`
: > : > : which concerns the limits of human cognition and the tapestry of
world
: > : > : view as a representation.
: > : > :
: > : > : since we as humans can only apprehend life not as mere animals but
as
: > a
: > : > : species which inhabits a symbolic, representative world called
: > : > : 'language', the structure being fixed and filtered we cannot do
: > : > : otherwise than to cleave to the truth according to our own culture
or
: > : > : people / group view, as informed by the religious answers to
questions
: > : > : , what we are we, who are we, what is life beyond sexual activity
and
: > : > : economic activities, etc.
: > : > :
: > : > : this is why the so-called 'materialist' philosophies which are not
: > : > : truly based on phenomenology but are based on a false premise that
: > : > : humans apprehend life as mere animals is correctly termed 'pig
: > : > : philosophy.'
: > : > :
: > : > : 'truth' is the output not the input
: > : > : it is the output of a culture
: > : > :
: > : > : if a culture is poorly informed it produces garbage and dissipates
: > into
: > : > : the nether regions
: > : >
: > : > It seems to me that a culture has been poorly informed.
: > :
: > : certainly my Western culture has been mal-informed.
: > : if we do not dump Christianity completely sometime in this century we
: > : will soon be facing a dark age and complete loss.
: >
: > I think the same can be said for all myths, superstitions and fictitious
: > legends
:
: Not at all ; myths are artistic representations of truth and very
: healthy
Not according to any definition I have ever come across.
: > : > : Christianity is bearing this out right now
: > : > : Roman Catholicism is merely an anachronism from a Classical
Culture
: > : > : counter-revolution. it cannot offer a true destiny for the West
since
: > : > : it embraces an ersatz root.
: > : > :
: > : > : 'truth' must be based on what we call 'real facts' as much as
possible
: > : > : artistic representations of those facts are valid as truth
: > : > :
: > : > : but making something up which decries the facts of the universe is
: > : > : bound for failure
: > : >
: > : > You seem to be making my point for me.
: > :
: > : apparently it is only that we do not agree on certain definitions like
: > : 'religious' and 'religion'
: >
: > It seems to me that we disagree on whether people can rise above
backward
: > superstitious cultures to embrace more of truth as our cognitive
faculties
: > increase.
:
: a people as a whole never do anything except as a 'mob' or 'mass'.
:
: the question would be do a people have benevolent and informed
: leadership
Which could help them to rise above backward superstitious cultures to
embrace more of truth as our cognitive faculties increase.
--
Bear
"Do good, for good is good to do; Spurn bribe of heaven and threat of hell."
.

User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	12 Oct 2005 12:00:42 AM

Bear wrote:

"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: Bear wrote:
: > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > : Bear wrote:
: > : > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > : > :> I guess some value truth - whatever
: > : > : > it turns out to be - more than others
: > : > :
: > : > : 'truth' so-called while it must be based on forensic evidence as
much
: > : > : as possible is still subjective,
: > : >
: > : > But as you say, it must be based on forensic evidence.
: > :
: > : Of course; this will ensure the long life of the culture as it will be
: > : consistent with the facts of the natural universe.
: > :
: > : For example my ancestors had a solar religion with the sun as the
: > : central character in religious festivals, alongside with the Nebra Sky
: > : Disc they had a scientific basis completely in harmony with religion.
: > : if one did not have time to study the material one had the festivals.
: > : either way the focus was the sun.
: > :
: > : and rightly so, for the sun is our life.
: > :
: > : if somewhere off in some village somewhere there is a derivative folk
: > : religion where some actually perceive the sun as a deity well in the
: > : long run this cannot disturb path the culture has taken.
: > :
: > : > : even the NT word for 'truth' used by the student of Philo of
: > : > : Alexandria, Ioannes, is borrowed from the Greek conception,
`aletheia`
: > : > : which concerns the limits of human cognition and the tapestry of
world
: > : > : view as a representation.
: > : > :
: > : > : since we as humans can only apprehend life not as mere animals but
as
: > a
: > : > : species which inhabits a symbolic, representative world called
: > : > : 'language', the structure being fixed and filtered we cannot do
: > : > : otherwise than to cleave to the truth according to our own culture
or
: > : > : people / group view, as informed by the religious answers to
questions
: > : > : , what we are we, who are we, what is life beyond sexual activity
and
: > : > : economic activities, etc.
: > : > :
: > : > : this is why the so-called 'materialist' philosophies which are not
: > : > : truly based on phenomenology but are based on a false premise that
: > : > : humans apprehend life as mere animals is correctly termed 'pig
: > : > : philosophy.'
: > : > :
: > : > : 'truth' is the output not the input
: > : > : it is the output of a culture
: > : > :
: > : > : if a culture is poorly informed it produces garbage and dissipates
: > into
: > : > : the nether regions
: > : >
: > : > It seems to me that a culture has been poorly informed.
: > :
: > : certainly my Western culture has been mal-informed.
: > : if we do not dump Christianity completely sometime in this century we
: > : will soon be facing a dark age and complete loss.
: >
: > I think the same can be said for all myths, superstitions and fictitious
: > legends
:
: Not at all ; myths are artistic representations of truth and very
: healthy

Not according to any definition I have ever come across.

the myths are artistic representations of truth and are essential for
the culture
the superstitions well those are inescapable when you have morons or
lazy people or even good people who have poor access to the artistic
representations of truth
the fictitious legends are usually local like folk superstitions and
are marginal and do not hinder those in leadership
when you are handling children they need simplified versions of truths
they do not even want to understand in the first place,
they simply have a very minimal very very minimal religious need "why
am i here and why must i work?"
and the attention span is also very limited,
therefore simplified versions containing the essential message of the
culture will keep the machinery running.
if the machinery isn't running there is no people or culture there is a
nomad landscape without historical perspective etc. as i said earlier

: > : > : Christianity is bearing this out right now
: > : > : Roman Catholicism is merely an anachronism from a Classical
Culture
: > : > : counter-revolution. it cannot offer a true destiny for the West
since
: > : > : it embraces an ersatz root.
: > : > :
: > : > : 'truth' must be based on what we call 'real facts' as much as
possible
: > : > : artistic representations of those facts are valid as truth
: > : > :
: > : > : but making something up which decries the facts of the universe is
: > : > : bound for failure
: > : >
: > : > You seem to be making my point for me.
: > :
: > : apparently it is only that we do not agree on certain definitions like
: > : 'religious' and 'religion'
: >
: > It seems to me that we disagree on whether people can rise above
backward
: > superstitious cultures to embrace more of truth as our cognitive
faculties
: > increase.
:
: a people as a whole never do anything except as a 'mob' or 'mass'.
:
: the question would be do a people have benevolent and informed
: leadership

Which could help them to rise above backward superstitious cultures to
embrace more of truth as our cognitive faculties increase.

No, most people are quite incapable of that neither do they have desire
to do that it is ridiculous to even suggest so.
the question remains with, begins and ends with, leadership; that is
all there is.
explaining the difference between theism and religion to the average
person in almost any culture they will stare at you with dilated pupils
and go catatonic, or simply giggle and declare you insane and walk
away.
there is no alternative except to provide simplified artistic
representations with correct nomenclature and correct semiotics,
'correct' as being defined by the culture.
.

User: "Bear"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	12 Oct 2005 12:13:13 AM

"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: explaining the difference between theism and religion to the average
: person in almost any culture they will stare at you with dilated pupils
: and go catatonic, or simply giggle and declare you insane and walk
: away.
:
: there is no alternative except to provide simplified artistic
: representations with correct nomenclature and correct semiotics,
: 'correct' as being defined by the culture.
Obviously, I am more optimistic than you, and not without reason.
--
Bear
"Do good, for good is good to do; Spurn bribe of heaven and threat of hell."
.

User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	12 Oct 2005 12:27:42 AM

Bear wrote:

"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: explaining the difference between theism and religion to the average
: person in almost any culture they will stare at you with dilated pupils
: and go catatonic, or simply giggle and declare you insane and walk
: away.
:
: there is no alternative except to provide simplified artistic
: representations with correct nomenclature and correct semiotics,
: 'correct' as being defined by the culture.

Obviously, I am more optimistic than you, and not without reason.

? sorry do not follow
.

User: "Bear"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	12 Oct 2005 12:34:52 AM

"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: Bear wrote:
: > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > : explaining the difference between theism and religion to the average
: > : person in almost any culture they will stare at you with dilated
pupils
: > : and go catatonic, or simply giggle and declare you insane and walk
: > : away.
: > :
: > : there is no alternative except to provide simplified artistic
: > : representations with correct nomenclature and correct semiotics,
: > : 'correct' as being defined by the culture.
: >
: > Obviously, I am more optimistic than you, and not without reason.
:
: ? sorry do not follow
I think that if we could loose ourselves from ancient superstitions we could
move forward.
--
Bear
"Do good, for good is good to do; Spurn bribe of heaven and threat of hell."
.

User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	12 Oct 2005 01:29:03 AM

Bear wrote:

"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: Bear wrote:
: > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > : explaining the difference between theism and religion to the average
: > : person in almost any culture they will stare at you with dilated
pupils
: > : and go catatonic, or simply giggle and declare you insane and walk
: > : away.
: > :
: > : there is no alternative except to provide simplified artistic
: > : representations with correct nomenclature and correct semiotics,
: > : 'correct' as being defined by the culture.
: >
: > Obviously, I am more optimistic than you, and not without reason.
:
: ? sorry do not follow

I think that if we could loose ourselves from ancient superstitions we could
move forward.

"move forward" well that needs much definition: who is moving forward,
what is defined as forward, etc
"ancient superstitions," that in no way applies to the myths which have
informed the higher cultures, those myths were artistic representations
of the truths of those cultures.
but regarding 'superstitions' as i have already stated, if one views a
people as represented on a bell curve which bulges in the center and
shallows on either side, there will always be people inclined toward
superstitious interpretations.
you might minimize that and slide the mean of the scale more to one
side or the other, but exerting energy toward eradicating superstition,
this is much like the 'war on drugs' or 'war on terror' or 'war on
poverty' it is ridiculous, grasping at air, even futile or
self-destructive
you sound like perhaps you see humanity as a whole on the same
communication frequency or seeing humanity as being working toward a
common objective, in a kind of linear historical continuum,
whereas i view humans as basically either part of a particular culture
with its own growth and development and informed by its own religious
interpretations [as was solar focused Europe four thousand years ago]
or i see humans as basically savages or at best bedouin not having more
than minimal human attributes and in relation to humans of higher
cultures barely distinguishable from animals.
i reject universal applications of these things including the moral
premise of such suggestions [that all mankind be enlightened et cetera]
as nonsense.
the Greeks and the Classical Culture would have had little discourse
without an economy dependent on slavery. Liberal 20th century would
say "it is ironic that democracy was born in a setting of slavery" etc
what ridiculous 20th century propaganda it is precisely because the
Classical Greeks and Romans could stratify society that they would
produce and create, and they would be appalled at the modern
interpretation of democracy.
.

User: "Bear"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	12 Oct 2005 01:43:59 AM

"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: Bear wrote:
: > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > : Bear wrote:
: > : > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > : > : explaining the difference between theism and religion to the
average
: > : > : person in almost any culture they will stare at you with dilated
: > pupils
: > : > : and go catatonic, or simply giggle and declare you insane and walk
: > : > : away.
: > : > :
: > : > : there is no alternative except to provide simplified artistic
: > : > : representations with correct nomenclature and correct semiotics,
: > : > : 'correct' as being defined by the culture.
: > : >
: > : > Obviously, I am more optimistic than you, and not without reason.
: > :
: > : ? sorry do not follow
: >
: > I think that if we could loose ourselves from ancient superstitions we
could
: > move forward.
:
: "move forward" well that needs much definition: who is moving forward,
: what is defined as forward, etc
It has been going on for millenia.
: "ancient superstitions," that in no way applies to the myths which have
: informed the higher cultures, those myths were artistic representations
: of the truths of those cultures.
Please provide some insightful examples of these "truths".
: but regarding 'superstitions' as i have already stated, if one views a
: people as represented on a bell curve which bulges in the center and
: shallows on either side, there will always be people inclined toward
: superstitious interpretations.
That doesn't mean the majority of the world's population has to be so.
: you might minimize that and slide the mean of the scale more to one
: side or the other, but exerting energy toward eradicating superstition,
: this is much like the 'war on drugs' or 'war on terror' or 'war on
: poverty' it is ridiculous, grasping at air, even futile or
: self-destructive
As I said, I am more optimistic than you in this area.
: you sound like perhaps you see humanity as a whole on the same
: communication frequency or seeing humanity as being working toward a
: common objective, in a kind of linear historical continuum,
I see it as a possibility when arcane superstitions are minimized.
: whereas i view humans as basically either part of a particular culture
: with its own growth and development and informed by its own religious
: interpretations [as was solar focused Europe four thousand years ago]
: or i see humans as basically savages or at best bedouin not having more
: than minimal human attributes and in relation to humans of higher
: cultures barely distinguishable from animals.
I think history has shown differently. You insinuate the same when you say,
"as *was* solar focused Europe *four thousand years ago*. Would you not
agree that that isn't the case currently?
: i reject universal applications of these things including the moral
: premise of such suggestions [that all mankind be enlightened et cetera]
: as nonsense.
Thank you for your opinion, but I disagree.
: the Greeks and the Classical Culture would have had little discourse
: without an economy dependent on slavery. Liberal 20th century would
: say "it is ironic that democracy was born in a setting of slavery" etc
: what ridiculous 20th century propaganda it is precisely because the
: Classical Greeks and Romans could stratify society that they would
: produce and create, and they would be appalled at the modern
: interpretation of democracy.
Again you show that you believe there has been changes.
--
Bear
"Do good, for good is good to do; Spurn bribe of heaven and threat of hell."
.

User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	12 Oct 2005 02:21:42 AM

Bear wrote:

the pattern is cyclical, in insular cultures
when two developed cultures collide in a conflict of interest then
there is war, one or both are extinguished or dispersed or crippled
leading to dispersal
it is not a linear continuum as taught to us in 20th century "social
studies" [which replaced 'history']

: "ancient superstitions," that in no way applies to the myths which have
: informed the higher cultures, those myths were artistic representations
: of the truths of those cultures.

Please provide some insightful examples of these "truths".

there are hundreds of examples some better than others
since we are both familiar with the semitic text i would cite that as
holding the interpretation of the truth of that culture, its morality,
its duties, its heirarchy of standards, etc.
or turn to Nordic myths for a different viewpoint, where we have
ragnarok and destruction but then everything is recycled and renewed.
truth is ultimately *penultimate* in the first place and in the second
it is always particular to a culture when represented artistically

: but regarding 'superstitions' as i have already stated, if one views a
: people as represented on a bell curve which bulges in the center and
: shallows on either side, there will always be people inclined toward
: superstitious interpretations.

That doesn't mean the majority of the world's population has to be so.

no it has always been this way according to the data
most of the earth is not in leadership position
and in any case what you are offering is also direction they cannot
come into tune with your situation independently
furthermore, again, i disagree with the categorization of the "world's
population" as having the slightest meaning in this context since the
world is segmented and for the most part mutually unintelligible .

: you might minimize that and slide the mean of the scale more to one
: side or the other, but exerting energy toward eradicating superstition,
: this is much like the 'war on drugs' or 'war on terror' or 'war on
: poverty' it is ridiculous, grasping at air, even futile or
: self-destructive

As I said, I am more optimistic than you in this area.

i would see what you hope to occur as a type of destruction

: you sound like perhaps you see humanity as a whole on the same
: communication frequency or seeing humanity as being working toward a
: common objective, in a kind of linear historical continuum,

I see it as a possibility when arcane superstitions are minimized.

so do i and i have said so all along, but the most that can be achieved
is correct nomenclature and correct semiotics
and that in itself would be miraculous

: whereas i view humans as basically either part of a particular culture
: with its own growth and development and informed by its own religious
: interpretations [as was solar focused Europe four thousand years ago]
: or i see humans as basically savages or at best bedouin not having more
: than minimal human attributes and in relation to humans of higher
: cultures barely distinguishable from animals.

I think history has shown differently. You insinuate the same when you say,
"as *was* solar focused Europe *four thousand years ago*. Would you not
agree that that isn't the case currently?

of course that is the whole problem for the West in the first place,
yes exactly

: i reject universal applications of these things including the moral
: premise of such suggestions [that all mankind be enlightened et cetera]
: as nonsense.

Thank you for your opinion, but I disagree.

why would we want all of mankind to be "the same" ?
it is not natural, it defies reason, it defies health and growth, it is
not rational
the old biddies in the village who think the solar semiotic represents
a deity have a role to play as well.
life cannot be without struggle in any case.
not darwinian hypothesis, merely the inherent context

: the Greeks and the Classical Culture would have had little discourse
: without an economy dependent on slavery. Liberal 20th century would
: say "it is ironic that democracy was born in a setting of slavery" etc
: what ridiculous 20th century propaganda it is precisely because the
: Classical Greeks and Romans could stratify society that they would
: produce and create, and they would be appalled at the modern
: interpretation of democracy.

Again you show that you believe there has been changes.

Yes of course i have been saying that and if i failed to make that
clear i apologize
the change in the above example of course would be their sotted
condition and disintegration and destruction.
democracy as reinterpreted more than a thousand years later in the west
injected such nonsense as "refinement of the [vote]" etc and then in
the 20th century was redefined further.
that is what happens when nomenclature crosses cultures, it acquires
endless distortion
likewise when external nomenclature enters a culture it manifests
itself as noise or distortion
.

User: "Bear"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	12 Oct 2005 02:44:35 AM

"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: Bear wrote:
: > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > : Bear wrote:
: > : > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > : > : Bear wrote:
: > : > : > "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
: > : > : > : explaining the difference between theism and religion to the
: > average
: > : > : > : person in almost any culture they will stare at you with
dilated
: > : > pupils
: > : > : > : and go catatonic, or simply giggle and declare you insane and
walk
: > : > : > : away.
: > : > : > :
: > : > : > : there is no alternative except to provide simplified artistic
: > : > : > : representations with correct nomenclature and correct
semiotics,
: > : > : > : 'correct' as being defined by the culture.
: > : > : >
: > : > : > Obviously, I am more optimistic than you, and not without
reason.
: > : > :
: > : > : ? sorry do not follow
: > : >
: > : > I think that if we could loose ourselves from ancient superstitions
we
: > could
: > : > move forward.
: > :
: > : "move forward" well that needs much definition: who is moving forward,
: > : what is defined as forward, etc
: >
: > It has been going on for millenia.
:
: the pattern is cyclical, in insular cultures
:
: when two developed cultures collide in a conflict of interest then
: there is war, one or both are extinguished or dispersed or crippled
: leading to dispersal
:
: it is not a linear continuum as taught to us in 20th century "social
: studies" [which replaced 'history']
Maybe not completely, but important aspects of is are.
: > : "ancient superstitions," that in no way applies to the myths which
have
: > : informed the higher cultures, those myths were artistic
representations
: > : of the truths of those cultures.
: >
: > Please provide some insightful examples of these "truths".
:
: there are hundreds of examples some better than others
:
: since we are both familiar with the semitic text i would cite that as
: holding the interpretation of the truth of that culture, its morality,
: its duties, its heirarchy of standards, etc.
:
: or turn to Nordic myths for a different viewpoint, where we have
: ragnarok and destruction but then everything is recycled and renewed.
I disagree that those are "truth".
: truth is ultimately *penultimate* in the first place and in the second
: it is always particular to a culture when represented artistically
A piece of art is merely a representation of reality; it is not reality. In
the same way cultural is merely some degree of truth; it is not truth.
: > : but regarding 'superstitions' as i have already stated, if one views a
: > : people as represented on a bell curve which bulges in the center and
: > : shallows on either side, there will always be people inclined toward
: > : superstitious interpretations.
: >
: > That doesn't mean the majority of the world's population has to be so.
:
: no it has always been this way according to the data
:
: most of the earth is not in leadership position
: and in any case what you are offering is also direction they cannot
: come into tune with your situation independently
:
: furthermore, again, i disagree with the categorization of the "world's
: population" as having the slightest meaning in this context since the
: world is segmented and for the most part mutually unintelligible .
Held back by silly superstitions, mystical myths and ludicrous legends.
: > : you might minimize that and slide the mean of the scale more to one
: > : side or the other, but exerting energy toward eradicating
superstition,
: > : this is much like the 'war on drugs' or 'war on terror' or 'war on
: > : poverty' it is ridiculous, grasping at air, even futile or
: > : self-destructive
: >
: > As I said, I am more optimistic than you in this area.
:
: i would see what you hope to occur as a type of destruction
How so?
: > : you sound like perhaps you see humanity as a whole on the same
: > : communication frequency or seeing humanity as being working toward a
: > : common objective, in a kind of linear historical continuum,
: >
: > I see it as a possibility when arcane superstitions are minimized.
:
: so do i and i have said so all along, but the most that can be achieved
: is correct nomenclature and correct semiotics
Nomenclature and semiotics change with increases in knowledge.
: and that in itself would be miraculous
Maybe, maybe not.
: > : whereas i view humans as basically either part of a particular culture
: > : with its own growth and development and informed by its own religious
: > : interpretations [as was solar focused Europe four thousand years ago]
: > : or i see humans as basically savages or at best bedouin not having
more
: > : than minimal human attributes and in relation to humans of higher
: > : cultures barely distinguishable from animals.
: >
: > I think history has shown differently. You insinuate the same when you
say,
: > "as *was* solar focused Europe *four thousand years ago*. Would you not
: > agree that that isn't the case currently?
:
: of course that is the whole problem for the West in the first place,
: yes exactly
See, culture have changed due to an increase in knowledge of reality
(truth).
: > : i reject universal applications of these things including the moral
: > : premise of such suggestions [that all mankind be enlightened et
cetera]
: > : as nonsense.
: >
: > Thank you for your opinion, but I disagree.
:
: why would we want all of mankind to be "the same"?
Why not?
: it is not natural, it defies reason, it defies health and growth, it is
: not rational
It sure is rational.
: the old biddies in the village who think the solar semiotic represents
: a deity have a role to play as well.
What role is that?
: life cannot be without struggle in any case.
There's plenty of struggle without the bigotry caused by ancient
superstitions.
: not darwinian hypothesis, merely the inherent context
:
: > : the Greeks and the Classical Culture would have had little discourse
: > : without an economy dependent on slavery. Liberal 20th century would
: > : say "it is ironic that democracy was born in a setting of slavery" etc
: > : what ridiculous 20th century propaganda it is precisely because the
: > : Classical Greeks and Romans could stratify society that they would
: > : produce and create, and they would be appalled at the modern
: > : interpretation of democracy.
: >
: > Again you show that you believe there has been changes.
:
: Yes of course i have been saying that and if i failed to make that
: clear i apologize
It seems like you think those changes, especially those caused by an
increase in knowledge of reality (truth) are not good.
: the change in the above example of course would be their sotted
: condition and disintegration and destruction.
:
: democracy as reinterpreted more than a thousand years later in the west
: injected such nonsense as "refinement of the [vote]" etc and then in
: the 20th century was redefined further.
:
: that is what happens when nomenclature crosses cultures, it acquires
: endless distortion
:
: likewise when external nomenclature enters a culture it manifests
: itself as noise or distortion
Only to those that are close-minded about learning about reality (truth).
--
Bear
"Do good, for good is good to do; Spurn bribe of heaven and threat of hell."
.

User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
Title: Re: Babylon Nurtures the Jewish Priesthood	12 Oct 2005 03:53:23 AM

Bear wrote:

i must disagree since dark ages as we call them put the dispersed
people back at square one
for example, perhaps not an ideal example, if or when at some stage the
internet comes down and various regions lose communication and pass
through a dark age it is not likely that in the future someone
discovering a magnetic tape or a hard disk will be able to decipher its
contents.
it is possible but not likely.
people will be starting from scratch as they say

: > : "ancient superstitions," that in no way applies to the myths which
have
: > : informed the higher cultures, those myths were artistic
representations
: > : of the truths of those cultures.
: >
: > Please provide some insightful examples of these "truths".
:
: there are hundreds of examples some better than others
:
: since we are both familiar with the semitic text i would cite that as
: holding the interpretation of the truth of that culture, its morality,
: its duties, its heirarchy of standards, etc.
:
: or turn to Nordic myths for a different viewpoint, where we have
: ragnarok and destruction but then everything is recycled and renewed.

I disagree that those are "truth".

only because you misinterpret them as representing literal physical
cosmologies

: truth is ultimately *penultimate* in the first place and in the second
: it is always particular to a culture when represented artistically

A piece of art is merely a representation of reality; it is not reality. In
the same way cultural is merely some degree of truth; it is not truth.

: > : but regarding 'superstitions' as i have already stated, if one views a
: > : people as represented on a bell curve which bulges in the center and
: > : shallows on either side, there will always be people inclined toward
: > : superstitious interpretations.
: >
: > That doesn't mean the majority of the world's population has to be so.
:
: no it has always been this way according to the data
:
: most of the earth is not in leadership position
: and in any case what you are offering is also direction they cannot
: come into tune with your situation independently
:
: furthermore, again, i disagree with the categorization of the "world's
: population" as having the slightest meaning in this context since the
: world is segmented and for the most part mutually unintelligible .

Held back by silly superstitions, mystical myths and ludicrous legends.

not at all ; "held back" or rather "retarded" can only be in
relationship situation.
who is held back in relation to whom or what is dependent on a
particular and limited scope or circumstance.
priests in Egypt were not retarded nor were brahmins in ancient India
but some other strata of their contemporary society might be in 21st
century hindsight considered to have been "retarded" by the former
groups. but that is all relative since the height of achievement of
those former groups was dependent on the contemporary situation and the
fact that there was a simplified world view for the "common man" which
was congruent and supportive of the advancement of the culture as a
whole.
there is no moral issue to debate, there is no means by which to
evaluate their alleged retardation since there is nothing to which we
can reasonably relate such alleged retardation.
if the entire society could have possibly known the things the brahmins
or egyptian priests knew there would have been one might say a "massive
retardation"
they might have thought it better to focus on entertainment
like the West does now

: > : you might minimize that and slide the mean of the scale more to one
: > : side or the other, but exerting energy toward eradicating
superstition,
: > : this is much like the 'war on drugs' or 'war on terror' or 'war on
: > : poverty' it is ridiculous, grasping at air, even futile or
: > : self-destructive
: >
: > As I said, I am more optimistic than you in this area.
:
: i would see what you hope to occur as a type of destruction

How so?

because it follows the formula of trying to "make things equal" to
describe in a general way

: > : you sound like perhaps you see humanity as a whole on the same
: > : communication frequency or seeing humanity as being working toward a
: > : common objective, in a kind of linear historical continuum,
: >
: > I see it as a possibility when arcane superstitions are minimized.
:
: so do i and i have said so all along, but the most that can be achieved
: is correct nomenclature and correct semiotics

Nomenclature and semiotics change with increases in knowledge.

not an increase in knowledge at all ; a modification in interpretation

: and that in itself would be miraculous

Maybe, maybe not.

then perhaps you do not understand the critical importance of
nomenclature and semiotics
they are most critical

: > : whereas i view humans as basically either part of a particular culture
: > : with its own growth and development and informed by its own religious
: > : interpretations [as was solar focused Europe four thousand years ago]
: > : or i see humans as basically savages or at best bedouin not having
more
: > : than minimal human attributes and in relation to humans of higher
: > : cultures barely distinguishable from animals.
: >
: > I think history has shown differently. You insinuate the same when you
say,
: > "as *was* solar focused Europe *four thousand years ago*. Would you not
: > agree that that isn't the case currently?
:
: of course that is the whole problem for the West in the first place,
: yes exactly

See, culture have changed due to an increase in knowledge of reality
(truth).

no not at all, here we have a confusion of an apprehension of reality
with a modification in interpretation of that reality.
changing the solar semiotic of 1600 BCE to a cross during the dark ages
and medieval period in europe is not an increase in knowledge except
that it adds a new interpretation which eventually castigates the
earlier.
and in the strictest sense adding knowledge is inescapable; 'knowledge'
and 'data' continually pour into the senses and then our symbolic will
organize.
but now i see what you are proposing is a very simplified solution to
what you see as a very simple problem.
and the problem is not never was 'religion' since that is an
inescapable attribute of humans which informs the entirety of our
activities

: > : i reject universal applications of these things including the moral
: > : premise of such suggestions [that all mankind be enlightened et
cetera]
: > : as nonsense.
: >
: > Thank you for your opinion, but I disagree.
:
: why would we want all of mankind to be "the same"?

Why not?

because we aren't nor will we be nor do we desire to be nor can we be
etc

: it is not natural, it defies reason, it defies health and growth, it is
: not rational

It sure is rational.

No, even from a purely materialist so-called philosophical viewpoint
you have destroyed the variety and innovation by condemning us to a
requisite acceptance of oversimplified premises and definitions

: the old biddies in the village who think the solar semiotic represents
: a deity have a role to play as well.

What role is that?

do not underestimate the worth of a superstitious old woman who helps
things move along one way or the other.

: life cannot be without struggle in any case.

There's plenty of struggle without the bigotry caused by ancient
superstitions.

myths are not superstitions they are the artistic representations of
truths particular to culture and historical circumstance
superstitions in the villages so long as they do not impact overall
policy well consider them the spice of life

: not darwinian hypothesis, merely the inherent context
:
: > : the Greeks and the Classical Culture would have had little discourse
: > : without an economy dependent on slavery. Liberal 20th century would
: > : say "it is ironic that democracy was born in a setting of slavery" etc
: > : what ridiculous 20th century propaganda it is precisely because the
: > : Classical Greeks and Romans could stratify society that they would
: > : produce and create, and they would be appalled at the modern
: > : interpretation of democracy.
: >
: > Again you show that you believe there has been changes.
:
: Yes of course i have been saying that and if i failed to make that
: clear i apologize

It seems like you think those changes, especially those caused by an
increase in knowledge of reality (truth) are not good.

again one is confusing modifications of nomenclature or semiotics as
"increases in knowledge"
i dare say the society in europe 1600 BCE would not have been surprised
that the earth circumnavigates the sun but with an anachronistic
residual distortion like the church they are at a loss what to do with
this.

: the change in the above example of course would be their sotted
: condition and disintegration and destruction.
:
: democracy as reinterpreted more than a thousand years later in the west
: injected such nonsense as "refinement of the [vote]" etc and then in
: the 20th century was redefined further.
:
: that is what happens when nomenclature crosses cultures, it acquires
: endless distortion
:
: likewise when external nomenclature enters a culture it manifests
: itself as noise or distortion

Only to those that are close-minded about learning about reality (truth).

Not at all.
One example of an "increase in knowledge" according to what i
understand you to say might be to take a Lenape semiotic and
reinterpret it as a symbol of hate or decadence.
distortion, not health.
had knowledge been "increased?" i suppose so.
nomenclature and semiotics need to be correct prior to unloading
massive amounts data for interpretation.
.