| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"buckeye" |
| Date: |
13 Dec 2007 05:26:10 AM |
| Object: |
Background of Faith-based Initiatives |
Faith-Based Charities Unconstitutional, says the father of the Constitution
and Bill of Rights
http://candst.tripod.com/faith.htm
Background of Faith-based Initiatives
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/churchandstate2.html
Faith-based Initiatives
Some recent developments have added fuel to the debate about how separate
church and state should actually be. Central to these changes has been
legislation permitting federal dollars to be awarded to religious
institutions. Learn more about these recent developments below.
Welfare Reform Act and Ashcroft Amendment (1996)
The 1996 Welfare Reform Act, signed by President Clinton, enabled some
houses of worship to receive tax dollars for delivery of social services,
due to an amendment sponsored by then Senator, now Attorney General, John
Ashcroft. Prior to that year, government funds could go to religious groups
for social services, but the institutions were required to have separate,
secular nonprofit entities to administer the programs. With the "charitable
choice" provision of the 1996 act, religious charities were permitted to
compete for government welfare dollars.
Some groups fear that the ramifications of adding religious groups to the
federal welfare equation are far-reaching. The National Gay and Lesbian
Task Force complains that the 1996 Welfare Act also "allowed religious
institutions to discriminate in their hiring practices on the basis of
religious belief, gender, race and ethnicity, and other factors. Moreover,
the 1996 law eliminated safeguards that were intended to prevent recipients
from being subjected to unwanted proselytizing, the display of large
religious icons in areas where services were provided and other forms of
captive-audience religious expression."
Faith-Based Initiatives
In January 2001, President Bush announced the establishment of the White
House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives and Centers for
Faith-Based and Community Initiatives in initially five, and later seven
Cabinet agencies: the Departments of Justice, Agriculture, Labor, Health
and Human Services, Housing and Urban Development, and Education and the
Agency for International Development.
The Office was formed to lead a "'determined attack on need' by
strengthening and expanding the role of faith-based and community
organizations in addressing the nation's social problems. The President
envisions a faith-friendly public square where faith-based organizations
can compete equally with other groups to provide government or
privately-funded services."
Critics say that Bush's faith-based initiative doesn't have clear enough
protections against prosleytizing and discrimination in hiring. But it's
not just Republicans who've thought that taxpayers' money should be given
to religious organizations to run social welfare programs. In fact, during
his campaign for the presidency, then Vice President Al Gore proposed doing
something very similar.
Americans United for Separation of Church and State (AU) strongly oppose
giving broad-based funding to churches and other religious groups. Charging
that faith-based initiatives violate the separation of church and state in
various ways, AU refers to such initiatives as "Taxpayer Funded Religious
Discrimination."
Charity Aid, Recovery, and Empowerment (CARE) Act
A version of this bill, seeking to offer tax incentives to encourage
charitable giving, sparked debate in the Senate in 2002 but was not passed
by the time Congress adjourned for the year. On April 9, 2003, the Senate
passed a modified version of the bill, which omitted the contested language
that would have allowed faith-based groups to maintain their religious
character while receiving federal funds for their social service programs.
The final fate of this legislation has yet to be determined.
******************************************************************************
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
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| User: "Bill M" |
|
| Title: Re: Background of Faith-based Initiatives |
13 Dec 2007 10:55:34 AM |
|
|
There should never be 'faith based' anything supported by our government
which represents hundreds of DIFFERENT faiths!
Keep religion out of government which the founding founders insisted on.
"buckeye" <buckeyeelo@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:ul52m3pqg5vqtvc1s9sl6sfc4v51431jqm@4ax.com...
Faith-Based Charities Unconstitutional, says the father of the
Constitution
and Bill of Rights
http://candst.tripod.com/faith.htm
Background of Faith-based Initiatives
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/churchandstate2.html
Faith-based Initiatives
Some recent developments have added fuel to the debate about how separate
church and state should actually be. Central to these changes has been
legislation permitting federal dollars to be awarded to religious
institutions. Learn more about these recent developments below.
Welfare Reform Act and Ashcroft Amendment (1996)
The 1996 Welfare Reform Act, signed by President Clinton, enabled some
houses of worship to receive tax dollars for delivery of social services,
due to an amendment sponsored by then Senator, now Attorney General, John
Ashcroft. Prior to that year, government funds could go to religious
groups
for social services, but the institutions were required to have separate,
secular nonprofit entities to administer the programs. With the
"charitable
choice" provision of the 1996 act, religious charities were permitted to
compete for government welfare dollars.
Some groups fear that the ramifications of adding religious groups to the
federal welfare equation are far-reaching. The National Gay and Lesbian
Task Force complains that the 1996 Welfare Act also "allowed religious
institutions to discriminate in their hiring practices on the basis of
religious belief, gender, race and ethnicity, and other factors. Moreover,
the 1996 law eliminated safeguards that were intended to prevent
recipients
from being subjected to unwanted proselytizing, the display of large
religious icons in areas where services were provided and other forms of
captive-audience religious expression."
Faith-Based Initiatives
In January 2001, President Bush announced the establishment of the White
House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives and Centers for
Faith-Based and Community Initiatives in initially five, and later seven
Cabinet agencies: the Departments of Justice, Agriculture, Labor, Health
and Human Services, Housing and Urban Development, and Education and the
Agency for International Development.
The Office was formed to lead a "'determined attack on need' by
strengthening and expanding the role of faith-based and community
organizations in addressing the nation's social problems. The President
envisions a faith-friendly public square where faith-based organizations
can compete equally with other groups to provide government or
privately-funded services."
Critics say that Bush's faith-based initiative doesn't have clear enough
protections against prosleytizing and discrimination in hiring. But it's
not just Republicans who've thought that taxpayers' money should be given
to religious organizations to run social welfare programs. In fact, during
his campaign for the presidency, then Vice President Al Gore proposed
doing
something very similar.
Americans United for Separation of Church and State (AU) strongly oppose
giving broad-based funding to churches and other religious groups.
Charging
that faith-based initiatives violate the separation of church and state in
various ways, AU refers to such initiatives as "Taxpayer Funded Religious
Discrimination."
Charity Aid, Recovery, and Empowerment (CARE) Act
A version of this bill, seeking to offer tax incentives to encourage
charitable giving, sparked debate in the Senate in 2002 but was not passed
by the time Congress adjourned for the year. On April 9, 2003, the Senate
passed a modified version of the bill, which omitted the contested
language
that would have allowed faith-based groups to maintain their religious
character while receiving federal funds for their social service programs.
The final fate of this legislation has yet to be determined.
******************************************************************************
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why
"a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v.
Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
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| User: "Jeff Strickland" |
|
| Title: Re: Background of Faith-based Initiatives |
14 Dec 2007 12:44:56 PM |
|
|
How come any faith that does charity work can not get help through
government grants?
If there is a need in the community, and government seeks to fill that need,
and a faith based organization already addresses that need, what's wrong
with government leveraging the private citizen's effort they already seek to
meet? People needing help already flock to religious houses of worship of
any faith for help and support, and private citizens are already in place
providing the same help and support that government seeks to provide. Houses
of faith already have structures in place to reach out to the community, and
these structures run less expensively and more efficiently than anything
government could ever hope to cobble together.
One could come along and sue the government if ONLY one faith was given
grants to address matters of public concern -- helping the homeless for
example -- and that would be a fair complaint. But if there was any
organization in any community that met reasonable criteria that could be
evenly applied to any faith, why not leverage the good will of society by
giving a government grant to extendn that good will further than it might
otherwise extend? If the Watch Dogs wanted to keep tabs on graft and
corruption of the government funds, then that would be a good thing. But,
graft and corruption is not unique to faith based programs, indeed the
private sector or government contractors have stolen more through government
programs than any faith based group ever has. If the Watch Dogs came up with
a complaiint that Religion A gets all of the grants and Religion B gets
none, then we have "separation" issues that need to be addressed because if
such a thing is allowed to continue then a de facto government religion is
then established.
The problem for government and faith comes when one faith is given different
treatment than another. (For the record, the problem seems to arise when
government involves Christians, but not other faiths, but I digress.) I
think that one needs to look at the goal of the handout, and determing if
the goal is good or not from a public policy perspective -- where the public
policy is to provide charitible work to those that need charity. If the goal
of charity is met and can be applied without faith based considerations,
then I see no problem with faith based charity. If there is no other outlet
for the charity, then government can set up shop and pass it out on its own,
but there are thousands of charitable organizations in operation that can
promote government policy without regard to their faith, or the lack of it.
"Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:TTh8j.14560$k27.711@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
There should never be 'faith based' anything supported by our government
which represents hundreds of DIFFERENT faiths!
Keep religion out of government which the founding founders insisted on.
.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
|
| Title: Re: Background of Faith-based Initiatives |
14 Dec 2007 04:50:32 PM |
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"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@verizon.net>
How come any faith that does charity work can not get help through
government grants?
They can. They do. Bunches of it. By virtue of a Bushian Executive Order.
Cuts down on all that annoying Constitutional messiness that way.
In fact, ol' Pat hisownself was quite the clearing-house middleman, distributing
Federal aid among faith-based organizations for a while there.
-- cary
.
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| User: "Jeff Strickland" |
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| Title: Re: Background of Faith-based Initiatives |
14 Dec 2007 07:23:18 PM |
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"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:fjv1bo$eas$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@verizon.net>
How come any faith that does charity work can not get help through
government grants?
They can. They do. Bunches of it. By virtue of a Bushian Executive
Order.
Cuts down on all that annoying Constitutional messiness that way.
In fact, ol' Pat hisownself was quite the clearing-house middleman,
distributing
Federal aid among faith-based organizations for a while there.
Okay, that speaks mildly of the graft and corruption point I tried to make
earlier. If there is any funny business going on, then shut it down, but do
not scrap faith based assistance just because it is faith based -- as
Buckeye would have them do.
I am all for going after the graft and corruption that swirls about pretty
much any and all government programs, and I would suggest that faith based
graft and corruption is no different than any other. I would also suggest
that there are plenty of faith based programs that can benefit the
multitudes of needy, and they do it without the slightest hint of graft or
corruption. If one wants to curtail graft and corruption, then fine, but
let's not toss out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak. To shut down a
program just because there is a faith based quality to it is stupid, let's
shut the program down because it does not work or because somebody is
stealing it blind.
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
|
| Title: Re: Background of Faith-based Initiatives |
15 Dec 2007 09:02:57 AM |
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"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@verizon.net> wrote:
Okay, that speaks mildly of the graft and corruption point I tried to make
earlier. If there is any funny business going on, then shut it down, but do
not scrap faith based assistance just because it is faith based -- as
Buckeye would have them do.
It is much harder to shut down "funny business" that takes place under
the guise of religion, because the government is strongly restricted
against violating religious freedom.
See the ongoing Church of Scientology battles for a good example.
I am all for going after the graft and corruption that swirls about pretty
much any and all government programs, and I would suggest that faith based
graft and corruption is no different than any other.
It is, in that faith based organizations have the power, using their
freedoms, to keep the government (and the public) from accessing
information that might tend to incriminate (or at least embarrass)
them.
I would also suggest
that there are plenty of faith based programs that can benefit the
multitudes of needy, and they do it without the slightest hint of graft or
corruption.
And they do so, and they get government money.
Only when they HIGHLIGHT their faith-based nature, and especially when
they include religious elements in their charitable programs, does it
tend to get controversial.
If one wants to curtail graft and corruption, then fine, but
let's not toss out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak. To shut down a
program just because there is a faith based quality to it is stupid,
Nobody is "shutting down programs". It restricts one form of income -
state money.
let's shut the program down because it does not work or because somebody is
stealing it blind.
The government does not have the power to investigate whether a
religious organization "does not work", and has very limited powers to
determine whether someone is "stealing it blind".
lojbab
.
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| User: "Michael" |
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| Title: Re: Background of Faith-based Initiatives |
15 Dec 2007 02:43:46 PM |
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On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 10:02:57 -0500, Bob LeChevalier wrote:
The government does not have the power to investigate whether a
religious organization "does not work", and has very limited powers to
determine whether someone is "stealing it blind".
It does if the church accepts state money. That is one reason why the
Mormons do not (so far as I know) accept government money; the government
has been trying for 150 years to pry open the finances of the Mormons.
Giving state money to churches is a means to infiltrate those churches, no
different than exists in Europe where churches do not speak against the
government on whom their existence depends.
The problem you cite is really more of poor accounting by many or most
churches. The church might even be glad to show their books to the
government if only they bothered to keep books.
.
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| User: "Michael" |
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| Title: Re: Background of Faith-based Initiatives |
15 Dec 2007 02:22:31 PM |
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On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 16:55:34 +0000, Bill M wrote:
There should never be 'faith based' anything supported by our government
which represents hundreds of DIFFERENT faiths!
Keep religion out of government which the founding founders insisted on.
Easy to say, impossible to do. The problem faced by government is that
government is simply not equipped for charity. Government has neither the
motivation nor practice for charity. Charity *is* a religious concept and
it flies in the face of Darwinism.
Darwinism, the holy grail of atheism, says, "You snooze, you lose!"
Therefore, if there is to be charity in the United States, you will find a
church involved or at the very least some kind of religious principle (ie,
Salvation Army).
.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Background of Faith-based Initiatives |
17 Dec 2007 10:39:51 AM |
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In article <pan.2007.12.15.20.22.30.94699@orneveien.org> Michael <newsuser2@orneveien.org> writes:
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 16:55:34 +0000, Bill M wrote:
There should never be 'faith based' anything supported by our government
which represents hundreds of DIFFERENT faiths!
Keep religion out of government which the founding founders insisted on.
Easy to say, impossible to do. The problem faced by government is that
government is simply not equipped for charity. Government has neither the
motivation nor practice for charity. Charity *is* a religious concept and
it flies in the face of Darwinism.
Darwinism, the holy grail of atheism, says, "You snooze, you lose!"
Congratulations: you have just proved that there are no bees.
-- cary
Therefore, if there is to be charity in the United States, you will find a
church involved or at the very least some kind of religious principle (ie,
Salvation Army).
Or possibly this country's two richest atheists: Bill Gates and
Warren Buffet.
-- cary
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Background of Faith-based Initiatives |
15 Dec 2007 02:34:00 PM |
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Michael <newsuser2@orneveien.org> wrote:
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 16:55:34 +0000, Bill M wrote:
There should never be 'faith based' anything supported by our government
which represents hundreds of DIFFERENT faiths!
Keep religion out of government which the founding founders insisted on.
Easy to say, impossible to do. The problem faced by government is that
government is simply not equipped for charity. Government has neither the
motivation nor practice for charity. Charity *is* a religious concept and
it flies in the face of Darwinism.
Darwinism, the holy grail of atheism, says, "You snooze, you lose!"
"Darwinism", which has nothing to do with "atheism", does not address
sociological matters.
There was a non-scientific concept called "social Darwinism", that
attempted to apply some of the concepts of Darwin's theory to
sociological matters, sometimes in rather metaphorical ways. But in
fact "social Darwinism" has little to do with the real thing other
than the use of Darwin's name.
Therefore, if there is to be charity in the United States, you will find a
church involved or at the very least some kind of religious principle (ie,
Salvation Army).
That is simply false.
lojbab
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