| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Therion Ware" |
| Date: |
18 Nov 2004 03:50:54 AM |
| Object: |
BBC Morning News Programme: The Fall of Atheism? |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_atheists_20041118.ram
(realplayer required).
Is the western world becoming more secular as the practice of
traditional religion declines? Professor McGrath ("The Twilight of
Atheism: The Rise and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World")
interviewed.
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: BBC Morning News Programme: The Fall of Atheism? |
18 Nov 2004 05:14:34 AM |
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In our last episode <omrop0lko973435ipsfrr3f5223lpqlqu6@4ax.com>, Therion
Ware lept out of the bushes shouting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_atheists_20041118.ram
(realplayer required).
Is the western world becoming more secular as the practice of traditional
religion declines? Professor McGrath ("The Twilight of Atheism: The Rise
and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World") interviewed.
Apparently this guy would stand on the deck of the Titanic insisting the
*ice *berg is sinking...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: BBC Morning News Programme: The Fall of Atheism? |
18 Nov 2004 08:13:07 AM |
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On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:14:34 -0600 in alt.atheism, Mark K. Bilbo
("Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster>) said, directing the
reply to alt.atheism
In our last episode <omrop0lko973435ipsfrr3f5223lpqlqu6@4ax.com>, Therion
Ware lept out of the bushes shouting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_atheists_20041118.ram
(realplayer required).
Is the western world becoming more secular as the practice of traditional
religion declines? Professor McGrath ("The Twilight of Atheism: The Rise
and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World") interviewed.
Apparently this guy would stand on the deck of the Titanic insisting the
*ice *berg is sinking...
Yes, he does seem a bit ... enthusiastic. As I understand it, from the
interview and some of his written stuff, he equates the fall of the
Soviet Union with the fall of atheism. This is very silly because he
seems to me to be conflating Marxism (or at least the Russian version)
with atheism, whereas as far as I can see atheism for the Soviet
Marxist-Leninist was little more than a means of suborning all
authority to the party and not an end in itself.
Frankly I would have expected something better from a man of his
academic rank. Still his book is on special offer from Amazon, and I
may buy it to see what he's actually saying as opposed to reports of
what he's saying.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: www.Video2CD.com. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
Market Your DVD to The World For Almost Nothing: www.instantdvd.tv
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: BBC Morning News Programme: The Fall of Atheism? |
19 Nov 2004 09:01:48 AM |
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In our last episode <gi1pp0tvn0ee1f1r45tdh3t6gbb1eq89f3@4ax.com>, Therion
Ware lept out of the bushes shouting:
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:14:34 -0600 in alt.atheism, Mark K. Bilbo
("Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
In our last episode <omrop0lko973435ipsfrr3f5223lpqlqu6@4ax.com>, Therion
Ware lept out of the bushes shouting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_atheists_20041118.ram
(realplayer required).
Is the western world becoming more secular as the practice of
traditional religion declines? Professor McGrath ("The Twilight of
Atheism: The Rise and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World")
interviewed.
Apparently this guy would stand on the deck of the Titanic insisting the
*ice *berg is sinking...
Yes, he does seem a bit ... enthusiastic. As I understand it, from the
interview and some of his written stuff, he equates the fall of the Soviet
Union with the fall of atheism. This is very silly because he seems to me
to be conflating Marxism (or at least the Russian version) with atheism,
whereas as far as I can see atheism for the Soviet Marxist-Leninist was
little more than a means of suborning all authority to the party and not
an end in itself.
Frankly I would have expected something better from a man of his academic
rank. Still his book is on special offer from Amazon, and I may buy it to
see what he's actually saying as opposed to reports of what he's saying.
I couldn't buy it. I have a rule against encouraging willful ignorance. I
mean, the man must have shoved his head firmly up his ***** to be able to
ignore the broad decline of religion in at least the *entire West. Even in
the United States of Jesus, religion isn't doing so well and the number of
people who identify as "non-religous" or outright secular (in one form or
another) is rising steadily...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
.
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| User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass" |
|
| Title: Re: BBC Morning News Programme: The Fall of Atheism? |
18 Nov 2004 10:04:47 PM |
|
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On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:13:07 +0000, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:14:34 -0600 in alt.atheism, Mark K. Bilbo
("Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster>) said, directing the
reply to alt.atheism
In our last episode <omrop0lko973435ipsfrr3f5223lpqlqu6@4ax.com>, Therion
Ware lept out of the bushes shouting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_atheists_20041118.ram
(realplayer required).
Is the western world becoming more secular as the practice of traditional
religion declines? Professor McGrath ("The Twilight of Atheism: The Rise
and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World") interviewed.
Apparently this guy would stand on the deck of the Titanic insisting the
*ice *berg is sinking...
Yes, he does seem a bit ... enthusiastic. As I understand it, from the
interview and some of his written stuff, he equates the fall of the
Soviet Union with the fall of atheism.
That means the fall of the Holy Roman Empire represented the fall of
Christianity ?
This is very silly because he
seems to me to be conflating Marxism (or at least the Russian version)
with atheism, whereas as far as I can see atheism for the Soviet
Marxist-Leninist was little more than a means of suborning all
authority to the party and not an end in itself.
Frankly I would have expected something better from a man of his
academic rank. Still his book is on special offer from Amazon, and I
may buy it to see what he's actually saying as opposed to reports of
what he's saying.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1215 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: BBC Morning News Programme: The Fall of Atheism? |
18 Nov 2004 11:23:03 AM |
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On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:13:07 +0000, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:14:34 -0600 in alt.atheism, Mark K. Bilbo
("Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster>) said, directing the
reply to alt.atheism
In our last episode <omrop0lko973435ipsfrr3f5223lpqlqu6@4ax.com>, Therion
Ware lept out of the bushes shouting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_atheists_20041118.ram
(realplayer required).
Is the western world becoming more secular as the practice of traditional
religion declines? Professor McGrath ("The Twilight of Atheism: The Rise
and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World") interviewed.
Apparently this guy would stand on the deck of the Titanic insisting the
*ice *berg is sinking...
Yes, he does seem a bit ... enthusiastic. As I understand it, from the
interview and some of his written stuff, he equates the fall of the
Soviet Union with the fall of atheism. This is very silly because he
seems to me to be conflating Marxism (or at least the Russian version)
with atheism, whereas as far as I can see atheism for the Soviet
Marxist-Leninist was little more than a means of suborning all
authority to the party and not an end in itself.
He's yet another claimed "ex-atheist" who doesn't know what an atheist
is, and who defines us as though Santa Claus really had a magic
sleigh.
Frankly I would have expected something better from a man of his
academic rank. Still his book is on special offer from Amazon, and I
may buy it to see what he's actually saying as opposed to reports of
what he's saying.
We were discussing what he actually said - in the BBC radio interview.
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
|
| Title: Re: BBC Morning News Programme: The Fall of Atheism? |
18 Nov 2004 11:36:59 AM |
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On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:23:03 GMT in alt.atheism, Christopher A. Lee
(Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net>) said, directing the reply
to alt.atheism
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:13:07 +0000, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:14:34 -0600 in alt.atheism, Mark K. Bilbo
("Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster>) said, directing the
reply to alt.atheism
In our last episode <omrop0lko973435ipsfrr3f5223lpqlqu6@4ax.com>, Therion
Ware lept out of the bushes shouting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_atheists_20041118.ram
(realplayer required).
Is the western world becoming more secular as the practice of traditional
religion declines? Professor McGrath ("The Twilight of Atheism: The Rise
and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World") interviewed.
Apparently this guy would stand on the deck of the Titanic insisting the
*ice *berg is sinking...
Yes, he does seem a bit ... enthusiastic. As I understand it, from the
interview and some of his written stuff, he equates the fall of the
Soviet Union with the fall of atheism. This is very silly because he
seems to me to be conflating Marxism (or at least the Russian version)
with atheism, whereas as far as I can see atheism for the Soviet
Marxist-Leninist was little more than a means of suborning all
authority to the party and not an end in itself.
He's yet another claimed "ex-atheist" who doesn't know what an atheist
is, and who defines us as though Santa Claus really had a magic
sleigh.
Frankly I would have expected something better from a man of his
academic rank. Still his book is on special offer from Amazon, and I
may buy it to see what he's actually saying as opposed to reports of
what he's saying.
We were discussing what he actually said - in the BBC radio interview.
Yes. Which differed enough from what I've read to wonder about the
difference (presumably a good press agent, or at least good enough to
get him on Today)! Anyway I had a good day, and so bought the book and
threaten a review in due course.
<horror>
You'll all be sorry....
</horror>
Oh, incidentally, ever come across Melanie Phillips, a columnist and
opinion writer for the Daily Mail? She was crucified on the Moral Maze
yesterday.
Oh how I laughed.
audio:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/religion/rams/ram_moralmaze.ram
(realplayer required).
Website:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/religion/moralmaze.shtml
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: www.Video2CD.com. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
Market Your DVD to The World For Almost Nothing: www.instantdvd.tv
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.
|
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: BBC Morning News Programme: The Fall of Atheism? |
18 Nov 2004 12:39:55 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:36:59 +0000, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
Frankly I would have expected something better from a man of his
academic rank. Still his book is on special offer from Amazon, and I
may buy it to see what he's actually saying as opposed to reports of
what he's saying.
We were discussing what he actually said - in the BBC radio interview.
Yes. Which differed enough from what I've read to wonder about the
difference (presumably a good press agent, or at least good enough to
get him on Today)! Anyway I had a good day, and so bought the book and
threaten a review in due course.
<horror>
You'll all be sorry....
</horror>
Oh, incidentally, ever come across Melanie Phillips, a columnist and
opinion writer for the Daily Mail? She was crucified on the Moral Maze
yesterday.
Not until now. I never liked the Mail.
The other people on the show were right.
She found a shadow minister's lie about his girlfriend's abortion
worse than corruption, lies to get us into a war etc.
Oh how I laughed.
audio:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/religion/rams/ram_moralmaze.ram
(realplayer required).
Website:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/religion/moralmaze.shtml
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
|
| Title: Re: BBC Morning News Programme: The Fall of Atheism? |
18 Nov 2004 12:55:46 PM |
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On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:39:55 GMT in alt.atheism, Christopher A. Lee
(Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net>) said, directing the reply
to alt.atheism
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:36:59 +0000, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
Frankly I would have expected something better from a man of his
academic rank. Still his book is on special offer from Amazon, and I
may buy it to see what he's actually saying as opposed to reports of
what he's saying.
We were discussing what he actually said - in the BBC radio interview.
Yes. Which differed enough from what I've read to wonder about the
difference (presumably a good press agent, or at least good enough to
get him on Today)! Anyway I had a good day, and so bought the book and
threaten a review in due course.
<horror>
You'll all be sorry....
</horror>
Oh, incidentally, ever come across Melanie Phillips, a columnist and
opinion writer for the Daily Mail? She was crucified on the Moral Maze
yesterday.
Not until now. I never liked the Mail.
Neither do I. But, alas, I was brought up on it when it was a
broadsheet! It's funny how you get comfortable with things you
despise... Though I think as newspapers go I really like the Times (a
Mail stablemate) and Guardian, though I only read the online of those
editions mostly. The Independent seems to have gone off the boil a bit
recently.
Mind you. If all else fails there's always the Sunday Sport...
The other people on the show were right.
She found a shadow minister's lie about his girlfriend's abortion
worse than corruption, lies to get us into a war etc.
I know. Absolutely incredible. She's just as nuts about drugs.
Oh how I laughed.
audio:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/religion/rams/ram_moralmaze.ram
(realplayer required).
Website:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/religion/moralmaze.shtml
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: www.Video2CD.com. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
Market Your DVD to The World For Almost Nothing: www.instantdvd.tv
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.
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| User: "Jez" |
|
| Title: Re: BBC Morning News Programme: The Fall of Atheism? |
18 Nov 2004 01:29:44 PM |
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Therion Ware wrote:
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:39:55 GMT in alt.atheism, Christopher A. Lee
(Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net>) said, directing the reply
to alt.atheism
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:36:59 +0000, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
Oh, incidentally, ever come across Melanie Phillips, a columnist and
opinion writer for the Daily Mail? She was crucified on the Moral Maze
yesterday.
Not until now. I never liked the Mail.
Neither do I. But, alas, I was brought up on it when it was a
broadsheet! It's funny how you get comfortable with things you
despise... Though I think as newspapers go I really like the Times (a
Mail stablemate) and Guardian, though I only read the online of those
editions mostly. The Independent seems to have gone off the boil a bit
recently.
I gave up on the independent on-line when they started asking you to pay
to read Fisk.
Mind you. If all else fails there's always the Sunday Sport...
The other people on the show were right.
She found a shadow minister's lie about his girlfriend's abortion
worse than corruption, lies to get us into a war etc.
I know. Absolutely incredible. She's just as nuts about drugs.
And as ignorant. There are a whole variety of 'Hard Drugs' some of which
can be used for years with no impairment of one's ability, (Medical
grade Heroin for instance.)
Oh how I laughed.
Nah, sorry, they make me want to vomit.
--
Jez
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
Skype callto://hellward
NFS Porsche Unleashed, Hot Pursuit 2, Underground.
Yeowww
.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: BBC Morning News Programme: The Fall of Atheism? |
18 Nov 2004 01:24:53 PM |
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Therion Ware wrote:
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:23:03 GMT in alt.atheism, Christopher A. Lee
(Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net>) said, directing the reply
to alt.atheism
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:13:07 +0000, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:14:34 -0600 in alt.atheism, Mark K. Bilbo
("Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster>) said, directing the
reply to alt.atheism
In our last episode <omrop0lko973435ipsfrr3f5223lpqlqu6@4ax.com>, Therion
Ware lept out of the bushes shouting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_atheists_20041118.ram
(realplayer required).
Is the western world becoming more secular as the practice of traditional
religion declines? Professor McGrath ("The Twilight of Atheism: The Rise
and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World") interviewed.
Apparently this guy would stand on the deck of the Titanic insisting the
*ice *berg is sinking...
Yes, he does seem a bit ... enthusiastic. As I understand it, from the
interview and some of his written stuff, he equates the fall of the
Soviet Union with the fall of atheism. This is very silly because he
seems to me to be conflating Marxism (or at least the Russian version)
with atheism, whereas as far as I can see atheism for the Soviet
Marxist-Leninist was little more than a means of suborning all
authority to the party and not an end in itself.
He's yet another claimed "ex-atheist" who doesn't know what an atheist
is, and who defines us as though Santa Claus really had a magic
sleigh.
Frankly I would have expected something better from a man of his
academic rank. Still his book is on special offer from Amazon, and I
may buy it to see what he's actually saying as opposed to reports of
what he's saying.
We were discussing what he actually said - in the BBC radio interview.
Yes. Which differed enough from what I've read to wonder about the
difference (presumably a good press agent, or at least good enough to
get him on Today)! Anyway I had a good day, and so bought the book and
threaten a review in due course.
<horror>
You'll all be sorry....
</horror>
Oh, incidentally, ever come across Melanie Phillips, a columnist and
opinion writer for the Daily Mail? She was crucified on the Moral Maze
yesterday.
Oh how I laughed.
Yeah well, same old shallow BBC crap.
One of the worst programmes they broadcast...after the Archers and
Woman's hour.
--
Jez
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
Skype callto://hellward
NFS Porsche Unleashed, Hot Pursuit 2, Underground.
Yeowww
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: BBC Morning News Programme: The Fall of Atheism? |
18 Nov 2004 11:23:00 AM |
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On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:14:34 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode <omrop0lko973435ipsfrr3f5223lpqlqu6@4ax.com>, Therion
Ware lept out of the bushes shouting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_atheists_20041118.ram
(realplayer required).
Is the western world becoming more secular as the practice of traditional
religion declines? Professor McGrath ("The Twilight of Atheism: The Rise
and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World") interviewed.
Apparently this guy would stand on the deck of the Titanic insisting the
*ice *berg is sinking...
He's yet another idiot who imagines that the world revolves round his
own Santa Claus belief. Even though as an self-described "ex-atheist"
one might expect him to know it doesn't.
A professor or theology who was an ex-atheist? Who can't grasp that
atheism isn't an -ism but the absence of somebody else's particular
-ism?
Or that starting to believe in his deity would be exactly equivalent
to starting to believe in Santa Claus?
Or just how much people would have to forget and un-learn about
reality?
He also equated atheism with communism, saying that the fall of
atheism started with the fall of the Berlin wall.
He has no idea what he is talking about.
Ex-atheist. Yeah, right..
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: BBC Morning News Programme: The Fall of Atheism? |
19 Nov 2004 08:58:29 AM |
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In our last episode <58kpp01ujlqavo4vd95i1b6ak7lbu9llji@4ax.com>,
Christopher A. Lee lept out of the bushes shouting:
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:14:34 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode <omrop0lko973435ipsfrr3f5223lpqlqu6@4ax.com>, Therion
Ware lept out of the bushes shouting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_atheists_20041118.ram
(realplayer required).
Is the western world becoming more secular as the practice of
traditional religion declines? Professor McGrath ("The Twilight of
Atheism: The Rise and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World")
interviewed.
Apparently this guy would stand on the deck of the Titanic insisting the
*ice *berg is sinking...
He's yet another idiot who imagines that the world revolves round his own
Santa Claus belief. Even though as an self-described "ex-atheist" one
might expect him to know it doesn't.
A professor or theology who was an ex-atheist? Who can't grasp that
atheism isn't an -ism but the absence of somebody else's particular -ism?
Or that starting to believe in his deity would be exactly equivalent to
starting to believe in Santa Claus?
Or just how much people would have to forget and un-learn about reality?
He also equated atheism with communism, saying that the fall of atheism
started with the fall of the Berlin wall.
He has no idea what he is talking about.
Ex-atheist. Yeah, right..
The "ex-atheist" bit always reminds me of "some of my best friends are..."
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
.
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| User: "Rune Børsjø" |
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| Title: Re: BBC Morning News Programme: The Fall of Atheism? |
19 Nov 2004 10:44:16 AM |
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On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:50:54 +0000, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
Is the western world becoming more secular as the practice of
traditional religion declines? Professor McGrath ("The Twilight of
Atheism: The Rise and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World")
interviewed.
If it does come to an end it will be because we are overrun by the
islamic masses to which atheism is an alien word. Boy, if you thought
secularizing christians was difficult... and the other problem here is
that such a radical growth of islam is going to have a polarizing
effect on other religions as well. Groups are going to start fighting
over civil rights and religion in society and government even in the
secular countries of northern europe, and the secular people and civil
rights organizations are going to get caught, and killed, in the
crossfire.
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