| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Therion Ware" |
| Date: |
18 Aug 2005 01:03:23 AM |
| Object: |
[bbc] Strange fossil defies grouping |
IT says here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4156544.stm
Strange fossil defies grouping
A strange 525 million-year-old fossil creature is baffling scientists
because it does not fit neatly into any existing animal groups.
The animal, from the early Cambrian Period, might have belonged to a
now extinct mollusc-like phylum, academics from America and China say.
Other researchers have suggested the creature could represent an early
annelid or arthropod.
Details are published in Proceedings of the Royal Society B.
It is another strange thing from the Cambrian
Jonathan Todd, Natural History Museum, London
The 5-10cm-long (2-4 inch) fossil, from Anning in China, had a
flattened body and horizontal fins which, researchers think, could
have been used to support it as it moved along the sea floor. It also
had well developed senses, including a pair of eyes on stalks.
The trouble is the animal, named Vetustodermis planus , did not
possess a set of features, or characters, which placed it clearly
within any known group.
When it was first described in 1979, Vetustodermis was included in the
annelid category. Later researchers argued against this
classification, saying it was, in fact, either an arthropod or a
mollusc.
Flat foot
According to the latest study, the weird creature seems closest to
molluscs, primarily because it had a snail or slug-like flat foot.
However, the researchers say, it does not sit happily in this group.
"Phyla are defined by an organism having a set of features called
characters, and currently there are no animals that we know of which
contain the set of characters that Vetustodermis has," co-author David
Bottjer, of the University of Southern California, US, told the BBC
News website.
"The phylum with which it shares the most characters is the Mollusca,
but squeezing Vetustodermis into the mollusca is a somewhat messy
job."
Since Vetustodermis requires some "pushing and pulling" to force it
into any known phylum, Professor Bottjer and his colleagues are
tempted to speculate it belonged to a different group entirely; one
which flourished and faded within the Cambrian.
"We have always been intrigued by the many molluscan features of these
fossils, but in the great menagerie of organisms that have inhabited
Earth through life's long history, we may come to conclude that
Vetustodermis indeed represents a new phylum," he said.
Jonathan Todd, a palaeontologist from the Natural History Museum,
London, UK, is also mystified by the baffling animal.
"It is an intriguing beast," he told the BBC News website. "It is
another strange thing from the Cambrian. It doesn't look much like an
arthropod and I don't find it molluscan affinities particularly
convincing."
Evolutionary tree
However, Dr Todd is reluctant to create a whole new phylum to
accommodate Vetustodermis ; that, he thinks, would be premature.
"Some scientists have thought that there were so many distinct phyla
in the Cambrian," he said. "They came to that conclusion because they
were not thinking in the phylogenetic sense, they were thinking 'hey,
that is a unique set of features - it must be a distinct phylum'."
So rather than creating new phyla every time something doesn't fit an
existing one, the really interesting exercise, Dr Todd thinks, is to
establish just how Vetustodermis slotted into the greater evolutionary
tree.
If, indeed, it did belong to a different phylum, how did that group
connect to the molluscs, annelids and arthropods?
"We don't really know the phylo-genetic relationships between the
extant phyla," he said. "Molecular genetics has only gone so far. But
recent phyla have got to connect somehow. These fossils really offer
the opportunity to tie together recent phyla."
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/sci/tech/4156544.stm
Published: 2005/08/17 12:32:35 GMT
© BBC MMV
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: [bbc] Strange fossil defies grouping |
19 Aug 2005 12:56:38 AM |
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In article <0398g192e96vt7hdtgb1h33altro2peqbm@4ax.com>,
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
IT says here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4156544.stm
Strange fossil defies grouping
<snip article>
An evolutionary dead end? I wonder how many other now extinct phyla
existed at one time or another. It would seem that the Intelligent
Designer ( aka God) goofed again.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: [bbc] Strange fossil defies grouping |
21 Aug 2005 10:06:39 AM |
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On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:56:38 -0700, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:
In article <0398g192e96vt7hdtgb1h33altro2peqbm@4ax.com>,
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
IT says here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4156544.stm
Strange fossil defies grouping
<snip article>
An evolutionary dead end? I wonder how many other now extinct phyla
existed at one time or another. It would seem that the Intelligent
Designer ( aka God) goofed again.
When did it ever have a success?
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: [bbc] Strange fossil defies grouping |
21 Aug 2005 04:26:28 PM |
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In article <a36hg1heo04nmhhgpoirnvj9dbjrhc1ak7@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:56:38 -0700, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:
In article <0398g192e96vt7hdtgb1h33altro2peqbm@4ax.com>,
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
IT says here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4156544.stm
Strange fossil defies grouping
<snip article>
An evolutionary dead end? I wonder how many other now extinct phyla
existed at one time or another. It would seem that the Intelligent
Designer ( aka God) goofed again.
When did it ever have a success?
Never.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
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| User: "Rik Grandia" |
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| Title: Re: [bbc] Strange fossil defies grouping |
22 Aug 2005 07:33:32 AM |
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"johac" <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote in message
news:jhachm-605261.14262821082005@news.giganews.com...
In article <a36hg1heo04nmhhgpoirnvj9dbjrhc1ak7@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:56:38 -0700, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:
In article <0398g192e96vt7hdtgb1h33altro2peqbm@4ax.com>,
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
IT says here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4156544.stm
Strange fossil defies grouping
<snip article>
An evolutionary dead end? I wonder how many other now extinct phyla
existed at one time or another. It would seem that the Intelligent
Designer ( aka God) goofed again.
When did it ever have a success?
Never.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
[snip sig.]
Did you notice the name of the reporter?
--
=======================================
r.j.grandia@CONFUSE-A-BOTi-groep.leidenuniv.nl
(To reply, unconfuse the 'bot).
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: [bbc] Strange fossil defies grouping |
23 Aug 2005 12:35:41 AM |
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In article <decgms$eoq$1@mercury.leidenuniv.nl>,
"Rik Grandia" <r.j.grandia@CONFUSE-A-BOTi-groep.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
"johac" <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote in message
news:jhachm-605261.14262821082005@news.giganews.com...
In article <a36hg1heo04nmhhgpoirnvj9dbjrhc1ak7@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:56:38 -0700, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:
In article <0398g192e96vt7hdtgb1h33altro2peqbm@4ax.com>,
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
IT says here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4156544.stm
Strange fossil defies grouping
<snip article>
An evolutionary dead end? I wonder how many other now extinct phyla
existed at one time or another. It would seem that the Intelligent
Designer ( aka God) goofed again.
When did it ever have a success?
Never.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
[snip sig.]
Did you notice the name of the reporter?
Julianna Kettlewell? Now that you mention it I wonder if she is a
descendant of the 'peppered moth' Kettlewell? She has published many
articles on evolution for the BBC.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
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| User: "Rik Grandia" |
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| Title: Re: [bbc] Strange fossil defies grouping |
23 Aug 2005 06:55:08 AM |
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"johac" <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote in message
news:jhachm-838795.22354122082005@news.giganews.com...
In article <decgms$eoq$1@mercury.leidenuniv.nl>,
"Rik Grandia" <r.j.grandia@CONFUSE-A-BOTi-groep.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
"johac" <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote in message
news:jhachm-605261.14262821082005@news.giganews.com...
In article <a36hg1heo04nmhhgpoirnvj9dbjrhc1ak7@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:56:38 -0700, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:
In article <0398g192e96vt7hdtgb1h33altro2peqbm@4ax.com>,
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
IT says here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4156544.stm
Strange fossil defies grouping
<snip article>
An evolutionary dead end? I wonder how many other now extinct phyla
existed at one time or another. It would seem that the Intelligent
Designer ( aka God) goofed again.
When did it ever have a success?
Never.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
[snip sig.]
Did you notice the name of the reporter?
Julianna Kettlewell? Now that you mention it I wonder if she is a
descendant of the 'peppered moth' Kettlewell? She has published many
articles on evolution for the BBC.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Some people apparently think so:
http://www.brothersjudd.com/blog/archives/025306.html
and
http://creationsafaris.com/crev200507.htm#20050725b , article "Do
Butterflies Evolve Via Team Stripes?"
--
=======================================
r.j.grandia@CONFUSE-A-BOTi-groep.leidenuniv.nl
(To reply, unconfuse the 'bot).
.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: [bbc] Strange fossil defies grouping |
24 Aug 2005 12:08:20 AM |
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In article <def2qt$92g$1@mercury.leidenuniv.nl>,
"Rik Grandia" <r.j.grandia@CONFUSE-A-BOTi-groep.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
"johac" <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote in message
news:jhachm-838795.22354122082005@news.giganews.com...
In article <decgms$eoq$1@mercury.leidenuniv.nl>,
"Rik Grandia" <r.j.grandia@CONFUSE-A-BOTi-groep.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
"johac" <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote in message
news:jhachm-605261.14262821082005@news.giganews.com...
In article <a36hg1heo04nmhhgpoirnvj9dbjrhc1ak7@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:56:38 -0700, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:
In article <0398g192e96vt7hdtgb1h33altro2peqbm@4ax.com>,
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
IT says here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4156544.stm
Strange fossil defies grouping
<snip article>
An evolutionary dead end? I wonder how many other now extinct phyla
existed at one time or another. It would seem that the Intelligent
Designer ( aka God) goofed again.
When did it ever have a success?
Never.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
[snip sig.]
Did you notice the name of the reporter?
Julianna Kettlewell? Now that you mention it I wonder if she is a
descendant of the 'peppered moth' Kettlewell? She has published many
articles on evolution for the BBC.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Some people apparently think so:
http://www.brothersjudd.com/blog/archives/025306.html
and
http://creationsafaris.com/crev200507.htm#20050725b , article "Do
Butterflies Evolve Via Team Stripes?"
It's not surprising that creationists would pick up on that. And as in
the case of the other Kettlewell, they miss the point;
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
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| User: "Agki" |
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| Title: Re: Strange fossil defies grouping |
18 Aug 2005 09:58:27 AM |
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So what? There must be billions of fossils (including those not yet
found) that won't conveniently go into a group. Another point is that
most of the "groups" were constructed using extant forms. Trying to
force a 525 MYA fossil into one of them is going to produce
controversy.
Agki
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| User: "Jor-El" |
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| Title: Re: [bbc] Strange fossil defies grouping |
18 Aug 2005 05:18:24 PM |
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Therefore all science is wrong.
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| User: "Stanley Friesen" |
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| Title: Re: [bbc] Strange fossil defies grouping |
18 Aug 2005 09:24:50 AM |
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Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
IT says here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4156544.stm
Strange fossil defies grouping
A strange 525 million-year-old fossil creature is baffling scientists
because it does not fit neatly into any existing animal groups.
This is news?? There are many Early Cambrian and Late Proterozoic
fossils that defy classification. Just check out the Ediacaran fauna.
--
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
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| User: "Bobby D. Bryant" |
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| Title: Re: [bbc] Strange fossil defies grouping |
18 Aug 2005 04:06:11 PM |
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On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Stanley Friesen <sarima@friesen.net> wrote:
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
IT says here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4156544.stm
Strange fossil defies grouping
A strange 525 million-year-old fossil creature is baffling scientists
because it does not fit neatly into any existing animal groups.
This is news?? There are many Early Cambrian and Late Proterozoic
fossils that defy classification. Just check out the Ediacaran fauna.
The interesting question is, how long until an evolution denier sees the
article and declares the specimen "a problem for evolution".
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
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| User: "The Last Conformist" |
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| Title: Re: Strange fossil defies grouping |
18 Aug 2005 06:46:55 AM |
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Therion Ware wrote:
IT says here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4156544.stm
Strange fossil defies grouping
A strange 525 million-year-old fossil creature is baffling scientists
because it does not fit neatly into any existing animal groups.
The animal, from the early Cambrian Period, might have belonged to a
now extinct mollusc-like phylum, academics from America and China say.
Other researchers have suggested the creature could represent an early
annelid or arthropod.
Details are published in Proceedings of the Royal Society B.
It is another strange thing from the Cambrian
Jonathan Todd, Natural History Museum, London
The 5-10cm-long (2-4 inch) fossil, from Anning in China, had a
flattened body and horizontal fins which, researchers think, could
have been used to support it as it moved along the sea floor. It also
had well developed senses, including a pair of eyes on stalks.
The trouble is the animal, named Vetustodermis planus , did not
possess a set of features, or characters, which placed it clearly
within any known group.
When it was first described in 1979, Vetustodermis was included in the
annelid category. Later researchers argued against this
classification, saying it was, in fact, either an arthropod or a
mollusc.
Flat foot
According to the latest study, the weird creature seems closest to
molluscs, primarily because it had a snail or slug-like flat foot.
However, the researchers say, it does not sit happily in this group.
"Phyla are defined by an organism having a set of features called
characters, and currently there are no animals that we know of which
contain the set of characters that Vetustodermis has," co-author David
Bottjer, of the University of Southern California, US, told the BBC
News website.
"The phylum with which it shares the most characters is the Mollusca,
but squeezing Vetustodermis into the mollusca is a somewhat messy
job."
Since Vetustodermis requires some "pushing and pulling" to force it
into any known phylum, Professor Bottjer and his colleagues are
tempted to speculate it belonged to a different group entirely; one
which flourished and faded within the Cambrian.
"We have always been intrigued by the many molluscan features of these
fossils, but in the great menagerie of organisms that have inhabited
Earth through life's long history, we may come to conclude that
Vetustodermis indeed represents a new phylum," he said.
Jonathan Todd, a palaeontologist from the Natural History Museum,
London, UK, is also mystified by the baffling animal.
"It is an intriguing beast," he told the BBC News website. "It is
another strange thing from the Cambrian. It doesn't look much like an
arthropod and I don't find it molluscan affinities particularly
convincing."
Evolutionary tree
However, Dr Todd is reluctant to create a whole new phylum to
accommodate Vetustodermis ; that, he thinks, would be premature.
"Some scientists have thought that there were so many distinct phyla
in the Cambrian," he said. "They came to that conclusion because they
were not thinking in the phylogenetic sense, they were thinking 'hey,
that is a unique set of features - it must be a distinct phylum'."
So rather than creating new phyla every time something doesn't fit an
existing one, the really interesting exercise, Dr Todd thinks, is to
establish just how Vetustodermis slotted into the greater evolutionary
tree.
If, indeed, it did belong to a different phylum, how did that group
connect to the molluscs, annelids and arthropods?
"We don't really know the phylo-genetic relationships between the
extant phyla," he said. "Molecular genetics has only gone so far. But
recent phyla have got to connect somehow. These fossils really offer
the opportunity to tie together recent phyla."
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/sci/tech/4156544.stm
Published: 2005/08/17 12:32:35 GMT
© BBC MMV
Excuse me if I sound like Dawkins, but why this fixation with Cambrian
phyla? Maybe it's a "molluscomorph", maybe it's not, but however
interesting its phylogenetic affinities may be, whichever phylum we
chose to stick it into is just a bookkeeping exercise.
Cladism now!
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: [bbc] Strange fossil defies grouping |
18 Aug 2005 12:35:39 PM |
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Therion Ware wrote:
Yeah, but it's still a, a, a um, ah, um, ...
never mind.
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| User: "Mt1" |
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| Title: Re: Strange fossil defies grouping |
18 Aug 2005 07:44:31 AM |
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What's interesting is that if the creationist had their way, none of
this would be looked into. It doesn't fit into the tree? Fine, god
did it, move on. Next problem please.
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