Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System


 Religions > Atheism > Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System

LINK TO THIS PAGE  


rating :  0   |  0


  Page 1 of 1

1
 
Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"
Date: 03 May 2006 09:36:25 AM
Object: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System
But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-kaiser3may03,0,7436765,full.story?coll=la-home-headlines
In mid-2004, more than 1,500 Kaiser Permanente patients awaiting
kidney transplants in Northern California got form letters that forced
them to change the course of their treatment.
Kaiser would no longer pay for transplants at outside hospitals, even
established programs with thousands of successes. Instead, adult
patients would be transferred to a new transplant center run by Kaiser
itself — the first ever opened by the nation's largest HMO.
.....Kaiser's massive rollout in Northern California endangered
patients, forcing them into a fledgling program unprepared to handle
the caseload, according to a Los Angeles Times investigation based on
dozens of interviews, statistical analyses and confidential documents.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12.5 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -2405 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
-----
"Ahhhhhh, yessssssss, ummmmmmm - Alito, Alito, Alito"
-duke (duckgumbo@cox.net), aka PedophilEarl J Weber, 59
year old mateless, heirless biological failure
of Afton Oaks Apartment, Baton Rouge,who pussied
out of the Vietnam draft, showing his gay side
despite his avowed anti-gay bigotry
Contact duke's priest and ask
him why duke is such a racist:
http://www.stpatrickbr.org/
Father Gerard "Jerry" Martin
stpatrickbr<AT>bellsouth<DOT>net
Saint Patrick Catholic Church
12424 Brogdon Lane
Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70816
.

User: "R. Pierce Butler"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 03 May 2006 11:42:45 AM
"Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in
news:1lfh521mbvcqp4r6ab5jpemq8laimf3rjf@4ax.com:

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!

MRI scans too. Then there is the liver transplants cancelled because of a
lack of empty hospital beds. If you happen to be unlucky then the liver
destined for you is given to someone else and you go back to the end of the
line. In essence you are sent home to die.
If ever there was a case made against socialized (Communist) medicine, Canada
has illustrated and demonstrated it.
.
User: "Parsifal"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 03 May 2006 02:26:39 PM
*If ever there was a case made against socialized (Communist) medicine,
Canada
*has illustrated and demonstrated it.
Spoken like a true moron. Thank you for maintaining the tradition of
the ignorant (and proud to be) American alive!
.
User: "R. Pierce Butler"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 03 May 2006 07:21:28 PM
"Parsifal" <jeanpascalvachon@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1146684398.971644.88760@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

*If ever there was a case made against socialized (Communist) medicine,
Canada
*has illustrated and demonstrated it.

Spoken like a true moron. Thank you for maintaining the tradition of
the ignorant (and proud to be) American alive!


Thanks for the ad hominim attack. I was expecting a response that was more
mature so I am a bit disappointed.
If my assesment of socialized medicine is wrong, please prove me wrong.
Why did I say communist? Because communism is the same as socialism in
many ways. May I present the "United Soviet *Socialist* Republic as
evidence.
Based on the structure and grammar of your second sentence, I conclude that
english is not your first language. Feel free to use any language you are
most comfortable with.
BTW Canada is no the only country with a fucked up health care system. The
UK's system is equally as bad so you should not feel that you are being
singled out. There are other countries just as fucked up if not worse than
Canada.
pierce
.
User: "Sasha"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 04 May 2006 08:54:54 AM

BTW Canada is no the only country with a fucked up health care system. The
UK's system is equally as bad so you should not feel that you are being
singled out. There are other countries just as fucked up if not worse than
Canada.

I KNOW! All of those people being entitled to health care regardless of
employment or station in life. How horrible!
All sarcasm aside, I really don't understand why it's so "fucked up"?
It isn't exactly perfect (same reason I gave earlier...smokers, obese
people going out of their way to drain the system, doctor salary caps,
etc) but it is by no means a disaster. I'm not trying to blow smoke up
anyone's ***** - I live here in Toronto, I use the health care system
(more often than I care to admit thanks to sports injuries) and it
works well. I never wait too long to appointment-based service, have
access to whatever medical care I need...
Sounds pretty decent to me.
So, what happens if you lose your job tomorrow? The economy is still
slow, and jobs aren't easy to come by...you might be unemployed for
months. What happens if you get sick during that time? Need surgery?
You lost your health insurance when you lost your job, so you're either
paying for 3rd party health insurance (not that different than paying
for it through your taxes like here in Canada) or you submit yourself
to the whim of HMO's.
As I said, no health care system is perfect, but the only people I hear
complaining about it are Conservatives, or those in a country with no
universal health care. Yes, 39% of my salary goes to taxes. But when I
need an MRI, or to have my knee operated on by one of the best
orthopaedic surgeons in North America, I like flashing my Ontario
Health card and not having to worry about anything else - regardless of
my employment or social status.
.

User: "Phillip Brown"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 03 May 2006 08:47:13 PM
On Thu, 04 May 2006 00:21:28 +0000, R. Pierce Butler wrote:

"Parsifal" <jeanpascalvachon@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1146684398.971644.88760@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

*If ever there was a case made against socialized (Communist) medicine,
Canada
*has illustrated and demonstrated it.

Spoken like a true moron. Thank you for maintaining the tradition of
the ignorant (and proud to be) American alive!



Thanks for the ad hominim attack. I was expecting a response that was more
mature so I am a bit disappointed.

If my assesment of socialized medicine is wrong, please prove me wrong.
Why did I say communist? Because communism is the same as socialism in
many ways. May I present the "United Soviet *Socialist* Republic as
evidence.

and East Germany was the DDR - German Democratic Republic. Just calling
it so doesn't make it so. Just because the USSR said they were socialist,
doesn't mean that 'socialism' = 'how things were in the USSR'.


Based on the structure and grammar of your second sentence, I conclude
that english is not your first language. Feel free to use any language
you are most comfortable with.

BTW Canada is no the only country with a fucked up health care system.
The UK's system is equally as bad so you should not feel that you are
being singled out. There are other countries just as fucked up if not
worse than Canada.

pierce

--
phillip brown
"***** doesn't just happen. there is always an *****-hole involved"
.



User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 04 May 2006 12:01:04 AM
On Wed, 03 May 2006 16:42:45 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:

"Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in
news:1lfh521mbvcqp4r6ab5jpemq8laimf3rjf@4ax.com:

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!


MRI scans too. Then there is the liver transplants cancelled because of a
lack of empty hospital beds. If you happen to be unlucky then the liver
destined for you is given to someone else and you go back to the end of the
line. In essence you are sent home to die.

And for all that supposed "non service", the average Candian live
longer and have lower infant mortality than the average American, and
the reuslts holds EVEN when we only compare Canadians to white
Americans. And Canada does it AND does it for about $2,600 less [1]

If ever there was a case made against socialized (Communist) medicine, Canada
has illustrated and demonstrated it.

And yet it is better than the US system. Why is that?
[1]http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0289.htm
http://198.81.129.100/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html
Infant mortality rate:
total: 6.43 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 7.09 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 5.74 deaths/1,000 live births (2006 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 77.85 years
male: 75.02 years
female: 80.82 years (2006 est.)
http://198.81.129.100/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ca.html
Infant mortality rate:
total: 4.69 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 5.15 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 4.22 deaths/1,000 live births (2006 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 80.22 years
male: 76.86 years
female: 83.74 years (2006 est.)
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5422a1.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus05.pdf#027
W
all 78
m 75.3
f 80.5
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12.5 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -2405 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
-----
"Ahhhhhh, yessssssss, ummmmmmm - Alito, Alito, Alito"
-duke (duckgumbo@cox.net), aka PedophilEarl J Weber, 59
year old mateless, heirless biological failure
of Afton Oaks Apartment, Baton Rouge,who pussied
out of the Vietnam draft, showing his gay side
despite his avowed anti-gay bigotry
Contact duke's priest and ask
him why duke is such a racist:
http://www.stpatrickbr.org/
Father Gerard "Jerry" Martin
stpatrickbr<AT>bellsouth<DOT>net
Saint Patrick Catholic Church
12424 Brogdon Lane
Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70816
.
User: "R. Pierce Butler"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 04 May 2006 05:37:16 AM
"Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in
news:5c2j52trj4js5ng1h9uliskesj9le661t2@4ax.com:

On Wed, 03 May 2006 16:42:45 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:

"Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in
news:1lfh521mbvcqp4r6ab5jpemq8laimf3rjf@4ax.com:

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!


MRI scans too. Then there is the liver transplants cancelled because of
a lack of empty hospital beds. If you happen to be unlucky then the
liver destined for you is given to someone else and you go back to the
end of the line. In essence you are sent home to die.



And for all that supposed "non service", the average Candian live
longer and have lower infant mortality than the average American, and
the reuslts holds EVEN when we only compare Canadians to white
Americans. And Canada does it AND does it for about $2,600 less [1]

If ever there was a case made against socialized (Communist) medicine,
Canada has illustrated and demonstrated it.


And yet it is better than the US system. Why is that?


Better is subjective.


[1]http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0289.htm

http://198.81.129.100/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html
Infant mortality rate:
total: 6.43 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 7.09 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 5.74 deaths/1,000 live births (2006 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 77.85 years
male: 75.02 years
female: 80.82 years (2006 est.)
http://198.81.129.100/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ca.html
Infant mortality rate:
total: 4.69 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 5.15 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 4.22 deaths/1,000 live births (2006 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 80.22 years
male: 76.86 years
female: 83.74 years (2006 est.)

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5422a1.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus05.pdf#027
W
all 78
m 75.3
f 80.5



-----

It is intersting that people love to toss around statistics like this
without looking at the underlying reasons. Convider the following
statistic. "Drinking red wine lowers chance of heart disease" Have they
taken into consideration that those who drink red wine lead a healtier
lifestyle than those who drink beer?
Longevity has nothing to do with health care and everything to do with
lifestyle. I have several ancestors that lived into their late 80s and one
even as old as 99 and that was in the early 1800's. Medicine was in it's
dark ages comparitively.
http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=102703C
"Three years ago, a survey by the Harvard School of Public Health of over
2000 physicians in Canada, Britain, New Zealand, Australia, and the United
States found that Canadians were by far the most pessimistic. More of them
felt that their ability to provide quality care had declined and that it
would only get worse in the future. The overwhelming majority of Canadian
doctors complained about medical and diagnostic equipment shortages, and
long waiting times for care. And, like their counterparts in the United
States, they feel short-changed in the time they have to spend with their
patients. "
"This medical brain drain is not inconsequential. Although 100% of
Canadians have healthcare insurance, it does no good for the 18% of them
who have trouble finding a doctor. Contrast that with the United States
where 15% may be without insurance, but only 6% go without needed care as a
result. Our system may have its problems, but access to care isnt one of
them. At least not when compared to Canadas."
"We should look to Canada, all right, but not as a role model. We should
look to them instead as a warning. There but for the grace of God -- and a
strong independent streak -- go we."
.
User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 05 May 2006 01:48:04 AM
On Thu, 04 May 2006 10:37:16 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:

"Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in
news:5c2j52trj4js5ng1h9uliskesj9le661t2@4ax.com:

On Wed, 03 May 2006 16:42:45 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:

"Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in
news:1lfh521mbvcqp4r6ab5jpemq8laimf3rjf@4ax.com:

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!


MRI scans too. Then there is the liver transplants cancelled because of
a lack of empty hospital beds. If you happen to be unlucky then the
liver destined for you is given to someone else and you go back to the
end of the line. In essence you are sent home to die.



And for all that supposed "non service", the average Candian live
longer and have lower infant mortality than the average American, and
the reuslts holds EVEN when we only compare Canadians to white
Americans. And Canada does it AND does it for about $2,600 less [1]

If ever there was a case made against socialized (Communist) medicine,
Canada has illustrated and demonstrated it.


And yet it is better than the US system. Why is that?




Better is subjective.



[1]http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0289.htm

http://198.81.129.100/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html
Infant mortality rate:
total: 6.43 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 7.09 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 5.74 deaths/1,000 live births (2006 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 77.85 years
male: 75.02 years
female: 80.82 years (2006 est.)
http://198.81.129.100/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ca.html
Infant mortality rate:
total: 4.69 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 5.15 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 4.22 deaths/1,000 live births (2006 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 80.22 years
male: 76.86 years
female: 83.74 years (2006 est.)

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5422a1.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus05.pdf#027
W
all 78
m 75.3
f 80.5



-----



It is intersting that people love to toss around statistics like this
without looking at the underlying reasons. Convider the following
statistic. "Drinking red wine lowers chance of heart disease" Have they
taken into consideration that those who drink red wine lead a healtier
lifestyle than those who drink beer?

It is interesting that you are all for facts and figures until they
become inconveient to you. No one is saying that the Candian system is
perfect, but exactly what performance metric do you have that says it
is definitively worse than the US system?

Longevity has nothing to do with health care and everything to do with
lifestyle. I have several ancestors that lived into their late 80s and one
even as old as 99 and that was in the early 1800's. Medicine was in it's
dark ages comparitively.

First of all, longevity have everything to do with healthcare. Why pay
all that money if it's not helping you live longer.
Secondly, your contention that lifestyle as the sole contributor to
age expenctancy make no sense for infant mortality. Are you saying
that Candian babies are genetically superiror to American babies?

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=102703C

"Three years ago, a survey by the Harvard School of Public Health of over
2000 physicians in Canada, Britain, New Zealand, Australia, and the United
States found that Canadians were by far the most pessimistic. More of them
felt that their ability to provide quality care had declined and that it
would only get worse in the future. The overwhelming majority of Canadian
doctors complained about medical and diagnostic equipment shortages, and
long waiting times for care. And, like their counterparts in the United
States, they feel short-changed in the time they have to spend with their
patients. "

I'm disappointed in you. You dismiss facts that are contrary to your
position as "subjective", and in your defense you offer up something
that is even MORE subjective? happiness? How is that less subjective
than infant mortality rate?
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12.5 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -2410 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
-----
"Ahhhhhh, yessssssss, ummmmmmm - Alito, Alito, Alito"
-duke (duckgumbo@cox.net), aka PedophilEarl J Weber, 59
year old mateless, heirless biological failure
of Afton Oaks Apartment, Baton Rouge,who pussied
out of the Vietnam draft, showing his gay side
despite his avowed anti-gay bigotry
Contact duke's priest and ask
him why duke is such a racist:
http://www.stpatrickbr.org/
Father Gerard "Jerry" Martin
stpatrickbr<AT>bellsouth<DOT>net
Saint Patrick Catholic Church
12424 Brogdon Lane
Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70816
.

User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 04 May 2006 09:56:11 AM
On Thu, 04 May 2006 10:37:16 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:

"Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in
news:5c2j52trj4js5ng1h9uliskesj9le661t2@4ax.com:

On Wed, 03 May 2006 16:42:45 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:

"Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in
news:1lfh521mbvcqp4r6ab5jpemq8laimf3rjf@4ax.com:

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!


MRI scans too. Then there is the liver transplants cancelled because of
a lack of empty hospital beds. If you happen to be unlucky then the
liver destined for you is given to someone else and you go back to the
end of the line. In essence you are sent home to die.



And for all that supposed "non service", the average Candian live
longer and have lower infant mortality than the average American, and
the reuslts holds EVEN when we only compare Canadians to white
Americans. And Canada does it AND does it for about $2,600 less [1]

If ever there was a case made against socialized (Communist) medicine,
Canada has illustrated and demonstrated it.


And yet it is better than the US system. Why is that?




Better is subjective.

Actually, better as in objectively measured standards, they live
longer, healthier, and their children are less likely to die. I was
under the impression that these are the things a good healthcare
sysetm was supposed to strive for.
So why is the "communist" Canadian system so much better than the
"capitalist" American system?


[1]http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0289.htm

http://198.81.129.100/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html
Infant mortality rate:
total: 6.43 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 7.09 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 5.74 deaths/1,000 live births (2006 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 77.85 years
male: 75.02 years
female: 80.82 years (2006 est.)
http://198.81.129.100/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ca.html
Infant mortality rate:
total: 4.69 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 5.15 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 4.22 deaths/1,000 live births (2006 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 80.22 years
male: 76.86 years
female: 83.74 years (2006 est.)

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5422a1.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus05.pdf#027
W
all 78
m 75.3
f 80.5



-----



It is intersting that people love to toss around statistics like this
without looking at the underlying reasons. Convider the following
statistic. "Drinking red wine lowers chance of heart disease" Have they
taken into consideration that those who drink red wine lead a healtier
lifestyle than those who drink beer?

Longevity has nothing to do with health care and everything to do with
lifestyle. I have several ancestors that lived into their late 80s and one
even as old as 99 and that was in the early 1800's. Medicine was in it's
dark ages comparitively.

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=102703C

"Three years ago, a survey by the Harvard School of Public Health of over
2000 physicians in Canada, Britain, New Zealand, Australia, and the United
States found that Canadians were by far the most pessimistic. More of them
felt that their ability to provide quality care had declined and that it
would only get worse in the future. The overwhelming majority of Canadian
doctors complained about medical and diagnostic equipment shortages, and
long waiting times for care. And, like their counterparts in the United
States, they feel short-changed in the time they have to spend with their
patients. "


"This medical brain drain is not inconsequential. Although 100% of
Canadians have healthcare insurance, it does no good for the 18% of them
who have trouble finding a doctor. Contrast that with the United States
where 15% may be without insurance, but only 6% go without needed care as a
result. Our system may have its problems, but access to care isnt one of
them. At least not when compared to Canadas."

"We should look to Canada, all right, but not as a role model. We should
look to them instead as a warning. There but for the grace of God -- and a
strong independent streak -- go we."

-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12.5 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -2405 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
-----
"Ahhhhhh, yessssssss, ummmmmmm - Alito, Alito, Alito"
-duke (duckgumbo@cox.net), aka PedophilEarl J Weber, 59
year old mateless, heirless biological failure
of Afton Oaks Apartment, Baton Rouge,who pussied
out of the Vietnam draft, showing his gay side
despite his avowed anti-gay bigotry
Contact duke's priest and ask
him why duke is such a racist:
http://www.stpatrickbr.org/
Father Gerard "Jerry" Martin
stpatrickbr<AT>bellsouth<DOT>net
Saint Patrick Catholic Church
12424 Brogdon Lane
Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70816
.




User: "Sasha"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 03 May 2006 10:14:58 AM

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!

No offense, Yang...I love your posts, but I have to jump in just this
once. :-) I think the wait times here in Canada have been pretty badly
over-exaggerated. I had knee surgery a couple of months ago, and had to
wait 3 days. The MRI before that? Next day service (mind you, it was at
2:30am).
Of course, my taxes don't just pay for my surgery - they pay for the
fat ***** next to me who smoked and ate himself into a severe heart
condition. Pros and cons, I guess.
.
User: "R. Pierce Butler"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 03 May 2006 11:45:49 AM
"Sasha" <scironi@gmail.com> wrote in news:1146669298.165379.266380
@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!


No offense, Yang...I love your posts, but I have to jump in just this
once. :-) I think the wait times here in Canada have been pretty badly
over-exaggerated. I had knee surgery a couple of months ago, and had to
wait 3 days. The MRI before that? Next day service (mind you, it was at
2:30am).

Of course, my taxes don't just pay for my surgery - they pay for the
fat ***** next to me who smoked and ate himself into a severe heart
condition. Pros and cons, I guess.


How much is that health care "tax" that Canadiens/Canadians pay?
.
User: "Sasha"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 03 May 2006 01:10:50 PM

How much is that health care "tax" that Canadiens/Canadians pay?

Hard to say; Depending on your income, you lose anywhere from 19% to
42% of your salary to tax. Some people joke that making less than
$74,500 a year is better than making more, simply because you stay in a
lower tax bracket and take home more per pay.
On a side note, you shouldn't use the word "Canadiens" in front of a
Toronto person - too many bitter Leafs/Habs comparisons. :-)
.
User: "R. Pierce Butler"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 03 May 2006 07:09:51 PM
"Sasha" <scironi@gmail.com> wrote in news:1146679850.131108.55880
@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

How much is that health care "tax" that Canadiens/Canadians pay?


Hard to say; Depending on your income, you lose anywhere from 19% to
42% of your salary to tax. Some people joke that making less than
$74,500 a year is better than making more, simply because you stay in a
lower tax bracket and take home more per pay.

On a side note, you shouldn't use the word "Canadiens" in front of a
Toronto person - too many bitter Leafs/Habs comparisons. :-)


I gave both the french and the english spelling in an effort to not offend.
Silly me.
.


User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 03 May 2006 11:56:33 PM
On Wed, 03 May 2006 16:45:49 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:

"Sasha" <scironi@gmail.com> wrote in news:1146669298.165379.266380
@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!


No offense, Yang...I love your posts, but I have to jump in just this
once. :-) I think the wait times here in Canada have been pretty badly
over-exaggerated. I had knee surgery a couple of months ago, and had to
wait 3 days. The MRI before that? Next day service (mind you, it was at
2:30am).

Of course, my taxes don't just pay for my surgery - they pay for the
fat ***** next to me who smoked and ate himself into a severe heart
condition. Pros and cons, I guess.



How much is that health care "tax" that Canadiens/Canadians pay?

About 40% less than what an average American pays
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0289.htm
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12.5 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -2405 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
-----
"Ahhhhhh, yessssssss, ummmmmmm - Alito, Alito, Alito"
-duke (duckgumbo@cox.net), aka PedophilEarl J Weber, 59
year old mateless, heirless biological failure
of Afton Oaks Apartment, Baton Rouge,who pussied
out of the Vietnam draft, showing his gay side
despite his avowed anti-gay bigotry
Contact duke's priest and ask
him why duke is such a racist:
http://www.stpatrickbr.org/
Father Gerard "Jerry" Martin
stpatrickbr<AT>bellsouth<DOT>net
Saint Patrick Catholic Church
12424 Brogdon Lane
Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70816
.
User: "R. Pierce Butler"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 04 May 2006 05:21:05 AM
"Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in
news:2b2j52tg0pq49gnbsmk4lscfmh980v375l@4ax.com:

On Wed, 03 May 2006 16:45:49 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:

"Sasha" <scironi@gmail.com> wrote in news:1146669298.165379.266380
@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!


No offense, Yang...I love your posts, but I have to jump in just this
once. :-) I think the wait times here in Canada have been pretty
badly over-exaggerated. I had knee surgery a couple of months ago, and
had to wait 3 days. The MRI before that? Next day service (mind you,
it was at 2:30am).

Of course, my taxes don't just pay for my surgery - they pay for the
fat ***** next to me who smoked and ate himself into a severe heart
condition. Pros and cons, I guess.



How much is that health care "tax" that Canadiens/Canadians pay?



About 40% less than what an average American pays

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0289.htm

There is a saying "You get what you pay for" and in this case it is true.
.
User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 04 May 2006 09:53:21 AM
On Thu, 04 May 2006 10:21:05 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:

"Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in
news:2b2j52tg0pq49gnbsmk4lscfmh980v375l@4ax.com:

On Wed, 03 May 2006 16:45:49 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:

"Sasha" <scironi@gmail.com> wrote in news:1146669298.165379.266380
@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!


No offense, Yang...I love your posts, but I have to jump in just this
once. :-) I think the wait times here in Canada have been pretty
badly over-exaggerated. I had knee surgery a couple of months ago, and
had to wait 3 days. The MRI before that? Next day service (mind you,
it was at 2:30am).

Of course, my taxes don't just pay for my surgery - they pay for the
fat ***** next to me who smoked and ate himself into a severe heart
condition. Pros and cons, I guess.



How much is that health care "tax" that Canadiens/Canadians pay?



About 40% less than what an average American pays

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0289.htm



There is a saying "You get what you pay for" and in this case it is true.

So Canadians pay less, but somehow they live longer than Americans.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12.5 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -2405 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
-----
"Ahhhhhh, yessssssss, ummmmmmm - Alito, Alito, Alito"
-duke (duckgumbo@cox.net), aka PedophilEarl J Weber, 59
year old mateless, heirless biological failure
of Afton Oaks Apartment, Baton Rouge,who pussied
out of the Vietnam draft, showing his gay side
despite his avowed anti-gay bigotry
Contact duke's priest and ask
him why duke is such a racist:
http://www.stpatrickbr.org/
Father Gerard "Jerry" Martin
stpatrickbr<AT>bellsouth<DOT>net
Saint Patrick Catholic Church
12424 Brogdon Lane
Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70816
.
User: "Mike Painter"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 04 May 2006 01:35:10 PM
Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2006 10:21:05 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:

"Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in
news:2b2j52tg0pq49gnbsmk4lscfmh980v375l@4ax.com:

<snip>



There is a saying "You get what you pay for" and in this case it is
true.


So Canadians pay less, but somehow they live longer than Americans.

It could be explained by the fact that a huge and growing number of working
Americans have no insurance. They have to choose between food and housing or
insurance payments.
When they do get sick they can't afford the time off until they are really
sick.
Frequently even this is not incentive because they know of the horrible cost
this may incur.
The un-employed have it marginally better but they hog resources. Frequently
they have no transportation around here and can't afford a taxi so end up
calling 911 and travel by ambulance.
Our loving christian All American medical system has NO provisions for
getting those people back home and they still can't afford a taxi. That's
when nurses, EMT's and Paramedics wink at each other and the people get to
ride back in an ambulance.
Some day that will be cut off because the ambulance will be a taxi when it
should be at the scene of an incident.
But it will change soon. 10 years ago the very well paid and covered staff
at the health center in the local university was complaining about health
costs. Now the local doctors are.
.




User: "Mike Painter"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 03 May 2006 12:23:40 PM
R. Pierce Butler wrote:

"Sasha" <scironi@gmail.com> wrote in news:1146669298.165379.266380
@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!


No offense, Yang...I love your posts, but I have to jump in just this
once. :-) I think the wait times here in Canada have been pretty
badly over-exaggerated. I had knee surgery a couple of months ago,
and had to wait 3 days. The MRI before that? Next day service (mind
you, it was at 2:30am).

Of course, my taxes don't just pay for my surgery - they pay for the
fat ***** next to me who smoked and ate himself into a severe heart
condition. Pros and cons, I guess.



How much is that health care "tax" that Canadiens/Canadians pay?

Who cares, they can pay it and complain. Two or three ordinary days in a US
hospital can cost over 10 grand and it can easily run to more than you make
in a year.
On an upscale note about US hospitals as business, I found out last week end
that two years after the motorcycle helmet law was passed in California, a
local hospital shut down their head injury section due to lack of business.
.
User: "R. Pierce Butler"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 03 May 2006 01:22:40 PM
"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:wG56g.81326$dW3.69585@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com:

R. Pierce Butler wrote:

"Sasha" <scironi@gmail.com> wrote in news:1146669298.165379.266380
@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!


No offense, Yang...I love your posts, but I have to jump in just this
once. :-) I think the wait times here in Canada have been pretty
badly over-exaggerated. I had knee surgery a couple of months ago,
and had to wait 3 days. The MRI before that? Next day service (mind
you, it was at 2:30am).

Of course, my taxes don't just pay for my surgery - they pay for the
fat ***** next to me who smoked and ate himself into a severe heart
condition. Pros and cons, I guess.



How much is that health care "tax" that Canadiens/Canadians pay?


Who cares, they can pay it and complain. Two or three ordinary days in a
US hospital can cost over 10 grand and it can easily run to more than
you make in a year.

On an upscale note about US hospitals as business, I found out last week
end that two years after the motorcycle helmet law was passed in
California, a local hospital shut down their head injury section due to
lack of business.



Since the repeal of the mandatory helmt law in Texas, motorcycle
registrations have nearly doubled. Illinois has not had a helmet law.
.
User: "Rev. Prunefinger"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 03 May 2006 02:22:28 PM
"R. Pierce Butler" <spamsucks@google.com> wrote in message
news:Xns97B8881697699mc2500183316chgoill@10.232.1.1...
[psnip]
: Since the repeal of the mandatory helmt law in Texas, motorcycle
: registrations have nearly doubled. Illinois has not had a helmet
law.
You must not live in Illinois, or are too young to remember, eh? When
Gov. Ogilvie signed that law, motorcyclists circled the capital...and
it only lasted a few months.
http://www.bikersrights.com/states/illinois/illinois.html
"Apparently what happened was that in 1968, Illinois put in a helmet
law like all the other states (except California), but when the
statute was challenged in court, the Illinois Supreme Court ruled the
law an abuse of the police power, and therefore void because it was
unconstitutional."
.

User: "Mike Painter"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 03 May 2006 02:16:07 PM
R. Pierce Butler wrote:

"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:wG56g.81326$dW3.69585@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com:

R. Pierce Butler wrote:

"Sasha" <scironi@gmail.com> wrote in news:1146669298.165379.266380
@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!


No offense, Yang...I love your posts, but I have to jump in just
this once. :-) I think the wait times here in Canada have been
pretty badly over-exaggerated. I had knee surgery a couple of
months ago, and had to wait 3 days. The MRI before that? Next day
service (mind you, it was at 2:30am).

Of course, my taxes don't just pay for my surgery - they pay for
the fat ***** next to me who smoked and ate himself into a
severe heart condition. Pros and cons, I guess.



How much is that health care "tax" that Canadiens/Canadians pay?


Who cares, they can pay it and complain. Two or three ordinary days
in a US hospital can cost over 10 grand and it can easily run to
more than you make in a year.

On an upscale note about US hospitals as business, I found out last
week end that two years after the motorcycle helmet law was passed in
California, a local hospital shut down their head injury section due
to lack of business.




Since the repeal of the mandatory helmt law in Texas, motorcycle
registrations have nearly doubled. Illinois has not had a helmet law.

In EMS motorcycle riders are called "donors".
Most of us guessed wrong but riding a horse is about six times more
dangerous on an hourly basis.
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 04 May 2006 09:35:15 PM
On Wed, 03 May 2006 19:16:07 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in alt.atheism

R. Pierce Butler wrote:

"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:wG56g.81326$dW3.69585@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com:

[]

How much is that health care "tax" that Canadiens/Canadians pay?


Who cares, they can pay it and complain. Two or three ordinary days
in a US hospital can cost over 10 grand and it can easily run to
more than you make in a year.

On an upscale note about US hospitals as business, I found out last
week end that two years after the motorcycle helmet law was passed in
California, a local hospital shut down their head injury section due
to lack of business.

Since the repeal of the mandatory helmt law in Texas, motorcycle
registrations have nearly doubled. Illinois has not had a helmet law.


In EMS motorcycle riders are called "donors".
Most of us guessed wrong but riding a horse is about six times more
dangerous on an hourly basis.

I've ridden motorcycles in states without a skid lid law and kept mine
on. That was my decision.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.





User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 03 May 2006 10:18:45 AM
On 3 May 2006 08:14:58 -0700, "Sasha" <scironi@gmail.com> wrote:

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!


No offense, Yang...I love your posts, but I have to jump in just this
once. :-) I think the wait times here in Canada have been pretty badly
over-exaggerated. I had knee surgery a couple of months ago, and had to
wait 3 days. The MRI before that? Next day service (mind you, it was at
2:30am).

My comment was meant as snark. not actaul description of Candian
healthcard system.
The NeoCons badly exaggerate the waiting times anywhere else. You hear
about the same quick trunaround time in Spain France etc, for teh
simply fact that unlike the US, the doctors there don't need an army
of paper pushers filling out ridiculous amount of duplicate forms.

Of course, my taxes don't just pay for my surgery - they pay for the
fat ***** next to me who smoked and ate himself into a severe heart
condition. Pros and cons, I guess.

-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12.5 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -2405 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
-----
"Ahhhhhh, yessssssss, ummmmmmm - Alito, Alito, Alito"
-duke (duckgumbo@cox.net), aka PedophilEarl J Weber, 59
year old mateless, heirless biological failure
of Afton Oaks Apartment, Baton Rouge,who pussied
out of the Vietnam draft, showing his gay side
despite his avowed anti-gay bigotry
Contact duke's priest and ask
him why duke is such a racist:
http://www.stpatrickbr.org/
Father Gerard "Jerry" Martin
stpatrickbr<AT>bellsouth<DOT>net
Saint Patrick Catholic Church
12424 Brogdon Lane
Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70816
.


User: "stoney"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 04 May 2006 09:13:58 PM
On Wed, 03 May 2006 07:36:25 -0700, "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in
alt.atheism

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-kaiser3may03,0,7436765,full.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Kaiser Put Kidney Patients at Risk
By opening its own transplant center in the Bay Area, the HMO harmed
recipients' odds of obtaining organs, a Times probe finds.
By Charles Ornstein and Tracy Weber, Times Staff Writers
May 3, 2006

In mid-2004, more than 1,500 Kaiser Permanente patients awaiting
kidney transplants in Northern California got form letters that forced
them to change the course of their treatment.

Kaiser would no longer pay for transplants at outside hospitals, even
established programs with thousands of successes. Instead, adult
patients would be transferred to a new transplant center run by Kaiser
itself — the first ever opened by the nation's largest HMO.

....Kaiser's massive rollout in Northern California endangered
patients, forcing them into a fledgling program unprepared to handle
the caseload, according to a Los Angeles Times investigation based on
dozens of interviews, statistical analyses and confidential documents.

Within months after Kaiser's kidney program in San Francisco started up,
its waiting list ranked among the longest in the country. No other
center had ever put together such a list so fast.
The patients didn't know it, but their odds of getting a kidney had
plummeted.
Kaiser's massive rollout in Northern California endangered patients,
forcing them into a fledgling program unprepared to handle the caseload,
according to a Times investigation based on statistical analyses,
confidential documents and dozens of interviews.
Hundreds of patients were stuck in transplant limbo for months because
Kaiser failed to properly handle paperwork. Meanwhile, doctors
attempting to build a record of success shied away from riskier organs
and patients, slowing the rate of transplants performed.
National transplant regulators apparently did not notice the program's
failures, though some were obvious in the statistics the regulators
themselves posted on the Internet.
In 2005, the program's first full year, Kaiser performed only 56
transplants, while twice that many people on the waiting list died,
according to a Times analysis of national transplant statistics.
At transplant centers statewide, the pattern was the reverse: More than
twice as many people received kidneys than died.
Kaiser also suffered by comparison to the two outside hospitals that
previously had tended to its Northern California patients. In each of
the two years before Kaiser opened its program, UC San Francisco and UC
Davis medical centers together performed at least 168 transplants on
Kaiser patients, three times as many as Kaiser managed in its first full
year.
"If they couldn't handle as many as they were doing before, they should
have just transferred some" patients, said Neva Smith, whose daughter,
Alison Bertino, was moved to Kaiser from UC San Francisco.
Bertino, 30, died last June while waiting for a kidney.
It is difficult to say whether she or any other Kaiser patients died as
a direct result of the program's faltering start. What is clear is that
many fewer patients received transplants than before, forcing them to
remain on grueling sessions of dialysis to remove impurities from their
blood. Prolonged dialysis can lead to deadly complications and decrease
the chances of a successful transplant later.
The problems at Kaiser went beyond mere growing pains, current and
former employees said: Surgeons and kidney specialists battled over who
should receive transplants. Desperate patients complained of
inexplicable delays. Since the program opened, 10 permanent employees
have quit or been fired out of a staff of 22.
"On the outside, the program seems to have settled into a reasonably
functioning unit," kidney specialist Dr. W. James Chon wrote to the
hospital's physician-in-chief Jan. 23, not long before he was placed on
administrative leave.
"However, a closer look at the program will show that it is suffering
from very serious and potentially explosive problems," he said.
In interviews with The Times, Kaiser officials initially denied that
there were problems. "Everything has been going on track," head
transplant surgeon Arturo Martinez said last week.
Since then, other officials have acknowledged that the program had
provided The Times with incomplete or misleading information. The chief
physician at Kaiser's main San Francisco hospital conceded that the
issues were "very serious."
"Time will tell whether 'explosive' was an appropriate adjective or
not," said Dr. Bruce Blumberg, referring to Chon's letter.
But, he said, the problems have not affected care for the patients on
the waiting list, now totaling about 2,000. No patients have died after
transplants, and surgeons hope to boost their output to about 90
transplants this year, Blumberg said.
"I'm very pleased at the work done by the transplant program in the
first year," he said.
Kaiser's troubled launch — coming to light after scandals forced the
closure of two transplant programs in Southern California last year —
underscores the dearth of oversight in the field of transplantation.
Leaders of the United Network for Organ Sharing, the federally funded
group responsible for the nation's organ transplant system, said they
knew nothing of Kaiser's woes until The Times contacted them.
Dr. Andrew Klein, director of transplant programs at Cedars-Sinai
Medical Center in Los Angeles and a member of the network's board, said
moving patients to new centers should never compromise the care they
receive.
Just "because they had to change centers they shouldn't have to change
their [chances] of getting transplanted," he said.
'Timing Was Perfect'
The jump into transplants made good sense for Kaiser.
The San Francisco hospital's open-heart surgery program was shrinking as
less-invasive procedures became more popular. Kaiser was left with
unused beds and operating rooms. By chance, Martinez, a transplant
surgeon at Sharp Memorial Hospital in San Diego, broached the idea with
Kaiser officials in early 2002.
"The timing was perfect," Blumberg said.
In August 2003, officials told the media that they could do a better job
for their kidney transplant patients by working with the network of
doctors, labs and pharmacies serving Kaiser's 3.2 million members in
Northern California. (Kaiser still contracts with outside hospitals to
serve transplant patients in Southern California and elsewhere.)
"We should be able to achieve higher outcomes," Dr. Sharon Inokuchi, the
transplant program's new medical director told the San Francisco
Business Times at the time. In the long run, officials said recently,
they believed they could save money too.
Kaiser members are part of a unique healthcare entity that runs both a
health plan and a hospital system. Except in rare circumstances, members
get their care only from Kaiser hospitals and affiliated Permanente
medical group doctors.
In June 2004, Kaiser informed kidney patients on waiting lists at UC San
Francisco and UC Davis that from then on their transplants would take
place at Kaiser's hospital northeast of Golden Gate Park in San
Francisco. The first transplant was performed that October.
Relatives of some patients recalled the letters offering no promises and
little comfort.
Patient Rodney Clay's letter began with the salutation, "Dear Clay,
Rodney," and warned: "You will be financially responsible for any kidney
transplant services you receive from the University of California, San
Francisco, after Sept. 1, 2004."
Clay died in September 2005 after being forced to move to Kaiser and
then being shifted back to UC San Francisco because of complications.
"It was just messy the way that they handled it," said his wife,
Deborah. "We were in a state of shock."
Art Hanson also complained about the handoff. He said his life partner,
Rodante Tolentino, "got in a snit" with Kaiser officials.
"They wanted him to break his ties [with UC San Francisco] and have
nothing to do with them, and it was like, 'You either do what we say or
screw you,' " Hanson said. Tolentino, who had been on UC San Francisco's
list since 1998, grew tired of waiting and went to the Philippines in
search of a transplant last fall. By that time, he was too sick, Hanson
said. Tolentino refused dialysis and his medications and died in
November at age 61.
Hope Turns to Dismay
Not everyone was dismayed about the switch to Kaiser.
When Ruben Porras, a pressman at the Sacramento Bee, found out that he
was being transferred from UC Davis, his family thought it might improve
his chances of getting a transplant, said his wife, Elizabeth.
After three years on the waiting list at UC Davis, he was close to
getting a new kidney there.
"It's likely that he would have been transplanted fairly soon," said Dr.
Richard Perez, chief of the UC Davis transplant center.
The family's anticipation soon turned to frustration.
"Nothing happened," Elizabeth Porras said. "Everything stood still. I
lost faith in it all."
Although her husband, who was in his 40s, was on the list for a cadaver
kidney, several of his relatives were willing to donate one of their own
kidneys, and UC Davis had been assessing them, she said. That process
halted when Kaiser took over Porras' case and relatives' calls went
unreturned, she added.
Porras and 66 other UC Davis patients unwittingly faced another
obstacle. Organs are distributed regionally, and the waiting time for a
kidney in the crowded San Francisco area is about double that in the
Sacramento area, where UC Davis is. Elizabeth Porras said her husband
was never told that his wait would jump from about three years to a
possible six with the move to Kaiser's new center.
The transfer hurt Porras' chances in another way.
In the San Francisco area, kidneys are primarily allocated based on how
much time patients have spent on a master waiting list. When patients
switch to other programs, it is essential that they get credit for the
time they've already spent waiting. Otherwise it will appear that they
are new additions with no seniority, and their waits will start from
scratch.
In Porras' case, Kaiser took nearly a year to transfer the time he had
spent on the waiting list at UC Davis, Perez said. That meant he landed
at the bottom of the list in the San Francisco area, putting a new
kidney out of reach any time soon.
The same was true for hundreds of others at UC Davis and UC San
Francisco who were stranded between programs for months by Kaiser's
delays or paperwork snafus, the Times investigation found.
Even today, UC San Francisco has about 220 Kaiser patients on its list
whose time has not been properly transferred to Kaiser, said Dr. Stephen
Tomlanovich, medical director of the university medical center's renal
transplant service.
Tomlanovich said UC San Francisco has contacted Kaiser's Inokuchi or her
co-workers repeatedly by phone, fax and e-mail concerning the patients.
But Inokuchi said she has never heard from the university hospital about
these patients.
Regarding Porras' case, Inokuchi said she could not comment because of
confidentiality restrictions.
But chief surgeon Martinez said, "We made every possible effort to make
sure that people were not caught in the middle."
Unaware of this fumbling, Porras was tethered to dialysis, weathering
one complication after another.
"There's no other life out there for you other than being treated," his
wife said. "He had no energy to do anything, go anywhere or do things
for himself."
Cost of Survival Rate
One statistic Kaiser proudly cites is its patients' survival rate after
transplantation: None of its patients have died in the year after their
surgeries.
"I got great care there," said Hamilton Meek, 56, who got his kidney at
Kaiser in March. "I just knew it was a matter of time before I got the
kidney."
Maintaining that survival record, however, appears to have come at a
price.
Through June 2005, Kaiser accepted only 16.7% of the kidney offers on
behalf of its patients, far less than neighboring programs: California
Pacific Medical Center accepted 29.5% and UC San Francisco 24.1% in the
same reporting period.
Many experienced programs, with the consent of patients, also accept
organs from a separate pool of risky donors — older people, for
instance, or people with health problems. The idea is to cut patients'
waits.
Kaiser almost never tapped into this pool, which supplied kidneys for
15% of transplants in the Bay Area last year, according to the local
organ bank. Through December, Kaiser had accepted just one.
Kaiser chief surgeon Martinez said that's because only one patient had
signed up.
Officials from UC Davis and UC San Francisco said their numbers show
that many Kaiser patients had, in fact, been interested. At UC Davis,
before Kaiser started its program, 20 Kaiser patients had signed up for
the organs; at UC San Francisco, 23.
Ella Haynes said her husband, Ronald, had signed up to receive two of
these riskier kidneys at UC Davis. But when he transferred to Kaiser,
the couple were told that the former Central Valley trucker "would be
better served to wait it out and get one good kidney."
"You just believe what you hear and what you're told," Ella Haynes said.
In March 2005, her husband died of a blood infection.
Although he never knew it, he didn't have a chance. His 2 1/2 -year wait
at UC Davis was never transferred to Kaiser, said Perez of UC Davis,
effectively shutting him out of a transplant.
Staff Infighting
Inside the Kaiser center, the stress of jump-starting the massive
program took a toll.
Although Kaiser officials had brought in experienced physicians, much of
the core staff had never worked with transplant patients — or one
another.
In early 2005, the program's first transplant administrator left. Barely
a year later, her replacement was terminated.
One kidney specialist, Dr. Eric Savransky, walked off the job this
February, cleared out his office and has not returned, colleagues said.
Officials say he is technically on leave.
Chon, the physician who complained of potentially explosive problems,
was also put on leave in February after feuding with medical director
Inokuchi about the way the program was being run, current and former
employees said.
In his January letter to the hospital's top physician, Chon described
staffers battling over which patients should receive transplants.
One 73-year-old woman, he wrote, had been waiting, initially at UC San
Francisco, since 1999. Chon said he and his colleagues felt that
although she was a high-risk patient, she was a viable candidate. But
Inokuchi refused to sign off, he wrote, until she saw additional medical
records — which Chon said were irrelevant.
"I truly believe that [Inokuchi's] decision to overrule four other
transplant physicians was unjust and unethical," he wrote in his letter.
In an interview, Inokuchi said Chon had "incomplete information" and
could not make a proper assessment. Chon said he stands by his letter.
The patient's daughter, Karen Sorensen, said she is incensed at Kaiser's
treatment of her mother, Corra Mayo. First, she said, no one from the
hospital tried to contact Mayo for eight months after she was
transferred from UC San Francisco, where she had been near the top of
the waiting list since early 2004.
Then, Sorensen said, Kaiser staff couldn't find Mayo's medical records
and didn't return repeated phone calls. Finally, the daughter said, she
begged a receptionist for help and her mother got an appointment with
Chon.
"They had too many people to handle, and they don't know how to handle
them," Sorensen said.
Mayo, now 74, has been undergoing dialysis three times a week. "It's the
worst way to live," Sorensen said. Late Monday, Mayo was called into the
hospital to be prepared for a transplant, but it is unclear whether she
will receive one.
Blumberg, the hospital's ranking physician, said the dispute over Mayo's
care demonstrates the staff infighting plaguing the program.
He also said Inokuchi had been "relieved" of her administrative duties
to focus on patient care. He did not elaborate.
With all the departures, Inokuchi is the only kidney specialist left to
manage patients' care in the hospital after their transplants, see them
for checkups, handle calls for medical advice, review lab results and
evaluate patients.
Blumberg said he is seeking additional kidney specialists, called
nephrologists, and has offers out to two.
Transplant surgeons at other hospitals say programs of Kaiser's size
would have trouble functioning without at least four or five transplant
nephrologists. Cedars-Sinai, for example, has a waiting list less than a
quarter the size of Kaiser's but has three nephrologists and is hiring a
fourth.
Too Late for Patient
That Kaiser's problems are now becoming public is of little comfort to
Elizabeth Porras.
Last fall, her husband developed an infection related to his dialysis.
Despite attempts to treat it, he died Oct. 20 at age 47.
Each Sunday, she takes roses to his grave.
Her last contact with Kaiser came right after Ruben's death. A
representative called to ask if she would donate his organs.
"I was really close to telling them, 'Yeah, you can have his kidneys,' "
she said.
/end
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.

User: ""

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 03 May 2006 09:55:02 AM
Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-kaiser3may03,0,7436765,full.story?coll=la-home-headlines

In mid-2004, more than 1,500 Kaiser Permanente patients awaiting
kidney transplants in Northern California got form letters that forced
them to change the course of their treatment.

Kaiser would no longer pay for transplants at outside hospitals, even
established programs with thousands of successes. Instead, adult
patients would be transferred to a new transplant center run by Kaiser
itself - the first ever opened by the nation's largest HMO.

Why wait a few weeks for a successful operation in Canada when
you can be permanently rejected from it in the US within a day?
Bob Dog
-----
"Easily the biggest challenge facing the ID community
is to develop a full-fledged theory of biological
design. We don't have such a theory right now, and
that's a real problem. Without a theory, it's very
hard to know where to direct your research focus."
- Paul Nelson, creationist
and anti-science advocate
"Maybe he needs a new version of the Ten Commandments
-- George W. Bush's Ten Commandments:
Thou shalt not steal...votes.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's...country.
Thou shalt not kill...for oil.
Thou shalt not take grammar...in vain."
- Margaret Cho
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 04 May 2006 09:30:21 PM
On 3 May 2006 07:55:02 -0700,
wrote in alt.atheism

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-kaiser3may03,0,7436765,full.story?coll=la-home-headlines

In mid-2004, more than 1,500 Kaiser Permanente patients awaiting
kidney transplants in Northern California got form letters that forced
them to change the course of their treatment.

Kaiser would no longer pay for transplants at outside hospitals, even
established programs with thousands of successes. Instead, adult
patients would be transferred to a new transplant center run by Kaiser
itself - the first ever opened by the nation's largest HMO.


Why wait a few weeks for a successful operation in Canada when
you can be permanently rejected from it in the US within a day?

And die lingeringly for the Kaiser's prophet$.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.

User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 03 May 2006 10:21:04 AM
On 3 May 2006 07:55:02 -0700,
wrote:

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-kaiser3may03,0,7436765,full.story?coll=la-home-headlines

In mid-2004, more than 1,500 Kaiser Permanente patients awaiting
kidney transplants in Northern California got form letters that forced
them to change the course of their treatment.

Kaiser would no longer pay for transplants at outside hospitals, even
established programs with thousands of successes. Instead, adult
patients would be transferred to a new transplant center run by Kaiser
itself - the first ever opened by the nation's largest HMO.


Why wait a few weeks for a successful operation in Canada when
you can be permanently rejected from it in the US within a day?

Well, as the othe poster has obesreved, waiting line in Canda is
measured in days rather than hours, which means that US HMOs have to
reject people faster just to keep up!
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12.5 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -2405 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
-----
"Ahhhhhh, yessssssss, ummmmmmm - Alito, Alito, Alito"
-duke (duckgumbo@cox.net), aka PedophilEarl J Weber, 59
year old mateless, heirless biological failure
of Afton Oaks Apartment, Baton Rouge,who pussied
out of the Vietnam draft, showing his gay side
despite his avowed anti-gay bigotry
Contact duke's priest and ask
him why duke is such a racist:
http://www.stpatrickbr.org/
Father Gerard "Jerry" Martin
stpatrickbr<AT>bellsouth<DOT>net
Saint Patrick Catholic Church
12424 Brogdon Lane
Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70816
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 04 May 2006 09:30:50 PM
On Wed, 03 May 2006 08:21:04 -0700, "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in
alt.atheism

On 3 May 2006 07:55:02 -0700,

wrote:

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-kaiser3may03,0,7436765,full.story?coll=la-home-headlines

In mid-2004, more than 1,500 Kaiser Permanente patients awaiting
kidney transplants in Northern California got form letters that forced
them to change the course of their treatment.

Kaiser would no longer pay for transplants at outside hospitals, even
established programs with thousands of successes. Instead, adult
patients would be transferred to a new transplant center run by Kaiser
itself - the first ever opened by the nation's largest HMO.


Why wait a few weeks for a successful operation in Canada when
you can be permanently rejected from it in the US within a day?



Well, as the othe poster has obesreved, waiting line in Canda is
measured in days rather than hours, which means that US HMOs have to
reject people faster just to keep up!

They are working dilligently on that.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 05 May 2006 01:48:21 AM
On Thu, 04 May 2006 19:30:50 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:

On Wed, 03 May 2006 08:21:04 -0700, "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in
alt.atheism

On 3 May 2006 07:55:02 -0700,

wrote:

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

But you have to wait in line for a hip replacement in Canada!

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-kaiser3may03,0,7436765,full.story?coll=la-home-headlines

In mid-2004, more than 1,500 Kaiser Permanente patients awaiting
kidney transplants in Northern California got form letters that forced
them to change the course of their treatment.

Kaiser would no longer pay for transplants at outside hospitals, even
established programs with thousands of successes. Instead, adult
patients would be transferred to a new transplant center run by Kaiser
itself - the first ever opened by the nation's largest HMO.


Why wait a few weeks for a successful operation in Canada when
you can be permanently rejected from it in the US within a day?



Well, as the othe poster has obesreved, waiting line in Canda is
measured in days rather than hours, which means that US HMOs have to
reject people faster just to keep up!


They are working dilligently on that.

The brave new world!
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12.5 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -2410 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
-----
"Ahhhhhh, yessssssss, ummmmmmm - Alito, Alito, Alito"
-duke (duckgumbo@cox.net), aka PedophilEarl J Weber, 59
year old mateless, heirless biological failure
of Afton Oaks Apartment, Baton Rouge,who pussied
out of the Vietnam draft, showing his gay side
despite his avowed anti-gay bigotry
Contact duke's priest and ask
him why duke is such a racist:
http://www.stpatrickbr.org/
Father Gerard "Jerry" Martin
stpatrickbr<AT>bellsouth<DOT>net
Saint Patrick Catholic Church
12424 Brogdon Lane
Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70816
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: Because There is No Waiting Line in Our Excellent Privatized Health Care System 05 May 2006 11:55:37 AM