| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
11 Jun 2006 10:11:04 AM |
| Object: |
Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/10/17/085114.php
Belief in God is Protection against the Gulag
October 17, 2005
Tom Donelson
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge." Jewish Proverbs
What happens when people desert their belief in God? Some of those
questions were answered in a History channel special on Hitler's
Managers. Why did Ferdinand Porsche, automotive genius or Wernher Von
Braun, a rocket pioneer, allowed their skills to be used by Hitler?
What about Albert Speer, the architect? The German people simply
ignored the God of Christianity and replaced it with the worship of
Hitler.
Albert Speer saw a kindred spirit in Hitler. Both men consider
themselves artist and Speer was willing to forsake what was moral for
power and fame. Speer worshiped Hitler. Speer, Porsche and Von Braun
were willing to use slave labor to further their goals and participate
in a criminal regime. Speer became Hitler's armament minister; Von
Braun developed Hitler's missiles and Porsche manufactured Hitler's
tanks.
It has been said that if people don't believe in God, they will believe
in something else just as fervently. In the 20th century, we saw very
clearly what a society without God looked like. In the atheistic Soviet
Empire, millions died in Gulag and Pot Pol slaughtered nearly a quarter
of the Cambodian people in a murderous rage.
It is intellectual conceit to assume that a belief in God is the
equivalent to the belief in superstition and that somehow no belief is
intellectual superiority. A pundit once observed that those who don't
believe in God find belief in astrology or communicating with the dead.
For some of the greatest minds, life made sense if it was created by
design as oppose by chance. Does one truly believe that our existence
is simply due to chance? To the flip of a coin?
Then there is the political side to it all. In his 2003 State of the
Union address, President Bush stated, "The liberty we prize is not
America's gift to the world; it is God's gift to humanity." Our
liberties are bestowed upon us by our Creator and can't be taken away
by government. Government is not the state but one player within the
greater society. Many critics of organized religion points out the
horror brought on by religion and certainly the radical Islamic
fundamentalism has only added fuel to their arguments. More horror has
been committed in the absence of God when compared to the horror
committed in his name.
In studying Jewish-Christian tradition, there is one clear aspect. Even
those in the highest authorities are subject to God's commands. All are
equal under the law and in punishment. No one escapes God's punishment
and all benefit from his mercy. Having even the highest authorities
under God's commands presumes that no one man or woman can ever be
granted unlimited power.
The American experiment has encouraged this ideal. Freedom of religion
allowed different religions to live in peace with an understanding that
the state would be neutral in the exercise of religion but not prohibit
it from the public square. The government is not granted unlimited
power and the goal of a just government is to protect the rights of
individuals.
A Jewish friend of mine observed to me that only God could come up with
the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments form the basis of any just
society and many of our laws has its own basis in the simplicity of
those commandments A belief in God is the beginning of understanding
our own limitation. The failure of the 20th century is one of conceit
and the rejection of God has not led to utopia but to the Gulag.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is Our Gulag |
11 Jun 2006 02:54:36 PM |
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Concentration camps were invented by Christians.
Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/10/17/085114.php
Belief in God is Protection against the Gulag
October 17, 2005
Tom Donelson
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge." Jewish Proverbs
What happens when people desert their belief in God? Some of those
questions were answered in a History channel special on Hitler's
Managers. Why did Ferdinand Porsche, automotive genius or Wernher Von
Braun, a rocket pioneer, allowed their skills to be used by Hitler?
What about Albert Speer, the architect? The German people simply
ignored the God of Christianity and replaced it with the worship of
Hitler.
Albert Speer saw a kindred spirit in Hitler. Both men consider
themselves artist and Speer was willing to forsake what was moral for
power and fame. Speer worshiped Hitler. Speer, Porsche and Von Braun
were willing to use slave labor to further their goals and participate
in a criminal regime. Speer became Hitler's armament minister; Von
Braun developed Hitler's missiles and Porsche manufactured Hitler's
tanks.
It has been said that if people don't believe in God, they will believe
in something else just as fervently. In the 20th century, we saw very
clearly what a society without God looked like. In the atheistic Soviet
Empire, millions died in Gulag and Pot Pol slaughtered nearly a quarter
of the Cambodian people in a murderous rage.
It is intellectual conceit to assume that a belief in God is the
equivalent to the belief in superstition and that somehow no belief is
intellectual superiority. A pundit once observed that those who don't
believe in God find belief in astrology or communicating with the dead.
For some of the greatest minds, life made sense if it was created by
design as oppose by chance. Does one truly believe that our existence
is simply due to chance? To the flip of a coin?
Then there is the political side to it all. In his 2003 State of the
Union address, President Bush stated, "The liberty we prize is not
America's gift to the world; it is God's gift to humanity." Our
liberties are bestowed upon us by our Creator and can't be taken away
by government. Government is not the state but one player within the
greater society. Many critics of organized religion points out the
horror brought on by religion and certainly the radical Islamic
fundamentalism has only added fuel to their arguments. More horror has
been committed in the absence of God when compared to the horror
committed in his name.
In studying Jewish-Christian tradition, there is one clear aspect. Even
those in the highest authorities are subject to God's commands. All are
equal under the law and in punishment. No one escapes God's punishment
and all benefit from his mercy. Having even the highest authorities
under God's commands presumes that no one man or woman can ever be
granted unlimited power.
The American experiment has encouraged this ideal. Freedom of religion
allowed different religions to live in peace with an understanding that
the state would be neutral in the exercise of religion but not prohibit
it from the public square. The government is not granted unlimited
power and the goal of a just government is to protect the rights of
individuals.
A Jewish friend of mine observed to me that only God could come up with
the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments form the basis of any just
society and many of our laws has its own basis in the simplicity of
those commandments A belief in God is the beginning of understanding
our own limitation. The failure of the 20th century is one of conceit
and the rejection of God has not led to utopia but to the Gulag.
.
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
11 Jun 2006 11:58:50 AM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, Sound of Trumpet poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
Belief in God is Protection against the Gulag
It is said that most of the prisoners of the Russian Gulag were
christian.
Also:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0118/p09s01-coop.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney01032005.html
Regards,
Josef
Those who believe absurdities end up committing atrocities.
-- Voltaire
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
11 Jun 2006 01:34:38 PM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, Sound of Trumpet poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
[ snip ]
Two words for you, WoT/SoT .................... Spanish Inquisition.
( Please pardon my use of an obscenity )
Regards,
Josef
I consider Christianity to be one of the great disasters of the human
race.
-- Alfred North Whitehead
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| User: "Big Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
11 Jun 2006 06:04:02 PM |
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"Josef Balluch" <josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ef62c45aa1991e29896a2@aioe.cjb.net...
In a message sent 'round the world, Sound of Trumpet poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
[ snip ]
Two words for you, WoT/SoT .................... Spanish Inquisition.
( Please pardon my use of an obscenity )
I tried to find reference to WoT/Sot, but found only The Wheel of Time,
a novel by a guy named Jordan, and some math theory of Normal Operator
Topology, Strong Operator Topology, and Weak Operator Topology. Also saw
some references to writing where user was asking for no WoT/SoT.
Now, I imagine the latter would be more correct in this, but I am still
at a loss as to the meaning behind WoT/SoT.
Could you be a mate and help me out?
Thanks,
David H.
#2217
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
11 Jun 2006 06:36:41 PM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, Big Dave poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
Now, I imagine the latter would be more correct in this, but I am still
at a loss as to the meaning behind WoT/SoT.
Could you be a mate and help me out?
Thanks,
David H.
#2217
This particular troll used to call itself Words of Truth, or WoT. Now it
is Sound of Trumpet, or SoT.
Regards,
Josef
All progress has been essentially the unmasking of divinity and
mystery, or alleged sacred eternal truth.
-- Emma Goldman
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| User: "Big Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
11 Jun 2006 08:33:53 PM |
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"Josef Balluch" <josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ef67317d62b600b9896a4@aioe.cjb.net...
In a message sent 'round the world, Big Dave poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
Now, I imagine the latter would be more correct in this, but I am still
at a loss as to the meaning behind WoT/SoT.
Could you be a mate and help me out?
Thanks,
David H.
#2217
This particular troll used to call itself Words of Truth, or WoT. Now it
is Sound of Trumpet, or SoT.
Ahh. Thanks.
David H.
#2217
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
11 Jun 2006 09:51:19 PM |
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Josef Balluch wrote:
In a message sent 'round the world, Sound of Trumpet poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
[ snip ]
Two words for you, WoT/SoT .................... Spanish Inquisition.
( Please pardon my use of an obscenity )
We don't have to go that far back. The failures of
American Christianity since Nixon to confront
horrors such as GOP support for genocidal dictators
shows us being Christian is not enough.
***********************************************************
The Failure of Christianity in America
W. C . Barwell 3-8-05
***********************************************************
Since Nixon, this nation has rapidly moved quite far to the
right, taken there mainly by christian right wingers who have
fully supported the GOP as it has moved specifically to
gain support of christian right wingers. This started when
Nixon played the racist Southern Strategy card building on
civil rights era resentments by far right Southerners.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/2/23/172743.shtml
Conservative Southerners were very religious.
The turn towards Christian conservatives accelerated
under Reagan, who skillfully played the religious card and the
religious right joined the GOP-Reagan revolution that still
is a major influence. That has given the GOP control of Congress
for years, especially thanks to Newt Gingrich and Trent Lott
who gained control of the Congress, House and Senate in 1995
with full support of the politicized religious right.
So we now have had a essentially a christian-GOP government
for 30 years. We had large right wing Christian movements
who were formed expressedly for political reasons to move
America right and to empower America conservative religionists,
and they have been largely successful.
RICHARD M. NIXON - GERALD FORD.
Christian denominations largely supported incompetent
and corrupt Vietnamese politicians. And a senseless war
in Vietnam that accomplished nothing, run by incompetents.
Nixon instigated awful and murderous policies as the CIA
run program Phoenix program of assassinations and murder.
Supported the secret bombings in Cambodia that killed
an estimated 600,000 innocent Cambodians.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=cambodia
Winked at the invasion of East Timur and parts of New
Guinea by our allies, the Indonesians.
The Indonesians killed 1/3 of the Timurese over several
decades, mass murder, genocide. 168,000 dead.
http://www.yale.edu/gsp/east_timor/unverdict.html
Winked at the Greek far right Junta that overthrew the
Greek government.
Supported the murderous far right Brazilian generals who
overthrew that democratically elected government in Brazil.
Supported the mass murdering Argentinian government and
their terroristic "Dirty War" of torture, mass murder
and disappearances.
Supported the murderous Pinochet of Chile, whom the US
helped overthrow Chile's democratically elected government.
No complaints about Pinochet's tortures and killings are
to be heard from Nixon, Reagan, or later Bush or the GOP
leaders of Senate and House.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/chile/index.html
Not many Christian denominations respected life here.
Or freedom. But supported Nixon heartily despite the
horrors we committed in Vietnam and Cambodia and Chile
and winked at support for others mentioned above.
No major religious denominations nor their leaders
spoke out and drew a line at any of this. Despite Nixon
and GOP support for such things, he easily won re-election.
RONALD REAGAN 1981 - 1989
Ronald Reagan came to power largely because of the
religious right's politicization and support.
Throughout his administration Ronald Reagan supported
Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge as the official government
of note in Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge delegation
as the official UN delegation of Cambodia to the UN.
Aid is funneled to the Khmer Rouge including $81 million
dollars, and food and uniforms funneled through aid
organizations. Reagan winked as China rearmed Pol Pot,
and leaned on nations not to send aid to Cambodia despite
the devastation of nearly 1/3 of Cambodia's population
killed by Pol Pot's genocidal regime.
Early in his administration Reagan lead the GOP in
support for military aid to the genocidal Rios Montt
of Guatemala, who practiced wholesale mass torture,
mass rape mass murder and genocide on the Mayan Indians
of Guatemala.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/daily/march99/guatemala11.htm
Reagan and the GOP supported the mass murdering ex-Somoza
Guards of Nicaragua.
Reagan and the GOP supported Saddam Hussein of Iraq.
Reagan and the GOP supported the murderous Robert
D'Aubisson of El Salvador, a known far right death
squad leader.
The El Salvadoran government was involved in numerous
murders, and massacres, such as the killing of 400
villagers at a small village called El Mezote, most
of them young women and children.
http://www.usip.org/library/tc/doc/reports/el_salvador/tc_es_03151993_chron1.html
Reagan and the GOP supported Noriega of Panama.
Reagan and the GOP supported a number of murdering
far right extremist guerrilla movements in Africa including
the genocidal RENAMO in Mozambique.
The Christian and religious right heavily supported Reagan
and the GOP despite numerous examples of such evils as
listed above. The leaders of the religious right never cared
nor complained, neither did the religious leaders of the
main stream christian denominations make any effort
to stand up and denounce these outrageous policies.
The members of major denominations made no effort to
complain and demand their religious leaders react to
support for genocidal mass murderers.
There was and is no respect for life in organized American
christianity as these wholesale and repeat failures of
America christianity collectively over 20 years shows.
Many churches and denominations whole-heartedly support
Reagan and the GOP despite these horrors, and many
actively worked for Reagan's re-election and support of GOP
candidates, passing out tens of millions of voters' guides
slanted to support of far right GOP candiates and policies.
GEORGE W. BUSH
Bush continued support for the evil dictators above,
including Pinochet, Pol Pot and others. However,
Saddam screwed us and invaded Kuwait, mainly because
Bush screwed up and did not warn him to not do so
as Hussein repeatedly threatened to invade Kuwait
for nearly two months and coolly noted Bush's lack
of much response.
Bush did not act in case of genocide by Yugoslavia's
Milosevic, and Bush and the GOP's loud and obnoxious
foot-dragging here allowed Milosevic to kill
hundreds of thousands with near impunity.
The leaders of the GOP, House and Senate, and religious
leaders of the right and mainstream denominations never
cared about any of this. never made an issue out of it.
In the Desert Storm war, Bush allowed the US air
force to bomb Iraq's water and sewer systems and
dams. A war crime as per Geneva conventions and
other conventions the US signed.
The US placed sanctions on Iraq that made it impossible
to keep their water supplies safe resulting in numerous
deaths that eventually would total over 500,000 dead
Iraqi civilians, mostly children.
Our government coldly calculated that these sanctions would
indeed would cause mass epidemics and mass death, and did
it anyway.
Thomas Nagy, a California college professor used the FOIA
statutes to obtain these documents that were published
in September 2001 in the Progressive Magazine.
http://www.progressive.org/0801issue/nagy0901.html
No Christian leaders of either far right or mainstream
denominations cared, nor brought Bush and the GOP leadership
of House and Senate to task for this genocide of innocents.
The voters' guides pushed in many churches still were demanding
parishioners vote GOP despite these horrors and mass murders.
No leaders of large, powerful and influential denominations
ever stood up and denounced these mass murders. Christians
underneath did not push dilatory and unresponsive denominational
leaders to speak out, act and lead against these mass murders
and war crimes. Nor the support early in Bush's career for
Saddam and Pop Pot and other genocidal monsters.
Clinton:
Under Clinton this Iraq policy continued. Again, Christians
did not care. All many Christians cared about was Clinton's
don't-ask-don't-tell gays in military policy and Clinton's
sex life and Whitewater. $47 million spent investigating
Whitewater while the Christian right roared with naked hate.
Money spent investigation mass murder in Iraq caused by
our purposeful by our sanctions? $0.
Roars of disprovable from Christian America over these mass
murders? None.
No large denominations ever made these war crimes and mass murders
an issue nor took the GOP or president to task over these horrors.
What has 30 years of right winged GOP government and right
winger christianity got us? Mass murder, genocide,
Nothing but callousness, disregard for human life,
support for dictators, a near total moral failure of
religion, Christianity, GOP and the American right.
Not once did the large mass of religious christian
Americans, either leadership or rank and file ever
find any of these evils unacceptable or punish any
who supported any of this. Not the christian right
nor leaders of major US religious denominations.
Most GOP House and Senate members were people who
did these things claimed to be christians. Not one
cares, not many christian denominations care that
they did not care or act. Many of those who presided
over these massive moral failures still hold office
in the US Congress and Senate, leaders and ran and file.
Almost all claim to be christians.
They retain full support of far right religious
leaders, pundits and rank and file christian
followers.
30 years of failure. 30 years of support for
far right genocidal bastards, mass murderers,
and evil by the Leaders of Religious right
and large denominations.
Christians posture as moral, American christians have
a very bad track records when it comes to morality, they
will happily support any genocidal monster as long as he's
a right winger, and right winger politicians support
that monster no matter how murderous or genocidal he
and his evil regime is.
The religious right and right winged denominations
spearheaded political support for the GOP, and conservative
politicians who created these evil policies. Main stream
denominations and the thousands of conservative non-denominational
churches representing tens of milliions of Christians made
no effort over 35 years to oppose the GOP or their far right
supporters, these outrageous policies were never made an issue
by any large denomination that could have made a difference.
Christianity thus can only be called a moral failure,
35 years of failure now with no sign that there is any
change on the horizon.
(End)
--
"I used to think the brain was the most fascinating part
of the body. Then I thought, "Look what's telling me
that."
- Emo Phillips
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
12 Jun 2006 05:44:30 AM |
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wbarwell <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in
news:128pl7cet7kim46@corp.supernews.com:
Josef Balluch wrote:
In a message sent 'round the world, Sound of Trumpet poured fuel on
the fire with the following:
[ snip ]
Two words for you, WoT/SoT .................... Spanish Inquisition.
( Please pardon my use of an obscenity )
We don't have to go that far back. The failures of
American Christianity since Nixon to confront
horrors such as GOP support for genocidal dictators
shows us being Christian is not enough.
Braswell complains about GOP support for genocidal dictators, but then
when a GOP President does something about it by removing Saddam Hussein
from power he has total ***** fits.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"There's no reason to take off without one"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
12 Jun 2006 12:32:06 PM |
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Fred Stone wrote:
wbarwell <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in
news:128pl7cet7kim46@corp.supernews.com:
Josef Balluch wrote:
In a message sent 'round the world, Sound of Trumpet poured fuel on
the fire with the following:
[ snip ]
Two words for you, WoT/SoT .................... Spanish Inquisition.
( Please pardon my use of an obscenity )
We don't have to go that far back. The failures of
American Christianity since Nixon to confront
horrors such as GOP support for genocidal dictators
shows us being Christian is not enough.
Braswell complains about GOP support for genocidal dictators, but then
when a GOP President does something about it by removing Saddam Hussein
from power he has total ***** fits.
That is not whay AWOL did, he lied us into a war and then changed excuses.
Had he gone before the American people and said we were going to war to
remove him, that would be another thing totally.
He dod not and he ws both a liar and an incompetent.
It is good Saddam was removed. But that in no way excuses AWOL's lies.
And it still does not excuse 35 years of GOP support for scum including
Saddam Hussein. Nor the sanctions that killed 500,000 Iraqi children, more
than Saddam.
--
"I used to think the brain was the most fascinating part
of the body. Then I thought, "Look what's telling me
that."
- Emo Phillips
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
12 Jun 2006 01:47:21 PM |
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wbarwell <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in
news:128r8qkmmgpj829@corp.supernews.com:
Fred Stone wrote:
wbarwell <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in
news:128pl7cet7kim46@corp.supernews.com:
Josef Balluch wrote:
In a message sent 'round the world, Sound of Trumpet poured fuel on
the fire with the following:
[ snip ]
Two words for you, WoT/SoT .................... Spanish
Inquisition.
( Please pardon my use of an obscenity )
We don't have to go that far back. The failures of
American Christianity since Nixon to confront
horrors such as GOP support for genocidal dictators
shows us being Christian is not enough.
Braswell complains about GOP support for genocidal dictators, but
then when a GOP President does something about it by removing Saddam
Hussein from power he has total ***** fits.
That is not whay AWOL did, he lied us into a war and then changed
excuses.
But he didn't lie, and he didn't change excuses. Those "excuses" are all
on the record from before the invasion. And you're still stuck on stupid
with that AWOL thing too, aren't you ever going to give up on that?
Come on, Braswell grow the ***** up. I know you aren't that stupid.
Had he gone before the American people and said we were going to war
to remove him, that would be another thing totally.
But he did say that, Braswell.
He dod not and he ws both a liar and an incompetent.
That's why he beat the Democrats in two elections.
It is good Saddam was removed. But that in no way excuses AWOL's
lies.
No excuses are needed for winning, Braswell.
And it still does not excuse 35 years of GOP support for scum
including Saddam Hussein. Nor the sanctions that killed 500,000 Iraqi
children, more than Saddam.
Oh, boo hoo. Will we ever live down the hundreds of years of our
history?
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"There's no reason to take off without one"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
12 Jun 2006 10:55:35 PM |
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Fred Stone wrote:
But he didn't lie, and he didn't change excuses. Those "excuses" are all
on the record from before the invasion. And you're still stuck on stupid
with that AWOL thing too, aren't you ever going to give up on that?
Come on, Braswell grow the ***** up. I know you aren't that stupid.
The fucker lied his head off.
Obviously despite al th eproof he did, you aren't going to ever be truthfuul
about it.
You are a moral moron.
--
"I used to think the brain was the most fascinating part
of the body. Then I thought, "Look what's telling me
that."
- Emo Phillips
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
13 Jun 2006 06:35:10 AM |
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wbarwell <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in
news:128sdb6j7gnb6e6@corp.supernews.com:
Fred Stone wrote:
But he didn't lie, and he didn't change excuses. Those "excuses" are
all on the record from before the invasion. And you're still stuck on
stupid with that AWOL thing too, aren't you ever going to give up on
that?
Come on, Braswell grow the ***** up. I know you aren't that stupid.
The fucker lied his head off.
OK, you are that stupid.
Obviously despite al th eproof he did, you aren't going to ever be
truthfuul about it.
You have *NO* proof that he lied. In fact there's all this proof that he
*DIDN'T* lie, and you just ignore that and keep on droning out that same
stupid mantra.
You are a moral moron.
You have no moral standards in the first place, so who are you to call
anybody a moral anything?
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"There's no reason to take off without one"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "*nemo*" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
12 Jun 2006 04:02:01 AM |
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In article <1150038664.699981.19600@m38g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@fastmail.fm> wrote:
Belief in God is Protection against the Gulag
Tell that to the survivors of the Holocaust. Their belief in GAWD did
nothing to protect them from other believers in GAWD!! turning them into
slave labor and grist for the flesh mills.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
12 Jun 2006 12:24:02 AM |
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In article <1150038664.699981.19600@m38g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@fastmail.fm> wrote:
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/10/17/085114.php
Belief in God is Protection against the Gulag
October 17, 2005
Tom Donelson
The author neglects to mention the wars, persecutions, and hateful
bigotry carried out in the name of religion over the centuries.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
11 Jun 2006 10:59:08 PM |
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On 11 Jun 2006 08:11:04 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@fastmail.fm> wrote:
A pundit once observed that those who don't
believe in God find belief in astrology or communicating with the dead.
I'd be willing to wager that the percentage of atheists who believe in
either is close to zero.
Not to be insulting to the developmentally disabled population, but
are you mentally retarded?
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
11 Jun 2006 11:37:15 PM |
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raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:9gpp82tv4vlmu4m28vbbd8fcam5d8lhh5t@4ax.com...
On 11 Jun 2006 08:11:04 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@fastmail.fm> wrote:
A pundit once observed that those who don't
believe in God find belief in astrology or communicating with the dead.
I'd be willing to wager that the percentage of atheists who believe in
either is close to zero.
Not to be insulting to the developmentally disabled population, but
are you mentally retarded?
And it came to pass, remember when a good pal got a new girlfriend? One he
was crazy about? always talking about her, how great she was, how wonderful,
how fantastic, etc.
And you and the gang just looked at each other and said 'What the *****?
She's ugly! She has no dress sense, bad body odour, bad teeth, bad hair and
severe communication disabilities! Crazy *****'. And your pal just
couldn't understand why nobody wanted to listen to him raving about how
great she was, fantastic, wonderful, etc, etc. So, remember what he decided
it meant? Yep, that, secretly, you all wanted his girlfriend for yourselves.
Lo, for he was truly a crazymotherfucker.
Here endeth the lesson.
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
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| User: "The Black Monk" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
12 Jun 2006 11:12:53 AM |
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raven1 wrote:
On 11 Jun 2006 08:11:04 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@fastmail.fm> wrote:
A pundit once observed that those who don't
believe in God find belief in astrology or communicating with the dead.
I'd be willing to wager that the percentage of atheists who believe in
either is close to zero.
You'd lose that wager, as a large number of atheists in places where
most of the world's atheists live (Russia and China) take astrology for
granted.
BM
Not to be insulting to the developmentally disabled population, but
are you mentally retarded?
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
12 Jun 2006 04:07:46 PM |
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On 12 Jun 2006 09:12:53 -0700, "The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com>
wrote:
raven1 wrote:
On 11 Jun 2006 08:11:04 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@fastmail.fm> wrote:
A pundit once observed that those who don't
believe in God find belief in astrology or communicating with the dead.
I'd be willing to wager that the percentage of atheists who believe in
either is close to zero.
You'd lose that wager, as a large number of atheists in places where
most of the world's atheists live (Russia and China) take astrology for
granted.
Many, if not most Russians and Chinese, are not atheists. I rather
doubt that the atheists among them are the ones taking astrology for
granted.
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
.
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| User: "The Black Monk" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
13 Jun 2006 09:11:44 AM |
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raven1 wrote:
On 12 Jun 2006 09:12:53 -0700, "The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com>
wrote:
raven1 wrote:
On 11 Jun 2006 08:11:04 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@fastmail.fm> wrote:
A pundit once observed that those who don't
believe in God find belief in astrology or communicating with the dead.
I'd be willing to wager that the percentage of atheists who believe in
either is close to zero.
You'd lose that wager, as a large number of atheists in places where
most of the world's atheists live (Russia and China) take astrology for
granted.
Many, if not most Russians and Chinese, are not atheists.
In Russia according ot the latest sureveys about 32% of Russians are in
the category of "atheists, agnostic, or nonreligious." As the Orthodox
Church officially condemns astrology as sinful it is most often taken
for granted by those atheists/agnostic/nonreligious people. Astrology
was quite popular among the atheists members of the Communist party,
most of whom had their personal astrologers. Gorby used to plan his
travels in accordance with the stars, the Russian military operates an
Astrology Center, etc:
http://humanism.al.ru/en/articles.phtml?num=000019
That sort of information is widely known in Russia, I don't know why
you doubt it.
I rather doubt that the atheists among them are the ones taking astrology for
granted.
It is exactly mostly them.
BM
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
.
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
13 Jun 2006 01:43:01 PM |
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The Black Monk <ch.mon@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150207904.269854.316420@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
raven1 wrote:
On 12 Jun 2006 09:12:53 -0700, "The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com>
wrote:
raven1 wrote:
On 11 Jun 2006 08:11:04 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@fastmail.fm> wrote:
A pundit once observed that those who don't
believe in God find belief in astrology or communicating with the
dead.
I'd be willing to wager that the percentage of atheists who believe
in
either is close to zero.
You'd lose that wager, as a large number of atheists in places where
most of the world's atheists live (Russia and China) take astrology for
granted.
Many, if not most Russians and Chinese, are not atheists.
In Russia according ot the latest sureveys about 32% of Russians are in
the category of "atheists, agnostic, or nonreligious." As the Orthodox
Church officially condemns astrology as sinful it is most often taken
for granted by those atheists/agnostic/nonreligious people. Astrology
was quite popular among the atheists members of the Communist party,
most of whom had their personal astrologers. Gorby used to plan his
travels in accordance with the stars, the Russian military operates an
Astrology Center, etc:
http://humanism.al.ru/en/articles.phtml?num=000019
That sort of information is widely known in Russia, I don't know why
you doubt it.
I rather doubt that the atheists among them are the ones taking
astrology for
granted.
It is exactly mostly them.
Which somewhat calls into question the description of 'atheist'. Of course,
to a large number of 'christians' anyone not sharing their beleif in a
monotheistic deity as described by their theology is an 'atheist' anyway,
regardless of whatever deity or supra-natural forces they may choose to
beleive in.
BM
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
.
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| User: "The Black Monk" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
13 Jun 2006 03:55:16 PM |
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brique wrote:
It is exactly mostly them.
Which somewhat calls into question the description of 'atheist'. Of course,
to a large number of 'christians' anyone not sharing their beleif in a
monotheistic deity as described by their theology is an 'atheist' anyway,
regardless of whatever deity or supra-natural forces they may choose to
believe in.
Astrology is properly considered a pseudoscience (like alchemy) and not
a religious belief.
BM
BM
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
.
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
14 Jun 2006 08:24:35 AM |
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On 13 Jun 2006 13:55:16 -0700, "The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com>
typed furiously:
brique wrote:
It is exactly mostly them.
Which somewhat calls into question the description of 'atheist'. Of course,
to a large number of 'christians' anyone not sharing their beleif in a
monotheistic deity as described by their theology is an 'atheist' anyway,
regardless of whatever deity or supra-natural forces they may choose to
believe in.
Astrology is properly considered a pseudoscience (like alchemy) and not
a religious belief.
BM
Do you believe that a number of stars, so far away that they cannot
even raise a single ripple on the ocean, can influence how you or I
think? If so I have a number of bridges I can show you .
--
David
At the bottom of the application where it says
"sign here". I put "Sagittarius"
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is Their Gulag |
14 Jun 2006 10:15:03 AM |
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David wrote:
On 13 Jun 2006 13:55:16 -0700, "The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com>
typed furiously:
brique wrote:
It is exactly mostly them.
Which somewhat calls into question the description of 'atheist'. Of course,
to a large number of 'christians' anyone not sharing their beleif in a
monotheistic deity as described by their theology is an 'atheist' anyway,
regardless of whatever deity or supra-natural forces they may choose to
believe in.
Astrology is properly considered a pseudoscience (like alchemy) and not
a religious belief.
Do you believe that a number of stars, so far away that they cannot
even raise a single ripple on the ocean, can influence how you or I
think? If so I have a number of bridges I can show you .
That is not the point. Astrology, at least in its modern form, is a
_materialistic_ explanation of phenomena. It is bad science, but it
is science nevertheless.
You might be amused by Paul Feyerabend's defense of astrology.
Unfortunately I cannot find it online at the moment.
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| User: "The Black Monk" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
14 Jun 2006 09:08:51 AM |
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David wrote:
On 13 Jun 2006 13:55:16 -0700, "The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com>
typed furiously:
brique wrote:
It is exactly mostly them.
Which somewhat calls into question the description of 'atheist'. Of course,
to a large number of 'christians' anyone not sharing their beleif in a
monotheistic deity as described by their theology is an 'atheist' anyway,
regardless of whatever deity or supra-natural forces they may choose to
believe in.
Astrology is properly considered a pseudoscience (like alchemy) and not
a religious belief.
BM
Do you believe that a number of stars, so far away that they cannot
even raise a single ripple on the ocean, can influence how you or I
think? If so I have a number of bridges I can show you .
I also do not believe that I can transform lead into gold; this does
not mean that alchemy is a religion.
BM
--
David
At the bottom of the application where it says
"sign here". I put "Sagittarius"
.
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
15 Jun 2006 04:19:56 AM |
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On 14 Jun 2006 07:08:51 -0700, "The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com>
typed furiously:
David wrote:
On 13 Jun 2006 13:55:16 -0700, "The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com>
typed furiously:
brique wrote:
It is exactly mostly them.
Which somewhat calls into question the description of 'atheist'. Of course,
to a large number of 'christians' anyone not sharing their beleif in a
monotheistic deity as described by their theology is an 'atheist' anyway,
regardless of whatever deity or supra-natural forces they may choose to
believe in.
Astrology is properly considered a pseudoscience (like alchemy) and not
a religious belief.
BM
Do you believe that a number of stars, so far away that they cannot
even raise a single ripple on the ocean, can influence how you or I
think? If so I have a number of bridges I can show you .
I also do not believe that I can transform lead into gold; this does
not mean that alchemy is a religion.
BM
Alchemy is a science. It needs nuclear reactors to occur. I did not
mention alchemy.
I asked whether you believed in astrology. Do you believe that a group
of stars, so far away that they cannot even raise a single ripple on
the ocean, can influence how you or I think? If so I have a number of
bridges I can show you or perhaps you'd be interested in some land
that only gets flooded once per year.
--
David
At the bottom of the application where it says
"sign here". I put "Sagittarius"
.
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| User: "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
15 Jun 2006 12:00:15 PM |
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David wrote:
Alchemy is a science. It needs nuclear reactors to occur.
I did not mention alchemy.
True. Though that is a definition that is somewhat different
from the usual loose multifaceted use of the term. See:
http://www.alchemywebsite.com/faq.html
for a fuller more general discussion.
I asked whether you believed in astrology. Do you believe that a group
of stars, so far away that they cannot even raise a single ripple on
the ocean, can influence how you or I think?
Think about what?
Certainly experimental observation of various heavenly (sky) phenomena
can and do influence how and what serious scientists think about such
matters as cosmology, nuclear reactions e.g. the (Hans Bethe ??) cycle
of fusion reactions, or the physics of black holes etc.
If so I have a number of bridges I can show you
Are these bridges of interest as aesthetic exhibits, or from an
engineering architectural aspect?
or perhaps you'd be interested in some land that only gets flooded
once per year.
Is this some ecological issue that you wish to introduce? Or what?
How do these issues that you raise mesh with the thread Subject
of God, religion, and Russian culture and politics ?
.
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
15 Jun 2006 08:13:47 PM |
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On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 13:00:15 -0400, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj"
<urjlew@bellsouth.net> typed furiously:
David wrote:
Alchemy is a science. It needs nuclear reactors to occur.
I did not mention alchemy.
True. Though that is a definition that is somewhat different
from the usual loose multifaceted use of the term. See:
http://www.alchemywebsite.com/faq.html
for a fuller more general discussion.
I asked whether you believed in astrology. Do you believe that a group
of stars, so far away that they cannot even raise a single ripple on
the ocean, can influence how you or I think?
Think about what?
Certainly experimental observation of various heavenly (sky) phenomena
can and do influence how and what serious scientists think about such
matters as cosmology, nuclear reactions e.g. the (Hans Bethe ??) cycle
of fusion reactions, or the physics of black holes etc.
If so I have a number of bridges I can show you
Are these bridges of interest as aesthetic exhibits, or from an
engineering architectural aspect?
or perhaps you'd be interested in some land that only gets flooded
once per year.
Is this some ecological issue that you wish to introduce? Or what?
How do these issues that you raise mesh with the thread Subject
of God, religion, and Russian culture and politics ?
They are all fairy stories.
--
David
At the bottom of the application where it says
"sign here". I put "Sagittarius"
.
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| User: "The Black Monk" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
15 Jun 2006 09:22:00 AM |
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David wrote:
On 14 Jun 2006 07:08:51 -0700, "The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com>
typed furiously:
David wrote:
On 13 Jun 2006 13:55:16 -0700, "The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com>
typed furiously:
brique wrote:
It is exactly mostly them.
Which somewhat calls into question the description of 'atheist'. Of course,
to a large number of 'christians' anyone not sharing their beleif in a
monotheistic deity as described by their theology is an 'atheist' anyway,
regardless of whatever deity or supra-natural forces they may choose to
believe in.
Astrology is properly considered a pseudoscience (like alchemy) and not
a religious belief.
BM
Do you believe that a number of stars, so far away that they cannot
even raise a single ripple on the ocean, can influence how you or I
think? If so I have a number of bridges I can show you .
I also do not believe that I can transform lead into gold; this does
not mean that alchemy is a religion.
BM
Alchemy is a science.
A pseudoscuience that helped give rise to chemsistry, as astrology did
for astronomy.
It needs nuclear reactors to occur. I did not
mention alchemy.
I asked whether you believed in astrology. Do you believe that a group
of stars, so far away that they cannot even raise a single ripple on
the ocean, can influence how you or I think?
You completely misunderstand astrology. As I posted earlier, astrology
is a platonic (or perhaps neoplatonic) system that predates the Western
emphaisis on causality which naturally permaeates the language we use
when discussing the alleged relationship between the stars and
character. Accordingly, astrology does not mean that stars "control"
one's destiny or personality, rather that for whatever reason their
configuration at the time of birth is linked to it, and therefore that
properly understanding that configuration gives one predictive power.
It probably better matches the newer quantum approach to physics versus
the cause-and-effect, mechanistic Newtonian one. Alchemy btw is based
on a similar understanding of the world as is astrology.
Astrology is based on an ancient way of seeing the world but there is
nothing inherently religious about it, just as there is nothing
inherently religious about a ptolomaic approach to astronomy.
As for my beliefs about astrology - I haven't seen any adequate
debunking of that field (it may be impossible because it may not be
falsifiable) so I remain a sceptical "agnostic."
Here is an interesting article I just found, written by a University of
Michigan professor, on astrology and science:
http://www.cavehill.uwi.edu/bnccde/PH29A/thagard.html
regards,
BM
If so I have a number of
bridges I can show you or perhaps you'd be interested in some land
that only gets flooded once per year.
--
David
At the bottom of the application where it says
"sign here". I put "Sagittarius"
.
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
15 Jun 2006 08:12:22 PM |
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On 15 Jun 2006 07:22:00 -0700, "The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com>
typed furiously:
David wrote:
On 14 Jun 2006 07:08:51 -0700, "The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com>
typed furiously:
David wrote:
On 13 Jun 2006 13:55:16 -0700, "The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com>
typed furiously:
brique wrote:
It is exactly mostly them.
Which somewhat calls into question the description of 'atheist'. Of course,
to a large number of 'christians' anyone not sharing their beleif in a
monotheistic deity as described by their theology is an 'atheist' anyway,
regardless of whatever deity or supra-natural forces they may choose to
believe in.
Astrology is properly considered a pseudoscience (like alchemy) and not
a religious belief.
BM
Do you believe that a number of stars, so far away that they cannot
even raise a single ripple on the ocean, can influence how you or I
think? If so I have a number of bridges I can show you .
I also do not believe that I can transform lead into gold; this does
not mean that alchemy is a religion.
BM
Alchemy is a science.
It needs nuclear reactors to occur. I did not
mention alchemy.
A pseudoscience that helped give rise to chemistry, as astrology did
for astronomy.
Alchemy is no longer a pseudo-science. Yes, chemistry did arise from
alchemy but, with the aid of nuclear reactors, transmutation can
actually occur. It's not lead into gold but uranium into lead.
I asked whether you believed in astrology. Do you believe that a group
of stars, so far away that they cannot even raise a single ripple on
the ocean, can influence how you or I think?
You completely misunderstand astrology.
Do I.
As I posted earlier, astrology
is a platonic (or perhaps neoplatonic) system that predates the Western
emphaisis on causality which naturally permaeates the language we use
when discussing the alleged relationship between the stars and
character. Accordingly, astrology does not mean that stars "control"
one's destiny or personality, rather that for whatever reason their
configuration at the time of birth is linked to it, and therefore that
properly understanding that configuration gives one predictive power.
That's the problem right there. "predictive power" means what
precisely?
It probably better matches the newer quantum approach to physics versus
the cause-and-effect, mechanistic Newtonian one. Alchemy btw is based
on a similar understanding of the world as is astrology.
Exactly, a limited understanding.
Astrology is based on an ancient way of seeing the world but there is
nothing inherently religious about it, just as there is nothing
inherently religious about a ptolomaic approach to astronomy.
I never mentioned religion.
As for my beliefs about astrology - I haven't seen any adequate
debunking of that field (it may be impossible because it may not be
falsifiable) so I remain a sceptical "agnostic."
OK.
Here is an interesting article I just found, written by a University of
Michigan professor, on astrology and science:
http://www.cavehill.uwi.edu/bnccde/PH29A/thagard.html
URL not found.
--
David
At the bottom of the application where it says
"sign here". I put "Sagittarius"
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Belief In God Is The Only Protection Against The Gulag |
16 Jun 2006 09:37:15 AM |
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David wrote:
On 15 Jun 2006 07:22:00 -0700, "The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com>
Here is an interesting article I just found, written by a University of
Michigan professor, on astrology and science:
http://www.cavehill.uwi.edu/bnccde/PH29A/thagard.html
URL not found.
I got it. It is a good article. Not as funny as Feyerabend, though.
.
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