Religions > Atheism > Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit)
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"homer" |
| Date: |
30 May 2004 01:18:27 PM |
| Object: |
Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
Scripture: John 20:19-23
19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors
being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came
and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 When he
had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the
disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them
again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send
you." 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to
them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any,
they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
-------------------------------------
It is interesting that in every appearance after he was raised from
the dead, his disciples had a hard time recognizing Jesus. On the road
to Emmaus he had a lengthy conversation with two disciples and they
did not know it was him. Here he has to show them his wounds, before
they were glad and knew it was him.
But here he gives us the holy spirit. Notice how he immediately says
they now have the power to forgive sins. Remember when he was working
the miracles, how he would always say first--your sins are forgiven.
He was clearly stating that this is by far a greater power than the
power of curing them of their blindness or whatever ailment they had.
Remember how he said to one man-- sin no more that nothing worse
befall you. So the power to forgive sins is the greatest power.
He is telling us that with the holy spirit comes the greatest powers
there are. It is all encompassing. He is not holding back on us. Do
not underestimate the holy spirit. Remember it is spiritual in nature.
But if we are able to accept it we have the greatest power there is
with us.
And remember the power of forgiveness that you now have by way of the
holy spirit. It is the power to forgive all those who trespass against
you. And remember that if you forgive others their sins against you,
then your sins will be forgiven, but if you do not forgive others
their sins against you, then neither will your sins be forgiven.
.
|
|
| User: "John Baker" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
30 May 2004 10:58:56 PM |
|
|
"homer" <xxx@xxx.com> wrote in message
news:hn7kb0td5d7tkh56sgk7thc8u0i74gk0gv@4ax.com...
Scripture: John 20:19-23
19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors
being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came
and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 When he
had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the
disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them
again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send
you." 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to
them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any,
they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
-------------------------------------
It is interesting that in every appearance after he was raised from
the dead, his disciples had a hard time recognizing Jesus.
Gee, ya don't suppose that might be because Jesus was freaking DEAD and this
guy was someone else claiming to be Jesus for some less than honorable
reason do ya? <G>
<remainder of religious drivel snipped>
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
31 May 2004 08:28:55 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 30 May 2004 18:18:27 +0000 in episode
<hn7kb0td5d7tkh56sgk7thc8u0i74gk0gv@4ax.com> we saw our hero homer
<xxx@xxx.com>:
It is interesting that...
....anybody believes this mystical drivel anymore...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"I think it's the worst kept secret in Washington.
That everybody - everybody I talk to in Washington
has known and fully knows what [the neo-conservative]
agenda was and what they were trying to do."
[Retired General Anthony Zinni]
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "raven1" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
30 May 2004 02:06:41 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 30 May 2004 18:18:27 GMT, homer <xxx@xxx.com> wrote:
It is interesting that in every appearance after he was raised from
the dead, his disciples had a hard time recognizing Jesus.
Yes, it is. Why do you suppose that might be? I wouldn't have a
difficult time recognizing my grandmother if she came back to life,
and I haven't seen her in 19 years. How do eleven disciples fail to
recognize someone who they've just spent the last three years
traveling with 24/7?
.
|
|
|
| User: "homer" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
31 May 2004 12:12:51 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 30 May 2004 19:06:41 GMT, raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 30 May 2004 18:18:27 GMT, homer <xxx@xxx.com> wrote:
It is interesting that in every appearance after he was raised from
the dead, his disciples had a hard time recognizing Jesus.
Yes, it is. Why do you suppose that might be? I wouldn't have a
difficult time recognizing my grandmother if she came back to life,
and I haven't seen her in 19 years. How do eleven disciples fail to
recognize someone who they've just spent the last three years
traveling with 24/7?
People who have had a near death experience also talk about this sort
of thing. Apparently in the next life we will still have a body but it
will look different from the one we have here.
.
|
|
|
| User: "raven1" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
31 May 2004 01:09:08 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 31 May 2004 05:12:51 GMT, homer <xxx@xxx.com> wrote:
On Sun, 30 May 2004 19:06:41 GMT, raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 30 May 2004 18:18:27 GMT, homer <xxx@xxx.com> wrote:
It is interesting that in every appearance after he was raised from
the dead, his disciples had a hard time recognizing Jesus.
Yes, it is. Why do you suppose that might be? I wouldn't have a
difficult time recognizing my grandmother if she came back to life,
and I haven't seen her in 19 years. How do eleven disciples fail to
recognize someone who they've just spent the last three years
traveling with 24/7?
People who have had a near death experience also talk about this sort
of thing. Apparently in the next life we will still have a body but it
will look different from the one we have here.
Which is irrelevant to the Resurrection, in which Jesus's supposedly
dead body was reanimated.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
31 May 2004 05:30:07 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 30 May 2004 19:06:41 GMT, raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote:
It is interesting that in every appearance after he was raised from
the dead, his disciples had a hard time recognizing Jesus.
Yes, it is. Why do you suppose that might be?
What do you suppose "recognize" means? Or can mean. Three days earlier a man that looked
like this was dead on the cross.
I wouldn't have a
difficult time recognizing my grandmother if she came back to life,
and I haven't seen her in 19 years. How do eleven disciples fail to
recognize someone who they've just spent the last three years
traveling with 24/7?
And now you know the rest of the answer.
duke
*****
John 6
53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless
you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his
blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my
flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I
will raise him up at the last day.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "raven1" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
31 May 2004 10:08:55 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 31 May 2004 05:30:07 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Sun, 30 May 2004 19:06:41 GMT, raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote:
It is interesting that in every appearance after he was raised from
the dead, his disciples had a hard time recognizing Jesus.
Yes, it is. Why do you suppose that might be?
What do you suppose "recognize" means? Or can mean. Three days earlier a man that looked
like this was dead on the cross.
I wouldn't have a
difficult time recognizing my grandmother if she came back to life,
and I haven't seen her in 19 years. How do eleven disciples fail to
recognize someone who they've just spent the last three years
traveling with 24/7?
And now you know the rest of the answer.
Ah, yes, I can always count on you for a bizarre non sequitur.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Steve Knight" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
30 May 2004 09:57:43 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 30 May 2004 18:18:27 GMT, homer <xxx@xxx.com> wrote:
snip
And remember the power of forgiveness that you now have by way of the
holy spirit. It is the power to forgive all those who trespass against
you. And remember that if you forgive others their sins against you,
then your sins will be forgiven, but if you do not forgive others
their sins against you, then neither will your sins be forgiven.
Homer, nobody gives a ***** in alt.atheism. All the stuff you're
bleating is dogmatic crap. Your bible is utterly useless. It has no
more validity to atheists than the Koran or a Superman comic book.
You believers in fantasy are so locked into a 'holy' book that you
can't fathom, or even relate to atheist witnessing. It's pretty
incredible when you think about. You think you have 'such' an
important thing to say, that when you say it, to us, you're pissing
on your shoe.
Here's the problem. You have to prove a god exists. Then prove it's
the christian god. All without using your bible. Plus, you might try
and bone up on logical fallacies, critical thinking and the burden of
proof.
Homer, are you one of those post it and believe assholes or do you
engage in debate?
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
.
|
|
|
| User: "homer" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
31 May 2004 09:08:52 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 31 May 2004 02:57:43 GMT, Steve Knight <whooly@sonic.net>
wrote:
On Sun, 30 May 2004 18:18:27 GMT, homer <xxx@xxx.com> wrote:
snip
And remember the power of forgiveness that you now have by way of the
holy spirit. It is the power to forgive all those who trespass against
you. And remember that if you forgive others their sins against you,
then your sins will be forgiven, but if you do not forgive others
their sins against you, then neither will your sins be forgiven.
Homer, nobody gives a ***** in alt.atheism. All the stuff you're
bleating is dogmatic crap. Your bible is utterly useless. It has no
more validity to atheists than the Koran or a Superman comic book.
You believers in fantasy are so locked into a 'holy' book that you
can't fathom, or even relate to atheist witnessing. It's pretty
incredible when you think about. You think you have 'such' an
important thing to say, that when you say it, to us, you're pissing
on your shoe.
Here's the problem. You have to prove a god exists. Then prove it's
the christian god. All without using your bible. Plus, you might try
and bone up on logical fallacies, critical thinking and the burden of
proof.
Homer, are you one of those post it and believe assholes or do you
engage in debate?
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
As I've said before, I'm posting these quotes to the same groups the
EvilBible posts to, and will continue to do so.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "David V." |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
30 May 2004 02:19:01 PM |
|
|
homer wrote:
Scripture: John 20:19-23
19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week,
the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear
of the Jews....
Yet they themselves were Jews. This sounds like something
added later to make people think the Jews are a bad people.
Oh, don't forget that not one of the people writing this
part was a witness to the event.
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
30 May 2004 05:45:57 PM |
|
|
On 30-May-2004, "David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yet they themselves were Jews. This sounds like something
added later to make people think the Jews are a bad people.
Oh, don't forget that not one of the people writing this
part was a witness to the event.
The Jews *were* actively persecuting the new faith. The Acts was written by
St. Luke, who was around at the time, and had as his main source of
information Mary, the mother of Jesus, (who was in that room on that fateful
day.)
H.
.
|
|
|
| User: "David V." |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
30 May 2004 06:47:05 PM |
|
|
wrote:
On 30-May-2004, "David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yet they themselves were Jews. This sounds like
something added later to make people think the Jews are
a bad people. Oh, don't forget that not one of the
people writing this part was a witness to the event.
The Jews *were* actively persecuting the new faith....
There was no "new faith."
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "homer" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
31 May 2004 12:22:16 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 30 May 2004 12:19:01 -0700, "David V." <spam@hotmail.com>
wrote:
homer wrote:
Scripture: John 20:19-23
19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week,
the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear
of the Jews....
Yet they themselves were Jews. This sounds like something
added later to make people think the Jews are a bad people.
Oh, don't forget that not one of the people writing this
part was a witness to the event.
John, writer of the fourth gospel, was the disciple John. He was an
eyewitness to it all. He says it at the very end:
When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, "Lord, what about this man?"
22: Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come,
what is that to you? Follow me!"
23: The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was
not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but,
"If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?"
24: This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and
who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true.
25: But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every
one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not
contain the books that would be written.
Mathew, mark and Luke of the first three gospels were not
eyewitnesses, but wrote their accounts just after it happened, and so
their accounts are based on eyewitness testimony.
.
|
|
|
| User: "raven1" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
31 May 2004 01:10:29 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 31 May 2004 05:22:16 GMT, homer <xxx@xxx.com> wrote:
On Sun, 30 May 2004 12:19:01 -0700, "David V." <spam@hotmail.com>
wrote:
homer wrote:
Scripture: John 20:19-23
19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week,
the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear
of the Jews....
Yet they themselves were Jews. This sounds like something
added later to make people think the Jews are a bad people.
Oh, don't forget that not one of the people writing this
part was a witness to the event.
John, writer of the fourth gospel, was the disciple John. He was an
eyewitness to it all.
No, he wasn't, and no serious scholar makes such a claim.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "David V." |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
31 May 2004 01:14:57 AM |
|
|
homer wrote:
"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote:
homer wrote:
Scripture: John 20:19-23
19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the
week, the doors being shut where the disciples were,
for fear of the Jews....
Yet they themselves were Jews. This sounds like
something added later to make people think the Jews are
a bad people. Oh, don't forget that not one of the
people writing this part was a witness to the event.
John, writer of the fourth gospel, was the disciple John.
Wrong John.
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
.
|
|
|
| User: "homer" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
31 May 2004 01:39:41 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 30 May 2004 23:14:57 -0700, "David V." <spam@hotmail.com>
wrote:
homer wrote:
"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote:
homer wrote:
Scripture: John 20:19-23
19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the
week, the doors being shut where the disciples were,
for fear of the Jews....
Yet they themselves were Jews. This sounds like
something added later to make people think the Jews are
a bad people. Oh, don't forget that not one of the
people writing this part was a witness to the event.
John, writer of the fourth gospel, was the disciple John.
Wrong John.
20: Peter turned and saw following them the disciple whom Jesus loved,
who had lain close to his breast at the supper and had said, "Lord,
who is it that is going to betray you?"
21: When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, "Lord, what about this man?"
22: Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come,
what is that to you? Follow me!"
23: The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was
not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but,
"If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?"
24: This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and
who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true.
25: But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every
one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not
contain the books that would be written.
John, writer of the fourth gospel, was the disciple John.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jez" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
31 May 2004 09:36:33 AM |
|
|
"homer" <xxx@xxx.com> wrote in message
news:fiklb098d56dvq2sts5v2o8tb1bfigri0c@4ax.com...
John, writer of the fourth gospel, was the disciple John.
Afraid not.
None of the gospels were written by the disciples.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.
|
|
|
| User: "David V." |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
31 May 2004 10:59:00 AM |
|
|
Jez wrote:
"homer" <xxx@xxx.com> wrote
John, writer of the fourth gospel, was the disciple
John.
Afraid not.
None of the gospels were written by the disciples.
Isn't it fascinating that a bunch of Atheists know more
about the bible than many christians?
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jez" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
31 May 2004 11:16:30 AM |
|
|
"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:frWdnefoHp7ZyybdRVn-hw@sti.net...
Jez wrote:
"homer" <xxx@xxx.com> wrote
John, writer of the fourth gospel, was the disciple
John.
Afraid not.
None of the gospels were written by the disciples.
Isn't it fascinating that a bunch of Atheists know more
about the bible than many christians?
Yes, it is a bit amazing isn't it !
I wonder why ?
Perhaps an education just never occurred to them !
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.
|
|
|
| User: "David V." |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
31 May 2004 01:44:54 PM |
|
|
Jez wrote:
"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote
Jez wrote:
"homer" <xxx@xxx.com> wrote
John, writer of the fourth gospel, was the disciple
John.
Afraid not.
None of the gospels were written by the disciples.
Isn't it fascinating that a bunch of Atheists know more
about the bible than many christians?
Yes, it is a bit amazing isn't it ! I wonder why ?
Perhaps an education just never occurred to them !
They're not allowed to get that educated. Once they do they
stop believing and then the preachers would loose money.
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon The 15th" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
01 Jun 2004 08:50:58 PM |
|
|
"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote in news:frWdnefoHp7ZyybdRVn-
hw@sti.net:
Jez wrote:
"homer" <xxx@xxx.com> wrote
John, writer of the fourth gospel, was the disciple
John.
Afraid not.
None of the gospels were written by the disciples.
Isn't it fascinating that a bunch of Atheists know more
about the bible than many christians?
One thing that is kind of fascinating are the passages in the NT where
events are being described from an eyewitness point of view but where
there is obviously no eye witness. An example came up in a thread
recently where one of the bleaters quoted the bit where the devil tempts
Jesus. You can tell the whole thing is made up just from the way it is
written. It doesn't even say that Jesus returned and told us such and
such happenned. Instead the story is recounted in the manner a story is
told in any work of fiction.
Klazmon
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
31 May 2004 08:30:05 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 31 May 2004 06:39:41 +0000 in episode
<fiklb098d56dvq2sts5v2o8tb1bfigri0c@4ax.com> we saw our hero homer
<xxx@xxx.com>:
On Sun, 30 May 2004 23:14:57 -0700, "David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote:
homer wrote:
"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote:
homer wrote:
Scripture: John 20:19-23
19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors
being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews....
Yet they themselves were Jews. This sounds like something added later
to make people think the Jews are
a bad people. Oh, don't forget that not one of the
people writing this part was a witness to the event.
John, writer of the fourth gospel, was the disciple John.
Wrong John.
20: Peter turned and saw following them the disciple whom Jesus loved, who
had lain close to his breast at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is it
that is going to betray you?" 21: When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus,
"Lord, what about this man?" 22: Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that
he remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!"
23: The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was not
to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, "If it
is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?" 24: This is
the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written
these things; and we know that his testimony is true. 25: But there are
also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be
written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that
would be written.
John, writer of the fourth gospel, was the disciple John.
None of what you quoted establishes that the books attributed to "John"
were written by that John.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"I think it's the worst kept secret in Washington.
That everybody - everybody I talk to in Washington
has known and fully knows what [the neo-conservative]
agenda was and what they were trying to do."
[Retired General Anthony Zinni]
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "David V." |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
31 May 2004 10:57:24 AM |
|
|
homer wrote:
"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote:
homer wrote:
"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote:
homer wrote:
Scripture: John 20:19-23
19 On the evening of that day, the first day of
the week, the doors being shut where the
disciples were, for fear of the Jews....
Yet they themselves were Jews. This sounds like
something added later to make people think the Jews
are a bad people. Oh, don't forget that not one of
the people writing this part was a witness to the
event.
John, writer of the fourth gospel, was the disciple
John.
Wrong John.
20: Peter....
Bible quotes prove nothing. You got the wrong guy. Any
biblical scholar will tell you.
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
.
|
|
|
| User: "homer" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
31 May 2004 07:59:49 PM |
|
|
John, writer of the fourth gospel, was the disciple
John.
Wrong John.
20: Peter....
Bible quotes prove nothing. You got the wrong guy. Any
biblical scholar will tell you.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia, The Gospel of St. John,
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08438a.htm
III. AUTHORSHIP
If we except the heretics mentioned by Irenaeus (Adv. haer., III, xi,
9) and Epiphanius (Haer., li, 3), the authenticity of the Fourth
Gospel was scarcely ever seriously questioned until the end of the
eighteenth century. Evanson (1792) and Bretschneider (1820) were the
first to run counter to tradition in the question of the authorship,
and, since David Friedrich Strauss (1834-40) adopted Bretschneider's
views and the members of the Tübingen School, in the wake of Ferdinand
Christian Baur, denied the authenticity of this Gospel, the majority
of the critics outside the Catholic Church have denied that the Fourth
Gospel was authentic. On the admission of many critics, their chief
reason lies in the fact that John has too clearly and emphatically
made the true Divinity of the Redeemer, in the strict metaphysical
sense, the centre of his narrative. However, even Harnack has had to
admit that, though denying the authenticity of the Fourth Gospel, he
has sought in vain for any satisfactory solution of the Johannine
problem: "Again and again have I attempted to solve the problem with
various possible theories, but they led me into still greater
difficulties, and even developed into contradictions." ("Gesch. der
altchristl. Lit.", I, pt. ii, Leipzig, 1897, p. 678.)
A short examination of the arguments bearing on the solution of the
problem of the authorship of the Fourth Gospel will enable the reader
to form an independent judgment.
Direct Historical Proof
If, as is demanded by the character of the historical question, we
first consult the historical testimony of the past, we discover the
universally admitted fact that, from the eighteenth century back to at
least the third, the Apostle John was accepted without question as the
author of the Fourth Gospel. In the examination of evidence therefore,
we may begin with the third century, and thence proceed back to the
time of the Apostles.
The ancient manuscripts and translations of the Gospel constitute the
first group of evidence. In the titles, tables of contents,
signatures, which are usually added to the text of the separate
Gospels, John is in every case and without the faintest indication of
doubt named as the author of this Gospel. The earliest of the extant
manuscripts, it is true, do not date back beyond the middle of the
fourth century, but the perfect unanimity of all the codices proves to
every critic that the prototypes of these manuscripts, at a much
earlier date, must have contained the same indications of authorship.
Similar is the testimony of the Gospel translations, of which the
Syrian, Coptic, and Old Latin extend back in their earliest forms to
the second century.
The evidence given by the early ecclesiastical authors, whose
reference to questions of authorship is but incidental, agrees with
that of the above mentioned sources. St. Dionysius of Alexandria
(264-5), it is true, sought for a different author for the Apocalypse,
owing to the special difficulties which were being then urged by the
Millennarianists in Egypt; but he always took for granted as an
undoubted fact that the Apostle John was the author of the Fourth
Gospel. Equally clear is the testimony of Origen (d. 254). He knew
from the tradition of the Church that John was the last of the
Evangelists to compose his Gospel (Eusebius, "Hist. eccl.", VI, xxv,
6), and at least a great portion of his commentary on the Gospel of
St. John, in which he everywhere makes clear his conviction of the
Apostolic origin of the work has come down to us. Origen's teacher,
Clement of Alexandria (d. before 215-6), relates as " the tradition of
the old presbyters", that the Apostle John, the last of the
Evangelists, "filled with the Holy Ghost, had written a spiritual
Gospel" (Eusebius, op. cit., VI, xiv, 7).
Of still greater importance is the testimony of St. Irenaeus, Bishop
of Lyons (d. about 202), linked immediately with the Apostolic Age as
he is, through his teacher Polycarp, the disciple of the Apostle John.
The native country of Irenaeus (Asia Minor) and the scene of his
subsequent ministry (Gaul) render him a witness of the Faith in both
the Eastern and the Western Church. He cites in his writings at least
one hundred verses from the Fourth Gospel, often with the remark, "as
John, the disciple of the Lord, says". In speaking of the composition
of the Four Gospels, he says of the last: " Later John, the disciple
of the Lord who rested on His breast, also wrote a Gospel, while he
was residing at Ephesus in Asia" (Adv. Haer., III, i, n. 2). As here,
so also in the other texts it is clear that by "John, the disciple of
the Lord," he means none other than the Apostle John.
We find that the same conviction concerning the authorship of the
Fourth Gospel is expressed at greater length in the Roman Church,
about 170, by the writer of the Muratorian Fragment (lines 9-34).
Bishop Theophilus of Antioch in Syria (before 181) also cites the
beginning of the Fourth Gospel as the words of John (Ad Autolycum, II,
xxii). Finally, according to the testimony of a Vatican manuscript
(Codex Regin Sueci seu Alexandrinus, 14), Bishop Papias of Hierapolis
in Phrygia, an immediate disciple of the Apostle John, included in his
great exegetical work an account of the composition of the Gospel by
St. John during which he had been employed as scribe by the Apostle.
It is scarcely necessary to repeat that, in the passages referred to,
Papias and the other ancient writers have in mind but one John, namely
the Apostle and Evangelist, and not some other Presbyter John, to be
distinguished from the Apostle. (See JOHN THE EVANGELIST, SAINT.)
Indirect External Evidence
In addition to the direct and express testimony, the first Christian
centuries testify indirectly in various ways to the Johannine origin
of the Fourth Gospel. Among this indirect evidence the most prominent
place must be assigned to the numerous citations of texts from the
Gospel which demonstrate its existence and the recognition of its
claim to form a portion of the canonical writings of the New
Testament, as early as the beginning of the second century. St.
Ignatius of Antioch, who died under Trajan (98-117), reveals in the
quotations, allusions, and theological views found in his Epistles, an
intimate acquaintance with the Fourth Gospel. In the writings of the
majority of the other Apostolic Fathers, also, a like acquaintance
with this Gospel can scarcely be disputed, especially in the case of
Polycarp, the "Martyrium of Polycarp", the "Epistle to Diognetus", and
the "Pastor" of Hermas (cf. the list of quotations and allusions in F.
X. Funk's edition of the Apostolic Fathers).
In speaking of St. Papias, Eusebius says (Hist. eccl., III, xxxix, 17)
that he used in his work passages from the First Epistle of St. John.
But this Epistle necessarily presupposes the existence of the Gospel,
of which it is in a way the introduction or companion work.
Furthermore, St. Irenaeus (Adv. Haer., V, xxxii, 2) cites a sentence
of the "presbyters" which contains a quotation from John, xiv, 2, and,
according to the opinion of those entitled to speak as critics, St.
Papias must be placed in the front rank of the presbyters.
Of the second-century apologists, St. Justin (d. about 166), in an
especial manner, indicates by his doctrine of the Logos, and in many
passages of his apologies the existence of the Fourth Gospel. His
disciple Tatian, in the chronological scheme of his " Diatessaron",
follows the order of the Fourth Gospel, the prologue of which he
employs as the introduction to his work. In his "Apology" also he
cites a text from the Gospel.
Like Tatian, who apostatized about 172 and joined the Gnostic sect of
the Encratites, several other heretics of the second century also
supply indirect testimony concerning the Fourth Gospel. Basilides
appeals to John, i, 8, and ii, 4. Valentine seeks support for his
theories of the ons in expressions taken from John; his pupil
Heracleon composed, about 160, a commentary on the Fourth Gospel,
while Ptolemy, another of his followers, gives an explanation of the
prologue of the Evangelist. Marcion preserves a portion of the
canonical text of the Gospel of St. John (xiii, 4-15; xxxiv, 15, 19)
in his own apocryphal gospel. The Montanists deduce their doctrine of
the Paraclete mainly from John, xv and xvi. Similarly in his "True
Discourse" (about 178) the pagan philosopher Celsus bases some of his
statements on passages of the Fourth Gospel.
On the other hand, indirect testimony concerning this Gospel is also
supplied by the oldest ecclesiastical liturgies and the monuments of
early Christian art. As to the former, we find from the very beginning
texts from the Fourth Gospel used in all parts of the Church, and not
infrequently with special predilection. Again, to take one example,
the raising of Lazarus depicted in the Catacombs forms, as it were, a
monumental commentary on the eleventh chapter of the Gospel of St.
John.
The Testimony of the Gospel Itself
The Gospel itself also furnishes an entirely intelligible solution of
the question of authorship.
(1) The general character of the work
In the first place from the general character of the work we are
enabled to draw some inferences regarding its author. To judge from
the language, the author was a Palestinian Jew, who was well
acquainted with the Hellenic Greek of the upper classes. He also
displays an accurate knowledge of the geographical and social
conditions of Palestine even in his slightest incidental references.
He must have enjoyed personal intercourse with the Saviour and must
even have belonged to the circle of his intimate friends. The very
style of his chronicle shows the writer to have been an eyewitness of
most of the events. Concerning the Apostles John and James the author
shows a thoroughly characteristic reserve. He never mentions their
names, although he gives those of most of the Apostles, and once only,
and then quite incidentally, speaks of "the sons of Zebedee" (xxi, 2).
On several occasions, when treating of incidents in which the Apostle
John was concerned, he seems intentionally to avoid mentioning his
name (John, i, 37-40; xviii, 15, 16; cf. xx, 3-10). He speaks of John
the precursor nine times without giving him the title of "the
Baptist", as the other Evangelists invariably do to distinguish him
from the Apostle. All these indications point clearly to the
conclusion that the Apostle John must have been the author of the
Fourth Gospel.
(2) The express testimony of the author
Still clearer grounds for this view are to be found in the express
testimony of the author. Having mentioned in his account of the
Crucifixion that the disciple whom Jesus loved stood beneath the Cross
beside the mother of Jesus (John, xix, 26 sqq.), he adds, after
telling of the Death of Christ and the opening of His side, the solemn
assurance: "And he that saw it hath given testimony; and his testimony
is true. And he knoweth that he saith true: that you also may believe"
(xix, 35). According to the admission of all John himself is the
"disciple whom the Lord loved". His testimony is contained in the
Gospel which for many consecutive years he has announced by word of
mouth and which he now sets down in writing for the instruction of the
faithful. He assures us, not merely that this testimony is true, but
that he was a personal witness of its truth. In this manner he
identifies himself with the disciple beloved of the Lord who alone
could give such testimony from intimate knowledge. Similarly the
author repeats this testimony at the end of his Gospel. After again
referring to the disciple whom Jesus loved, he immediately adds the
words: "This is that disciple who giveth testimony of these things,
and hath written these things; and we know that his testimony is true"
(John, xxi, 24). As the next verse shows, his testimony refers not
merely to the events just recorded but to the whole Gospel. It is more
in accordance with the text and the general style of the Evangelist to
regard these final words as the author's own composition, should we
prefer, however, to regard this verse as the addition of the first
reader and disciple of the Apostle, the text constitutes the earliest
and most venerable evidence of the Johannine origin of the Fourth
Gospel.
(3) Comparison of the Gospel to the Johannine epistles
Finally we can obtain evidence Concerning the author from the Gospel
itself, by comparing his work with the three Epistles, which have
retained their place among the Catholic Epistles as the writings of
the Apostle John. We may here take for granted as a fact admitted by
the majority of the critics, that these Epistles are the work of the
same writer, and that the author was identical with the author of the
Gospel. In fact the arguments based on the unity of style and
language, on the uniform Johannine teaching, on the testimony of
Christian antiquity, render any reasonable doubt of the common
authorship impossible. At the beginning of the Second and Third
Epistles the author styles himself simply "the presbyter" -- evidently
the title of honour by which he was commonly known among the Christian
community. On the other hand, in his First Epistle, he emphasizes
repeatedly and with great earnestness the feet that he was an
eyewitness of the facts concerning the life of Christ to which he (in
his Gospel) had borne testimony among the Christians: "That which was
from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our
eyes, which we have looked upon and our hands have handled, of the
word of life: for the life was manifested; and we have seen and do
bear witness, and declare unto you the life eternal, which was with
the Father, and hath appeared to us: that which we have seen and have
heard, we declare unto you" (I John, i, 1-3; cf. iv, 14). This
"presbyter" who finds it sufficient to use such an honorary title
without qualification as his proper name, and was likewise an eye- and
earwitness of the incidents of the Saviour's life, can be none other
than the Presbyter John mentioned by Papias, who can in turn be none
other than John the Apostle (cf. JOHN THE EVANGELIST, SAINT).
We can therefore, maintain with the utmost certainty that John the
Apostle, the favourite disciple of Jesus, was really the author of the
Fourth Gospel.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon The 15th" |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
01 Jun 2004 09:03:49 PM |
|
|
homer <xxx@xxx.com> wrote in news:55lnb0trsrntq8b7kjo5vb67l88alrjbbg@
4ax.com:
John, writer of the fourth gospel, was the disciple
John.
Wrong John.
20: Peter....
Bible quotes prove nothing. You got the wrong guy. Any
biblical scholar will tell you.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia, The Gospel of St. John,
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08438a.htm
In this article they are just quoting the views of those that gave that
particular gospel the title 'according to John". For more scholarly
considerations read this:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/john.html
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "David V." |
|
| Title: Re: Bible Quote of the Day for May 30 (receive the holy spirit) |
31 May 2004 09:07:31 PM |
|
|
homer wrote:
John, writer of the fourth gospel, was the disciple
John.
Wrong John.
20: Peter....
Bible quotes prove nothing. You got the wrong guy. Any
biblical scholar will tell you.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia, The Gospel of St. John,
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08438a.htm
So, you can't admit you were wrong?
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
