| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"ta" |
| Date: |
23 Jul 2004 03:11:31 PM |
| Object: |
Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
CALLER: Yes, do you think President Bush is sincere in supporting
Ariel Sharon's position, the government with denying the Palestinians
right of return or do you think this is just a ploy to get the Jewish
vote?
MAHER: I think this is all -- this has everything to do with the fact
that George Bush is a born-again Christian. OK, and this is why
religion is so dangerous in our society. Because George Bush is not
just a Christian. He's a born-again, they believe Jesus is coming back
any day now. And they want everything to be perfect for him. They call
it the rapture, right?
KING: Why is that bad?
MAHER: Well, Thomas Jefferson said the book of revelations was the
ravings of a lunatic. George Bush organizes his foreign policy around
it. That's why it's bad. Because his decisions about Israel are
affected by his religious beliefs.
KING: You mean that Christ is coming back Israel.
MAHER: Jesus is coming back, and he's not coming back to Toledo,
Larry, he's coming back to his home, which is Jerusalem, which has to
be in Jewish hands because the Jews have a very important role to play
when Jesus comes back, which is, of course, to be dead. Because there
can't be any Jews around.
KING: That's right, yes.
MAHER: I mean, this is scary stuff. Because it's completely
irrational. It's like half this country wants to guide our ship of
state by a compass. A compass, something that works by science and
rationality, and imperial wisdom. And half this country wants to kill
a chicken and read the entrails like they used to do in the old Roman
Empire. And I'm with the compass people.
.. . .
KING: Carbondale, Illinois.
CALLER: How do we get southern voters voting Democrat again? Thank
you, Bill. Thank you, Larry.
KING: Will the South ever vote Democratic?
MAHER: You know, that's a sore point with me, the south. The way that
they have the stranglehold over the electorate. Because, excuse me,
and I love playing to red states, because when I play the red states
my stand-up act I get all the people 40 don't usually have someone
like me come to their state. So there's a great bonding.
And I feel for them, because there's a lot of smart people in the
south. But in general, it is the dumbest part of the country. Excuse
me. It is. And also, they're the super patriots. The one part of the
country that ever actually seceded. The one part of the country that
ever actually committed treason. And they seem to lead in how we are
supposed to think. Because they're more religious, they're more
patriotic and I think it's just a disservice to our...
KING: You think in modern-day America you could still claim a whole
region is dumber than another region?
MAHER: They lead the region in dumbness, yes, they do. Because there's
just too many people who think that every problem can be solved by
either more guns or more Jesus. And like I said, I'm with the people
who are following the compass. Not the people who are reading the
entrails of the chicken. They're the people who are reading the
entrails of the chicken.
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0407/22/lkl.00.html
.
|
|
| User: "Holden" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
27 Jul 2004 11:38:11 AM |
|
|
Immortalist wrote:
"William Daffer" <whdaffer@wabcmail.com> wrote in message
news:QridnY7EmOokCJjcRVn-vg@giganews.com...
"Immortalist" <Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> writes:
[snip]
5. "Some (Z's) decisions about X are affected by their (y) beliefs."
Bush is an admitted born-again Christian, and there is plenty of
evidence to document how born again Christians think. If you
subscribe to a particular ideology, doesn't it go without saying
that you adhere to the principles contained within that doctrine?
Do you think one could be a born again, or a communist, or a klu
klux klan member, or zionist without having those ideas affect your
policy decisions?
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or
argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the
author of or the person p resenting the claim or
argument.
[snip]
Except that this isn't an ad hominmen. The proposition being
asserted is that Bush's religious beliefs adversely affect his
foreign policy. It certainly isn't arguing ad hominem to adduce
evidence for that assertion, even if that evidence is delivered
with a bit of a sneer.
Bush is a born again Christian
Born again Christians behave in paricular ways
therefore;
Bush behaves in particular ways because he is a born again Christian.
Clear case of circumstantial ad hom.
hmm, let's try this again -
All born again christians believe in the tenets of christianity.
Bush is a born again christian.
Therefore, Bush believes in the tenets of christianity.
The question at hand is whether his religion influences his politics. A
requirement of ad hominem attacks is that remarks should be directed at the
argument instead of the man who puts forth the argument, but in this case
the argument is the man himself.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Captain Compassion" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
27 Jul 2004 11:51:11 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:38:11 -0500, "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com>
wrote:
Immortalist wrote:
"William Daffer" <whdaffer@wabcmail.com> wrote in message
news:QridnY7EmOokCJjcRVn-vg@giganews.com...
"Immortalist" <Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> writes:
[snip]
5. "Some (Z's) decisions about X are affected by their (y) beliefs."
Bush is an admitted born-again Christian, and there is plenty of
evidence to document how born again Christians think. If you
subscribe to a particular ideology, doesn't it go without saying
that you adhere to the principles contained within that doctrine?
Do you think one could be a born again, or a communist, or a klu
klux klan member, or zionist without having those ideas affect your
policy decisions?
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or
argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the
author of or the person p resenting the claim or
argument.
[snip]
Except that this isn't an ad hominmen. The proposition being
asserted is that Bush's religious beliefs adversely affect his
foreign policy. It certainly isn't arguing ad hominem to adduce
evidence for that assertion, even if that evidence is delivered
with a bit of a sneer.
Bush is a born again Christian
Born again Christians behave in paricular ways
therefore;
Bush behaves in particular ways because he is a born again Christian.
Clear case of circumstantial ad hom.
hmm, let's try this again -
All born again christians believe in the tenets of christianity.
Bush is a born again christian.
Therefore, Bush believes in the tenets of christianity.
The question at hand is whether his religion influences his politics. A
requirement of ad hominem attacks is that remarks should be directed at the
argument instead of the man who puts forth the argument, but in this case
the argument is the man himself.
All Christians are born again.
"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John
3:3).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
'That ideological base (Kyoto) can be juxtaposed and compared with
man-hating totalitarian ideology with which we had the bad fortune to
deal during the 20th century, such as National Socialism, Marxism,
Eugenics, Lysenkoism and so on. All methods of distorting information
existing in the world have been committed to prove the alleged validity
of these theories. Misinformation, falsification, fabrication, mythology,
propaganda. Because what is offered cannot be qualified in any other way
than myth, nonsense and absurdity.' - Andrei Illarionov Russian Economist
"Long term commitment in relationships is only necessary because it takes
so damn long to raise children. Marriage may well be some kind of trick
to keep the males around beyond sexual satiation." -- Captain Compassion
"Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life.
--Will Durant
Joseph R. Darancette
res0mp8t@NOSPAMverizon.net
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ninure Saunders" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
28 Jul 2004 08:43:17 AM |
|
|
In article <6i1dg0h75mmvb78756q56psdoi7j6jdo0f@4ax.com>, Captain
Compassion <res0mp8t@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote:
-On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:38:11 -0500, "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com>
-wrote:
-
->Immortalist wrote:
->> "William Daffer" <whdaffer@wabcmail.com> wrote in message
->> news:QridnY7EmOokCJjcRVn-vg@giganews.com...
->>> "Immortalist" <Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> writes:
->>>
->>> [snip]
->>>
->>>> 5. "Some (Z's) decisions about X are affected by their (y) beliefs."
->>>>
->>>>> Bush is an admitted born-again Christian, and there is plenty of
->>>>> evidence to document how born again Christians think. If you
->>>>> subscribe to a particular ideology, doesn't it go without saying
->>>>> that you adhere to the principles contained within that doctrine?
->>>>> Do you think one could be a born again, or a communist, or a klu
->>>>> klux klan member, or zionist without having those ideas affect your
->>>>> policy decisions?
->>>>>
->>>>
->>>> An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or
->>>> argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the
->>>> author of or the person p resenting the claim or
->>>> argument.
->>>
->>> [snip]
->>>
->>>
->>> Except that this isn't an ad hominmen. The proposition being
->>> asserted is that Bush's religious beliefs adversely affect his
->>> foreign policy. It certainly isn't arguing ad hominem to adduce
->>> evidence for that assertion, even if that evidence is delivered
->>> with a bit of a sneer.
->>>
->>
->> Bush is a born again Christian
->> Born again Christians behave in paricular ways
->>
->> therefore;
->>
->> Bush behaves in particular ways because he is a born again Christian.
->>
->> Clear case of circumstantial ad hom.
->
->
->hmm, let's try this again -
->
->All born again christians believe in the tenets of christianity.
->
->Bush is a born again christian.
->
->Therefore, Bush believes in the tenets of christianity.
->
->The question at hand is whether his religion influences his politics. A
->requirement of ad hominem attacks is that remarks should be directed at the
->argument instead of the man who puts forth the argument, but in this case
->the argument is the man himself.
->
-All Christians are born again.
-
-"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John
-3:3).
-
Not all "christians" are "born-again".
On the 20th Century America "born ahain Christian" toll on a specigic
meaning which wpi;d exclude the overwhelming majority of the World's
:Christians"...Catholics, Othodox, the Anglican Community, Litherans,
Quakers would ll be outside the definition.
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
http://Rainbow-Christian.tk
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk
Take my polls
http://ninure.100megsfree5.com
My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk
My Online Diary
http://www.ninure.deardiary.net
-
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
.
|
|
|
| User: "Captain Compassion" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
28 Jul 2004 10:52:41 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:43:17 GMT,
RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk (Ninure Saunders) wrote:
In article <6i1dg0h75mmvb78756q56psdoi7j6jdo0f@4ax.com>, Captain
Compassion <res0mp8t@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote:
-On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:38:11 -0500, "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com>
-wrote:
-
->Immortalist wrote:
->> "William Daffer" <whdaffer@wabcmail.com> wrote in message
->> news:QridnY7EmOokCJjcRVn-vg@giganews.com...
->>> "Immortalist" <Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> writes:
->>>
->>> [snip]
->>>
->>>> 5. "Some (Z's) decisions about X are affected by their (y) beliefs."
->>>>
->>>>> Bush is an admitted born-again Christian, and there is plenty of
->>>>> evidence to document how born again Christians think. If you
->>>>> subscribe to a particular ideology, doesn't it go without saying
->>>>> that you adhere to the principles contained within that doctrine?
->>>>> Do you think one could be a born again, or a communist, or a klu
->>>>> klux klan member, or zionist without having those ideas affect your
->>>>> policy decisions?
->>>>>
->>>>
->>>> An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or
->>>> argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the
->>>> author of or the person p resenting the claim or
->>>> argument.
->>>
->>> [snip]
->>>
->>>
->>> Except that this isn't an ad hominmen. The proposition being
->>> asserted is that Bush's religious beliefs adversely affect his
->>> foreign policy. It certainly isn't arguing ad hominem to adduce
->>> evidence for that assertion, even if that evidence is delivered
->>> with a bit of a sneer.
->>>
->>
->> Bush is a born again Christian
->> Born again Christians behave in paricular ways
->>
->> therefore;
->>
->> Bush behaves in particular ways because he is a born again Christian.
->>
->> Clear case of circumstantial ad hom.
->
->
->hmm, let's try this again -
->
->All born again christians believe in the tenets of christianity.
->
->Bush is a born again christian.
->
->Therefore, Bush believes in the tenets of christianity.
->
->The question at hand is whether his religion influences his politics. A
->requirement of ad hominem attacks is that remarks should be directed at the
->argument instead of the man who puts forth the argument, but in this case
->the argument is the man himself.
->
-All Christians are born again.
-
-"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John
-3:3).
-
Not all "christians" are "born-again".
On the 20th Century America "born ahain Christian" toll on a specigic
meaning which wpi;d exclude the overwhelming majority of the World's
:Christians"...Catholics, Othodox, the Anglican Community, Litherans,
Quakers would ll be outside the definition.
So the words of Jesus are not to be taken literally? Astounding.
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
http://Rainbow-Christian.tk
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk
Take my polls
http://ninure.100megsfree5.com
My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk
My Online Diary
http://www.ninure.deardiary.net
-
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
----------------------------------------------------------------------
'That ideological base (Kyoto) can be juxtaposed and compared with
man-hating totalitarian ideology with which we had the bad fortune to
deal during the 20th century, such as National Socialism, Marxism,
Eugenics, Lysenkoism and so on. All methods of distorting information
existing in the world have been committed to prove the alleged validity
of these theories. Misinformation, falsification, fabrication, mythology,
propaganda. Because what is offered cannot be qualified in any other way
than myth, nonsense and absurdity.' - Andrei Illarionov Russian Economist
"Long term commitment in relationships is only necessary because it takes
so damn long to raise children. Marriage may well be some kind of trick
to keep the males around beyond sexual satiation." -- Captain Compassion
"Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life.
--Will Durant
Joseph R. Darancette
res0mp8t@NOSPAMverizon.net
.
|
|
|
| User: "William Daffer" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
28 Jul 2004 06:46:15 PM |
|
|
Captain Compassion <res0mp8t@NOSPAMverizon.net> writes:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:43:17 GMT,
RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk (Ninure Saunders) wrote:
[snip]
-"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John
-3:3).
-
Not all "christians" are "born-again".
On the 20th Century America "born ahain Christian" toll on a specigic
meaning which wpi;d exclude the overwhelming majority of the World's
:Christians"...Catholics, Othodox, the Anglican Community, Litherans,
Quakers would ll be outside the definition.
So the words of Jesus are not to be taken literally? Astounding.
Christ said "I am the door." Are you claiming that Christ is
*literally* a door. Like with hinges and a doorknob?
whd
--
APPLAUSE, n. The echo of a platitude.
APRIL FOOL, n. The March fool with another month added to his folly.
-- Ambrose Bierce: _The Devil's Dictionary_
.
|
|
|
| User: "Captain Compassion" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
28 Jul 2004 08:53:28 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:46:15 -0700, William Daffer
<whdaffer@wabcmail.com> wrote:
Captain Compassion <res0mp8t@NOSPAMverizon.net> writes:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:43:17 GMT,
RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk (Ninure Saunders) wrote:
[snip]
-"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John
-3:3).
-
Not all "christians" are "born-again".
On the 20th Century America "born ahain Christian" toll on a specigic
meaning which wpi;d exclude the overwhelming majority of the World's
:Christians"...Catholics, Othodox, the Anglican Community, Litherans,
Quakers would ll be outside the definition.
So the words of Jesus are not to be taken literally? Astounding.
Christ said "I am the door." Are you claiming that Christ is
*literally* a door. Like with hinges and a doorknob?
Possibly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
'That ideological base (Kyoto) can be juxtaposed and compared with
man-hating totalitarian ideology with which we had the bad fortune to
deal during the 20th century, such as National Socialism, Marxism,
Eugenics, Lysenkoism and so on. All methods of distorting information
existing in the world have been committed to prove the alleged validity
of these theories. Misinformation, falsification, fabrication, mythology,
propaganda. Because what is offered cannot be qualified in any other way
than myth, nonsense and absurdity.' - Andrei Illarionov Russian Economist
"Long term commitment in relationships is only necessary because it takes
so damn long to raise children. Marriage may well be some kind of trick
to keep the males around beyond sexual satiation." -- Captain Compassion
"Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life.
--Will Durant
Joseph R. Darancette
res0mp8t@NOSPAMverizon.net
.
|
|
|
| User: "William Daffer" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
28 Jul 2004 11:43:39 PM |
|
|
Captain Compassion <res0mp8t@NOSPAMverizon.net> writes:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:46:15 -0700, William Daffer
<whdaffer@wabcmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
So the words of Jesus are not to be taken literally? Astounding.
Christ said "I am the door." Are you claiming that Christ is
*literally* a door. Like with hinges and a doorknob?
Possibly.
Not so astounded now, are you?
[snip]
whd
--
CLAIRVOYANT, n. A person, commonly a woman, who has the power of
seeing that which is invisible to her patron, namely, that he is a
blockhead.
-- Ambrose Bierce: _The Devil's Dictionary_
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Holden" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
29 Jul 2004 09:48:53 AM |
|
|
William Daffer wrote:
Captain Compassion <res0mp8t@NOSPAMverizon.net> writes:
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:43:17 GMT,
RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk (Ninure Saunders) wrote:
[snip]
-"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"
(John
-3:3).
-
Not all "christians" are "born-again".
On the 20th Century America "born ahain Christian" toll on a
specigic meaning which wpi;d exclude the overwhelming majority of
the World's
Christians"...Catholics, Othodox, the Anglican Community,
Litherans,
Quakers would ll be outside the definition.
So the words of Jesus are not to be taken literally? Astounding.
Christ said "I am the door." Are you claiming that Christ is
*literally* a door. Like with hinges and a doorknob?
Isn't he also a part of God who in turn is part of everything in the world?
And isn't a door something?
So yes, saying that he is literally a door is no more far-fetched than your
average theistic fantasy.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Ninure Saunders" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
29 Jul 2004 08:09:55 AM |
|
|
In article <asifg0pudjte55gq0ia1ud5rpn3bot9kh9@4ax.com>, Captain
Compassion <res0mp8t@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote:
-On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:43:17 GMT,
-RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk (Ninure Saunders) wrote:
-
->In article <6i1dg0h75mmvb78756q56psdoi7j6jdo0f@4ax.com>, Captain
->Compassion <res0mp8t@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote:
->
->-On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:38:11 -0500, "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com>
->-wrote:
->-
->->Immortalist wrote:
->->> "William Daffer" <whdaffer@wabcmail.com> wrote in message
->->> news:QridnY7EmOokCJjcRVn-vg@giganews.com...
->->>> "Immortalist" <Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> writes:
->->>>
->->>> [snip]
->->>>
->->>>> 5. "Some (Z's) decisions about X are affected by their (y) beliefs."
->->>>>
->->>>>> Bush is an admitted born-again Christian, and there is plenty of
->->>>>> evidence to document how born again Christians think. If you
->->>>>> subscribe to a particular ideology, doesn't it go without saying
->->>>>> that you adhere to the principles contained within that doctrine?
->->>>>> Do you think one could be a born again, or a communist, or a klu
->->>>>> klux klan member, or zionist without having those ideas affect your
->->>>>> policy decisions?
->->>>>>
->->>>>
->->>>> An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or
->->>>> argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the
->->>>> author of or the person p resenting the claim or
->->>>> argument.
->->>>
->->>> [snip]
->->>>
->->>>
->->>> Except that this isn't an ad hominmen. The proposition being
->->>> asserted is that Bush's religious beliefs adversely affect his
->->>> foreign policy. It certainly isn't arguing ad hominem to adduce
->->>> evidence for that assertion, even if that evidence is delivered
->->>> with a bit of a sneer.
->->>>
->->>
->->> Bush is a born again Christian
->->> Born again Christians behave in paricular ways
->->>
->->> therefore;
->->>
->->> Bush behaves in particular ways because he is a born again Christian.
->->>
->->> Clear case of circumstantial ad hom.
->->
->->
->->hmm, let's try this again -
->->
->->All born again christians believe in the tenets of christianity.
->->
->->Bush is a born again christian.
->->
->->Therefore, Bush believes in the tenets of christianity.
->->
->->The question at hand is whether his religion influences his politics. A
->->requirement of ad hominem attacks is that remarks should be directed at the
->->argument instead of the man who puts forth the argument, but in this case
->->the argument is the man himself.
->->
->-All Christians are born again.
->-
->-"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John
->-3:3).
->-
->
->Not all "christians" are "born-again".
->
->In the 20th Century America "born again Christian" toll on a specigic
->meaning which wpi;d exclude the overwhelming majority of the World's
->:Christians"...Catholics, Othodox, the Anglican Community, Litherans,
->Quakers would ll be outside the definition.
->
-So the words of Jesus are not to be taken literally? Astounding.
You might want to direct that question to Bush, who seems to think not.
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
http://Rainbow-Christian.tk
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk
Take my polls
http://ninure.100megsfree5.com
My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk
My Online Diary
http://www.ninure.deardiary.net
-
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Holden" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
26 Jul 2004 11:55:52 AM |
|
|
Immortalist wrote:
"ta" < > wrote in message
news:MskMc.21467$yF.21105@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
Rafeek wrote:
On 23 Jul 2004 13:11:31 -0700, (ta) wrote:
MAHER: Well, Thomas Jefferson said the book of revelations was the
ravings of a lunatic. George Bush organizes his foreign policy
around it. That's why it's bad. Because his decisions about Israel
are affected by his religious beliefs.
1. "Because his decisions about Israel are affected by his religious
beliefs."
2. "Dubya's decisions about Israel are affected by his religious
beliefs."
3. "Dubya's decisions about X are affected by his religious beliefs."
4. "Dubya's decisions about X are affected by his (y) beliefs."
5. "Some (Z's) decisions about X are affected by their (y) beliefs."
6. THEREFORE Some people's decisions about political choices are
affected by their personal beliefs.
Truely a revelation!
KING: You mean that Christ is coming back Israel.
MAHER: Jesus is coming back, and he's not coming back to Toledo,
Larry, he's coming back to his home, which is Jerusalem, which has
to be in Jewish hands
Is there any documented evidence that Bush thinks this way? I.E.
has he actually SAID any of this stuff? (aside from the usual vague
pandering to bible-thumpers)...?
5. "Some (Z's) decisions about X are affected by their (y) beliefs."
Bush is an admitted born-again Christian, and there is plenty of
evidence to document how born again Christians think. If you
subscribe to a particular ideology, doesn't it go without saying
that you adhere to the principles contained within that doctrine? Do
you think one could be a born again, or a communist, or a klu klux
klan member, or zionist without having those ideas affect your
policy decisions?
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or
argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the
author of or the person p resenting the claim or argument. Typically,
this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the
character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her
actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the
person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be
evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is
making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following
form:
1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
3. Therefore A's claim is false.
The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the
character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most
cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made
(or the quality of the argument being made).
The beliefs of born again christians do not have any bearing on the truth or
falsity of the claims being made by this born again christian? Usenet is
full of ad hominem attacks, and this guy points out one of the rare
instances that is *not* ad hominem, that is actually central to the position
being discussed.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Immortalist" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
26 Jul 2004 12:29:46 PM |
|
|
"Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> wrote in message
news:2mkrcrFnjgjlU1@uni-berlin.de...
Immortalist wrote:
"ta" < > wrote in message
news:MskMc.21467$yF.21105@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
Rafeek wrote:
On 23 Jul 2004 13:11:31 -0700, (ta) wrote:
MAHER: Well, Thomas Jefferson said the book of revelations was the
ravings of a lunatic. George Bush organizes his foreign policy
around it. That's why it's bad. Because his decisions about Israel
are affected by his religious beliefs.
1. "Because his decisions about Israel are affected by his religious
beliefs."
2. "Dubya's decisions about Israel are affected by his religious
beliefs."
3. "Dubya's decisions about X are affected by his religious beliefs."
4. "Dubya's decisions about X are affected by his (y) beliefs."
5. "Some (Z's) decisions about X are affected by their (y) beliefs."
6. THEREFORE Some people's decisions about political choices are
affected by their personal beliefs.
Truely a revelation!
KING: You mean that Christ is coming back Israel.
MAHER: Jesus is coming back, and he's not coming back to Toledo,
Larry, he's coming back to his home, which is Jerusalem, which has
to be in Jewish hands
Is there any documented evidence that Bush thinks this way? I.E.
has he actually SAID any of this stuff? (aside from the usual vague
pandering to bible-thumpers)...?
5. "Some (Z's) decisions about X are affected by their (y) beliefs."
Bush is an admitted born-again Christian, and there is plenty of
evidence to document how born again Christians think. If you
subscribe to a particular ideology, doesn't it go without saying
that you adhere to the principles contained within that doctrine? Do
you think one could be a born again, or a communist, or a klu klux
klan member, or zionist without having those ideas affect your
policy decisions?
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or
argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the
author of or the person p resenting the claim or argument. Typically,
this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the
character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her
actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the
person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be
evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is
making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following
form:
1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
3. Therefore A's claim is false.
The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the
character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most
cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made
(or the quality of the argument being made).
The beliefs of born again christians do not have any bearing on the truth or
falsity of the claims being made by this born again christian? Usenet is
full of ad hominem attacks, and this guy points out one of the rare
instances that is *not* ad hominem, that is actually central to the position
being discussed.
Correct in reference to the materiel presented.
But this doesn't exclude the possibility that the poster commits one of the many
varieties of ad himinem attacks;
1 Abusive ad hominem
2 Tu Quoque (two wrongs don't make a right)
3 Circumstantial ad hominem
4 Genetic Fallacy
5 Poisoning the Well
3 - Description of Circumstantial Ad Hominem
A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy in which one attempts to attack a claim
by asserting that the person making the claim is making it simply out of self
interest. In some cases, this fallacy involves substituting an attack on a
person's circumstances (such as the person's religion, political affiliation,
ethnic background, etc.). The fallacy has the following forms:
1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B asserts that A makes claim X because it is in A's interest to
claim X.
3. Therefore claim X is false.
1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B makes an attack on A's circumstances.
3. Therefore X is false.
A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy because a person's interests and
circumstances have no bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made.
While a person's interests will provide them with motives to support certain
claims, the claims stand or fall on their own. It is also the case that a
person's circumstances (religion, political affiliation, etc.) do not affect the
truth or falsity of the claim. This is made quite clear by the following example:
"Bill claims that 1+1=2. But he is a Republican, so his claim is false."
There are times when it is prudent to suspicious of a person's claims, such as
when it is evident that the claims are being biased by the person's interests.
For example, if a tobacco company representative claims that tobacco does not
cause cancer, it would be prudent to not simply accept the claim. This is because
the person has a motivation to make the claim, whether it is true or not.
However, the mere fact that the person has a motivation to make the claim does
not make it false. For example, suppose a parent tells her son that sticking a
fork in a light socket would be dangerous. Simply because she has a motivation to
say this obviously does not make her claim false.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/circumstantial-ad-hominem.html
Explanation:
It is can be common to try and dismiss an argument by attacking an entire class
of people who presumably accept that argument. Because it addresses the
circumstances of those who hold the position, it is called the circumstantial ad
hominem and appears in the following form:
1. Of course X argues/thinks that way - just look at the circumstances
surrounding X.
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/skepticism/blfaq_fall_adhominem_index.htm
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Captain Compassion" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
23 Jul 2004 11:30:19 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:27:07 -0400, "ta" <> wrote:
Rafeek wrote:
On 23 Jul 2004 13:11:31 -0700, (ta) wrote:
MAHER: Well, Thomas Jefferson said the book of revelations was the
ravings of a lunatic. George Bush organizes his foreign policy around
it. That's why it's bad. Because his decisions about Israel are
affected by his religious beliefs.
KING: You mean that Christ is coming back Israel.
MAHER: Jesus is coming back, and he's not coming back to Toledo,
Larry, he's coming back to his home, which is Jerusalem, which has to
be in Jewish hands
Is there any documented evidence that Bush thinks this way? I.E. has
he actually SAID any of this stuff? (aside from the usual vague
pandering to bible-thumpers)...?
Bush is an admitted born-again Christian, and there is plenty of evidence to
document how born again Christians think. If you subscribe to a particular
ideology, doesn't it go without saying that you adhere to the principles
contained within that doctrine? Do you think one could be a born again, or a
communist, or a klu klux klan member, or zionist without having those ideas
affect your policy decisions?
I suspect the both you and Maher don't understand what "Born Again"
means.
All Christians are Born Again else they can't get into heaven. Jesus
said:
"...Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"
(John 3:3)
Maher is ignorant. What's your excuse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
'That ideological base (Kyoto) can be juxtaposed and compared with
man-hating totalitarian ideology with which we had the bad fortune to
deal during the 20th century, such as National Socialism, Marxism,
Eugenics, Lysenkoism and so on. All methods of distorting information
existing in the world have been committed to prove the alleged validity
of these theories. Misinformation, falsification, fabrication, mythology,
propaganda. Because what is offered cannot be qualified in any other way
than myth, nonsense and absurdity.' - Andrei Illarionov Russian Economist
"Long term commitment in relationships is only necessary because it takes
so damn long to raise children. Marriage may well be some kind of trick
to keep the males around beyond sexual satiation." -- Captain Compassion
"Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life.
--Will Durant
Joseph R. Darancette
res0mp8t@NOSPAMverizon.net
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "formerly known as cat arranger" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
23 Jul 2004 10:59:32 PM |
|
|
There is a lot of truth in what Maher says.
It's too bad he has to substitute science
for religion though. Is Dr. Mengela any better
than Osama Bin Laden?
.
|
|
|
| User: "JD" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
24 Jul 2004 06:34:57 AM |
|
|
"formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:K8lMc.13377$%p4.5081@okepread04...
There is a lot of truth in what Maher says.
It's too bad he has to substitute science
for religion though. Is Dr. Mengela any better
than Osama Bin Laden?
Science is merely a tool. It allows us to make choices that work better.
It can be used by the good and the bad alike. It is in itself neither moral
nor amoral. Just as a gun can be used to defend your family it can be used
to kill baby seals or your own children. Surely Maher means that we should
use all the tools at our disposal to make choices that work better. Let's
just hope we are not evil.
.
|
|
|
| User: "aka Guilt Trip" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
24 Jul 2004 08:34:26 PM |
|
|
"JD" <substitutive@bookbiter.de> wrote in message
news:cdthga$3k0$1@online.de...
:
: "formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
: schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:K8lMc.13377$%p4.5081@okepread04...
: >
: > There is a lot of truth in what Maher says.
: > It's too bad he has to substitute science
: > for religion though. Is Dr. Mengela any better
: > than Osama Bin Laden?
: >
: >
:
: Science is merely a tool. It allows us to make choices that work better.
: It can be used by the good and the bad alike. It is in itself neither
moral
: nor amoral. Just as a gun can be used to defend your family it can be
used
: to kill baby seals or your own children. Surely Maher means that we
should
: use all the tools at our disposal to make choices that work better. Let's
: just hope we are not evil.
:
:
If Maher had said that he believed in mankind's own
common sense and goodness and science as a tool then
that would have been one thing, but that is not what he
said. He juxtaposed science against religion.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "William Daffer" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
24 Jul 2004 03:16:36 PM |
|
|
"formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com> writes:
There is a lot of truth in what Maher says.
It's too bad he has to substitute science
for religion though. Is Dr. Mengela any better
than Osama Bin Laden?
Mengela's depredations aren't the result from his belief in science,
but from his belief in a particular racist ideology.
whd
--
INTERREGNUM, n. The period during which a monarchical country is
governed by a warm spot on the cushion of the throne. The experiment
of letting the spot grow cold has commonly been attended by most
unhappy results from the zeal of many worthy persons to make it warm
again.
-- Ambrose Bierce: _The Devil's Dictionary_
.
|
|
|
| User: "aka Guilt Trip" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
24 Jul 2004 08:36:29 PM |
|
|
"William Daffer" <whdaffer@wabcmail.com> wrote in message
news:pYadnSE6aIICXp_cRVn-uw@giganews.com...
: "formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
writes:
:
: > There is a lot of truth in what Maher says.
: > It's too bad he has to substitute science
: > for religion though. Is Dr. Mengela any better
: > than Osama Bin Laden?
:
: Mengela's depredations aren't the result from his belief in science,
: but from his belief in a particular racist ideology.
:
: whd
: --
: INTERREGNUM, n. The period during which a monarchical country is
: governed by a warm spot on the cushion of the throne. The experiment
: of letting the spot grow cold has commonly been attended by most
: unhappy results from the zeal of many worthy persons to make it warm
: again.
: -- Ambrose Bierce: _The Devil's Dictionary_
And that is an example of why science is not a good
substitute for religion. It has no moral component. When
people use science as a counter to the evils of religion then
it is just not right.
.
|
|
|
| User: "William Daffer" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
25 Jul 2004 11:30:10 AM |
|
|
"aka Guilt Trip" <no@email.com> writes:
"William Daffer" <whdaffer@wabcmail.com> wrote in message
news:pYadnSE6aIICXp_cRVn-uw@giganews.com...
: "formerly known as 'cat arranger'" <goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com>
writes:
:
: > There is a lot of truth in what Maher says.
: > It's too bad he has to substitute science
: > for religion though. Is Dr. Mengela any better
: > than Osama Bin Laden?
:
: Mengela's depredations aren't the result from his belief in science,
: but from his belief in a particular racist ideology.
And that is an example of why science is not a good
substitute for religion. It has no moral component. When
people use science as a counter to the evils of religion then
it is just not right.
*sigh* I guess it could be claimed that I was unclear. Here, let me
rephrase.
Mengela's depredations *aren't the result from his belief in
science*, but from his [unscientific] *belief* in a particular
racist ideology.
whd
--
EFFECT, n. The second of two phenomena which always occur together in
the same order. The first, called a Cause, is said to generate the
other -- which is no more sensible than it would be for one who has
never seen a dog except in the pursuit of a rabbit to declare the
rabbit the cause of a dog.
-- Ambrose Bierce: _The Devil's Dictionary_
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Holden" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
26 Jul 2004 12:26:32 PM |
|
|
aka Guilt Trip wrote:
"William Daffer" <whdaffer@wabcmail.com> wrote in message
news:pYadnSE6aIICXp_cRVn-uw@giganews.com...
"formerly known as 'cat arranger'"
<goodidea1950SPAM-SPAM@hotmail.com> writes:
There is a lot of truth in what Maher says.
It's too bad he has to substitute science
for religion though. Is Dr. Mengela any better
than Osama Bin Laden?
Mengela's depredations aren't the result from his belief in
science, but from his belief in a particular racist ideology.
whd
--
INTERREGNUM, n. The period during which a monarchical country is
governed by a warm spot on the cushion of the throne. The experiment
of letting the spot grow cold has commonly been attended by most
unhappy results from the zeal of many worthy persons to make it warm
again.
-- Ambrose Bierce: _The Devil's Dictionary_
And that is an example of why science is not a good
substitute for religion. It has no moral component. When
people use science as a counter to the evils of religion then
it is just not right.
"Every sensible man, every honest man, must hold the christian sect in
horror. 'But what shall we substitute in its place?' you say. What? A
ferocious animal has sucked the blood of my relatives. I tell you to rid
yourselves of this beast and you ask me what you shall put in its place?"
-- Voltaire
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Holden" |
|
| Title: Re: Bill Maher on Fundies and The South |
26 Jul 2004 12:25:28 PM |
|
|
formerly known as 'cat arranger' wrote:
There is a lot of truth in what Maher says.
It's too bad he has to substitute science
for religion though. Is Dr. Mengela any better
than Osama Bin Laden?
Well, you guide your ship by the chicken entrails and we'll guide our ship
by a compass and when we get home, we'll let your family know of your
decision :)
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
