Biting my tongue



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "*Nemo*"
Date: 16 Sep 2003 04:44:34 PM
Object: Biting my tongue
At work, I sit just beside what I like to call a Deep Fundy. I'm talking
a 6-Day, 4004 B.C. CREATIONIST religious nut. Nice enough guy, I
suppose. Pretty professional when it comes to work, but he does spend a
fair amount of time discussing religion. Of course, I get into my share
of discussions on the subject myself, when time permits. Which brings me
to the subject here.
I make no secret about my attitude toward religion in general and
Christianity in particular. If someone comes into my cube and the
conversation rolls around to religion, science or philosophy, I don't
lower my voice. I speak my mind. I seriously doubt that my neighbor
hears much to his liking during those conversations, but he doesn't
stand up and put in his two cents' worth at those times. Frankly, I find
it a little surprising. But I don't worry about it much.
Today, I heard someone come to his cube and start talking about a show
he saw about evolution, apparently trying to see what sort of reaction
he had to what was said. Well, he started talking about the chances that
evolution could have happened "at random," and the 2nd Law of
Thermodynamics, and all sorts of standard tripe that his ilk will trot
out when evolution is discussed.
I'll tell you, I was sorely tempted to stand up and tell him just how
bloody laughable his statements were. But... I recalled his silence when
I hold forth toward my friends and visitors. So I bit my tongue. After
all, in the grand scheme of things, shooting him down in logical flames
wouldn't have made a bit of difference. I feel pretty sure it wouldn't
have changed his mind. We would have lost maybe 10 minutes of work (as
if that makes any difference), and the implied contract of mutual
silence would have been broken.
Holding back, I learned what sort of things he must go through when I
talk about astronomy or physics or history and so on. I didn't like the
experience, but it was educational in its way. At least I've learned
that I can sit silently and listen when I hear an actual person state
these things as if he really believs them. Apparently, the folks on TV
who say that stuff aren't actors. That's good to know, I suppose...
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.

User: "JTEM"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 17 Sep 2003 12:39:50 AM
"*Nemo*" <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com> wrote

Holding back, I learned what sort of things he must go
through when I talk about astronomy or physics or
history and so on. I didn't like the experience, but it
was educational in its way. At least I've learned that
I can sit silently and listen when I hear an actual
person state these things as if he really believs them.

I hope you're young.
.
User: "Mekkala"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 17 Sep 2003 10:42:45 AM
On 17 Sep 2003, "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> screwed up his face, groaned,
pushed hard, and farted out the following message in
news:x8WcnY0RxOKQbvqiXTWJjw@comcast.com:


"*Nemo*" <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com> wrote

Holding back, I learned what sort of things he must go
through when I talk about astronomy or physics or
history and so on. I didn't like the experience, but it
was educational in its way. At least I've learned that
I can sit silently and listen when I hear an actual
person state these things as if he really believs them.


I hope you're young.

What's that supposed to mean?
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly
realized I was talking to myself!"
--Peter O'Toole.
.
User: "JTEM"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 17 Sep 2003 04:35:15 PM
"Mekkala" <joremovedathiskimtoreply@attbi.com> wrote

"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com>

"*Nemo*" <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com> wrote

Holding back, I learned what sort of things he must go
through when I talk about astronomy or physics or
history and so on. I didn't like the experience, but it
was educational in its way.

I hope you're young.

What's that supposed to mean?

That I hope he's young.
Duh.
.
User: "*Nemo*"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 17 Sep 2003 07:25:31 PM
In article <0gmdncs6PeZmT_WiXTWJkw@comcast.com>,
"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Mekkala" <joremovedathiskimtoreply@attbi.com> wrote


"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com>


"*Nemo*" <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com> wrote

Holding back, I learned what sort of things he must go
through when I talk about astronomy or physics or
history and so on. I didn't like the experience, but it
was educational in its way.


I hope you're young.


What's that supposed to mean?


That I hope he's young.

Duh.




I'm young... only when I'm in the right frame of mind...
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.
User: "Mark Richardson"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 17 Sep 2003 08:13:54 PM
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:25:31 GMT, *Nemo* <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com>
wrote:

In article <0gmdncs6PeZmT_WiXTWJkw@comcast.com>,
"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Mekkala" <joremovedathiskimtoreply@attbi.com> wrote


"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com>


"*Nemo*" <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com> wrote

Holding back, I learned what sort of things he must go
through when I talk about astronomy or physics or
history and so on. I didn't like the experience, but it
was educational in its way.


I hope you're young.


What's that supposed to mean?


That I hope he's young.

Duh.

I'm young... only when I'm in the right frame of mind...

Yeah I am young too!
Campared to really, really old things.
Mark.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
(Sarcastic Middle aged Atheists with a Sense of Humour)
-----------------------------------------------------
.
User: "Mark W"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 18 Sep 2003 03:39:30 AM
"Mark Richardson" <mark.richardson@die.spammers.die> wrote in message
news:hp1imv848ja7luo20ojnb43b1aqpr5u7ll@4ax.com...

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:25:31 GMT, *Nemo* <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com>
wrote:

In article <0gmdncs6PeZmT_WiXTWJkw@comcast.com>,
"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Mekkala" <joremovedathiskimtoreply@attbi.com> wrote


"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com>


"*Nemo*" <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com> wrote

Holding back, I learned what sort of things he must go
through when I talk about astronomy or physics or
history and so on. I didn't like the experience, but it
was educational in its way.


I hope you're young.


What's that supposed to mean?


That I hope he's young.

Duh.

I'm young... only when I'm in the right frame of mind...


Yeah I am young too!
Campared to really, really old things.

Stars?
.
User: "*Nemo*"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 18 Sep 2003 04:20:51 AM
In article <bkbqvv$r4i4m$1@ID-182137.news.uni-berlin.de>,
"Mark W" <mark.whickman@ic.ac.uk> wrote:

"Mark Richardson" <mark.richardson@die.spammers.die> wrote in message
news:hp1imv848ja7luo20ojnb43b1aqpr5u7ll@4ax.com...

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:25:31 GMT, *Nemo* <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com>
wrote:

In article <0gmdncs6PeZmT_WiXTWJkw@comcast.com>,
"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Mekkala" <joremovedathiskimtoreply@attbi.com> wrote


"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com>


"*Nemo*" <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com> wrote

Holding back, I learned what sort of things he must go
through when I talk about astronomy or physics or
history and so on. I didn't like the experience, but it
was educational in its way.


I hope you're young.


What's that supposed to mean?


That I hope he's young.

Duh.

I'm young... only when I'm in the right frame of mind...


Yeah I am young too!
Campared to really, really old things.


Stars?


In my case, redwoods...
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.

User: "Mark Richardson"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 18 Sep 2003 11:09:51 PM
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:39:30 +0100, "Mark W" <mark.whickman@ic.ac.uk>
wrote:


"Mark Richardson" <mark.richardson@die.spammers.die> wrote in message
news:hp1imv848ja7luo20ojnb43b1aqpr5u7ll@4ax.com...

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:25:31 GMT, *Nemo* <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com>
wrote:

In article <0gmdncs6PeZmT_WiXTWJkw@comcast.com>,
"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:

That I hope he's young.

Duh.

I'm young... only when I'm in the right frame of mind...


Yeah I am young too!
Campared to really, really old things.


Stars?

I was thinking more along the line of mountains.
"Old as the hills"
Mark.
.




User: "Mekkala"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 18 Sep 2003 09:27:21 AM
On 17 Sep 2003, "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> screwed up his face, groaned,
pushed hard, and farted out the following message in
news:0gmdncs6PeZmT_WiXTWJkw@comcast.com:


"Mekkala" <joremovedathiskimtoreply@attbi.com> wrote


"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com>


"*Nemo*" <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com> wrote

Holding back, I learned what sort of things he must go
through when I talk about astronomy or physics or
history and so on. I didn't like the experience, but it
was educational in its way.


I hope you're young.


What's that supposed to mean?


That I hope he's young.

*sigh* That "I hope you're young" appeared to come right out of the
blue, since it had no obvious relevancy to the topic of this thread. I
was simply curious as to what your intention was in posting that. Or
were you just kindly wishing him youth and good health?
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly
realized I was talking to myself!"
--Peter O'Toole.
.




User: "Maverick"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 17 Sep 2003 04:49:08 AM
"*Nemo*" <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com> wrote in message
news:nemo0037-512B54.17443016092003@news03.east.earthlink.net...

At work, I sit just beside what I like to call a Deep Fundy. I'm talking
a 6-Day, 4004 B.C. CREATIONIST religious nut. Nice enough guy, I
suppose. Pretty professional when it comes to work, but he does spend a
fair amount of time discussing religion. Of course, I get into my share
of discussions on the subject myself, when time permits. Which brings me
to the subject here.

I make no secret about my attitude toward religion in general and
Christianity in particular. If someone comes into my cube and the
conversation rolls around to religion, science or philosophy, I don't
lower my voice. I speak my mind. I seriously doubt that my neighbor
hears much to his liking during those conversations, but he doesn't
stand up and put in his two cents' worth at those times. Frankly, I find
it a little surprising. But I don't worry about it much.

Today, I heard someone come to his cube and start talking about a show
he saw about evolution, apparently trying to see what sort of reaction
he had to what was said. Well, he started talking about the chances that
evolution could have happened "at random," and the 2nd Law of
Thermodynamics, and all sorts of standard tripe that his ilk will trot
out when evolution is discussed.

I'll tell you, I was sorely tempted to stand up and tell him just how
bloody laughable his statements were. But... I recalled his silence when
I hold forth toward my friends and visitors. So I bit my tongue. After
all, in the grand scheme of things, shooting him down in logical flames
wouldn't have made a bit of difference. I feel pretty sure it wouldn't
have changed his mind. We would have lost maybe 10 minutes of work (as
if that makes any difference), and the implied contract of mutual
silence would have been broken.

Holding back, I learned what sort of things he must go through when I
talk about astronomy or physics or history and so on. I didn't like the
experience, but it was educational in its way. At least I've learned
that I can sit silently and listen when I hear an actual person state
these things as if he really believs them. Apparently, the folks on TV
who say that stuff aren't actors. That's good to know, I suppose...

It kinda hurts though, doesn't it?
It's like when I'm chatting somewhere, and there are people who believe in
astrology, ghosts, gods, angels, astral planes and lots of other things. Oh,
and the moon landing was a hoax, based on assumptions. For one, it is an
assumption that the moon has a mass(!) When I patiently try to explain how
things are, and what are assumptions and what isn't, I still know that they
wont understand. Instead they are convinced that I am wrong. "Science is not
the only way of knowing," they say, "and by the way, science is wrong,
especially when it doesn't agree with my own beliefs..." Ugh.
.
User: "spakka"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 17 Sep 2003 06:39:15 PM
Maverick wrote:

"*Nemo*" <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com> wrote in message
news:nemo0037-512B54.17443016092003@news03.east.earthlink.net...

I'll tell you, I was sorely tempted to stand up and tell him just how
bloody laughable his statements were. But... I recalled his silence when
I hold forth toward my friends and visitors. So I bit my tongue.

<snip>

It kinda hurts though, doesn't it?
It's like when I'm chatting somewhere, and there are people who believe in
astrology, ghosts, gods, angels, astral planes and lots of other things. Oh,
and the moon landing was a hoax, based on assumptions. For one, it is an
assumption that the moon has a mass(!) When I patiently try to explain how
things are, and what are assumptions and what isn't, I still know that they
wont understand. Instead they are convinced that I am wrong. "Science is not
the only way of knowing," they say, "and by the way, science is wrong,
especially when it doesn't agree with my own beliefs..." Ugh.

Glad you brought up the paranormal.
What are you supposed to do when confronted with a person who is
blatantly lying about a paranormal experience. I mean, when it's
gone beyond even the 'I believe that *you* believe you saw something'
platitude. Say, someone who claims to have been doing a ouija board
when the glass rose up from the table, flew across the room and
smashed against a wall (heard this one a few times). Or one of
the thousands of clowns who pretend that their cutlery bent itself
when Geller was on TV?
Is it acceptable to laugh in their faces and call them liars?
.
User: "Maverick"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 18 Sep 2003 04:59:09 AM
"spakka" <usenet_spam@m16.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Dg6ab.584$Fi2.5166226@news-text.cableinet.net...

Maverick wrote:

"*Nemo*" <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com> wrote in message
news:nemo0037-512B54.17443016092003@news03.east.earthlink.net...


I'll tell you, I was sorely tempted to stand up and tell him just how
bloody laughable his statements were. But... I recalled his silence when
I hold forth toward my friends and visitors. So I bit my tongue.


<snip>

It kinda hurts though, doesn't it?
It's like when I'm chatting somewhere, and there are people who believe

in

astrology, ghosts, gods, angels, astral planes and lots of other things.

Oh,

and the moon landing was a hoax, based on assumptions. For one, it is an
assumption that the moon has a mass(!) When I patiently try to explain

how

things are, and what are assumptions and what isn't, I still know that

they

wont understand. Instead they are convinced that I am wrong. "Science is

not

the only way of knowing," they say, "and by the way, science is wrong,
especially when it doesn't agree with my own beliefs..." Ugh.


Glad you brought up the paranormal.

What are you supposed to do when confronted with a person who is
blatantly lying about a paranormal experience. I mean, when it's
gone beyond even the 'I believe that *you* believe you saw something'
platitude. Say, someone who claims to have been doing a ouija board
when the glass rose up from the table, flew across the room and
smashed against a wall (heard this one a few times). Or one of
the thousands of clowns who pretend that their cutlery bent itself
when Geller was on TV?

Is it acceptable to laugh in their faces and call them liars?

If you do, they will claim to be victims of overskeptical and narrowminded
scientists, who, by the way, are controlled by multinational corporations
and greed and political agendas (sometimes, yes, but good science is still
good science no matter who carries it out). I think that it would be easy
for them to prove many of the things they claim to be true. It would also be
easy not to claim things even THEY must know to be untrue, or at least
unsupported.
.

User: "Robibnikoff"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 18 Sep 2003 08:57:25 AM
In article <Dg6ab.584$Fi2.5166226@news-text.cableinet.net>, spakka says...
snippage


Glad you brought up the paranormal.

What are you supposed to do when confronted with a person who is
blatantly lying about a paranormal experience. I mean, when it's
gone beyond even the 'I believe that *you* believe you saw something'
platitude. Say, someone who claims to have been doing a ouija board
when the glass rose up from the table, flew across the room and
smashed against a wall (heard this one a few times). Or one of
the thousands of clowns who pretend that their cutlery bent itself
when Geller was on TV?

Is it acceptable to laugh in their faces and call them liars?

Acceptable? That's questionable? Tempting? Yes!
I recently had lunch with a gentleman I used to work with and a friend of his.
His friend claims to be a "psychic healer" and also claims to be channelling a
certain 19th century psychic healer, as well as some other "spirits". I had to
do my best to keep a straight face during lunch. The most bizarre part of the
event was when he decided to channel one of these "healing spirits" to see if I
still have skin cancer (had that chunk removed from my face over the summer).
Well, according to this guy (or what the spirit told him), I still have skin
cancer and I should go to the dermatologist immediately and get it checked out.
Give me a break! Can you imagine walking into the doctor's office and asking to
have more cut out of your face because of a lunch-time diagnosis from some wacko
claiming to talk to spirits?!?
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557
.
User: "spakka"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 18 Sep 2003 03:29:57 PM
Robibnikoff wrote:

I recently had lunch with a gentleman I used to work with and a friend of his.
His friend claims to be a "psychic healer" and also claims to be channelling a
certain 19th century psychic healer, as well as some other "spirits". I had to
do my best to keep a straight face during lunch. The most bizarre part of the
event was when he decided to channel one of these "healing spirits" to see if I
still have skin cancer (had that chunk removed from my face over the summer).
Well, according to this guy (or what the spirit told him), I still have skin
cancer and I should go to the dermatologist immediately and get it checked out.

What a nasty fucker. My healing spirit would have told him that he was
still delusional.
.
User: "Robibnikoff"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 19 Sep 2003 10:11:51 AM
In article <9Boab.1315$Cy3.11728013@news-text.cableinet.net>, spakka says...


Robibnikoff wrote:

I recently had lunch with a gentleman I used to work with and a friend of his.
His friend claims to be a "psychic healer" and also claims to be channelling a
certain 19th century psychic healer, as well as some other "spirits". I had to
do my best to keep a straight face during lunch. The most bizarre part of the
event was when he decided to channel one of these "healing spirits" to see if I
still have skin cancer (had that chunk removed from my face over the summer).
Well, according to this guy (or what the spirit told him), I still have skin
cancer and I should go to the dermatologist immediately and get it checked out.


What a nasty fucker. My healing spirit would have told him that he was
still delusional.

LOL, well, he was actually all apologetic about it. Obviously it's not
something I'm taking seriously ;)
What would be interesting is that this guy might be hiring me to edit a book
he's writing which will detail all of this channeling he's doing of this one
particular psychic healer. Should be a hoot! I did tell him right up front that
I'm an atheist and a skeptic and he said he had no problem with that.
Unfortunately, as soon as he mentioned to his daughter that he was thinking
about hiring someone to edit, she now wants to do it - after not previously
being interested. It's still up in the air, so I might end up doing it.
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557
.



User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 17 Sep 2003 10:59:37 PM
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:39:15 GMT, spakka <usenet_spam@m16.demon.co.uk>
posted in alt.atheism:

What are you supposed to do when confronted with a person who is
blatantly lying about a paranormal experience. I mean, when it's
gone beyond even the 'I believe that *you* believe you saw something'
platitude. Say, someone who claims to have been doing a ouija board
when the glass rose up from the table, flew across the room and
smashed against a wall (heard this one a few times). Or one of
the thousands of clowns who pretend that their cutlery bent itself
when Geller was on TV?
Is it acceptable to laugh in their faces and call them liars?

Of course. I usually just ask for a demonstration, though. Then,
when they tell me WHY they can't do that, I laugh.
--
"Creationists are the best evidence we have that there is no intelligent design."
-Josef Balluch
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
User: "spakka"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 18 Sep 2003 03:04:48 AM
Al Klein wrote:

On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:39:15 GMT, spakka <usenet_spam@m16.demon.co.uk>
posted in alt.atheism:


What are you supposed to do when confronted with a person who is
blatantly lying about a paranormal experience. I mean, when it's
gone beyond even the 'I believe that *you* believe you saw something'
platitude. Say, someone who claims to have been doing a ouija board
when the glass rose up from the table, flew across the room and
smashed against a wall (heard this one a few times). Or one of
the thousands of clowns who pretend that their cutlery bent itself
when Geller was on TV?



Is it acceptable to laugh in their faces and call them liars?



Of course. I usually just ask for a demonstration, though. Then,
when they tell me WHY they can't do that, I laugh.

"With that kind of negativity, it's *no wonder* that the paranormal
refuses to manifest itself around you."
.
User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 18 Sep 2003 08:58:17 PM
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:04:48 GMT, spakka <usenet_spam@m16.demon.co.uk>
posted in alt.atheism:

"With that kind of negativity, it's *no wonder* that the paranormal
refuses to manifest itself around you."

Is that akin to "the fact that God doesn't show himself is proof that
he exists"?
--
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your
Christ."
- Mohandas Gandhi
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.




User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 17 Sep 2003 10:57:54 PM
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:49:08 +0200, "Maverick" <sh100@hotmail.com>
posted in alt.atheism:

It's like when I'm chatting somewhere, and there are people who believe in
astrology, ghosts, gods, angels, astral planes and lots of other things. Oh,
and the moon landing was a hoax, based on assumptions. For one, it is an
assumption that the moon has a mass(!) When I patiently try to explain how
things are

If it didn't have mass it wouldn't be in an orbit around a massive
body. Since it is ... :)
--
"I don't try to imagine a God; it suffices to stand in awe of the structure of the world
insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it."
- Letter to S. Flesch, April 16, 1954; Einstein Archive 30-1154
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
User: "Maverick"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 18 Sep 2003 04:59:24 AM
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:28bimvo4nn8l3t4asenpqsgedrqd36qn47@Pern.rk...

On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:49:08 +0200, "Maverick" <sh100@hotmail.com>
posted in alt.atheism:

It's like when I'm chatting somewhere, and there are people who believe

in

astrology, ghosts, gods, angels, astral planes and lots of other things.

Oh,

and the moon landing was a hoax, based on assumptions. For one, it is an
assumption that the moon has a mass(!) When I patiently try to explain

how

things are


If it didn't have mass it wouldn't be in an orbit around a massive
body. Since it is ... :)

That was just one of my arguments. I also said that the moonlandings would
have been carried out quite differently (not that she believes it happened
anyway), and the tidal forces, and the fact that all atoms have mass... But
there were moments when I thought she was just joking.
.
User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 18 Sep 2003 08:59:26 PM
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:59:24 +0200, "Maverick" <sh100@hotmail.com>
posted in alt.atheism:

That was just one of my arguments. I also said that the moonlandings would
have been carried out quite differently (not that she believes it happened
anyway), and the tidal forces

Oops, how silly of me to have missed that. It's the MASS of the moon
that causes the tides, of course.
--
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.




User: "SReeseMe"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 16 Sep 2003 08:06:35 PM

Subject: Biting my tongue
From: *Nemo*


Date: 09/16/2003 5:44 PM Eastern
At work, I sit just beside what I like to call a Deep Fundy. I'm talking
a 6-Day, 4004 B.C. CREATIONIST religious nut. Nice enough guy, I
suppose. Pretty professional when it comes to work, but he does spend a
fair amount of time discussing religion.
Of course, I get into my share
of discussions on the subject myself, when time permits. Which brings me
to the subject here.
I make no secret about my attitude toward religion in general and
Christianity in particular. If someone comes into my cube and the
conversation rolls around to religion, science or philosophy, I don't
lower my voice. I speak my mind. I seriously doubt that my neighbor
hears much to his liking during those conversations, but he doesn't
stand up and put in his two cents' worth at those times. Frankly, I find
it a little surprising. But I don't worry about it much
Today, I heard someone come to his cube and start talking about a show
he saw about evolution, apparently trying to see what sort of reaction
he had to what was said. Well, he started talking about the chances that
evolution could have happened "at random," and the 2nd Law of
Thermodynamics, and all sorts of standard tripe that his ilk will trot
out when evolution is discussed.
I'll tell you, I was sorely tempted to stand up and tell him just how
bloody laughable his statements were. But... I recalled his silence when
I hold forth toward my friends and visitors. So I bit my tongue. After
all, in the grand scheme of things, shooting him down in logical flames
wouldn't have made a bit of
difference. I feel pretty sure it wouldn't
have changed his mind. We would have lost maybe 10 minutes of work (as
if that makes any difference), and the implied contract of mutual
silence would have been broken.
Holding back, I learned what sort of things he must go through when I
talk about astronomy or physics or history and so on. I didn't like the
experience, but it was educational in its way. At least I've learned
that I can sit silently and listen when
I hear an actual person state
these things as if he really believs them. Apparently, the folks on TV
who say that stuff aren't actors. That's good to know, I suppose...

Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html

Yeah, been there done that. You really can learn a lot about what makes a hard
core young Earth creationist tick by sitting there and listening to them. It's
sad to see how deeply they've been programed to believe what they believe.
.

User: "Sean C"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 16 Sep 2003 09:28:36 PM
In article <nemo0037-512B54.17443016092003@news03.east.earthlink.net>,
*Nemo* <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com> wrote:

I'll tell you, I was sorely tempted to stand up and tell him just how
bloody laughable his statements were. But... I recalled his silence when
I hold forth toward my friends and visitors. So I bit my tongue. After
all, in the grand scheme of things, shooting him down in logical flames
wouldn't have made a bit of difference. I feel pretty sure it wouldn't
have changed his mind. We would have lost maybe 10 minutes of work (as
if that makes any difference), and the implied contract of mutual
silence would have been broken.

Holding back, I learned what sort of things he must go through when I
talk about astronomy or physics or history and so on. I didn't like the
experience, but it was educational in its way. At least I've learned
that I can sit silently and listen when I hear an actual person state
these things as if he really believs them. Apparently, the folks on TV
who say that stuff aren't actors. That's good to know, I suppose...

Thanks for posting that. Knowing that we don't always have to respond
to that which we disagree with is an important lesson.
I suppose that most of us in this group have a strong need to express
our views, otherwise we wouldn't be here. I find I sometimes have a
compulsion whenever I see or hear something I disagree with to express
my disagreement. This is a "safe" place for me to do so with regards to
religion. I don't think this is intolerance per se--I don't wish to
stifle anyone else's views, but I don't want to let them go
unchallenged, either. If I'm proven wrong, I have no real trouble
admitting it, so it isn't an ego thing.
I have no real understanding why I have this tendency, let alone why
anybody else would feel this way. It is educational when you find
yourself compelled to confront the opposition, to refrain from doing so
and observe the feelings that engenders.
Sean C
.

User: "Brainfried Sysadmin"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 16 Sep 2003 11:55:01 PM
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:44:34 +0000, *Nemo* wrote:
-clip your cube neighbor's religious babbling and your sore tongue-
Not only have you maintained the peace, you've probably done more advocacy
than you know.
1. Maintained the peace
2. Established a boundary (don't preach in my cube, I don't teach in
yours)
3. Broken the myth that atheist are anti-Christians, set out to doom
religion, and are evil
4. He's listening in on you whenever you talk about atheism and such in
your cube. This is far more than you can hope for in a debate with him. If
he's debating, he's not listening. Debate is pointless with them anyway.
I've had tons of frustrations lately in my work. (Information Technology
working with some clueless users and some clueless IT professionals. I
expect users to be clueless; IT is not their job. It's funny what they do
and they have no say in how I do things. The clueless IT professionals,
particularly at the corporate level, are another issue.)
Recently, my boss (will be my new boss Oct 1st) taught me something
very valuable I think. It's like hunting. Don't just start firing
whenever you see a deer. You'll most likely miss and scare the deer away.
Wait for the right opportunity and have a bullet-proof case ready and then
pull the trigger. (I prefer fishing to hunting, but you get the idea.)
On an old Star Trek episode I recently saw again, Wesley Crusher takes
himself out of time with the assistance of the Traveler. (Star Trek NG)
The Traveler says something about having faith that they will solve their
own problems (currently in a phaser fight) and it is not our problem. (I
like the term "confidence" better than "faith", just stole that from James
Randi)
Therefore, I don't go looking for trouble any more (unless I can see it
can coming my way) and I wait until I'm ready to pull the trigger.
Patience, Observation, Preparation, Execution
.
User: "*Nemo*"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 17 Sep 2003 01:12:27 AM
In article <pan.2003.09.17.04.56.25.187756@way.com>,
Brainfried Sysadmin <no@way.com> wrote:

I've had tons of frustrations lately in my work. (Information Technology
working with some clueless users and some clueless IT professionals. I
expect users to be clueless; IT is not their job. It's funny what they do
and they have no say in how I do things. The clueless IT professionals,
particularly at the corporate level, are another issue.)

I'm in the same boat. My place has become a hellish sweatshop, and I'm
actively looking for a new job. What gets me is management refuses to
get more help to spread the work out more equitably while the company is
making huge profits.

Recently, my boss (will be my new boss Oct 1st) taught me something
very valuable I think. It's like hunting. Don't just start firing
whenever you see a deer. You'll most likely miss and scare the deer away.
Wait for the right opportunity and have a bullet-proof case ready and then
pull the trigger. (I prefer fishing to hunting, but you get the idea.)

I'll save that bit of wisdom for the future. I just hope I can get away
from my present place before they fire me for having a bad attitude
about working 14 hours a day, doing other peoples' work.
Bastards.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.

User: "Brainfried Sysadmin"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 16 Sep 2003 11:58:06 PM
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 04:55:01 +0000, Brainfried Sysadmin wrote:

Patience, Observation, Preparation, Execution

Whoa, that acronym is POPE.
<shudder>
.
User: "*Nemo*"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 17 Sep 2003 01:13:13 AM
In article <pan.2003.09.17.04.59.31.244456@way.com>,
Brainfried Sysadmin <no@way.com> wrote:

On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 04:55:01 +0000, Brainfried Sysadmin wrote:

Patience, Observation, Preparation, Execution


Whoa, that acronym is POPE.

<shudder>

That'll make it easier to remember. {;-)
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.



User: "Liz"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 16 Sep 2003 05:39:06 PM
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:44:34 GMT, *Nemo* <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com>
in news message
<nemo0037-512B54.17443016092003@news03.east.earthlink.net> wrote:

At work, I sit just beside what I like to call a Deep Fundy. I'm talking
a 6-Day, 4004 B.C. CREATIONIST religious nut. Nice enough guy, I
suppose. Pretty professional when it comes to work, but he does spend a
fair amount of time discussing religion. Of course, I get into my share
of discussions on the subject myself, when time permits. Which brings me
to the subject here.

I make no secret about my attitude toward religion in general and
Christianity in particular. If someone comes into my cube and the
conversation rolls around to religion, science or philosophy, I don't
lower my voice. I speak my mind. I seriously doubt that my neighbor
hears much to his liking during those conversations, but he doesn't
stand up and put in his two cents' worth at those times. Frankly, I find
it a little surprising. But I don't worry about it much.

Today, I heard someone come to his cube and start talking about a show
he saw about evolution, apparently trying to see what sort of reaction
he had to what was said. Well, he started talking about the chances that
evolution could have happened "at random," and the 2nd Law of
Thermodynamics, and all sorts of standard tripe that his ilk will trot
out when evolution is discussed.

I'll tell you, I was sorely tempted to stand up and tell him just how
bloody laughable his statements were. But... I recalled his silence when
I hold forth toward my friends and visitors. So I bit my tongue. After
all, in the grand scheme of things, shooting him down in logical flames
wouldn't have made a bit of difference. I feel pretty sure it wouldn't
have changed his mind. We would have lost maybe 10 minutes of work (as
if that makes any difference), and the implied contract of mutual
silence would have been broken.

Holding back, I learned what sort of things he must go through when I
talk about astronomy or physics or history and so on. I didn't like the
experience, but it was educational in its way. At least I've learned
that I can sit silently and listen when I hear an actual person state
these things as if he really believs them. Apparently, the folks on TV
who say that stuff aren't actors. That's good to know, I suppose...

Did you at least chuckle softly?
Überwench #658 Now a *real* atheist!
Dame Liz the Undaunted BAAWA
Charter Member of SMASH
and Queen of the known universe
.
User: "*Nemo*"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 16 Sep 2003 06:52:34 PM
In article <fm3fmv8uis2s5kcp0nndk1ig5f0o4jvuq9@4ax.com>,
Liz <ehuth1@donotspam.com> wrote:

Holding back, I learned what sort of things he must go through when I
talk about astronomy or physics or history and so on. I didn't like the
experience, but it was educational in its way. At least I've learned
that I can sit silently and listen when I hear an actual person state
these things as if he really believs them. Apparently, the folks on TV
who say that stuff aren't actors. That's good to know, I suppose...


Did you at least chuckle softly?

Well, I rolled my eyes a lot. Does that count? {;-)


Überwench #658 Now a *real* atheist!

Dame Liz the Undaunted BAAWA
Charter Member of SMASH

--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.
User: "Liz"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 16 Sep 2003 07:32:22 PM
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 23:52:34 GMT, *Nemo* <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com>
in news message
<nemo0037-071024.19522916092003@news06.east.earthlink.net> wrote:

In article <fm3fmv8uis2s5kcp0nndk1ig5f0o4jvuq9@4ax.com>,
Liz <ehuth1@donotspam.com> wrote:

Holding back, I learned what sort of things he must go through when I
talk about astronomy or physics or history and so on. I didn't like the
experience, but it was educational in its way. At least I've learned
that I can sit silently and listen when I hear an actual person state
these things as if he really believs them. Apparently, the folks on TV
who say that stuff aren't actors. That's good to know, I suppose...


Did you at least chuckle softly?

Well, I rolled my eyes a lot. Does that count? {;-)

Yes, that counts. :)
Überwench #658 Now a *real* atheist!
Dame Liz the Undaunted BAAWA
Charter Member of SMASH
and Queen of the known universe
.



User: "Mark Richardson"

Title: Re: Biting my tongue 16 Sep 2003 08:12:37 PM
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:44:34 GMT, *Nemo* <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com>
wrote:

At work, I sit just beside what I like to call a Deep Fundy. I'm talking
a 6-Day, 4004 B.C. CREATIONIST religious nut.

,snip>

Today, I heard someone come to his cube and start talking about a show
he saw about evolution, apparently trying to see what sort of reaction
he had to what was said. Well, he started talking about the chances that
evolution could have happened "at random," and the 2nd Law of
Thermodynamics, and all sorts of standard tripe that his ilk will trot
out when evolution is discussed.

I'll tell you, I was sorely tempted to stand up and tell him just how
bloody laughable his statements were. But... I recalled his silence when
I hold forth toward my friends and visitors. So I bit my tongue.

<snip>

Holding back, I learned what sort of things he must go through when I
talk about astronomy or physics or history and so on. I didn't like the
experience, but it was educational in its way. At least I've learned
that I can sit silently and listen when I hear an actual person state
these things as if he really believs them. Apparently, the folks on TV
who say that stuff aren't actors. That's good to know, I suppose...

Admirable restraint Nemo.
I think you were right to resist the urge to engage in battle.
Sometimes not attacking is the best strategy.
Hope your tongue recovers quickley.
8-)
Mark.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
(Sarcastic Middle aged Atheists with a Sense of Humour)
-----------------------------------------------------
.


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You are the most senior member here Michelle and I would think some humanity and compassion would be on the tip of your tongue instead of promoting profanity and hatred...what a testament to atheism.
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FLIP-FLOP On Biting Worms.
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