| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Josef Balluch" |
| Date: |
22 Mar 2005 02:14:18 AM |
| Object: |
Born to be Atheist |
A few months back there was a news item that "spirituality" had been
found to have a genetic component. Further studies, involving twins, has
confirmed this finding.
http://tinyurl.com/5z556
Regards,
Josef
Socrates thought, and so do I, that the wisest theory about the gods is
no theory at all.
-- Michel Eyquem De Montaigne
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Born to be Atheist |
22 Mar 2005 06:34:54 AM |
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In article <MPG.1ca949852f9ae8e4989a2c@206.172.150.13>,
Josef Balluch <josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
A few months back there was a news item that "spirituality" had been
found to have a genetic component. Further studies, involving twins, has
confirmed this finding.
http://tinyurl.com/5z556
Religion is a birth defect? Fortunately many of us were 'cured'.
Regards,
Josef
Socrates thought, and so do I, that the wisest theory about the gods is
no theory at all.
-- Michel Eyquem De Montaigne
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense,
founded on the Christian religion..."
Joel Barlow, Treaty of Tripoli (1796)
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: Born to be Atheist |
23 Mar 2005 03:50:13 AM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, johac poured fuel on the fire with
the following:
In article <MPG.1ca949852f9ae8e4989a2c@206.172.150.13>,
Josef Balluch <josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
A few months back there was a news item that "spirituality" had been
found to have a genetic component. Further studies, involving twins, has
confirmed this finding.
http://tinyurl.com/5z556
Religion is a birth defect? Fortunately many of us were 'cured'.
Methinks it is not so much a defect as a relic of our past. Somewhat
like the situation where an occasional person is born with a tail.
Regards,
Josef
Let us face ourselves bravely as we are. For only a philosophy that
recognizes reality can lead us into true happiness, and only that kind
of philosophy is sound and healthy.
-- Lin Yutang
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Born to be Atheist |
23 Mar 2005 06:47:43 AM |
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In article <MPG.1caab17f153d1451989a2e@206.172.150.13>,
Josef Balluch <josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
In a message sent 'round the world, johac poured fuel on the fire with
the following:
In article <MPG.1ca949852f9ae8e4989a2c@206.172.150.13>,
Josef Balluch <josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
A few months back there was a news item that "spirituality" had been
found to have a genetic component. Further studies, involving twins, has
confirmed this finding.
http://tinyurl.com/5z556
Religion is a birth defect? Fortunately many of us were 'cured'.
Methinks it is not so much a defect as a relic of our past. Somewhat
like the situation where an occasional person is born with a tail.
Like fundy preachers?
If there is a gene involved, I think that it may have something to do
with human curiosity and problem solving. Early humans, lacking
knowledge, might have tried to explain the natural world around them,
even such simple things as the weather, the seasons, or the sun rising
and setting every day, as due to some force beyond their understanding.
Unfortunately, along the way, some idiot decided to give that 'force'
human attributes and that's how the first god was created.
Regards,
Josef
Let us face ourselves bravely as we are. For only a philosophy that
recognizes reality can lead us into true happiness, and only that kind
of philosophy is sound and healthy.
-- Lin Yutang
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense,
founded on the Christian religion..."
Joel Barlow, Treaty of Tripoli (1796)
.
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: Born to be Atheist |
24 Mar 2005 01:49:12 AM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, johac poured fuel on the fire with
the following:
In article <MPG.1caab17f153d1451989a2e@206.172.150.13>,
Josef Balluch <josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
....
Methinks it is not so much a defect as a relic of our past. Somewhat
like the situation where an occasional person is born with a tail.
Like fundy preachers?
Relics of the past? Most definitely.
Having a tail? Wouldn't surprise me. < chuckle! >
If there is a gene involved, I think that it may have something to do
with human curiosity and problem solving. Early humans, lacking
knowledge, might have tried to explain the natural world around them,
even such simple things as the weather, the seasons, or the sun rising
and setting every day, as due to some force beyond their understanding.
Unfortunately, along the way, some idiot decided to give that 'force'
human attributes and that's how the first god was created.
The gene called VMAT2 is involved in the control of neurotransmitters
such as serotonin and dopamine. These neurotransmitters influence
emotion and mood. Imbalances of these neurotransmitters are implicated
in brain disorders such a schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.
It has also been suggested that there is likely more than one gene
involved in "spirituality".
Regards,
Josef
We do not know a truth without knowing its cause.
-- Aristotle
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| User: "Siobhan Burke" |
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| Title: Re: Born to be Atheist |
24 Mar 2005 03:55:41 PM |
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In article <jhachm-F07A85.22474322032005@news.giganews.com>,
jhachm@ixpres.com says...
In article <MPG.1caab17f153d1451989a2e@206.172.150.13>,
Josef Balluch <josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
In a message sent 'round the world, johac poured fuel on the fire with
the following:
In article <MPG.1ca949852f9ae8e4989a2c@206.172.150.13>,
Josef Balluch <josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
A few months back there was a news item that "spirituality" had been
found to have a genetic component. Further studies, involving twins, has
confirmed this finding.
http://tinyurl.com/5z556
Religion is a birth defect? Fortunately many of us were 'cured'.
Methinks it is not so much a defect as a relic of our past. Somewhat
like the situation where an occasional person is born with a tail.
Like fundy preachers?
If there is a gene involved, I think that it may have something to do
with human curiosity and problem solving. Early humans, lacking
knowledge, might have tried to explain the natural world around them,
even such simple things as the weather, the seasons, or the sun rising
and setting every day, as due to some force beyond their understanding.
Unfortunately, along the way, some idiot decided to give that 'force'
human attributes and that's how the first god was created.
And shortly thereafter some lazy ***** figured out that if
he told everyone that <insert god-name here> told him that if
everyone didn't cough up a fat share of the goodies they'd be
punished, he'd never have to herd another smelly goat or grub in
the dirt ever again.
--
Siobhan - a.a. #2201
siobhan.burke@CARRIERatt.net
Drop CARRIER to email
"But as a general rule, when things look bad there's always some
***** who can make them worse." -- Terry Pratchett
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: Born to be Atheist |
23 Mar 2005 02:16:40 PM |
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johac wrote:
In article <MPG.1caab17f153d1451989a2e@206.172.150.13>,
Josef Balluch <josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
In a message sent 'round the world, johac poured fuel on the fire with
the following:
In article <MPG.1ca949852f9ae8e4989a2c@206.172.150.13>,
Josef Balluch <josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
A few months back there was a news item that "spirituality" had been
found to have a genetic component. Further studies, involving twins,
has confirmed this finding.
http://tinyurl.com/5z556
Religion is a birth defect? Fortunately many of us were 'cured'.
Methinks it is not so much a defect as a relic of our past. Somewhat
like the situation where an occasional person is born with a tail.
Like fundy preachers?
If there is a gene involved, I think that it may have something to do
with human curiosity and problem solving. Early humans, lacking
knowledge, might have tried to explain the natural world around them,
even such simple things as the weather, the seasons, or the sun rising
and setting every day, as due to some force beyond their understanding.
Unfortunately, along the way, some idiot decided to give that 'force'
human attributes and that's how the first god was created.
Probbaly god was invented by the first schizophrenic who could talk.
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Born to be Atheist |
22 Mar 2005 11:08:46 AM |
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On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:34:54 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:
In article <MPG.1ca949852f9ae8e4989a2c@206.172.150.13>,
Josef Balluch <josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
A few months back there was a news item that "spirituality" had been
found to have a genetic component. Further studies, involving twins, has
confirmed this finding.
http://tinyurl.com/5z556
Religion is a birth defect? Fortunately many of us were 'cured'.
I see it as the power of the human mind (and possibly 'higher'
animals) to imagine, create and dream. Possibly our greatest, and
most dreadful creation, is that of gods.
Rather like the atomic bomb, it is demon that cannot be put
back into the bottle once invented and will continue to haunt us
in the dreadful ways we have already seen. I can only hope
that the strength of our 'good side' can overcome this 'dark
side we have which is born of fear.
We are the music-makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers,
And sitting by desolate streams.
World-losers and world-forsakers,
Upon whom the pale moon gleams;
Yet we are the movers and shakers,
Of the world forever, it seems.
With wonderful deathless ditties
We build up the world's great cities,
And out of a fabulous story
We fashion an empire's glory:
One man with a dream, at pleasure,
Shall go forth and conquer a crown;
And three with a new song's measure
Can trample an empire down.
We, in the ages lying
In the buried past of the earth,
Built Nineveh with our sighing,
And Babel itself with our mirth;
And o'erthrew them with prophesying
To the old of the new world's worth;
For each age is a dream that is dying,
Or one that is coming to birth.
-- Arthur O'Shaughnessy
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: Born to be Atheist |
22 Mar 2005 02:44:17 PM |
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Les Hellawell wrote:
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:34:54 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:
In article <MPG.1ca949852f9ae8e4989a2c@206.172.150.13>,
Josef Balluch <josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
A few months back there was a news item that "spirituality" had been
found to have a genetic component. Further studies, involving twins, has
confirmed this finding.
http://tinyurl.com/5z556
Religion is a birth defect? Fortunately many of us were 'cured'.
I see it as the power of the human mind (and possibly 'higher'
animals) to imagine, create and dream. Possibly our greatest, and
most dreadful creation, is that of gods.
Viewed from a strictly human standpoint, the gods can hardly be called the
greatest of human creations. In virtually all cultures of every time and
place, the existence of gods or God is simply assumed but not created. The
nature and embellishment of this inherent assumption is the area where human
imagination and creativeness begins.
Rather like the atomic bomb, it is demon that cannot be put
back into the bottle once invented and will continue to haunt us
in the dreadful ways we have already seen.
So religion is the enemy? Well, we are all more comfortable when we have an
enemy to combat and a scapegoat to blame. Some choose religion as enemy and
scapegoat. Others choose atheism.
I can only hope
that the strength of our 'good side' can overcome this 'dark
side'
Isn't it a bit simplistic to attribute the endless list of human faults,
failures and perversions to religion as our 'dark side'? It's the human
condition and what it does with whatever is at hand, be it religion or no
religion.
we have which is born of fear.
The which is born of self-centeredness resulting in war, fear, greed, hatred,
abuse, torture, murder, adultery, snobbery, addiction, etc., etc.
Denny
We are the music-makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers,
And sitting by desolate streams.
World-losers and world-forsakers,
Upon whom the pale moon gleams;
Yet we are the movers and shakers,
Of the world forever, it seems.
With wonderful deathless ditties
We build up the world's great cities,
And out of a fabulous story
We fashion an empire's glory:
One man with a dream, at pleasure,
Shall go forth and conquer a crown;
And three with a new song's measure
Can trample an empire down.
We, in the ages lying
In the buried past of the earth,
Built Nineveh with our sighing,
And Babel itself with our mirth;
And o'erthrew them with prophesying
To the old of the new world's worth;
For each age is a dream that is dying,
Or one that is coming to birth.
-- Arthur O'Shaughnessy
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: Born to be Atheist |
23 Mar 2005 12:50:29 AM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, dgillesp poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
Les Hellawell wrote:
....
I see it as the power of the human mind (and possibly 'higher'
animals) to imagine, create and dream. Possibly our greatest, and
most dreadful creation, is that of gods.
Viewed from a strictly human standpoint, the gods can hardly be called the
greatest of human creations.
Sure they can. The word "greatest" is more than just a synonym for "most
magnificent".
In virtually all cultures of every time and
place, the existence of gods or God is simply assumed but not created. The
nature and embellishment of this inherent assumption is the area where human
imagination and creativeness begins.
Silly twaddle. The assumption of deities is NOT inherent, as the topic
of this thread makes clear. Thus, your attempt to deny that the
assumption of deities is a creative act is absurd.
....
I can only hope
that the strength of our 'good side' can overcome this 'dark
side'
Isn't it a bit simplistic to attribute the endless list of human faults,
failures and perversions to religion as our 'dark side'?
No more simplistic than your blanket condemnation, quoted directly
below. Oh, and BTW, your persecution complex is showing.
It's the human
condition and what it does with whatever is at hand, be it religion or no
religion.
we have which is born of fear.
The which is born of self-centeredness resulting in war, fear, greed, hatred,
abuse, torture, murder, adultery, snobbery, addiction, etc., etc.
And religions, including yours, are the ultimate in egocentricity.
Regards,
Josef
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of
Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in
all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility
in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.
-- James Madison
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Born to be Atheist |
22 Mar 2005 07:16:33 PM |
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On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:44:17 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
Les Hellawell wrote:
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:34:54 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:
In article <MPG.1ca949852f9ae8e4989a2c@206.172.150.13>,
Josef Balluch <josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
A few months back there was a news item that "spirituality" had been
found to have a genetic component. Further studies, involving twins, has
confirmed this finding.
http://tinyurl.com/5z556
Religion is a birth defect? Fortunately many of us were 'cured'.
I see it as the power of the human mind (and possibly 'higher'
animals) to imagine, create and dream. Possibly our greatest, and
most dreadful creation, is that of gods.
Viewed from a strictly human standpoint, the gods can hardly be called the
greatest of human creations. In virtually all cultures of every time and
place, the existence of gods or God is simply assumed but not created.
Where does this assumption come from save the human mind. Certainly
not from evidence for the existence of these gods. Where did they
get the assumption about Odin from, or Zeuss or that's cows were holy?
The
nature and embellishment of this inherent assumption is the area where human
imagination and creativeness begins.
Rather like the atomic bomb, it is demon that cannot be put
back into the bottle once invented and will continue to haunt us
in the dreadful ways we have already seen.
So religion is the enemy?
I see it thus, yes. If religion lets us alone and accepts those who
do not share their beliefs there would be no problem. But they cannot
can they? Moslems want us be Moslems and Christians want us to
be Christian and will not stop pestering us until we join them or
hide away and keep quiet. They seek to impose on us their
moralities and constantly seek to intefere in the lives of others.
Just look how they persecute homosexuals! We do not make religion
our enemy, but the followers of religion do.
Well, we are all more comfortable when we have an
enemy to combat and a scapegoat to blame. Some choose religion as enemy and
scapegoat. Others choose atheism.
That's not how I became atheist. Is that why you became Christian.
Fear of moslems perhaps?
I can only hope
that the strength of our 'good side' can overcome this 'dark
side'
Isn't it a bit simplistic to attribute the endless list of human faults,
failures and perversions to religion as our 'dark side'? It's the human
condition and what it does with whatever is at hand, be it religion or no
religion.
I didn't think I had. I think I argued that religion is a product
not a cause of our 'dark side'. The desire to control others through
fear. The conception of sin and eternal punishment was a brilliant
idea which worked for nearly two thousand years. Only education
and knowledge freeing peoples minds to think for themselves
undermines it. The downfall of the Holy Inquisition helped
There has always been the self-rightuous who think they
aught to have the right to control others and censor what they
can or cannot do and religion is a perfect mechanism for
that.
As it happens I gave you what I thought was a none religious
example of our dark side, the invention and use of an atomic
bomb.( Its biggest use, has been to try and control others
through threat) but then you might know better.
"..the simple truth is that wherever religion gets into society's
driving seat, tyranny results.
- Salman Rushdie
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: Born to be Atheist |
23 Mar 2005 06:43:09 PM |
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Les Hellawell wrote:
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:44:17 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
Les Hellawell wrote:
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:34:54 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:
In article <MPG.1ca949852f9ae8e4989a2c@206.172.150.13>,
Josef Balluch <josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
A few months back there was a news item that "spirituality" had been
found to have a genetic component. Further studies, involving twins, has
confirmed this finding.
http://tinyurl.com/5z556
Religion is a birth defect? Fortunately many of us were 'cured'.
I see it as the power of the human mind (and possibly 'higher'
animals) to imagine, create and dream. Possibly our greatest, and
most dreadful creation, is that of gods.
Viewed from a strictly human standpoint, the gods can hardly be called the
greatest of human creations. In virtually all cultures of every time and
place, the existence of gods or God is simply assumed but not created.
Where does this assumption come from save the human mind.
Why not an instinctive assumption, a provision of the human mind's ultimate Source
in order to begin an I-Thou relationship.
Certainly
not from evidence for the existence of these gods. Where did they
get the assumption about Odin from, or Zeuss or that's cows were holy?
Just one of many examples of embellishment by human imagination and creativeness.
BTW, we still have our sacred cows, do we not? Including science, patriotism,
materialism, progress and so forth.
The
nature and embellishment of this inherent assumption is the area where human
imagination and creativeness begins.
Rather like the atomic bomb, it is demon that cannot be put
back into the bottle once invented and will continue to haunt us
in the dreadful ways we have already seen.
So religion is the enemy?
I see it thus, yes. If religion lets us alone and accepts those who
do not share their beliefs there would be no problem. But they cannot
can they? Moslems want us be Moslems and Christians want us to
be Christian and will not stop pestering us until we join them or
hide away and keep quiet. They seek to impose on us their
moralities and constantly seek to intefere in the lives of others.
Just look how they persecute homosexuals! We do not make religion
our enemy, but the followers of religion do.
You do have a point. I wish the Lions Club and Kiwanis would quite pestering me
to join and be a "good citizen" of this community.
Well, we are all more comfortable when we have an
enemy to combat and a scapegoat to blame. Some choose religion as enemy and
scapegoat. Others choose atheism.
That's not how I became atheist. Is that why you became Christian.
Fear of moslems perhaps?
Was completely ignorant that there was a Moselm religion 58 years ago. >
I can only hope
that the strength of our 'good side' can overcome this 'dark
side'
Isn't it a bit simplistic to attribute the endless list of human faults,
failures and perversions to religion as our 'dark side'? It's the human
condition and what it does with whatever is at hand, be it religion or no
religion.
I didn't think I had. I think I argued that religion is a product
not a cause of our 'dark side'. The desire to control others through
fear. The conception of sin and eternal punishment was a brilliant
idea which worked for nearly two thousand years. Only education
and knowledge freeing peoples minds to think for themselves
undermines it. The downfall of the Holy Inquisition helped
There has always been the self-rightuous who think they
aught to have the right to control others and censor what they
can or cannot do and religion is a perfect mechanism for
that.
Oh, yes, back to the ever popular subject of hell fire on this NG. I've been a
Christian churchgoer all my life and never heard a sermon on the subject of
hell. What I have heard is that the way we live has consequences both here and
hereafter. Heaven and hell is the Biblical language of consequences.
As it happens I gave you what I thought was a none religious
example of our dark side, the invention and use of an atomic
bomb.( Its biggest use, has been to try and control others
through threat) but then you might know better.
Sorry. I've acquired the impression after a few years on alt.atheism that it's
accepted atheist dogma that religion is a major, if not THE major source of all
human woes. And taking Richard Dawkins, "I think a case can be made that faith
is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate" as an educated understatement on the subject.
"..the simple truth is that wherever religion gets into society's
driving seat, tyranny results.
- Salman Rushdie
"the simple truth is that whenever" almost any pack of human beings manage to get
into society's driving seat, tyranny results." E.g., the supporters of Hitler,
Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, Sadaam, etal - none of which espoused religion.
Denny
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: Born to be Atheist |
24 Mar 2005 01:59:27 AM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, dgillesp poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
....
Where does this assumption come from save the human mind.
Why not an instinctive assumption, a provision of the human mind's ultimate Source
in order to begin an I-Thou relationship.
Because the assumption is not instinctive. Are babies born with the
instinct for belief or worship? If they were, then indoctrination would
not be necessary.
....
Regards,
Josef
If the belief in god were natural, there would be no need to teach it.
-- Ernestine L. Rose
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Born to be Atheist |
23 Mar 2005 08:56:15 PM |
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On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:43:09 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
Les Hellawell wrote:
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:44:17 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
Les Hellawell wrote:
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:34:54 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:
In article <MPG.1ca949852f9ae8e4989a2c@206.172.150.13>,
Josef Balluch <josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
A few months back there was a news item that "spirituality" had been
found to have a genetic component. Further studies, involving twins, has
confirmed this finding.
http://tinyurl.com/5z556
Religion is a birth defect? Fortunately many of us were 'cured'.
I see it as the power of the human mind (and possibly 'higher'
animals) to imagine, create and dream. Possibly our greatest, and
most dreadful creation, is that of gods.
Viewed from a strictly human standpoint, the gods can hardly be called the
greatest of human creations. In virtually all cultures of every time and
place, the existence of gods or God is simply assumed but not created.
Where does this assumption come from save the human mind.
Why not an instinctive assumption, a provision of the human mind's ultimate Source
in order to begin an I-Thou relationship.
Religious babble for - 'we thought of it'.
Certainly
not from evidence for the existence of these gods. Where did they
get the assumption about Odin from, or Zeuss or that's cows were holy?
Just one of many examples of embellishment by human imagination and creativeness.
BTW, we still have our sacred cows, do we not? Including science, patriotism,
materialism, progress and so forth.
:-)
The
nature and embellishment of this inherent assumption is the area where human
imagination and creativeness begins.
Rather like the atomic bomb, it is demon that cannot be put
back into the bottle once invented and will continue to haunt us
in the dreadful ways we have already seen.
So religion is the enemy?
I see it thus, yes. If religion lets us alone and accepts those who
do not share their beliefs there would be no problem. But they cannot
can they? Moslems want us be Moslems and Christians want us to
be Christian and will not stop pestering us until we join them or
hide away and keep quiet. They seek to impose on us their
moralities and constantly seek to intefere in the lives of others.
Just look how they persecute homosexuals! We do not make religion
our enemy, but the followers of religion do.
You do have a point. I wish the Lions Club and Kiwanis would quite pestering me
to join and be a "good citizen" of this community.
Well, we are all more comfortable when we have an
enemy to combat and a scapegoat to blame. Some choose religion as enemy and
scapegoat. Others choose atheism.
That's not how I became atheist. Is that why you became Christian.
Fear of moslems perhaps?
Was completely ignorant that there was a Moselm religion 58 years ago. >
I first learned of them when moslems, and Hindus and Sikhs came to
work in the wollen mills in the early sixties. I saw one group in a
battle with another group in the street outside my home. It was short
but brutal. They became bus conducters as well and one day people were
suprised to find then in the bus station concourse on their knees
facing east and 'praying' whilst the busses stood idle. They demanded
to be able to do this five times a day but were turned down. I once
had a conversation with a Arab moslem in Casablanca and asked him
about this and he said five times a day was not a necessity, he did
it once a day.
Not so long ago the Hindus (or is it the Sikhs?) applied for planning
permission so they could perform funerals (on pyres) on the banks of
the Holy River Aire near Apperley Bridge. That one has
entered Yorkshire Lore. Still it is supposed to be "God's own country"
with god a Yorkshireman, as a local vicar reminded us yesterday when
he announced his proposal for a Disney like faith theme park entitled
the Ark. It will have roller coasters and all the usual fun fair stuff
on Biblical themes. We had a good laugh at that one. The cartoon in
tonights paper depicts the attendant at the gate telling people to
form an orderly queue and enter two-by-two. To be fair it is more
likely to pack em in that a thousand Jason Gastriches ever would.
Maybe it will last longer than the multi-million Millennium faith
centre they opened in the centre of Bradford? That didn't even last
the year as nobody went to see it.
I can only hope
that the strength of our 'good side' can overcome this 'dark
side'
Isn't it a bit simplistic to attribute the endless list of human faults,
failures and perversions to religion as our 'dark side'? It's the human
condition and what it does with whatever is at hand, be it religion or no
religion.
I didn't think I had. I think I argued that religion is a product
not a cause of our 'dark side'. The desire to control others through
fear. The conception of sin and eternal punishment was a brilliant
idea which worked for nearly two thousand years. Only education
and knowledge freeing peoples minds to think for themselves
undermines it. The downfall of the Holy Inquisition helped
There has always been the self-rightuous who think they
aught to have the right to control others and censor what they
can or cannot do and religion is a perfect mechanism for
that.
Oh, yes, back to the ever popular subject of hell fire on this NG. I've been a
Christian churchgoer all my life and never heard a sermon on the subject of
hell. What I have heard is that the way we live has consequences both here and
hereafter.
As it happens I gave you what I thought was a none religious
example of our dark side, the invention and use of an atomic
bomb.( Its biggest use, has been to try and control others
through threat) but then you might know better.
Sorry. I've acquired the impression after a few years on alt.atheism that it's
accepted atheist dogma that religion is a major, if not THE major source of all
human woes. And taking Richard Dawkins, "I think a case can be made that faith
is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate" as an educated understatement on the subject.
I agree with Dawkins, "faith is one of.."
"..the simple truth is that wherever religion gets into society's
driving seat, tyranny results.
- Salman Rushdie
"the simple truth is that whenever" almost any pack of human beings manage to get
into society's driving seat, tyranny results." E.g., the supporters of Hitler,
Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, Sadaam, etal - none of which espoused religion.
Can you give me an example where religion has got into the driving
seat and tyranny was not the result?
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.
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